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Old 07-23-2012, 07:59 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mks18412 View Post
I dont think its the "free" preventative care that irks people, bc you in the long run pay for that just like myself. I think the problem is the "free"healthcare people have an issue with. Because its not free, someone has to pay for it. Our country is trillions of dollars in debt and we cant afford it. Thats all!
Is there anybody actually saying healthcare would be free? I keep reading/hearing people complain about people who think it would be free, but nobody actually thinking it's free. The FACT is that those of us who pay for healthcare pay more per service because of those who don't seek preventative care or pay for their sick care. Solving that problem will cut down on overall costs.

Have you read the constitution by the way? Just go take a look at the preamble for a second. Then read the definition of welfare, read it again, and tell me whether you think the founding fathers wanted us to help each other get a minimum access to basic healthcare for citizens in need.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:10 PM   #62
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I believe its called medicare, medicade, and old fashioned welfare.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:50 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by mistysue View Post
Is there anybody actually saying healthcare would be free? I keep reading/hearing people complain about people who think it would be free, but nobody actually thinking it's free. The FACT is that those of us who pay for healthcare pay more per service because of those who don't seek preventative care or pay for their sick care. Solving that problem will cut down on overall costs.

Have you read the constitution by the way? Just go take a look at the preamble for a second. Then read the definition of welfare, read it again, and tell me whether you think the founding fathers wanted us to help each other get a minimum access to basic healthcare for citizens in need.
What is "minimum access to basic healthcare"?
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:22 PM   #64
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mks18412 - Your arguments make little sense. And you may want to look at some of your earlier posts when you say this isn't supposed to be political...

1. Insurance is pooled risk. You will never get out of it exactly what you put into it. Some are paying more than services received, some less. It's been happening all along. That's how ANY kind of insurance works.

2. We are already paying for the uninsured and/or underinsured. It's just disguised as ER visits, hospital free care, Medicaid, much higher cost of care later in illness because of a lack of preventative services, etc. I don't understand the argument against the insurance mandate. Everyone will need healthcare at some point. How is it different from requiring car insurance? Do you have any idea how much car insurance premiums are inflated to cover uninsured motorist claims? How is it different than paying property taxes that cover schools when I have no children? I have no problem with property taxes. I am rational enough to understand that an educated population is a benefit to society in general. Same with a healthier population (although insurance coverage isn't the end-all be-all to that problem).

3. Socialized healthcare is NOT the same thing as universal coverage.

4. "Death panels" - where to even begin... There are economic considerations to healthcare. Always have been, always will be. To deny that is just sticking one's head in the sand. There will never be resources sufficient to fully cover every single person's complete health needs throughout our lives. Rationed healthcare already exists at every point in the chain, even with insurance. People may not think of noncovered services as a form of rationing, but it is. We are ALL going to die. Doctors need to be able to talk to patients and their families about end-of-life decisions in a thoughtful and caring way without people tossing around ridiculous terms like death panels.


Our healthcare system in the US is broken. Unsustainable and broken. We have the highest per capita costs in the world and not much to show for it. Do I think healthcare reform as it stands now solves all of our problems? No. Doesn't even come close. But don't just regurgitate what politicians tell you. It doesn't help with creating viable solutions for an extremely complex problem.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:36 PM   #65
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Well, I really think we need to make it a reality that everybody can get some sort of regular checkups with preventative screenings, vaccines and at least a medical record to have a sense of personal historical norms. These things are necessary for our welfare because they are a life and death difference. This helps everybody because it increases the chances that things are found when they are cheap (think of the PP who knew to watch her cholesterol) rather than when they are expensive. (imagine if PP was uninsured and had a heart attack, requiring an emergency double bypass!) Seriously, a $150 appointment once a year for her entire life costs less than that ONE hospital visit, not to mention the follow up care she would need.

