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Old 10-07-2012, 06:05 PM   #31
Tonka's Skipper
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Originally Posted by CPT Tripss View Post
It seems somewhat disingenuous to complain about some of us saying there are more bad apples in the ranks of the airport secuurity screeners than TSA/DHS leadership acknowledges. That's what is being said, not aspersions about the entire group. After all anyone who wants to travel on a commercial airplane is treated as a terrorist until a government official decides they are not.

We all know that there are dishonest airport secuurity screeners who have not been caught. The only real question is how many? Why don't the airport security screeners have their bags searched when they are leaving the checkpoint?

And it's plain wrong to blame any passenger for the dishonesty of any airport security screener. I am certain that you know that there are lots of times when TSA employees separate travellers from their belongings during the security search process. You put your stuff on the belt and an airport security screener prevents or delays you from passing through. If you are going to get a patdown (whether voluntary or involuntary) you will be told to wait in a specific spot. A good portion of the security checkpoints are set up so that you can not see you property from where you are forced wait. And guess what? If you complain about not seeing your stuff, you a likely to get hassled and further delayed.
Yet you have in the past....done that over and over........called them all names...


While I agree its likely there are some who did not get caught stealing...........I don't and you can't know there are anymore!

Funny, in all the Airports I have been in, the few times I have been asked to wait, the tray with my stuff is brought over to a table near where I was standing.....Even if they didn't, I could see it just beyond the X ray.

The point is even using your figures.....1% of a 34,000 person agency is not a big number of people!......try looking at bae handlers who have been caught..police forces..........people working in OFFICES, BUSINESSES.......I dont have figiures.but Would bet is often more then 1% having found to steal.

The bottom line is this is the best way to keep the skies safe for now............if anyone doesn like it....please don't fly, get together with other thiniing your way and charter a plane........because I won't risk my families safety for a few noisy bloggers.!

ALL

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Old 10-07-2012, 06:19 PM   #32
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According to the TSA blog, 381 of their employees have been terminated for theft. They have not published how many more have resigned rather than be terminated.
Terminated. Had their employment ended. It doesn't matter which side terminated the relationship. And it's not the public's business why or how any employee was parted from any position of government employment - no matter what you think. Sure, sometimes it makes the news.

Not excusing the still relatively few former TSA employees who are no longer in that position due to theft - which, it appears, is somehow now the topic here , as opposed to ANY other reason a person may have been separated from the TSA - but theft from luggage and cargo at airports long predates the existence of the TSA.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:01 PM   #33
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What do they do if your kid is throwing a tantrum?
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:05 PM   #34
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Like other reasonable adults, they probably expect you the parent to get your child under control. While you do that, the rest of the flying public likely expects you and your tantrumming child to step aside.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:03 AM   #35
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Like other reasonable adults, they probably expect you the parent to get your child under control. While you do that, the rest of the flying public likely expects you and your tantrumming child to step aside.
Which you couldn't do if you aren't allowed to move.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:07 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by CPT Tripss View Post
It seems somewhat disingenuous to complain about some of us saying there are more bad apples in the ranks of the airport secuurity screeners than TSA/DHS leadership acknowledges. That's what is being said, not aspersions about the entire group. After all anyone who wants to travel on a commercial airplane is treated as a terrorist until a government official decides they are not.

We all know that there are dishonest airport secuurity screeners who have not been caught. The only real question is how many? Why don't the airport security screeners have their bags searched when they are leaving the checkpoint?

