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Old 12-12-2012, 01:46 PM   #136
declansdad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
That's you. You live in Canada where servers earn an hourly wage comparable to similar positions.

In forty states in this country, the legal hourly wage for servers is 1/3 or less the minimum wage (which is still, nationally, almost 25% lower, apparently than Canada's).

I don't agree the original poster's service was terrible. It was mediocre/average. Certainly not outstanding, excellent, great, even good. But it's customary here to tip based on the check. Her check was $33 - they ordered, received, and consumed $33 of food and beverage. In her position, I would have calculated my tip on that amount.

I don't think she's wrong to have tipped $2. I think tipping nothing would have been wrong.

Well we'll have to disagree with the service, in fact I think the restaurant should have comped them the entire check. I have no proeblem if you would tip for something like this, tipping should always be a personal choice.

As for the wages being hire in Canada, I know, no one has disputed that. The point is that it is possible to increase the server's wage, allow people to tip based on service and not as a means of pay (that's the employer's responsibility) and still not price the restaurant out of business.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:22 PM   #137
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Who knows why the tipping structure is the way it is here in the US. Heck, maybe it was started by all of the overseas immigrants starting up businesses, not being able to afford to pay staff, and the staff so desperate for work, agreed to be paid in tips.

Whatever the reason, it is what it is - most folks actually living here are fine with it. When travelling, it is important to find out the laws and cultural rules of the country you are visiting, and act accordingly. I'm sorry people get confused about tipping at a restaurant, for bags, for a taxi, for a haircut, for pizza delivery... Me, I'm pretty comfortable with the whole system, and has been my previous generations, and I will carry on.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:21 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by mjkacmom View Post
Who knows why the tipping structure is the way it is here in the US. Heck, maybe it was started by all of the overseas immigrants starting up businesses, not being able to afford to pay staff, and the staff so desperate for work, agreed to be paid in tips.

Whatever the reason, it is what it is - most folks actually living here are fine with it. When travelling, it is important to find out the laws and cultural rules of the country you are visiting, and act accordingly. I'm sorry people get confused about tipping at a restaurant, for bags, for a taxi, for a haircut, for pizza delivery... Me, I'm pretty comfortable with the whole system, and has been my previous generations, and I will carry on.
I often shake my head at how we always hear about the "ugly American" who travels abroad without any knowledge of the cultural mores of the area visited, but based upon the number of times I've heard foreigners carry on about tipping and refusing to tip, I'm thinking Americans aren't the only ugly travelers who refuse to learn the ways of their destinations.

In the US, tipping is the norm. Just as I covered my shoulders and arms when I went into churches in Italy, I'd expect foreigners to the US to be prepared to tip when they come to the US. If I refuse to cover my shoulders, I'd have been refused entry to those churches (and I saw it happen in Florence and Pisa).

This article from the NYT traces the history of tipping -- it came from Europe and although resisted in the US, with some states passing laws prohibiting tipping, it has persisted.
Quote:
While the precise origin of tipping is uncertain, it is commonly traced to Tudor England, according to Tipping, Kerry Segraves history of the custom. By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the hosts servants. Soon after, customers began tipping in London coffeehouses and other commercial establishments.

After the Civil War, wealthy Americans began traveling to Europe in significant numbers, and they brought the tip home with them to demonstrate their worldliness... As tipping spread  like evil insects and weeds, The New York Times claimed in 1897  many thought it was antithetical to American democratic ideals...

In 1904, the Anti-Tipping Society of America sprang up in Georgia... Leagues of traveling salesmen opposed the tip, as did most labor unions. In 1909, Washington became the first of six states to pass an anti-tipping law. But tipping persisted. The new laws rarely were enforced, and when they were, they did not hold up in court. By 1926, every anti-tipping law had been repealed.

Meanwhile, Europe was rethinking its devotion to the custom. The 1943 Catering Wages Act in Britain established a minimum wage for service employees that helped decrease their reliance on tips. And in 1955, France passed a law requiring its restaurants to add a service charge (service compris) to each bill, a practice that has become the norm for most of the continent. By then, the anti-tipping movement had all but vanished in the United States.

Why it still persists in the US -- because studies show that customers prefer to tip because they believe they get better service.
Quote:
Eighty percent of Americans say they prefer tipping to paying a service fee, according to Zagat Survey. They do so, Leo Crespis surveys first demonstrated, primarily because they believe tipping provides an incentive for good service. But there is little correlation, in fact less than 2 percent...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/ma...anted=all&_r=0

Last edited by Andtototoo; 12-12-2012 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:50 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by declansdad

I would aslo say that sale prices are closely not loosely tied to costs.
I am in complete agreement with the rest of your post, but here is an interesting read on the relationship between sales prices and costs in this industry:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaaru...pping-you-off/

This is quite unrelated to the OP's initial post so I'll stop there.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:53 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Andtototoo View Post
Interesting article! Another quote I found interesting regarding why people tip...
Quote:
largely because it’s expected and diners fear social disapproval.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:37 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Andtototoo View Post
Why it still persists in the US -- because studies show that customers prefer to tip because they believe they get better service.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/ma...anted=all&_r=0
I think a lot of servers like it better with tips because they can actually make a lot more money than if they were paid straight hourly.