What we have right now is a system that is going to fall apart. We know that uninsured people create a strain on the system. Unless we just start letting people die in lieu of helping them at the ER, that is not going to change. So we have to figure out how to solve that. I get the whole argument that the constitution doesn't really call for the federal gov to impose policies like PPACA, the intent seems clear to me that states should be handling this and the fed stops the states from imposing on individual rights. States have dropped the ball so congress came in and said "now we will make you stop being neglectful."
We are hurting people by trying to keep up this failing system where only those who feel like buying insurance do. Everybody uses the system. We can't afford NOT to make sure everybody carries some basic policies.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:03 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by JLO View Post
*snip* France has the best health care in the world...
What? I mean, I know to some degree there's a level of subjectivity to that idea, but how can you even justify that concept?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistysue View Post
Have you read the constitution by the way? Just go take a look at the preamble for a second. Then read the definition of welfare, read it again, and tell me whether you think the founding fathers wanted us to help each other get a minimum access to basic healthcare for citizens in need.
No, I don't. I see a group of people who are saying we should work together in order to help everyone. Mutual protection and defense, as well as ensuring that people on one side of a river could visit people on the other without a passport. None of them would have imagined even so much as a concept of this. They also clearly didn't intend for the national government to be so large, hence why all funding should have been able to be provided by imports and exports. Income tax is due to the growth of the federal government at a cost to the states.


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*snip*
2. We are already paying for the uninsured and/or underinsured. It's just disguised as ER visits, hospital free care, Medicaid, much higher cost of care later in illness because of a lack of preventative services, etc. I don't understand the argument against the insurance mandate. Everyone will need healthcare at some point. How is it different from requiring car insurance? Do you have any idea how much car insurance premiums are inflated to cover uninsured motorist claims? How is it different than paying property taxes that cover schools when I have no children? I have no problem with property taxes. I am rational enough to understand that an educated population is a benefit to society in general. Same with a healthier population (although insurance coverage isn't the end-all be-all to that problem).
It's different because one doesn't need car insurance if they don't drive a car. Also, the only mandated insurance should be liability. Unless you want to say people need to start carrying health insurance that would pay for doctors when they made someone else ill, it's a different ballgame. Property taxes paying for schools will impact your house's property value, so you do gain a benefit. And while yes, we may benefit from a healthier society, the cost in jobs will lead to a less healthy society.

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3. Socialized healthcare is NOT the same thing as universal coverage.
No, no it's not. You could also be dealing with a totalitarian government which mandates what its citizens purchase.

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4. "Death panels" - where to even begin... There are economic considerations to healthcare. Always have been, always will be. To deny that is just sticking one's head in the sand. There will never be resources sufficient to fully cover every single person's complete health needs throughout our lives. Rationed healthcare already exists at every point in the chain, even with insurance. People may not think of noncovered services as a form of rationing, but it is. We are ALL going to die. Doctors need to be able to talk to patients and their families about end-of-life decisions in a thoughtful and caring way without people tossing around ridiculous terms like death panels.
You do have a point. Death panels exist today. They're called transplant committees. You also have triage decisions made in war and disasters (such as Pearl Harbor, immediately after 9/11, etc) But this future we're looking to is different. It isn't a question of do we have enough organs, or enough doctors, but enough money. Can we spend the money to keep these people alive? And the day you let the government put a price tag on a human life is the day we undo the 13th Amendment.

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Our healthcare system in the US is broken. Unsustainable and broken. We have the highest per capita costs in the world and not much to show for it. Do I think healthcare reform as it stands now solves all of our problems? No. Doesn't even come close. But don't just regurgitate what politicians tell you. It doesn't help with creating viable solutions for an extremely complex problem.
You're right about that, it doesn't. You need to actually dissect every argument you hear.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:21 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by disneysteve
One thing that many patients don't realize that greatly complicates this whole discussion is that if the doctor finds and treats anything during the visit or if the patient complains about anything during the visit, it ceases to be a well-visit. For example, if you come for an "annual physical" and your blood pressure is high or during the exam, you ask the doctor to take a look at a spot on your back, that is no longer just a "well-visit" and you probably need to pay your co-pay.

