How do you guys feel about the circus?

[cornflake]

Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I do applaud zoos' efforts to have better/bigger enclosures, but I also feel the educational value of such places far outweighs any downside.

I will say that I support good zoos and Seaworld. They do far more good than harm.

To whom?

I mean I don't feel it's a good educational value to begin with, in any way, but regardless, I have trouble with 'it's ok to keep these animals captive in unnatural conditions because that way kids can see them.'

If it were people, would it be ok? Like if someone took some of the lost tribes people and put them on exhibit in a manufactured habitat meant to mirror the Amazonian jungle in Chicago so that people would be better educated about the need to preserve the area?

[CathrynRose]

I feel the circus is barbaric and outdated.

Numerous, if not all, have been slapped with fines over and over regarding their animal treatment. They're disgusting.

www.RinglingBeatsAnimals.com - and so do the rest of them.

[Ginger Renae]

For those of you interested, I follow a very interesting page on Facebook called the orca project. If you truly want to know about what really goes on at places like Seaworld, take a few minutes to read some of their information. It's truly heartbreaking and I know I will never pay money to a place that treats their animals so poorly.

In that same vein are the places that offer dolphin "experiences". They are cruel and I think if people researched them, they wouldn't patronize them either...at least, I hope they wouldn't. Has anyone else watched "The Cove"?

[CathrynRose]

Originally Posted by Ginger Renae

For those of you interested, I follow a very interesting page on Facebook called the orca project.
In that same vein are the places that offer dolphin "experiences". They are cruel and I think if people researched them, they wouldn't patronize them either...at least, I hope they wouldn't. Has anyone else watched "The Cove"?

Yes - The Cove is an excellent movie. Eye opening and tragic.

From those people, apparently this is the time it normally goes on, and for 4 days now - Blue Water!!!!

[Gumbo4x4]

Originally Posted by cornflake

To whom?

I mean I don't feel it's a good educational value to begin with, in any way, but regardless, I have trouble with 'it's ok to keep these animals captive in unnatural conditions because that way kids can see them.'

If it were people, would it be ok? Like if someone took some of the lost tribes people and put them on exhibit in a manufactured habitat meant to mirror the Amazonian jungle in Chicago so that people would be better educated about the need to preserve the area?

I do not put people and animals on the same level. And even if I did, the fact is without zoos, many species would be gone.

[cornflake]

Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4

I do not put people and animals on the same level. And even if I did, the fact is without zoos, many species would be gone.

People ARE animals. You're a primate (presumably - you may be a typing parrot for all I know).

That's not a fact - were there not zoos, perhaps there'd be more preservation programs working on just that, working on preserves and sanctuaries, etc. Or if there weren't zoos, perhaps people in general would have more respect for other species', or etc.

[FireDancer]

I like the circus and love the zoo. I take my niece and nephew to both and go to numerous events at our local zoo every year. If either are caught abusing animals they should be punished appropriately but an animal and a human are not the same in the eyes of the law and shouldn't be so comparing them is just ridiculous. Yes we are animals in the biological sense of the word but that is where it stops as it should. I really don't care enough to get up in arms about either.

[palmtreegirl]

Not a fan of the circus, but I do like Sea World & Animal Kingdom.

[Ginger Renae]

Originally Posted by FireDancer

I like the circus and love the zoo. I take my niece and nephew to both and go to numerous events at our local zoo every year. If either are caught abusing animals they should be punished appropriately but an animal and a human are not the same in the eyes of the law and shouldn't be so comparing them is just ridiculous. Yes we are animals in the biological sense of the word but that is where it stops as it should. I really don't care enough to get up in arms about either.

It's ridiculous to think that animals and people are not comparable. They may not be on the same "level"' but they do have feelings and emotions. Circuses and Places like Seaworld put the almighty dollar over the welfare of these animals and are routinely filmed abusing the animals in their care. It's vile and shocking how many people don't know or don't care that the animals they go to see "perform" are often beaten or starved into submission.

[FireDancer]

Originally Posted by Ginger Renae

It's ridiculous to think that animals and people are not comparable. They may not be on the same "level"' but they do have feelings and emotions. Circuses and Places like Seaworld put the almighty dollar over the welfare of these animals and are routinely filmed abusing the animals in their care. It's vile and shocking how many people don't know or don't care that the animals they go to see "perform" are often beaten or starved into submission.

Everything is comparable. You can even compare opposites. You can compare a bowl of water to a super-nova if you'd like. I was referring to people asking why we don't put people in cages and say it is ok if we are willing to do it to animals. Well, for the same reason you are allowed to own an animal but not a person. The same reason you are allowed to hunt animals but not people. The same reason you are allowed to eat animals but not people. They aren't the same.

I'm sure there are abusive trainers and zookeepers but one of my friend's father growing up was one of the lead zookeepers at our local zoo and I don't believe for one second he ever harmed an animal. I have never met anyone who loved animals more than him. I have done quite a bit with our local zoo and never witnessed anything that even resembles cruelty.

