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Old 05-07-2012, 11:38 PM   #136
ZachnElli
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Unfortunately, that line is most likely the result of someone actually feeling that way. I have 3 children and my in-laws fully embrace......one of them. If you think that my other 2 didn't notice that they were excluded at a very young age, you would be wrong. Making some people feel like they don't quite belong seems to be quite entertaining for some. On a lighter note, we loved Despicable Me, my youngest got what being adopted meant from that movie and in a positive way!
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:43 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennasis View Post
I was being facetious about the "point break" thing. And there were plenty of cracks about sexual orientation, race (though maybe not a legitimate race) and religion in Buffy and Angel.
Fair enough about being facetious. I've been known to get a bit shrill with these sorts of things. I don't know if you'd noticed. It'd be an interesting paper to write to go through Buffy/Angel and check all of the jokes to see which ones would qualify as "offensive" from which characters. Maybe tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Jennasis View Post
I'm always fascinated (and skeptical) when "lurkers" come out of lurkdom to jump into a controversial subject, miraculously with supporting anecdotal evidence when there is little support for the OP. Your kid seems to be the only actual child offended (the rest are parents). May I ask how old your kid is? It took 90 minutes to soothe the kid's ego? Really? Perhaps she was too young for the PG-13 movie. And if she was older than 13...NINETY minutes?
  1. I don't lurk here. I found this particular thread on Google and became incensed by the people arguing that "it's just a joke" is okay for this sort of thing. I get what you're saying, though.
  2. My daughter's seven, soon to be eight.
  3. See my comment on the rating above. That's not the issue here. My wife and I were equally offended (although we're older, more mature, and more aware of the prejudices against adoption, so we didn't require soothing the same way my daughter did), and we're more than old enough for the movie.
  4. It's not an "ego" thing. I can tell you're trying to be polite here, so I'll respond in kind, but that's the sort of comment that shows the insensitivity that adoptees and adoptive parents have to deal with all the time. More on "ego" below... maybe. (It's late.)
  5. "Ninety minutes." We have thorough discussions in our house. We let the talk go where it would, and we discussed all sorts of prejudices and comments that people would label as "just jokes" that would hurt feelings. Our daughter IS young, and she has yet to experience most of the ugliness that life has to offer.
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DH spoke to three coworkers today who saw the film this weekend. One is an adopted adult who was not offended. The other two are parents of two adopted children and neither the parents nor the children were offended in the slightest.
Good for them. It's still offensive and insensitive. I'd honestly like to see what Joss would say to my daughter that would justify the second-most noble character in the whole movie insulting the make-up of our family.
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It's a rough world out there. I'm reminded of the saying "prepare your child for the path, not the path for your child."
Sigh. Really? This is your answer? "It's okay for everyone else to be total jerks. It's all on your kid to deal with the crap they say." Sorry, I ask for more from the world. I don't always expect to get it, but I'm not going to stop demanding better.

I was more ignorant twenty years ago than I am now, and the world is a better place for me having learned to keep my trap shut about some issues like this. The fact that disgusting racial and mental epithets are being used less frequently because people have called others on their usage is a good thing.

Must each child be prepared for the harshness of the path? Yes. There will always be harshness. Should we as a society stop improving the path as best we can? Never.
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However, let me bottom line my feelings on the matter for you(since I have already invoked the jazz hands)....I really am sorry you and your kid's feelings were hurt. I'm sorry some other's were as well. I'm sorry it tarnished for you what was otherwise a stellar movie. I am. It bums me out that something so seemingly trivial (and hilarious IMO) may have ruined the experience for you and to be honest, when I fork out another $13 to go see it this week, I won't get nearly the same joy out of that line as I did the first time I watched it.
I don't lurk, and I'm BRAND new here. I don't get the "jazz hands" thing. Please enlighten me. (Seriously.)

I agree with you: the movie was otherwise pretty darned good. I hope you enjoy the 99.9% of the movie that ISN'T that line. I did. At the same time, I'd just ask that you listen to the laughter around you at that line, and ask yourself what people are really laughing at.
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That said, it was still possibly the best movie I've ever seen and I hope Joss Whedon does the same outstanding job on the next one.
I hope he does even better and doesn't reinforce baseless and damaging cliches about people whose families are formed differently than others.