And it's plain wrong to blame any passenger for the dishonesty of any airport security screener. I am certain that you know that there are lots of times when TSA employees separate travellers from their belongings during the security search process. You put your stuff on the belt and an airport security screener prevents or delays you from passing through. If you are going to get a patdown (whether voluntary or involuntary) you will be told to wait in a specific spot. A good portion of the security checkpoints are set up so that you can not see you property from where you are forced wait. And guess what? If you complain about not seeing your stuff, you a likeely to get hassled and further delayed.
I have yet to feel like a terrorist when flying. I guess it's all about perception. I know what I'm doing and have never had any issue. And that woman I watched?? No, she could not see her belongings. But she made a choice to sent her bag through without her being there. She wasn't told to put it on the belt, and she wasn't told to step aside for addtl screening. She put the bag on the belt, stood there for quite awhile, waiting. I got behind her and said 'are you in line?', 'No...I don't want to go through the scanner, so you go ahead. Someone needs to search me.' So, who knows what happened to her bag. Another passenger could very well have snatched it. It amazes me to see how people stand there, at the point where bags come out of the scanner and then start putting their shoes on, their belts on...clogging up the works, so other people can't get through to get their belongings. It would have been very easy, on that day, to take someone else's bag. I wish the TSA people would tell passengers to move away from the belt.

I know there are 'bad apples' in the bunch. I just take issue with some here saying the number of bad apples is huge. No one knows that. And yes, I'm sure there are many that haven't been caught yet. And yes, I'm pretty sure that this type employment may possibly (probably is more likely) attract those with thievery on their minds. And that's sad. So yeah, the TSA as a whole, could probably do more to weed out these people. And yes, they should be doing bag checks on TSA employees as they leave...both those that are working the public security areas as well as the behind the scenes baggage security areas.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:28 AM   #37
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Which you couldn't do if you aren't allowed to move.
Sorry, Sam - I forgot the thread topic. This page appeared to have moved it to TSA thievery for no apparent reason - so can you blame me for losing track?
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:19 PM   #38
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I was refering to people who keep repeating the same lie over and over becuase people will start to beleive it!.just what you do here over and over.....

Checking the papers becuase a person, by their own request,is wanting to fly is not the Nazis, or dictatorship or communist regeme checking papers on every street corner..please read your history

Committees?.......no...no my dear....there was only 1 actual committee.........lots of *WE will be having hearing*..but only 1 had them and that was 2 meetings that TSDA explained there rules and resons and no changes were reqiured by the committee.....not even try at changing anything.

What you are refering to was a meeting to set up the agenda for the hearing.......TSA had some reqiurements which was agreed to.


Just your usual congressal thiefs and crooks looking for votes over a none issue!

AKK
First steps onto the slippery slope are usually small ones. Have you read Martin Niemöller?

As far as congrssional hearings go . . . There have been significantly more than ONE hearing on potential misconduct by TSA employees or otherwise critical of the methods employed by the agency. At least four in the recent past popped up on the first page of a web search.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:31 PM   #39
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I have yet to feel like a terrorist when flying. I guess it's all about perception. I know what I'm doing and have never had any issue. And that woman I watched?? No, she could not see her belongings. But she made a choice to sent her bag through without her being there. She wasn't told to put it on the belt, and she wasn't told to step aside for addtl screening. She put the bag on the belt, stood there for quite awhile, waiting. I got behind her and said 'are you in line?', 'No...I don't want to go through the scanner, so you go ahead. Someone needs to search me.' So, who knows what happened to her bag. Another passenger could very well have snatched it. It amazes me to see how people stand there, at the point where bags come out of the scanner and then start putting their shoes on, their belts on...clogging up the works, so other people can't get through to get their belongings. It would have been very easy, on that day, to take someone else's bag. I wish the TSA people would tell passengers to move away from the belt.

I know there are 'bad apples' in the bunch. I just take issue with some here saying the number of bad apples is huge. No one knows that. And yes, I'm sure there are many that haven't been caught yet. And yes, I'm pretty sure that this type employment may possibly (probably is more likely) attract those with thievery on their minds. And that's sad. So yeah, the TSA as a whole, could probably do more to weed out these people. And yes, they should be doing bag checks on TSA employees as they leave...both those that are working the public security areas as well as the behind the scenes baggage security areas.
Well, to me being subjected to a body search (either by a machine or another person), having my belongings searched and being require to prove my identity is anything but a presumption of innocence. And a desire to use commercial air travel is certainly not a reasonable cause to trigger these intrusions. Whether the people doing these things are "nice, "polite," or "professional." Is really beside the point. They are loud, "impolite," or otherwise exhibit a prison guard like demeanor, then they only add to the criticism.