Another problem is that many of these types of rules and policies make it much harder on the doctors' offices. Many offices collect co-pays upon arrival, not at the end of the visit. If certain types of visits don't have a co-pay, collecting first is a problem. However, collecting after the fact is a bigger problem because only then will patients mention that they forgot their wallet or checkbook and ask to be billed for the service you've already provided. It leaves the doctors on the hook for a lot of free care.
That is not true. The whole purpose of preventative care no longer having a copay is to find those problems early on before they become expensive. Insurance companies save tons of money through early diagnosis vs paying for a hospital stay after a heart attack. My DH discovered he had hypertension at a well-visit and was put on medication and given a diet plan with no copay for that vii. At one of my DS's visits years ago (when our plan still didn't have a co-pay for well visits) I was concerned about him being constipated with some severe stomach aches. His pediatrician sent us down the hall for an ultrasound and there was no charge for that visit..

What people need to understand is that preventative care saves insurance companies millions in the long run. My employer now requires everyone in the school system with their insurance plan to have a bio-screening done each year. Those who don't do it get their premiums increased by $20 every 2 weeks for both the primary insured and the spouse.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:22 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by IDoDis View Post
The whole purpose of preventative care no longer having a copay is to find those problems early on before they become expensive. Insurance companies save tons of money through early diagnosis vs paying for a hospital stay after a heart attack.

What people need to understand is that preventative care saves insurance companies millions in the long run.


I can use myself as an example. I had an elective colonoscopy last year (age 36) recommended by my doctor due to family history. So I was pro-active about my health and had the procedure done (and really... who WANTS to have a colonoscopy by choice?!). Thank God I did. They found pre-cancerous growing cells that they easily removed.

If I had waited until my 50s, it would have been full blown cancer at that point. Now I just have to get a colonoscopy every 3 years and keep an eye on things. Not only did that potentially save my life, but saved my insurance company thousands. A procedure every 3 years vs cancer treatments, radiation, hospitalization, surgery, etc. It's a no brainer.

(what is ironic is that after I had that procedure done, we applied for private insurance with a new company and they actually denied me coverage based on this, because I was a 'risk'. Other than that, I am completely healthy. How was that fair? I had to fight them tooth and nail for coverage. Going through the process of applying for private insurance really opened my eyes to the problems with our health system today. It's completely broken.)

Including preventative care as a fully COVERED service (not free, as we do pay for insurance) is win-win, IMO.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:54 AM   #69
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Jenny3, I'm so glad that worked out well for you!! Thank goodness you didn't wait until 50 for a colonoscopy
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:31 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by ariel71 View Post
1. Insurance is pooled risk. You will never get out of it exactly what you put into it. Some are paying more than services received, some less. It's been happening all along. That's how ANY kind of insurance works.

2. We are already paying for the uninsured and/or underinsured. It's just disguised as ER visits, hospital free care, Medicaid, much higher cost of care later in illness because of a lack of preventative services, etc. I don't understand the argument against the insurance mandate. Everyone will need healthcare at some point. How is it different from requiring car insurance? Do you have any idea how much car insurance premiums are inflated to cover uninsured motorist claims? How is it different than paying property taxes that cover schools when I have no children? I have no problem with property taxes. I am rational enough to understand that an educated population is a benefit to society in general. Same with a healthier population (although insurance coverage isn't the end-all be-all to that problem).

3. Socialized healthcare is NOT the same thing as universal coverage.

4. "Death panels" - where to even begin... There are economic considerations to healthcare. Always have been, always will be. To deny that is just sticking one's head in the sand. There will never be resources sufficient to fully cover every single person's complete health needs throughout our lives. Rationed healthcare already exists at every point in the chain, even with insurance. People may not think of noncovered services as a form of rationing, but it is. We are ALL going to die. Doctors need to be able to talk to patients and their families about end-of-life decisions in a thoughtful and caring way without people tossing around ridiculous terms like death panels.


Our healthcare system in the US is broken. Unsustainable and broken. We have the highest per capita costs in the world and not much to show for it. Do I think healthcare reform as it stands now solves all of our problems? No. Doesn't even come close. But don't just regurgitate what politicians tell you. It doesn't help with creating viable solutions for an extremely complex problem.
Excellent post!
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:58 AM   #71
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Shared costs in preventative care

I can guarantee that the actuaries at health insurance companies have modeled whether no shared costs (no deductible) would save the insurance company money. If it was the case they would have implemented it years ago.

