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Old 05-06-2012, 11:02 PM   #31
EricQelDroma
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I almost laughed, too; the line is well played. But the laughter stuck in my throat when all of the joke's implications crashed down on me. My daughter never got for a second that it was supposed to be a joke.

"Are people laughing because they think adopted kids are bad? Am I bad?"
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:13 PM   #32
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Did you watch Thor? Really?

Loki does what he does BECAUSE he finds out that he is not Odin's son. Loki's own feelings about being adopted have bearing on everything he does. The line from this movie aside (which was most likely just intended as a quick joke), Loki is the only one who has a problem with the fact that he is not of the line of Odin. Thor still loves him and thinks of him as his brother, and Frigga and Odin still think of him as their son. In the comics, this only changes after all of the awful things he does.
I'm not sure you understand what adoption is. If Loki is adopted, he is Odin's son period.

The fact remains, when Thor is confronted with Loki's list of offenses, he cops out: "he's adopted".

I'm sure if I read the comic series, I'd have a better understanding of the plot.

My concern is the message of the movie sent out that adoption is not quite the same as being a "real" son or brother.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:22 PM   #33
EricQelDroma
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I think what's going on there is our language's lack of precision when dealing with adoption. When we say, "Loki finds out he's not Odin's son," what we really mean is "Loki finds out he's not Odin's biological son" or "Loki finds out he is not genetically descended from Odin." Once adopted, Loki is Odin's "forever son." (That's the language we use in our family, at least, with our elementary-aged children.)

Reading the comic series shouldn't have much to do with the movies' plots, and even if it does, the comics still only communicate to those who have read them, and movie audiences =/= comic audiences. My daughter and I have had multiple discussions of what "worthy" means when I tell her that you have to be worthy to lift Thor's hammer, which is why the Hulk can't do it in Avengers. To have this "worthy" guy make this cheap adoption joke is cruel and foolish.

Doug, I agree with you when you say, "My concern is the message of the movie sent out that adoption is not quite the same as being a 'real' son or brother." In fact, I'd go even farther and say that the movie's message in that scene is that adoption is profoundly inferior to being biologically related.

I often have to stop people in mid-sentence when talking with them about adoption to make these clarifications: "Of course she's my REAL daughter. If you're asking if she's my BIOLOGICAL daughter, then no, she isn't, but that doesn't make her not my REAL daughter." It's enough to make a person crazy.

Last edited by EricQelDroma; 05-06-2012 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Spelling. Duh.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:41 PM   #34
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I'm not sure you understand what adoption is. If Loki is adopted, he is Odin's son period.
And that's exactly what Odin tells Loki in Thor when he finds out he's adopted. Twice.

This is the actual dialogue from Thor (from IMDB):

Quote:
Odin discovers Loki holding the Casket of Ancient Winters]
Odin: STOP!
Loki: Am I cursed?
Odin: No.
Odin: What am I?
Odin: You are my son.

[Loki turns and looks at Odin]
Loki: [features briefly blue and chill] What more than that?... The Casket wasn't the only thing you took from Jotunheim that day, was it?
Odin: No. In the aftermath of the battle I went into the temple and I found a baby. Small for a Giant's offspring, abandoned, suffering, left to die. Laufey's son.
Loki: Laufeyson?
Odin: Yes.
Loki: Why? You were knee-deep in Jotun blood. Why would you take me?
Odin: You were an innocent child.
Loki: No. You took me for a purpose. What was it?... TELL ME!
Odin: I thought we could unite our kingdoms one day. Bring about an alliance, bring about permanent peace... through you.
Loki: What?
Odin: But those plans no longer matter.
Loki: So I am no more than another stolen relic, locked up here until you might have use of me?
Odin: Why do you twist my words?
Loki: You could have told me what I was from the beginning! Why didn't you?
Odin: You're my son... I wanted only to protect you from the truth...

