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Old 10-10-2012, 09:28 AM   #31
havoc315
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Originally Posted by wbeem View Post
You're right that giving it away isn't a legal deterrent. Let's just say that it seemed less likely that they would have taken action against me for a free eBook compared to selling it.

Disney has shut down a number of photographers who sell their photos of Disney parks online, but they haven't taken any action against photos on fan sites or park blogs. One of their primary concerns is that people would be confused as to whether these items for sale were affiliated with Disney.

As you said, big business rules even if the law isn't really against you. They could throw complaints against you about trademark violations that would become very numerous with almost any photograph. One photo could have trademark violations for Cinderella Castle, hidden Mickey's, characters on balloons, characters in the park, and perhaps other items I haven't considered. Best not to fight such a battle without deep pockets.
Practice versus the actual law. Trademark protection is very thin, and in theory, trademark owners are not supposed to be able to use their trademark protection to stifle free speech. (Theory does not always equate with practice). A trademark is only supposed to be used to prevent consumer protection.

There are lots of books that use Disney photographs, without any license from Disney. For example, the Unofficial Guides to Disney utilize lots of photographs. (I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if they paid Disney any license which would really undermine their unofficial status).

On the other hand, a book of "Disney photography" really can get into much grayer area of intellectual property. If its some sort of history book, behind the scenes book, etc --- Then you really are on the much safer side of "fair use" -- as you are essentially transforming the intellectual property. You're not merely capitalizing on someone else's creation, but adding your own work on top of it. But if you work is merely capitalizing on the creation of someone else, then there is a much better argument that it could be infringement.
The infringement could be viewed as 2 types:
Actual copying of a copyrighted work. For example, if you videotaped Mickey's Philharmagic and then tried to sell copies of it-- That would be unquestionably copyright infringement.
Trademark infringement -- Here, there must be a danger of consumer confusion. So if you published a book of "Princess Stories" -- And you put a picture of Cinderella's Castle on the front of the book, and Tinkerbell on the back of the book, Disney could argue you are infringing on their trademarks, and leading consumers to believe that this is a Disney product when its not.

Ahhhh.... I miss copyright law. Unfortunately, all the Intellectual property firms wanted me to prosecute biochemical patents, and I had no interest in that.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:37 AM   #32
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Practice versus the actual law. Trademark protection is very thin, and in theory, trademark owners are not supposed to be able to use their trademark protection to stifle free speech. (Theory does not always equate with practice). A trademark is only supposed to be used to prevent consumer protection.

There are lots of books that use Disney photographs, without any license from Disney. For example, the Unofficial Guides to Disney utilize lots of photographs. (I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if they paid Disney any license which would really undermine their unofficial status).

On the other hand, a book of "Disney photography" really can get into much grayer area of intellectual property. If its some sort of history book, behind the scenes book, etc --- Then you really are on the much safer side of "fair use" -- as you are essentially transforming the intellectual property. You're not merely capitalizing on someone else's creation, but adding your own work on top of it. But if you work is merely capitalizing on the creation of someone else, then there is a much better argument that it could be infringement.
The infringement could be viewed as 2 types:
Actual copying of a copyrighted work. For example, if you videotaped Mickey's Philharmagic and then tried to sell copies of it-- That would be unquestionably copyright infringement.
Trademark infringement -- Here, there must be a danger of consumer confusion. So if you published a book of "Princess Stories" -- And you put a picture of Cinderella's Castle on the front of the book, and Tinkerbell on the back of the book, Disney could argue you are infringing on their trademarks, and leading consumers to believe that this is a Disney product when its not.

Ahhhh.... I miss copyright law. Unfortunately, all the Intellectual property firms wanted me to prosecute biochemical patents, and I had no interest in that.

I can't believe Disney let's the dirt baggy fake Mickey Mouse's that patrol Times Square NYC to exist!

Slightly misshaped head, raggedly costumes. Ugh.....
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:10 PM   #33
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Practice versus the actual law. Trademark protection is very thin, and in theory, trademark owners are not supposed to be able to use their trademark protection to stifle free speech. (Theory does not always equate with practice). A trademark is only supposed to be used to prevent consumer protection.

There are lots of books that use Disney photographs, without any license from Disney. For example, the Unofficial Guides to Disney utilize lots of photographs. (I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if they paid Disney any license which would really undermine their unofficial status).