You know, if we kept our shoes and belts on, a lot of your issue would go away. Sometimes I really wish that DHS would hire Temple Grandin to redesign their security checkpoints . . .
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:03 PM   #40
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Well, to me being subjected to a body search (either by a machine or another person), having my belongings searched and being require to prove my identity is anything but a presumption of innocence. And a desire to use commercial air travel is certainly not a reasonable cause to trigger these intrusions. Whether the people doing these things are "nice, "polite," or "professional." Is really beside the point. They are loud, "impolite," or otherwise exhibit a prison guard like demeanor, then they only add to the criticism.

You know, if we kept our shoes and belts on, a lot of your issue would go away. Sometimes I really wish that DHS would hire Temple Grandin to redesign their security checkpoints . . .
There you go again..............calling them rude and impolite......and a nasty prizon guard type......in fact the only thing you have not called them..this time.... is dumb............your credibillity is as always, is shot to hell.

BYW...........in todays world these things are nessary and your use of air travel certianly DOES WARRENT there us!..You see I pass the site of the twin towers 2 or more times a month.....I don't need reminding..........however you seem too!

The bottom line is ..........the system is in place and it is going to stay.........improve with time ??....of course.......but it will do its best to keep me and my family safe.

To be frank.I really don't care anymore if your not liking the seciurity or not.

AKK
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:14 PM   #41
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First steps onto the slippery slope are usually small ones. Have you read Martin Niemöller?

As far as congrssional hearings go . . . There have been significantly more than ONE hearing on potential misconduct by TSA employees or otherwise critical of the methods employed by the agency. At least four in the recent past popped up on the first page of a web search.
Better go back and do some reading.those was blogs and comgress people pulling out press releases.................over and over.............there is as I said 1 sub committee and TSA was invited and attended 2, ok maybe 3 or 4 meeting.

Years of talk.......any law changes???........any reqiurements for chanre to the TSA from comgress.*NO*.

BYE.I see now it was not 381 terminations from the TSA for thief,just terminations, no reason given..........seems your credibility takes another shot! In this case you lied outright.

AKK
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:21 PM   #42
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This is an interesting statement. What are your credentials, AKK?

35 years in the martitime industry.the last 10 or so involved with all transportation secruity.

It seems the NY Times is a little more than an isolated blog who is out to start trouble. Since they are included, as well as other respected publications, in reporting TSA behaviors, I would say these sort of generalized statements fail to make your case, AKK.

The times is far from a A rated paper any more when you count the number of reporters who have admited making up stories and facts and been fired or criminally charged. Granted they still have the name and are well read in the cities.but not much more then that. Enough detail?
I never said there weren't a few bad apples/incidents is 34,000 in the tsa alone, but what a find interested the blogs and the Times never come back and admit it when the real fact do come out and shows there *TAKE* on the problem was reproted wrong!. Beleive me most american dont beleive the main stream press for much of anything anymore.,

There are more than a few "bad apples".

Sorry please provide your proof now? .....I can count about 14 stories repeorted this year ........not alot.and that doesnt count the ones where the agents were shown to have acted correctly after a investigation.........Only a few.*bad Apples*

Personal note:
I can understand the reason for the "freeze drill", as the TSA has let people through with items that should have been caught, and it is easier to inconvenience those in the area instead of rescreening the whole airport. That said, I think they take it way too seriously. Practice is to ingrain immediate actions, so they are performed without thought, but forcing someone not to "fidget" is just plain silly.