Loki: What, because I... I... I am the monster parents tell their children about at night?
Odin: [unwell] No, no...
Loki: You know, it all makes sense now, why you favored Thor all these years, because no matter how much you claim to love me, you could never have a Frost Giant sitting on the throne of Asgard!
[an overcome Odin collapses]
Loki: Guards! Guards, please help!
Then, despite repeated assurances throughout the movie that he had always been loved as a son and a brother, Loki threw away because that his jealousy consumed him.

His adoption wasn't his problem. His jealousy and his extremely bad choices were.

At the end of that movie, Thor was devastated to have lost Loki, and it was still clear mourning the loss of a brother.

And I thought the line was funny. It clearly was not intended as a slam against adoption in general (that wouldn't have been funny), but it was just in reference to one particular problem child in an awkward moment.

Even throughout this movie, it was obvious that Thor still considered Loki a brother.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricQelDroma View Post
I almost laughed, too; the line is well played. But the laughter stuck in my throat when all of the joke's implications crashed down on me. My daughter never got for a second that it was supposed to be a joke.

"Are people laughing because they think adopted kids are bad? Am I bad?"
And this is why the, "You're reading too much into it" crowd will never get it. They see the line as just that....a line. A joke maybe. An explanation, perhaps. They are unable to grasp the enormity of the harm such a line can do. It's a joke made at the expense of vulnerable children and IMHO, there is NO excuse for that. What laugh is worth making innocent children wonder if something is fundamentally wrong with them?
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:50 PM   #36
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And this is why the, "You're reading too much into it" crowd will never get it. They see the line as just that....a line. A joke maybe. An explanation, perhaps. They are unable to grasp the enormity of the harm such a line can do. It's a joke made at the expense of vulnerable children and IMHO, there is NO excuse for that. What laugh is worth making innocent children wonder if something is fundamentally wrong with them?
And that's offensive too. Just because someone didn't consider a line offensive doesn't mean that they "don't get it" or insensitive to someone's feelings.

We just didn't think the line was offensive. It was obvious the line was a reference to Loki and Thor was just trying to backtrack from his defense of him after being reminded that Loki was being extremely awful.

It was clearly not intended as a slam against adoption in general.

A few years ago, the movie "Orphan" had a tagline on the poster about how it was harder to love an adopted child as much as your own. That was offensive, and I agreed with the complaints about that poster, and glad the studio changed it.

But this? No, it's not the same thing at all. Especially since it's amongst two whole movies were Loki was repeatedly told how he had been loved as nothing less than a son and a brother. And even after that line, Thor was still trying to stop Loki and save him - as his brother.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:58 PM   #37
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The second I heard that line delivered, I knew it would end up on the dis.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:10 AM   #38
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And that's offensive too. Just because someone didn't consider a line offensive doesn't mean that they "don't get it" or insensitive to someone's feelings.

We just didn't think the line was offensive. It was obvious the line was a reference to Loki and Thor was just trying to backtrack from his defense of him after being reminded that Loki was being extremely awful.

It was clearly not intended as a slam against adoption in general.

A few years ago, the movie "Orphan" had a tagline on the poster about how it was harder to love an adopted child as much as your own. That was offensive, and I agreed with the complaints about that poster, and glad the studio changed it.

But this? No, it's not the same thing at all. Especially since it's amongst two whole movies were Loki was repeatedly told how he had been loved as nothing less than a son and a brother. And even after that line, Thor was still trying to stop Loki and save him - as his brother.
I don't expect you or anyone else to be offended by the line. What I would HOPE is that they could open their hearts and minds enough to empathize with adopted children and realize that such a line might well offend/hurt adopted children. It boggles my mind that it is beyond anyone's comprehension how this might (likely would) negatively impact adopted children, especially given the posts from adoptees and adoptive parents explaining that fact in clear detail.

A Rebel flag does not offend me in the least, but I can grasp how it might offend Blacks. A fraternity "slave auction" might strike one person as merely tasteless, but might cause much stronger emotions in someone whose ancestors had been slaves.