Last edited by EricQelDroma; 05-08-2012 at 12:22 AM. Reason: Trying to comply with the strictest profanity filter I've ever seen.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:44 PM   #138
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I see mostly people here not understanding the story of Loki and what he actually is. Adopted or not, his lineage helps make him what he is in this particular folklore.

Could the comment have been left out to avoid hurt feelings? Yes, it could have. However this info is still true and relevant when it comes to Loki. The Norse gods are not like us in storyline. I could see how some could project that they are however.

EricQelDroma, you actually sought out a Disney website to complain about this comment? Wouldn't it make more sense to complain to the filmmakers themselves?
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:48 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennasis View Post
I was being facetious about the "point break" thing. And there were plenty of cracks about sexual orientation, race (though maybe not a legitimate race) and religion in Buffy and Angel.

I'm always fascinated (and skeptical) when "lurkers" come out of lurkdom to jump into a controversial subject, miraculously with supporting anecdotal evidence when there is little support for the OP. Your kid seems to be the only actual child offended (the rest are parents). May I ask how old your kid is? It took 90 minutes to soothe the kid's ego? Really? Perhaps she was too young for the PG-13 movie. And if she was older than 13...NINETY minutes?

DH spoke to three coworkers today who saw the film this weekend. One is an adopted adult who was not offended. The other two are parents of two adopted children and neither the parents nor the children were offended in the slightest.

It's a rough world out there. I'm reminded of the saying "prepare your child for the path, not the path for your child."

However, let me bottom line my feelings on the matter for you(since I have already invoked the jazz hands)....I really am sorry you and your kid's feelings were hurt. I'm sorry some other's were as well. I'm sorry it tarnished for you what was otherwise a stellar movie. I am. It bums me out that something so seemingly trivial (and hilarious IMO) may have ruined the experience for you and to be honest, when I fork out another $13 to go see it this week, I won't get nearly the same joy out of that line as I did the first time I watched it.

That said, it was still possibly the best movie I've ever seen and I hope Joss Whedon does the same outstanding job on the next one.
My son who is adopted was confused by the joke and is 9. I think what got to him in the theater was hearing that Loki was adopted and people laughing, as if people laughed at people who are adopted. Hopefully that makes sense how I am saying it.

He told us that he did not understand it in the theater, so we said we would explain it after, so I brought it up today with him. At first, I could not explain it in a way that sounded remotely funny. Then I said to him, it would be like you are at school telling your teacher that so and so is your best friend. The teacher says, well so and so just punched a child, so you say, well I do not really know him all that well. He started to laugh and then said, basically Thor did not want to take the blame for his actions.

I really think what may set a child off is just hearing people laugh and thinking thy are laughing at kids who are adopted. My daughter is a few years older and while she did not laugh, she did not make an issue out of it either.

Off topic, can you explain jazz hands to me?
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:52 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plutotek View Post
If this was about our society as it exists today, then you might have a valid argument. However, you are taking offense at a comment made by a character born in Norse mythology about another mythological character, both of whom existed in a fantasy world where there is a caste system and Asgardians are beautiful, dwarves are ugly and giants (Jotun) are duplicitous and deadly.
Oooh. Please. Please continue to assert that fantasy situations don't reflect "real" life in any appreciable way. Please continue to argue that a movie written in the 21st century should reinforce stereotypes from a thousand years ago or more. I think it's funny how wrong you are here.
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Unless your family are mythological creations, I don't see how you were insulted.
The joke wasn't about myths. The joke was about adoption. My family was formed through adoption, and we are insulted. Your inability to understand this is sad.
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I never called your daughter pathetic. However, I did call the sanctimony and outrage over something that will be forgotten in a month pathetic.
My daughter was confused and angry about this. She's too young to turn it into proper "outrage." I'm outraged for her and for myself, so it sounds to me like you're calling us (and anyone else offended by the line) "pathetic" as well.