I I have to agree on this one.to try and make peole freze is a bit over the top.this is the first I have hread of this.I intend to read up a bit

In addition, I have come to realize that the role of the TSA is to provide the appearance of security, with the ancillary benefit of being able to be more vigilant to those security measures required before September 2001. Actually delivering security against terrorist attack would require different processes and procedures, which are well documented and tested in other parts of the world, but are not the focus of the TSA.

and YOUR credentials to say that? What happens directly with the public is a very small part of the overall secruity role of the TSA and other groups.....

There has not been a terrorist attack on an airline originating from the United States since September 2001; however, many of the more draconian requirements have been mandated years after the initial engagement. In addition, these enhanced requirements were not based on any actionable intelligence or imminent threat to airline safety; rather, they were implemented due to actions of terrorists on aircraft, which originated outside of our nation. To that end and based on the lack of evidence suggesting these enhancements and the TSA are at all effective, it stands to reason that we should be relaxing security and instead focusing our money and attention toward those efforts that would be effective in stemming the tide of a future terrorist attack.

again your proof?.credentials to say that?........Maybe just maybe the fact we have the secruity we have may have forcesd the terroriest to not weven try and take down a plane. Not to mention you have no idea if there has been any planned attacks or if TSA, FBI, CIA etc have stopped it early on...How ever I will tell you are far off the mark in this statement.

These are my thoughts. I don't consider myself anti-security or anti-TSA, but the empirical evidence of the agency's lack of
You are entitled to have your opinion.
Thanks for the reply, AKK. I really don't have any credentials, to speak of publicly, so these are merely my thoughts and position based on observation. As mentioned, I'm not anti-TSA, per se, as I agree the mere presence of security tends to deter some nefarious activity by those seeking to do us harm. In fact, I enjoy the professionalism of all the TSA agents I've encountered, thus far. Even if I felt they were cranky or plain not nice, they were very professional in nature. They are paid low wage and assigned a high degree of responsibility, so I have no beef with the agents, themselves.

I guess the concern I have is in regards to the reason behind the policies and procedures, as well as the consistency of their application. Underlying is the concept that government is reactive in nature. They need to be in most cases, as to do otherwise would be an infringement on our freedoms.

To that end, many of the more "tiresome" requirements (3-1-1 bags, no shoes, super sensitive metal detection, full body scans, etc) are in direct response to terrorist activities occurring on aircraft over U.S. cities, which originated in other nations (the shoe bomber, for instance). They are not due to a lack of vigilance by our own security and law enforcement agencies, and I perceive the restrictions more as the mandates by politicians needed to appear proactive instead of providing any real security. Of course, the line TSA agents and supervisors may question the zaniness of a mandate; while, they carry out their duties, professionally as always.

I think this Freeze Drill is a reaction to a couple incidents, where people have made it through security with unsearched bags or contraband (for instance a woman that made it past security with a gun: http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...light/606403/1). It could be effective, and I could understand the need for agents to make everyone "freeze" in place (not move) during a real breach, but someone should announce it as a drill, and permit greater flexibility during such tests, so a boarding is not missed or a person wets themselves who "really needed to visit the facilities" .

As for example as to why I personally have the opinion that the TSA is mainly a perceived security instead of an actual one:

Homeless man causes breach in San Diego:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...ate&id=8681893

Mom gets $3.99 refund on peanut butter (the point isn't the refund, rather that the agent didn't confiscate the jelly, too, which to me is more jell-like
http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-peanut-butter

Blogger posts about TSA encounter:
http://crankyflier.com/2012/09/27/ri...sy-of-the-tsa/
(this one gets me a bit, since if he was a real terrorist, he could have easily chosen several paths to get through security with illicit material. This was just for the agents to CYA themselves. While AKK may not agree, since it is a blogger, it is a personal account of activity, and since the person isn't anti-TSA, it has a bit of credence.)

In the end, I agree that a perceived increase in security has a deterrent effect that is valuable, and TSA agents are very professional. I just wish we could have more consistency (between agents in the same airport and among all airports) and maybe stop some of the more inconvenient aspects that really were initiated as a reaction to activities outside of our nation's security bubble.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:26 PM   #43
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First steps onto the slippery slope are usually small ones. Have you read Martin Niemöller?

