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Old 07-30-2010, 06:20 PM   #76
jcb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KPeveler View Post
I am most interested in what will happen with buses. How does one tie down a Segway. I was under the impression that mobility devices had to be secured safely (holding on is not safe) per federal regulations...

Also, does this law extend to public transportation? Or just to pedestrian areas?
This is understandably complex, primarily because different federal agencies have jurisdiction over different issues. Justice regulates "public accommodations" (e.g., WDW) but then DOT regulates transportation and the "Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board" referred to as the "Access Board" is "an independent Federal agency" that "develops and maintains design criteria for the built environment, transit vehicles, telecommunications equipment, and for electronic and information technology."

As to buses, CR ESQ has posted guidance from the DOT. It is not legally binding but reflects the opinion of the agency. A bus operator who follows the guidance can say it acted in good faith. Refusing to follow the guidance would not be an automatic legal violation but it could, if a court agreed, be illegal. The court is not required to agree. Odds are it would.

On July 26, 2010, the Access Board (which is separate from the DOT) stated in a notice of proposed rulemaking:

Quote:
Transit operators who commented the drafts of the proposed rule requested guidance on the transportability of certain size wheelchairs and mobility devices (e.g., Segways). The Department of Transportation is responsible for issuing regulations regarding the provision of transportation services to individuals with disabilities under the Americans with Disabilities Act. The Department of Transportation regulations specify the size of wheelchairs that must be transported. The Department of Transportation has also issued guidance on the use of Segways on transportation vehicles. The Department of Transportation will conduct a separate rulemaking to amend its regulations so that the accessibility standards included in the regulations are consistent with the revisions to Access Board’s transportation vehicle guidelines. Comments on transportability of certain size wheelchairs and mobility devices, and other service issues should be submitted to the Department of Transportation when it amends its regulations.
Best of all, making a comment is free. It can be done online (regulations.gov). You don't have to be a lawyer. Just a person with an opinion. Sadly, I just don't think anyone on this board has an opinion.
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:31 PM   #77
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Good afternoon,

From a personal standpoint I still don't know where I stand on this. From a legal standpoint I have a different opinion.
One thing I do know is that the use of YouTube videos always amuses me. Today I searched Segway crashes, the Segway injuries, wheelchair crashes etc.

I do find it astounding that those that post videos only seem to post the ones that suit your needs. I also did a YouTube search on Segs4Vets and DRAFT. Why is it no one ever posts them.

Here's a little example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orn_h78p17g

I found that on YouTube with many others showing people in wheelchairs riding escalators tumbling over etc. but as a reasonable person I don't look at that video and think to myself "well those damned disabled people they are a danger to society and should be kept away from the general public".

Obviously that's extreme but no more extreme than selectively choosing videos to see one's needs.

Again the thing I find strikingly strange is that I can find true hard news stories, not blogs etc. about a Segway injuring another person. I thought that would be pretty easy to do, let's face it at this point everyone's camera is their own little news studio and yet nothing.

When the Monorail accident happened photos had hit the news wires within minutes. I'm assuming it would be the same if an old woman or small child was run over by a Segway.

Thank you for taking the time to listen,
Harold
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:39 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb View Post
Best of all, making a comment is free. It can be done online (regulations.gov). You don't have to be a lawyer. Just a person with an opinion. Sadly, I just don't think anyone on this board has an opinion.
No argument there Jack!

There is no question it's very easy to follow opinions on these matters. If you're reading the list of comments it was striking how few objectors there were to the Segway issue.

With the amount of traffic on this board with any effort at all they would've swamped the DOJ with objections.

It's too late for this, I think I retired too early as I see a courtroom coming , but there is a new rule change that will open for comment soon. There are four issues on it and anyone who posts on this board should give their opinion whether it affects them directly or not. Either the disabled community voices their opinions or they will let other people make the choices for them.
After spending my entire adult life as a civil rights attorney and then Dist. Atty. I can say one thing and total confidence. There is a great deal of apathy within the disabled community and if they don't wake up and watch what's going on carefully other people will decide their destiny.



Enjoy yourself today,
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Last edited by CR ESQ.; 07-30-2010 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:07 PM   #79
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More thoughts on Segway use:

http://www.universalhub.com/2010/con...ay-regulations

"Steve Spinetto, commissioner for persons with disabilities, said Segways "are actually an incredible boon for people with disabilities" - if they ride them.. But they're a potential threat to the handicapped who don't ride them because they might move more slowly - or be unable to see or hear them. Spinnetto said vehicles that move at 12 mph can cause serious harm to pedestrians. "That's an accident waiting to happen."