And the only people who will be forgetting about this outrage in a month are those who don't live through these kinds of insults on a daily basis and who choose not to see how they hurt others by perpetuating and allowing those insults to continue.
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Actually, I do recall quite a few jokes made about people not being beautiful and jokes about lesbians.
From Buffy? From Angel? Insulting jokes? What I really remember from Buffy is the way she took time for Jonathan in Season 3, how she always tried to help the helpless, and how she stood up to Cordelia's attitude in the early seasons. I'll admit that I'm several years removed from these series though, and maybe I'm remembering them through rose-colored glasses.

Last edited by EricQelDroma; 05-08-2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason: Clarifying intent.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:57 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Planogirl View Post
EricQelDroma, you actually sought out a Disney website to complain about this comment? Wouldn't it make more sense to complain to the filmmakers themselves?
My first letters were directly to the filmmakers. I then Googled the issue to see what people were saying. I chose to join this conversation. I wasn't specifically seeking out a Disney site, although it is a Disney film.

And I don't ever consider constructive (if heated) debate a waste of time, so it made plenty of sense to me to join this conversation.

Anyway, I'm up past my bedtime! Good night, all!
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:12 AM   #142
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Oh, it's definitely time for jazz hands again:

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Old 05-08-2012, 12:18 AM   #143
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Oh, it's definitely time for jazz hands again:
There's a couple of us newbies here (me included) who don't get this reference. Would someone please explain it?
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:27 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricQelDroma View Post
My daughter was confused and angry about this. She's too young to turn it into proper "outrage." I'm outraged for her and for myself, so it sounds to me like you're calling us (and anyone else offended by the line) "pathetic" as well.
Well, I was considering taking you up on your original offer (before you edited your response) so I will just say that in all your moral outrage, you are only seeing what you want to see in the responses before you, and no cohesive argument will cause you to understand anything beyond your perceived insult in those 2-3 words and the subsequent laughter they garnered.

Oh, and you can probably put the high horse away, because I am an adoptive father and am well aware of what that entails. And that is why the only thing I find more amusing than a throwaway line in a movie is the moral outrage that has been expressed by you and others.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:32 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by plutotek View Post
Well, I was considering taking you up on your original offer (before you edited your response) so I will just say that in all your moral outrage, you are only seeing what you want to see in the responses before you, and no cohesive argument will cause you to understand anything beyond your perceived insult in those 2-3 words and the subsequent laughter they garnered.

Oh, and you can probably put the high horse away, because I am an adoptive father and am well aware of what that entails. And that is why the only thing I find more amusing than a throwaway line in a movie is the moral outrage that has been expressed by you and others.
Beautifully said.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:33 AM   #146
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Well, I was considering taking you up on your original offer (before you edited your response) so I will just say that in all your moral outrage, you are only seeing what you want to see in the responses before you, and no cohesive argument will cause you to understand anything beyond your perceived insult in those 2-3 words and the subsequent laughter they garnered.

Oh, and you can probably put the high horse away, because I am an adoptive father and am well aware of what that entails. And that is why the only thing I find more amusing than a throwaway line in a movie is the moral outrage that has been expressed by you and others.
You're welcome to call me "pathetic" all you like. I have broad shoulders, and I can bear that burden. I edited the response because my wording was apparently too aggressive for the mods. Hey, it's their site and their rules, and I'm not arguing that point.

And my "high horse" isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry to hear that the insult that those words contain isn't audible to you or to many of the other folks on here. I will continue to express my frustration and anger when I hear people making rude, insulting jokes about things that people cannot control and should not be asked to change. That includes race, sexuality, creed, and family construction.

But not tonight. I really do have to get to bed. Good night again. For real.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:37 AM   #147
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Jazz hands are the "big finish" I invented here on the DIS when a thread has run its course and has devolved into either name calling, hostility, pointless back and forth (or an inability for either side to budge)...when a thread needs to die an honorable and hilarious death we:







Works every time...Peace out.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:12 AM   #148
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I'm disappointed for many reasons and in many people. One being that we were really looking forward to seeing this movie. But hearing about this line made me realize that sitting there in a movie theater while everyone laughed it up would take a great deal of enjoyment out of the experience. And I hate being diddled out of seeing a good movie. I hate paying a chunk of change to see movie, only to have an adoption joke ruin it for me. Maybe when it hits RedBox. So I had decided DH could just go alone. He's usually fine with that.