As far as congrssional hearings go . . . There have been significantly more than ONE hearing on potential misconduct by TSA employees or otherwise critical of the methods employed by the agency. At least four in the recent past popped up on the first page of a web search.



Better go back and do some reading .Those were blogs and congress people putting out press releases.................over and over.............there is as I said 1 sub committee and TSA was invited and attended 2, ok maybe 3 or 4 meetings.

Years of talk(do you really think the congress people were doing anything else but getting press time and votes?).......any law changes???........any reqiurements for change to the TSA from congress........*NO*.

BYW....I see now it was not 381 terminations from the TSA for thief, just terminations, no reason given..........seems your credibility takes another shot! In this case you lied outright.

AKK

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Old 10-08-2012, 01:42 PM   #44
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Thanks for the reply, AKK. I really don't have any credentials, to speak of publicly, so these are merely my thoughts and position based on observation. As mentioned, I'm not anti-TSA, per se, as I agree the mere presence of security tends to deter some nefarious activity by those seeking to do us harm. In fact, I enjoy the professionalism of all the TSA agents I've encountered, thus far. Even if I felt they were cranky or plain not nice, they were very professional in nature. They are paid low wage and assigned a high degree of responsibility, so I have no beef with the agents, themselves.

I guess the concern I have is in regards to the reason behind the policies and procedures, as well as the consistency of their application. Underlying is the concept that government is reactive in nature. They need to be in most cases, as to do otherwise would be an infringement on our freedoms.

To that end, many of the more "tiresome" requirements (3-1-1 bags, no shoes, super sensitive metal detection, full body scans, etc) are in direct response to terrorist activities occurring on aircraft over U.S. cities, which originated in other nations (the show bomber, for instance). They are not due to a lack of vigilance by our own security and law enforcement agencies, and I perceive the restrictions more as the mandates by politicians needed to appear proactive instead of providing any real security. Of course, the line TSA agents and supervisors may question the zaniness of a mandate; while, they carry out their duties, professionally as always.

I think this Freeze Drill is a reaction to a couple incidents, where people have made it through security with unsearched bags or contraband (for instance a woman that made it past security with a gun: http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...light/606403/1). It could be effective, and I could understand the need for agents to make everyone "freeze" in place (not move) during a real breach, but someone should announce it as a drill, and permit greater flexibility during such tests, so a boarding is not missed or a person wets themselves who "really needed to visit the facilities" .

As for example as to why I personally have the opinion that the TSA is mainly a perceived security instead of an actual one:

Homeless man causes breach in San Diego:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...ate&id=8681893

Mom gets $3.99 refund on peanut butter (the point isn't the refund, rather that the agent didn't confiscate the jelly, too, which to me is more jell-like
http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-peanut-butter

Blogger posts about TSA encounter:
http://crankyflier.com/2012/09/27/ri...sy-of-the-tsa/
(this one gets me a bit, since if he was a real terrorist, he could have easily chosen several paths to get through security with illicit material. This was just for the agents to CYA themselves. While AKK may not agree, since it is a blogger, it is a personal account of activity, and since the person isn't anti-TSA, it has a bit of credence.)

In the end, I agree that a perceived increase in security has a deterrent effect that is valuable, and TSA agents are very professional. I just wish we could stop some of the more inconvenient aspects that really were initiated as a reaction to activities outside of our nation's security bubble.


Hi there Greysword,

I agree with alot of what you have said. But I can point out that a few years ago, I don't remember which year, but TSA found and stopped 254people with handguns from getting onboard planes.....there is still a very real threat in domestic flights. I fully agree the tSA is not perfect and won't get or stop every restricted or dangerous item from getting on a plane. They are NOT PERFECT. I do object strongly to the people (not you) that go on and on whenever something is missed or a mistake made by TSA, calling the folks trying to do their jobs in a professional, honest and effective way!