One of my waitress friends works breakfast and lunch. She often makes close to $200 on a Saturday shift. I doubt that if she were paid hourly she'd get paid almost $20 per hour, and if she were, what would the price of a breakfast have to be?
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:05 PM   #142
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I think most customers AND servers in the USA like the system the way it is now.
I do not want to be paid minimum wage. I like to be tipped. I do my job well, and most of my customers tip me 20%, if not more.
Most customers like the fact that they have some control over the situation. they can tip less if the service is below par.
there will always be people who will find an excuse to not tip, or under tip. (including "making a statement" about their disapproval of the system).
It is what it is. most restaurant owners, servers and customers like it.

by the way, I happen to think the OPs meal, such as it was, should have been comped. the whole "team" dropped the ball. sure, they weren't hungry anymore, because once the drinks and appetizer settles in, few people are really "hungry". ( the "comped" meal and drinks should not have been included in the server's total for tipping out, taxes, etc. )

I do think it was nice of the OP to tip a little anyway, since the server was short a tip for that whole table. I don't think it should have been a percentage of the drinks, appetizers, though. a couple bucks for her time.

where I work, (an independent restaurant) , they would have been comped the drinks, app., and given a coupon for a further visit.

but tips are here to stay people!!!! and I assure you, if the system changes, I, and all of the decent servers will be in a dif. line of work. NO WAY!!! will I do that job for $8.00 an hour.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:21 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smidgy

but tips are here to stay people!!!! and I assure you, if the system changes, I, and all of the decent servers will be in a dif. line of work. NO WAY!!! will I do that job for $8.00 an hour.
I'm with ya there!!!
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:38 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by scrapquitler View Post
I think a lot of servers like it better with tips because they can actually make a lot more money than if they were paid straight hourly.

One of my waitress friends works breakfast and lunch. She often makes close to $200 on a Saturday shift. I doubt that if she were paid hourly she'd get paid almost $20 per hour, and if she were, what would the price of a breakfast have to be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by smidgy View Post
I think most customers AND servers in the USA like the system the way it is now.
I do not want to be paid minimum wage. I like to be tipped. I do my job well, and most of my customers tip me 20%, if not more.
Most customers like the fact that they have some control over the situation. they can tip less if the service is below par.
there will always be people who will find an excuse to not tip, or under tip. (including "making a statement" about their disapproval of the system).
It is what it is. most restaurant owners, servers and customers like it.

by the way, I happen to think the OPs meal, such as it was, should have been comped. the whole "team" dropped the ball. sure, they weren't hungry anymore, because once the drinks and appetizer settles in, few people are really "hungry". ( the "comped" meal and drinks should not have been included in the server's total for tipping out, taxes, etc. )

I do think it was nice of the OP to tip a little anyway, since the server was short a tip for that whole table. I don't think it should have been a percentage of the drinks, appetizers, though. a couple bucks for her time.

where I work, (an independent restaurant) , they would have been comped the drinks, app., and given a coupon for a further visit.

but tips are here to stay people!!!! and I assure you, if the system changes, I, and all of the decent servers will be in a dif. line of work. NO WAY!!! will I do that job for $8.00 an hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2of2 View Post
I'm with ya there!!!
I'm curious whether any of you read the linked NYT article. It talked about a restaurant the changed to a "service charge" instead of tips...
Quote:
But Chelsea Boyd told me that eliminating tipping had made her work as a waiter at the Linkery more meaningful than any other restaurant job she has had in the previous 10 years. “For the first time, I get to concentrate on the job, and I’m looking at the guests without seeing dollar signs or worried about what anyone else is making,” she says. Under the old system, waiters earned between $25 and $35 an hour, much of which was untaxed. “Now, waiters make about $25 an hour, which is fully taxed,” Boyd says.
I for one am not advocating doing away with tips. I do think EXPECTED tips should be done away with.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:50 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smidgy View Post
I think most customers AND servers in the USA like the system the way it is now.
I do not want to be paid minimum wage. I like to be tipped. I do my job well, and most of my customers tip me 20%, if not more.
Most customers like the fact that they have some control over the situation. they can tip less if the service is below par.
there will always be people who will find an excuse to not tip, or under tip. (including "making a statement" about their disapproval of the system).
It is what it is. most restaurant owners, servers and customers like it.