On the other hand, a book of "Disney photography" really can get into much grayer area of intellectual property. If its some sort of history book, behind the scenes book, etc --- Then you really are on the much safer side of "fair use" -- as you are essentially transforming the intellectual property. You're not merely capitalizing on someone else's creation, but adding your own work on top of it. But if you work is merely capitalizing on the creation of someone else, then there is a much better argument that it could be infringement.
The infringement could be viewed as 2 types:
Actual copying of a copyrighted work. For example, if you videotaped Mickey's Philharmagic and then tried to sell copies of it-- That would be unquestionably copyright infringement.
Trademark infringement -- Here, there must be a danger of consumer confusion. So if you published a book of "Princess Stories" -- And you put a picture of Cinderella's Castle on the front of the book, and Tinkerbell on the back of the book, Disney could argue you are infringing on their trademarks, and leading consumers to believe that this is a Disney product when its not.

Ahhhh.... I miss copyright law. Unfortunately, all the Intellectual property firms wanted me to prosecute biochemical patents, and I had no interest in that.
You've captured the essence of my dilemma. From observing how Disney reacted to other photographers and looking at my ebook, not to mention my conversations with their media relations folks, I decided to play it safe and not sell the ebook.

In some ways, that worked along with my planning. I always intended to have an ebook to give away for free. This wasn't the one I had in mind, but it still worked out. The other benefit for me was to change my thought process about the market I wanted to reach.

As you say, theory does not always equate with practice. I erred on the side of caution in this one case and decided it wasn't worth the risk to test it. It's not like an ebook would have made me rich, so the decision was rather simple.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:41 PM   #34
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Still providing bad information, aren't you? Have you ever read the Terms of Service for Facebook? You agreed to provide them a license to use your content when you accepted those terms. That was necessary for them to provide a feature that shares your content. It isn't copyright infringement when you grant a usage license.



You aren't granting the public anything. You grant the service usage by accepting the Terms of Service, and those usage rights vary by service.
You're contradicting yourself a bit with those two statements. Also, perhaps you should read the facebook EULA. And the EULA for pretty much any other social media site or image hosting service. And there's the implied usage you grant by uploading that allows people to hyperlink to your work. The term de jure comes to mind here, but I'm a photographer and wouldn't even pretend to be a legal expert.

But really, people should talk to an attorney if they have copyright concerns. Anyone can pretend to be a legal expert on a message board, get solid information specific to your situation from a reputable source. And follow the rule don't post what you don't want stolen.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:06 PM   #35
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As for conversations with lawyers, bear something in mind. They often disagree. That's natural, so don't expect to get the last word from any single attorney. Chances are excellent there's another one who could point out the issue in another light.
If you ask 10 lawyers the same question, chances are you'll get 10 different answers--especially when the matters involved are unsettled, jurisdictional, or fact-specific.

That said, I generally agree with most of what havoc has written in this thread. However, the only IP law I ever practice is Trademark, and that's only on rare occasion.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:27 PM   #36
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....
By the way, if you're a photographer, why is it that you never post any photos? Perhaps I've missed the photos you share here. Could you please let me know which threads you generally post your photos, or do you just talk about photography without every putting it to practice?
.....
Just because one chooses not to post photos on a public board doesnt mean they are not out taking photos. I take tons of photos myself. Though I rarely post any here. One reason is, yes, like the original poster, I don't want a photo I took time and effort to create to just start showing up all over the place. That's my choice.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:47 PM   #37
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Just because one chooses not to post photos on a public board doesnt mean they are not out taking photos. I take tons of photos myself. Though I rarely post any here. One reason is, yes, like the original poster, I don't want a photo I took time and effort to create to just start showing up all over the place. That's my choice.
I agree. On the other hand, it's not unreasonable to expect to see the photos of someone who identifies his or her self as a photographer - particularly if someone adamantly tries to represent his or her self as an authority.

Otherwise, it's just another case of "Big hat, no cattle."
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:57 PM   #38
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I agree. On the other hand, it's not unreasonable to expect to see the photos of someone who identifies his or her self as a photographer - particularly if someone adamantly tries to represent his or her self as an authority.

Otherwise, it's just another case of "Big hat, no cattle."
You could try the link in her signature.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:12 PM   #39
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You could try the link in her signature.
I have in the past. Those seem to be personal snapshots, which is why I asked the question of her.