Also, many companies self-insure their plans and only use an insurance company to administer the plan. It appears that you have insurance through BC/BS, Humana, etc. but really they just send the bill to your employer. The company decides what they will cover and what the cost sharing amounts will be when they establish or amend the plan.

If you believe that preventative care is so important why would you not spend your own money to cover it? Why not forgo cable, cell phone, etc. to insure your health. How about brown bagging lunch to save the money for a visit. Doctors will negotiate with cash payers. The extremely poor and disabled are covered by Medicaid or Medicare so this discussion is really about upper 2/3 (economically) of society and how they chose to allocate their resources.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:04 PM   #72
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DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A DEBATE ABOUT HEALTHCARE REFORM. I DONT WANT TO HEAR IT AND I WILL ASK THE MODS TO CLOSE IF IT DOES!

Is this policy of health care reform now in effect everywhere or is it just my doctors practice?

Just found out when I went for a sick visit yesterday that all preventive care is now covered 100%. Including no copay. That apparently includes a yearly GYN visit as well as yearly physical from my internist (at least for us and our insurance) That means physical, lab work, vaccines, preventive testing, etc is all covered 100%. My doctor said that its great because they are getting an influx of patients who have not been coming in for yearly visits because of cost.

For some reason i thought that didn't go into effect until 2014. But I might be getting confused (especially since I'm just so focused on the fact that in 2014 I will be able to get my own insurance) I was curious if anyone else has experienced this recently or if it's just our medical group.

Whatever the reason, SO HAPPY! With almost $22,000 in medical bills every year (about $7,000 of that being copays), and me needing more surgery this year and probably starting xolair treatment, every little bit helps!!!
Is this in all states? I just paid $30 for each of my kids to have their annual check-up at the peds. last week.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:29 PM   #73
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Is this in all states? I just paid $30 for each of my kids to have their annual check-up at the peds. last week.
I think it depends on the insurance company and may also vary by state. We collect copays for all visits whether sick visits or well visits.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:20 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Chris the CPA View Post
I can guarantee that the actuaries at health insurance companies have modeled whether no shared costs (no deductible) would save the insurance company money. If it was the case they would have implemented it years ago.

Also, many companies self-insure their plans and only use an insurance company to administer the plan. It appears that you have insurance through BC/BS, Humana, etc. but really they just send the bill to your employer. The company decides what they will cover and what the cost sharing amounts will be when they establish or amend the plan.

If you believe that preventative care is so important why would you not spend your own money to cover it? Why not forgo cable, cell phone, etc. to insure your health. How about brown bagging lunch to save the money for a visit. Doctors will negotiate with cash payers. The extremely poor and disabled are covered by Medicaid or Medicare so this discussion is really about upper 2/3 (economically) of society and how they chose to allocate their resources.
Many insurance companies HAVE been doing this for years, including ours. We used to have co-pays for all visits, but about 7 or 8 years ago, the co-pay went away for preventative care. Our insurance company determined that it saved them money in the long run, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Our employer also strongly believes in preventative care and has worked out some deal with the insurance company not to raise rates as long as the insured get yearly bio-screenings. We used to be able to do these at our own doctor's offices, but starting this year, we have to schedule the screening directly with someone who is stationed at a location at our employer's main office. DH and I have appointments for tomorrow morning. I just had a physical last month and have all of my results from the blood tests, but these results are no longer being accepted. The employer & insurance deal is that EVERYONE does the bio-screening. Those that choose not to, have their rates raised $40 per month.

Preventative care has kept premiums down for both employer and employee. Our premiums are high (almost $300 every 2 weeks so $600 a month for our family), but this will be the 3rd year in a row that they haven't increased since this new plan was implemented. Before this, the insurance used to go up about $40-$60 per month with each renewal year.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:26 PM   #75
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I believe its called medicare, medicade, and old fashioned welfare.
Medicare is NOT free, plus we have to carry a supplemental policy to cover what Medicare does not cover.
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