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060914/094043.shtml

"Re: Re: segways
Randall, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 2:04pm
I had a segway accident in 2004. I was in a coma for 2 weeks and wasn't expected to live.I spent 4 months in critical care.
the right side of my head is now titanium as a result of my injuries and 4 brain operations.
I will never work or play again due to brain parts missing.
Tell me who you are writing for.
rb"

"Segway
Just Me, Oct 21st, 2008 @ 7:37am
I was permanently disabled several years ago on a Segway that was later recalled by the company and fixed. THEY clearly acknowledged it was defective at the time because they didn't realize yet how many people were getting injured as most were probably minor and never reported."


Even with training people get hurt from Feb of this year:
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/...-1-breaks-ank/
A Collier County sheriff’s deputy broke his ankle early Monday when he and another deputy crashed their Segways.

Last edited by livndisney; 07-30-2010 at 07:12 PM. Reason: added
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:26 PM   #80
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Mrsksomeday

The regs allow Disney or any public accomodation to ask for the presentation of a valid state issued disability placard, they even add that if the placard has expired than it is not valid. Most people who know that that is the rule will be prepared and comply.

Lets assume there is a shady rental company that tells their patrons to lie about how long they have used a Segway. If their customer has an accident and Disney discovers that the company is telling their customers to lie, what do you think Disney's legal Dept will do to that company? A reasonable rental company will want to independently verify that their customer has a valid disability placard and has sufficent experience to use the machine safely at Disney prior to renting a machine outside a Disney venue. The rental company absolutely could have a prerequisite of a presentation of a valid state disabled placard to rent their machines for use within Disney.

Disney has plenty of security that knows how to eject someone acting recklessly within their parks.
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:10 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredkap View Post
The regs allow Disney or any public accomodation to ask for the presentation of a valid state issued disability placard, they even add that if the placard has expired than it is not valid. Most people who know that that is the rule will be prepared and comply.

Lets assume there is a shady rental company that tells their patrons to lie about how long they have used a Segway. If their customer has an accident and Disney discovers that the company is telling their customers to lie, what do you think Disney's legal Dept will do to that company? A reasonable rental company will want to independently verify that their customer has a valid disability placard and has sufficent experience to use the machine safely at Disney prior to renting a machine outside a Disney venue. The rental company absolutely could have a prerequisite of a presentation of a valid state disabled placard to rent their machines for use within Disney.

Disney has plenty of security that knows how to eject someone acting recklessly within their parks.
I doubt that you will find people checking for proof of disability before renting the Segways. In fact, if the person needs it for a disability, it would be illegal to ask for proof of a disability, just like Disney cannot ask for proof of a disability before renting out an ECV or wheelchair. And a disability placard does not mean anything other than the person cannot walk more than 200 feet without some kind of assistance or is blind etc... I had a wheelchair for months before getting my disability placard. Some people do not have one because they live in cities and do not drive, etc.

Asking if a person has experience with a Segway is perfectly legal and SHOULD be asked. I doubt, however, that many companies will. I am guessing that many companies that already rent wheelchairs and ECVs will just add Segways to their websites...
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:58 PM   #82
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Personally I think it is kind of like the difference with using a manual wheelchair and a power wheelchair. Most of the people who use a power chair have to have experience with it before renting from an outside company. Does that stop me a person who has never used one from renting one? No. I can lie and say that I have experience and the company has to take my word on it. I think the same will go with the Segways and rental companies. Anyone who wants to rent one will be allowed to if they have the cash. A company will have no way of knowing whether or not I know how to use one safely. They might even just have you get on and show them you can ride a bit (anyone who has done one of the tours could bluff their way through this. It doesn't mean that they are experienced or have any right on the thing unsupervised), then leave and the person is on their own. No real safe way to judge how it can be safely rented to anyone, without going against ADA laws and asking for proof of disability and proof of experience.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:15 PM   #83
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The new regs create two tiers of mobility devices. Tier one are devices designed predominantly as mobility devices which retain the present legal protections and tier two which predominately covers Segways which are devices that were not predominately designed as mobility devices but are used as mobility devices by some of their users. Tier 2/Segway users are permitted access under the new rules where they must provide a valid state issued disability placard or may give a verbal representation not contradicted by visual observation.