by the way, I happen to think the OPs meal, such as it was, should have been comped. the whole "team" dropped the ball. sure, they weren't hungry anymore, because once the drinks and appetizer settles in, few people are really "hungry". ( the "comped" meal and drinks should not have been included in the server's total for tipping out, taxes, etc. )

I do think it was nice of the OP to tip a little anyway, since the server was short a tip for that whole table. I don't think it should have been a percentage of the drinks, appetizers, though. a couple bucks for her time.

where I work, (an independent restaurant) , they would have been comped the drinks, app., and given a coupon for a further visit.

but tips are here to stay people!!!! and I assure you, if the system changes, I, and all of the decent servers will be in a dif. line of work. NO WAY!!! will I do that job for $8.00 an hour.
Why do you think if you were paid at a minimum the minimum wage people wouldn't tip?
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:06 PM   #146
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There are different schools of thought on where tipping comes from. Here is another with similarities to the one posted earlier. I thing the last line in the section quoted is interesting.

Quote:
Origins

  • According to economist Ofer H. Azar, tipping may have originated in Ancient Rome, but, Azar notes, the practice more likely developed in medieval Britain and Europe. During the Middle Ages, nobles who were traveling between towns would give money to beggars so the beggars would not attack them. Azar maintains that tipping for service as well as to display one's riches began with this practice.

English Custom

  • Tipping appeared in coffeehouses and pubs in 18th-century England. Signs reading "to insure promptitude" adorned prominently placed containers to encourage patrons to tip in order to hasten service, according to Sharon L. Fullen, who has written about tipping practices in "The Complete Guide to Tips & Gratuities." Customers also started tipping in exchange for an unique service, and tipping became a marker of social status. During this period, household guests also tipped the servants of their hosts; the money given to the servants was known as "vails." At first guests offered vails for good service, but eventually vails became expected.


Read more: The History of Tipping | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6192417_hi...#ixzz2EtSYhe75
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:10 PM   #147
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Why do you think if you were paid at a minimum the minimum wage people wouldn't tip?
not sure what you mean here. I know people who make mimum wage and are great tippers.

and I didn't say I would never work a minimum wage job. I said I wouldn't be a serverfor minimum wage.

and yes, sam, I read the article. I don't agree.
I actually enjoy waitressing (and bartending). I have regular customers. I don't "compete" with the other emplyess, we are a "team". If someone is not my customer tonight, they might be next week. it is to my benefit that ALL customers are happy and return.
I stand by what I said in my previous post. all of it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:52 PM   #148
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not sure what you mean here. I know people who make mimum wage and are great tippers.

and I didn't say I would never work a minimum wage job. I said I wouldn't be a serverfor minimum wage.

and yes, sam, I read the article. I don't agree.
I actually enjoy waitressing (and bartending). I have regular customers. I don't "compete" with the other emplyess, we are a "team". If someone is not my customer tonight, they might be next week. it is to my benefit that ALL customers are happy and return.
I stand by what I said in my previous post. all of it.
Declansdad is asking why you wouldn't still do the job while being paid the "real" minimum wage instead of the pittance you earn hourly now. Your customers would still tip. I was a server for years and not only did I earn minimum wage, one of the restaurants I worked for was actually unionized, so I my hourly wage was higher than minimum wage. I did very, very well in tips.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:28 PM   #149
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faye, you live and work in Canada. not applicable here.

we are talking about the USA. when in Rome and all that good stuff....

I repeat: It the USA changed to a system, where servers received minumum wage, tips were not expected, (and, obviously, the bill for the food and drinks was much higher) I would find different work.

maybe servers who give so-so service would do well. as others previously stated, they wouldn't have to worry about how much the table will tip, therefore, what kind of service they are providing.

I don't worry about that. I already give good service. know most of my customers by name, what they drink, how they like their steak, ask about their family, etc etc.

I don't spend my evening at work stressing about the tips. I enjoy my job and my customers. I do my best to make sure they have an enjoyable dining experience. I often make them laugh, entertain the kids, and yet know which table wants to be "left alone".

I often receive over 20%. yet some nights are slow and my pay is small. soe nights are busy, or we have a party, or it's a holiday (I work every holiday) and I make more.

you get the good with the bad. some nights the other waitress has a great table, some nights I do. we take turns. we help each other out. if she is swamped, I'll make her salads, even if it IS her table, and vice versa. we are a team.

If we ever go to a different system, I will not be in this profession. nor will most of the professional servers. and if you don't want to tip, or want to tip poorly, you can find whatever excuse you want. doesn't matter to us.
(and, as alwaysI am speaking of good service). if you get crappy service, you can tip less. see how that works???

I stand by my earlier post.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:42 AM   #150
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Smidgy, I'm curious... do you give good service (that doesn't sound right ) because you're hoping for a good tip or because you take pride in what you do and want to do a good job? In other words, if you KNEW a table wasn't going to tip, would you still do your best for that table or let your service slide?
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