By all means don't go to see zoos or the circus if you don't want to but I really don't care about the agenda of those who are all up in arms against either. I'll continue to go see them when I want.

[Ginger Renae]

I don't thinking most zoos are inherently cruel. In general, they don't make animals perform by withholding food or beating the animals with a stick. I do think most zoos are outdated and keep many animals cruelly confined. Elephants are meant to walk miles upon miles every day yet zoos stuff them in a couple of acres. It is cruel to keep a polar bear in a small enclosure that requires the animal to be kept on drugs.

[MissManda]

I used to love going to the circus. In fact, it was something I always looked forward too. When I was growing up the circus always came to town right around my birthday and I always asked my parents to take me. Then about 10 years ago, I went to the same circus with my family (parents, sister, nephew). I hadn't been in a few years and there was a new act. They had a cat (a regular house cat) trained to do a high jump. He did other tricks too, but this high jump was the cats big finale. He was supposed to jump down from a crazy tall height (near the top of the tent) and land on a pillow being held by the trainer. I was so afraid for this cat. What if he missed? What if the trainer didn't catch him? I was almost sick to my stomach worried about this cat and I couldn't watch him jump. I couldn't enjoy the rest of the night. I haven't been back to the circus since then.

A few years ago, the circus was in town and I'm not really sure how it happened but one of the elephants got loose. I don't think that she got very far but she did manage to get away from the circus for a brief time. Luckily she wasn't injured and neither was anyone else.

[Gumbo4x4]

Originally Posted by cornflake

People ARE animals. You're a primate (presumably - you may be a typing parrot for all I know).

Fair enough - I don't put us on the same level as the REST of the animals And honestly, how many of us even put all animals on the same level? Do you have any compasion for a mosquito? A tick? A roach? Does the average person react to a dead snake on the road in the same manner as one would after seeing someone's dog get hit? Nope.

Originally Posted by cornflake

That's not a fact - were there not zoos, perhaps there'd be more preservation programs working on just that, working on preserves and sanctuaries, etc. Or if there weren't zoos, perhaps people in general would have more respect for other species', or etc.

Well, seeing none of those things appear to be taking place outside of zoos on any kind of serious level, I doubt that the elimination of zoos would have the positive impact you assert it would. And the few places that are taking BIG steps to preserve animals & habitats are funded almost entirely by hunters who naturally intend to harvest the surplus game. You may not care for the methods (or motives) of these groups, or of zoos, but the results don't lie. These are the ones making a difference. And I for one am not in favor of eliminating the few positive difference makers in the hope that "perhaps" someone will step in to take their place should they be eliminated. I'm not a fan of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

[CathrynRose]

Originally Posted by FireDancer

I like the circus and love the zoo. I take my niece and nephew to both and go to numerous events at our local zoo every year. If either are caught abusing animals they should be punished appropriately but an animal and a human are not the same in the eyes of the law and shouldn't be so comparing them is just ridiculous. Yes we are animals in the biological sense of the word but that is where it stops as it should. I really don't care enough to get up in arms about either.

Of course you do.

They have been caught. Numerous times, over and over. Last year Ringling was slapped with the largest fine in history for abuse - but because of mindsets like yours, and people who pay to go see an Elephant stand on his trunk because it's fun, they continue to abuse their money makers. It's a slap on the wrist.

You and everyone else who "enjoy" the Circus have the power to end that. It's a shame you'd rather see them led by bullhooks to a ring, to pick a dog up in a basket, for 30 flipping years + - than spend it's years in a sanctuary. Sick, really.

Originally Posted by Ginger Renae

It's ridiculous to think that animals and people are not comparable. They may not be on the same "level"' but they do have feelings and emotions. Circuses and Places like Seaworld put the almighty dollar over the welfare of these animals and are routinely filmed abusing the animals in their care. It's vile and shocking how many people don't know or don't care that the animals they go to see "perform" are often beaten or starved into submission.

**Applause**

More people's eyes need to be opened about how horrific these animals are treated. Disgusting.

I don't care if they're not human - they're beautiful, majestic creatures, whom are beaten for the entertainment purposes. That's okay?

[Gumbo4x4]

Originally Posted by CathrynRose

**Applause**

More people's eyes need to be opened about how horrific these animals are treated. Disgusting.

I don't care if they're not human - they're beautiful, majestic creatures, whom are beaten for the entertainment purposes. That's okay?

I don't believe anyone is suggesting animal abuse is "okay" for entertainment purposes. I do however believe everyone's definition of "abuse" is different. And that's not to say that "abuse" by ANYONE's definition NEVER happens. But, while those instances do happen, I'm not of the impression that they're all that common, despite insistence to the contrary here.

Anyone who has any experience with animals knows there are two potential training tools - the carrot & the stick. And even if the people who go into these professions didn't love animals, it's pretty well established that the carrot is a more effective trainer than the stick in MOST instances. From a strictly business POV, abusing the animals is a poor business practice.