Of course, the "target" of the act/line/joke will be more offended than a person who is not the target. I don't have to be offended to wrap my head around the fact that some things....especially those that would seriously hurt CHILDREN......might need to be reconsidered as joke material.

But if you believe if was a fine thing to do and totally worth the joke, even if if was a slap in the face to a lot of kids who will see the movie and walk out hurt, hey.......We're just going to disagree.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:42 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by EricQelDroma View Post
I don't think anyone here's being "too sensitive" about anything. Thor was clearly implying that Loki was not a true part of the Odin-line family. Well, guess what? If someone's adopted, they're part of the family. The end, that's it.

But maybe you’re right. Maybe it's just one line. Maybe one little joke won't hurt anyone. Maybe the next movie should have some throw-away lines about how Fury couldn’t get the job done because he’s black, or how they should have had a man do the Widow’s job, or how this was all the Hulk’s fault somehow because he’s a stupid r—-d. Let’s see how funny “jokes” like that are when spoken by someone kids are supposed to look up to. Maybe next time Captain America can make those jokes instead of Thor.

Give me a break. Marvel dropped the ball here, big time.
Have you ever watched the Disney Channel? Cheerleaders are always ditzy. Kids with inhalers are always uncool nerds. Smart kids are uncool nerds. Etc.

As the mom with an asthmatic son, the inhaler one really bothers me. If you make it uncool to use life-saving meds, kids die. Would they do the same with insulin shots?

I'm sure I'm being too sensitive, too. It's probably really funny to some people
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:02 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by EMom View Post
And this is why the, "You're reading too much into it" crowd will never get it. They see the line as just that....a line. A joke maybe. An explanation, perhaps. They are unable to grasp the enormity of the harm such a line can do. It's a joke made at the expense of vulnerable children and IMHO, there is NO excuse for that. What laugh is worth making innocent children wonder if something is fundamentally wrong with them?
So when a movie or Tv show makes a joke about being fat or a dumb blonde are you equaling outraged? As a parent I don't like anyone making fun of my child but if I can't summon outrage for every offensives "joke" than I deal with any fallout with my child on my own. I don't expect others to feel the same injustices I do. I save my public outrage for bigger issues than a slight to my child. How we as a family is what really matters to my child not what some silly cartoon characters think.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:56 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by JenM View Post
And that's exactly what Odin tells Loki in Thor when he finds out he's adopted. Twice.

This is the actual dialogue from Thor (from IMDB):



Then, despite repeated assurances throughout the movie that he had always been loved as a son and a brother, Loki threw away because that his jealousy consumed him.

His adoption wasn't his problem. His jealousy and his extremely bad choices were.

At the end of that movie, Thor was devastated to have lost Loki, and it was still clear mourning the loss of a brother.

And I thought the line was funny. It clearly was not intended as a slam against adoption in general (that wouldn't have been funny), but it was just in reference to one particular problem child in an awkward moment.

Even throughout this movie, it was obvious that Thor still considered Loki a brother.
In other words

Cliche #1 Parents didn't tell child he was adopted.
Cliche #2 Adoptee has all kinds of problems dealing with the fact that he was adopted.
Cliche #3 Adoptee is just a Bad Seed to begin with and you can't change Fate.

And now that I've read this, let's add Cliche #4 Adoptive Parents are wonderful, it's just that Cliche #3 has come into play.



After all these years, you'd think maybe, just maybe, someone could come up with an original plot line about adoption in a movie, but no, they just keep on plugging the same old adoptee storyline, over and over again.
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Old 05-07-2012, 06:06 AM   #42
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Have you ever watched the Disney Channel? Cheerleaders are always ditzy. Kids with inhalers are always uncool nerds. Smart kids are uncool nerds. Etc.

As the mom with an asthmatic son, the inhaler one really bothers me. If you make it uncool to use life-saving meds, kids die. Would they do the same with insulin shots?