Folks, this thread has taken a turn outside of the topic. I just asked a question and I don't want to turn the thread into a hunt for someone else's photos or a debate on whether it's necessary to post photos here. If we want to discuss that, perhaps we should create a different thread on the subject.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:15 PM   #40
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Yep. That link goes to my personal snapshots. What I share with friends and family. And the reason that's pretty much all you'll find actually goes back to the original topic of this thread. Never post anything online you don't want stolen. I learned that lesson the hard way about ten years ago when someone entered my work into an online contest and won.

I have never claimed to be an expert, in fact I'm the first to say I'm not (I guess you've selectively ignored that I have said that on more than one occasion, as you have so many things that have been posted wbeem). If you feel the need to seek me out and see what I do outside of my family snapshots then come for a visit. I'd love to share the cyanotype/vandyke project I'm working on. I'm also getting into making platinum prints from 4x5 negatives and it's pretty cool though quite expensive for the process. But if you want me to get defensive because you think you know more... you win. Your lens is bigger. Did that help your ego?

I do agree with one thing... Let's get back to actually having a discussion now. Which we'd have been doing if you could have actually taken two seconds to stop and think that maybe not everyone who disagrees with you is insulting you or being condescending to you or even saying you're wrong. Maybe they're just discussing things. On a discussion board. I know it's a hard concept to grasp. We're not all going to agree. The world would be awfully boring if we did.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #41
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I agree with what's been said. I think most people are clueless about it, and would guess that's the case with your friend. I put the right click protection on all of my SmugMug pics when I upload, so they are not downloadable (short of having my actual password or superior technology skills as I guess there's a way). I like this feature since I take a lot of sports pics and other parents can know pics of their kids won't be all over the internet from me. (I explain this ahead of time and give them an "out" if they don't want pics of their kids posted on SM.) A watermark is helpful, too. Any "layers" you can put on your pics will help. Regardless, you do own the copyright to your pics and can make her take them down or charge her for using them. I think a simple conversation would have gone a long way on her part, though. I would not be happy in the situation you've described. The other day I got an email from SmugMug that someone I'd given a link to a long time ago just ordered some pics from me. My only regret since getting the Pro account now is not going back in and setting the price of my pics. I've got some work to do there. Great letter above, btw.
Speaking of clueless, I looked all over the privacy options on Smugmug and couldn't find the option to disable saving! Is that a pro perk or something that can be done on the regular $40 account? I'd love to be able to do that.

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I honestly don't understand the problem. I would do just about anything for my friends and if my picture of an average tree helped her in any way I would let her use it. No questions asked. No payment needed. You don't even need to put my name on it. But hey on the waaaay off chance one of her clients is blown away by my picture if she were to say she was the one who snapped the picture THEN I would be upset.
It wasn't a question of letting her. If she had asked I would have been excited to let her use it. I never wanted payment (I'm not sure where anyone got that idea from- payment has been mentioned a few times on replies) all I wanted was some sort of recognition that she knew she wasn't just borrowing a shirt I bought from Kohls. She was "borrowing" something that meant a lot to me and that I put some work and effort into.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:55 PM   #42
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Speaking of clueless, I looked all over the privacy options on Smugmug and couldn't find the option to disable saving! Is that a pro perk or something that can be done on the regular $40 account? I'd love to be able to do that.



It wasn't a question of letting her. If she had asked I would have been excited to let her use it. I never wanted payment (I'm not sure where anyone got that idea from- payment has been mentioned a few times on replies) all I wanted was some sort of recognition that she knew she wasn't just borrowing a shirt I bought from Kohls. She was "borrowing" something that meant a lot to me and that I put some work and effort into.
Yeah. I wish my DH would quit pooping in the toilet I put work and effort into cleaning but I'm not going to hold my breath......or will I?
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:14 PM   #43
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Wow, you certainly have a snide and condescending side to you. You know, I didn't attack you at all before you started with your insults to me. Whatever bug you have up your butt, please get over it.
LOL... no bugs here. Just a thong.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:02 PM   #44
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:08 PM   #45
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Speaking of clueless, I looked all over the privacy options on Smugmug and couldn't find the option to disable saving! Is that a pro perk or something that can be done on the regular $40 account? I'd love to be able to do that.



It wasn't a question of letting her. If she had asked I would have been excited to let her use it. I never wanted payment (I'm not sure where anyone got that idea from- payment has been mentioned a few times on replies) all I wanted was some sort of recognition that she knew she wasn't just borrowing a shirt I bought from Kohls. She was "borrowing" something that meant a lot to me and that I put some work and effort into.
Karen, right-click disabling isn't available at the basic ($40) level. You have to have at least the power ($60) level for it.

Let us know how things turn out.
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