I do think the TSA like many agencies, companys, military can get bogged down in rules and forget sometimes what the rules are trying to do.

We deal with it in handling ships and the maritime terminals. Sometimes you have to go though 2....3 or even 4 check/seciurty points before you can get onboard the vessels.

I agree this freeze drill needs more work. The TSA can't expect people to fully understand if they dont know about what the drill is intended to do (or the actual emergency) and if they are not aware of what is expected of them. Honestly..you can't expect people to stand or sit for that matter frozen! Some people can't phyically do it due to health issues.

Lastly, yes your right, some things were a knee jerk reaction, but there has also been changes to lessen the inconvenient things. The problem is that the days of just walking on a plane like in the 60's and 70's is never coming back until a screening machine is developed that will do a total and 100% safe scan and still give the people the feeling of safety and not risking percieved possible injury or lack of privacy.

Right now that is a big order to fill, so we have to make do with what is available .

I miss the days when I was heading from a ship to the planes and I could just run right to the gate, ticket in hand and walk on the plane!

The good ole Days!


AKK

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Old 10-08-2012, 03:42 PM   #45
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Hi there Greysword,

I agree with alot of what you have said. But I can point out that a few years ago, I don't remember which year, but TSA found and stopped 254people with handguns from getting onboard planes.....there is still a very real threat in domestic flights.
As I mentioned in my first post of the thread, the TSA has enhanced the effectiveness of the normal security screening process in place before September 2011. They are able to catch many more potential threats just due to Americans not thinking. This is a secondary mandate, which seems to be proven effective.

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I do think the TSA like many agencies, companys, military can get bogged down in rules and forget sometimes what the rules are trying to do.
I agree with an earlier post you made about agents being able to be flexible, but I also think it is important that anyone using judgement should be well versed in the core rules. Unfortunately, the flying public don't even know where to find the TSA's website, let alone know the rules. This causes the agents to get blamed for actions that are well documented, but sometimes they make exceptions to keep the peace. In my opinion, they should stick to the rules as written, and let a manager talk to the flyer if there is a disagreement. While making exceptions has the appearance of providing positive customer service, sometimes it actually causes problems for agents at other times, who try to enforce the rules.

Maybe the TSA checkpoints should have the rules printed and available for flyers who have disagreements. This way, and agent not sure can quickly look it up and will have a document to show the flyer the rules at the point of contention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
Lastly, yes your right, some things were a knee jerk reaction, but there has also been changes to lessen the inconvenient things. The problem is that the days of just walking on a plane like in the 60's and 70's is never coming back until a screening machine is developed that will do a total and 100% safe scan and still give the people the feeling of safety and not risking percieved possible injury or lack of privacy.
Luckily, the TSA is working on a solution to this very problem. The TSA Pre-Check system looks like it may be a winner. The problem is in it's implementation. To keep things random, the TSA is unable to guarantee pre-check qualified flyers the ability to take advantage of the program, so these flyers must still arrive early. At least if they end up not being allowed to zoom through security (like the old days), then they are directed to the front of the next available line. This makes flying a legacy airline with the proper background check complete worth something.

In addition, the senior leadership figured out that elderly and very young people pose a significantly reduced threat, so they are able to keep shoes and coats on. I think this was one of the "wide swath" policies that TSA agents had to carry out, which was initiated by politicians trying to CYA.

The CLEAR system (http://clearme.com/home) is an outstanding study in American's behavioral patterns! Unfortunately, it is only available in a few airports. This service provides per-screening, as well, but requires an annual fee. However, what would American's choose: deal with TSA lines or pay $180/year/person to get security like pre-September 11th? Of course, many won't pay for the convenience, but the option is there. As such, anyone here that does complain about TSA should sign-up for Pre-Check ($50 for NEXUS, $100 for Global Entry) or CLEAR and fly a legacy airline to avoid the scanners, laptop and shoe removal, and whisk through security like the "good old days".
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