I'm sure I'm being too sensitive, too. It's probably really funny to some people
Okay, off topic, but ever seen The Wizards of Waverly Place? Harper was a cheerleader who got Alex into being a cheerleader. (Okay, Harper was a ditz, but she was also was bigger than a size 00 and was a great, sympathetic character.) Justin and eventually Zeke were nerds and geeks, but were cool.

I also give you Phineas and Ferb, which loves to riff off the nerd/bully/fanboy stereotypes and give you characters in those categories that are easy to care about and to root for.

Now I'm wondering if you could possibly bring it up in some way and raise some consciousness. . .why not have a character on P&F who needs an inhaler? (Like one of the Fireside girls. Just as long as it's not Addison!) It's just not that uncommon for one kid in a pack of kids to need an inhaler occasionally.
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Old 05-07-2012, 06:11 AM   #43
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In other words

Cliche #1 Parents didn't tell child he was adopted.
Cliche #2 Adoptee has all kinds of problems dealing with the fact that he was adopted.
Cliche #3 Adoptee is just a Bad Seed to begin with and you can't change Fate.

And now that I've read this, let's add Cliche #4 Adoptive Parents are wonderful, it's just that Cliche #3 has come into play.



After all these years, you'd think maybe, just maybe, someone could come up with an original plot line about adoption in a movie, but no, they just keep on plugging the same old adoptee storyline, over and over again.
Maybe because this isn't an original story line. Thor would suck if they changed the plot. The kiss of death for a comic book movie is to go to far from the accepted cannon of the character because then all the comic fans will hate the movie. You may do ok with enough action to keep some others entertained but its the comic fans that really make or break the movie.

The main story of Thor was written along time ago and some very basics of the plot can't be changed. Including that he is adopted, that he didn't know, and that Odin always loves him anyway. They could have left the joke out yes but the cliches you have above were needed.

It would take a new movie with a new plot to do something different. Not a retelling of the same story.

To give you an idea of how much the comic fans check everything... some are upset that they threw in a new random alien race. They don't think that was enough to make the movie not awesome but still didn't like it. There is no way they could have changed the main plot of Thor.
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Old 05-07-2012, 06:28 AM   #44
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Maybe because this isn't an original story line. Thor would suck if they changed the plot. The kiss of death for a comic book movie is to go to far from the accepted cannon of the character because then all the comic fans will hate the movie. You may do ok with enough action to keep some others entertained but its the comic fans that really make or break the movie.

The main story of Thor was written along time ago and some very basics of the plot can't be changed. Including that he is adopted, that he didn't know, and that Odin always loves him anyway. They could have left the joke out yes but the cliches you have above were needed.

It would take a new movie with a new plot to do something different. Not a retelling of the same story.
To give you an idea of how much the comic fans check everything... some are upset that they threw in a new random alien race. They don't think that was enough to make the movie not awesome but still didn't like it. There is no way they could have changed the main plot of Thor.
Oh yeah. Because every Batman is the same movie.
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Old 05-07-2012, 06:39 AM   #45
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Okay, off topic, but ever seen The Wizards of Waverly Place? Harper was a cheerleader who got Alex into being a cheerleader. (Okay, Harper was a ditz, but she was also was bigger than a size 00 and was a great, sympathetic character.) Justin and eventually Zeke were nerds and geeks, but were cool.

I also give you Phineas and Ferb, which loves to riff off the nerd/bully/fanboy stereotypes and give you characters in those categories that are easy to care about and to root for.

Now I'm wondering if you could possibly bring it up in some way and raise some consciousness. . .why not have a character on P&F who needs an inhaler? (Like one of the Fireside girls. Just as long as it's not Addison!) It's just not that uncommon for one kid in a pack of kids to need an inhaler occasionally.
Thank god my kids have grown out of that stage, so I don't have to watch any Disney Channel But didn't the little magical girl constantly rip on the "nerdy" dude?

As for the inhaler issue. Just leave it out. It's never germane to the story, just a stereotype.

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