He came in tonight, told me he was getting some time off work and wanted to know if DD and I would like to go see The Avengers. When I told him about the line (and yes, he knows his Thor background) he got the most awful look on his face and I knew the movie was now ruined for him too. He also said there was no way he would take DD (since she's unmotivated to see it anyway ) and risk the "joke" and the resulting crowd laughter hurting her. Who would set their kid up for that? My guess is that as word gets out, many parents of adopted kids will just forego the movie, because seeing an otherwise good movie is not worth the risk of possibly hurting their kids.

I used to say, "Disney loves a dead mother," because no one killed off more mothers than Disney movies. That always bugged me, but since I still had my mother as a child, it did me no harm. But I realized kids who had lost their moms might feel awful after many Disney movies.

At any rate, I promise you, the adoption "joke" would never have made it into the film had Joss Whedon's own children been adopted. I'd bet cash on that one.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:21 AM   #149
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Is it seriously just the use of the term "adopted" that's upsetting people so much?

Had the line been something like "He's Jotun, not Asgardian" (or whatever the right terms are) would that have been OK?

The situation isn't that Loki is of the same race (and I'm talking something more akin to different species, not different human races here) and happened to be a bad seed. It's more akin to a demon being raised by angels who love him and do consider him family but his nature wins out anyway.

I can understand that the line might lead to some discussions, particularly in families with adopted children, but I don't think that's all bad. The idea that it leads to lasting hurt or ruins an otherwise enjoyable movie does seem overly sensitive to me, but perhaps some people are in a place where they are overly sensitive.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:36 AM   #150
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Ok, I've read the whole thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricQelDroma View Post
You're welcome to call me "pathetic" all you like. I have broad shoulders, and I can bear that burden. I edited the response because my wording was apparently too aggressive for the mods. Hey, it's their site and their rules, and I'm not arguing that point.

And my "high horse" isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry to hear that the insult that those words contain isn't audible to you or to many of the other folks on here. I will continue to express my frustration and anger when I hear people making rude, insulting jokes about things that people cannot control and should not be asked to change. That includes race, sexuality, creed, and family construction.

But not tonight. I really do have to get to bed. Good night again. For real.
I guess who am I to judge if people are easily offended. However, I speak that from an interracial relationship and as the daughter of a man who is in a 25 year relationship with his "partner". So do I fit into the "family construction" category? Frankly, I don't get offended by flippant jokes on either of those subjects. I do, however, get offended by derogatory names (like the f one). And I get a little offended when people think I am in anything other than a normal "family construction" category. I know several families in my church that have adopted children that have resulted from foster care, and not one of them mentioned this to me. Although now I will ask just to see what they think.

IMHO, I think you mentioned your daughter is 7? It's PG-13. You took the risk of having to explain NUMEROUS things to her after the movie. My husband is a filmmaker, so my kids know the action isn't real, the death isn't real, etc etc. I always know that in an action movie I'm probably OK on PG-13 even though my youngest is 5. She already knows it's fake, she sees her daddy do it. HOWEVER, it is MY responsibility to explain things to all 3 of my under 13 kids if I take them to a PG-13 movie. So IMHO, I would take this opportunity to have a nice long discussion about the "joke" in question. A PP gave a great example of their discussion that worked for their kid. If you go into the talk offended, your kid will be offended to. If you go into the talk trying to explain, maybe they will understand why so many other people, INCLUDING THOSE WHO ARE IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS, are not offended.

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Originally Posted by Lolsmum View Post
Is it seriously just the use of the term "adopted" that's upsetting people so much?

Had the line been something like "He's Jotun, not Asgardian" (or whatever the right terms are) would that have been OK?

The situation isn't that Loki is of the same race (and I'm talking something more akin to different species, not different human races here) and happened to be a bad seed. It's more akin to a demon being raised by angels who love him and do consider him family but his nature wins out anyway.

I can understand that the line might lead to some discussions, particularly in families with adopted children, but I don't think that's all bad. The idea that it leads to lasting hurt or ruins an otherwise enjoyable movie does seem overly sensitive to me, but perhaps some people are in a place where they are overly sensitive.
Yes, well said.

Jazz Hands indeed.
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