A business renting Segways for use within Disney would want to verify that their customer and machine are not turned away at the door. They would be within their rights to request a copy of a state issued disability placard. They would be within their rights to verify that the potential user has sufficient experience to use the device within the Disney parks. I would guess that those that want to use a machine without presenting a placard might have their experience verified more carefully. Disney could have all Segway users stop by their Segway tours location and be verified by the staff there. At this point in time there are probably less than 100 requests per year from qualified individuals to use a Segway within both Disneyland and Disney World. This is very manageable.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:26 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredkap View Post
The new regs create two tiers of mobility devices. Tier one are devices designed predominantly as mobility devices which retain the present legal protections and tier two which predominately covers Segways which are devices that were not predominately designed as mobility devices but are used as mobility devices by some of their users. Tier 2/Segway users are permitted access under the new rules where they must provide a valid state issued disability placard or may give a verbal representation not contradicted by visual observation.

A business renting Segways for use within Disney would want to verify that their customer and machine are not turned away at the door. They would be within their rights to request a copy of a state issued disability placard. They would be within their rights to verify that the potential user has sufficient experience to use the device within the Disney parks. I would guess that those that want to use a machine without presenting a placard might have their experience verified more carefully. Disney could have all Segway users stop by their Segway tours location and be verified by the staff there. At this point in time there are probably less than 100 requests per year from qualified individuals to use a Segway within both Disneyland and Disney World. This is very manageable.
So ANYONE could use a Segway in the park by simply saying "I need one". The point many are trying to make here is who at Disney (or any other park for that matter) is qualified or will actually tell a guest no based on "visual observation"?

As far as "probably less than 100 requests" a year...... What is this based on?
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:53 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwinfred
With regard to the "keeping it real part" if you have read the new reg's closely you will notice that it gives the venue a little more latitude in determining disability. The truth is that a person with a disability who is not trained to use the Segway would rarely if ever choose to rent a Segway over a scooter. And candidly an untrained user presents more of a risk to themselves than to others.
I don't think the concern is with disabled Seqway users. I think the concern is the fakers. How do you safely chase down someone speeding on a Segway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredkap
The new regs give Disney the right to ask if you have a state issued disability placard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsksomeday
The right to ask if they have a placard. but they can't ask to see proof that I am aware of. If it is just the right to ask anyone can say "yes I do have a placard".
See, that standard makes no sense to me. Someone with no vehicle and no access to a vehicle won't have a state-issued disability placard. Its sole purpose is for parking. On the other hand, my sibling and my dad each had one, yet neither of them should ever have gone near a Segway!
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:06 PM   #86
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Asking for a disabled parking permit makes no sense. My parking permit would be back at my car in the handicapped parking spot.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:06 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredkap
The regs allow Disney or any public accomodation to ask for the presentation of a valid state issued disability placard,
This makes no sense to me. How can I park my car in a handicap parking space if I have to present the placard to use a Segway as my mobility assistance device in the park? What if I have a plate and not a placard?
Quote:
They would be within their rights to request a copy of a state issued disability placard.
Really? A copy isn't valid anywhere else.
Quote:
Lets assume there is a shady rental company that tells their patrons to lie about how long they have used a Segway.
You know this is the World Wide Web, where information spreads faster than wildfire, right? There are ALREADY websites with detailed descriptions how to change out the keys so the fast keys look slow, along with what the abled need to say and do to use Segways in the parks. No rental company needs to do anything shady. Human nature has THAT covered.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:53 PM   #88
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Look folks Disney isn't an island if this nightmare you envision were going to happen why hasn't it already happened at Universal they've allowed Segways for years!

No issues at all Nada!
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Old 07-30-2010, 11:01 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwinfred View Post
Look folks Disney isn't an island if this nightmare you envision were going to happen why hasn't it already happened at Universal they've allowed Segways for years!

No issues at all Nada!
Again apples to oranges. Universal is in no way as accessible as Disney and has fewer guests per year.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:28 AM   #90
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I am going to close this thread at this time because there has been some argument (which I deleted).
It may be opened back up after KPeveler and I have a chance to discuss it.

For right now, I am leaving with some links to past threads. The issues are different, but there are quite a few interesting facts and interesting discussion:
Segway discussion June 2009

Segway discussion October 2007 (with a link in the first page in my post to an earlier thread).
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