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Old 07-26-2010, 09:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Jett View Post
I am unclear as to whether the new rules were actually adopted today, or just posted for public comment today.

A link to the full text of the "Final Rule" has been added to the thread I started on the podcast board tonight. (Link in original post above)
The rules were released today. Other being the 20th anniversary of the ADA, today is of no significance.

The justice department rules take effect six months after they are officially published in the federal register. It usually takes about a week or two to get something like this published in the federal register. These are so long, it might take a little more time.

These should not be confused with the proposed ADA regulations that were published in the federal register today.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:13 PM   #17
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People already climb on unattended wheelchairs and ECVs....I can already sense problems when someone tries to use one or knocks it over.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:26 PM   #18
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Thanks for letting us know and for calling in a legal expert for us

I deal with a lot of the same kind of rules/guideline/opinions in health care that are actually the full force of law. Similar things.

Some of the stuff sounds quite reasonable in the ADA explanation until you get to thinking about it. For example, it may seem like a small thing to get rid of the definition of “common wheelchair” that was in the law that designated a size and weight for the “common wheelchair” until you realize that no matter what the definition says, the wheelchair lifts on buses can only hold a device of a certain size, that the lift can only hold a maximum of 600 pounds and that the ramps are only designed for up to 800 pounds. The new definition doesn’t change the equipment, but makes buses need to accommodate wheelchairs (to the new definition) whatever size of weight they are. With no actual definition to measure against, it also makes if difficult for bus drivers to deal with guests with devices that are larger than the equipment can handle.
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by dclfun View Post
I'm with you 100%. I don't think they should be allowed at Disney. I have enough trouble stopping my chair when people dart in front of me, there are often huge crowds with small children, and there is no way for a CM to determine someone's driving ability and whether or not they can operate a Segway safely in such a crowd with unpredictable foot traffic. I can't even imagine someone who might have impaired judgement, vision, etc. possibly driving a Segway that goes up to 12 MPH. What might be good for a few guests who would want to use one is not a good idea for all the other guests in the park.---Kathy
A CM determining someones driving abilities? The only full force run-into situation I've been it at The World has been with a Segway. Being driven by a CM that drives it as part of the job. With me seeing him coming, seeing how his driving 'capacities' were, stopping a long distance away, with an almost totally open walkway in World Showcase and the CM still somehow having the talent of running into me full speed.

Yeah, no, I'm not somebody that'll advocate Segway usage in these kind of places.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goofieslonglostsis View Post
A CM determining someones driving abilities?
Jack posted an interesting role-playing question on the podcast board:

http://www.disboards.com/showpost.ph...18&postcount=5

The role-playing question helps further explain the rule in plain English.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueM in MN View Post
Thanks for letting us know and for calling in a legal expert for us
You are welcome.

I cover this issue for the podcast, and figured that people here would be interested too.

I post stuff, and Jack makes it make sense.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:51 PM   #22
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I thought you guys cared about people with disabilities

A veteran that lost a leg in Iraq or Afghanistan above the knee wants to come to Disneyland. He uses his Segway every day and just wants to be able to go the long distances and you guys have no tolerance. The new rules allow Disney or other venues to limit the Segways to be used at walking speed, similar to a car going 30 mph in a residential area even though a car can go over 100 mph.

The US Dept of Justice's Civil Rights Division has included in their explanations their objections to Disney's position. The fear of Segways is not much different than the fear of electric wheelchairs was 20 years ago - the fear is not based on facts.

Whether Disney continues to fight Segways or not, Disney's case has become much harder. These new rules take effect in 6 months.

Before you guys continue to blast a disabled Segway user, try to meet one and understand where they are coming from.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:03 PM   #23
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Why cant he use an ECV?

I've met plenty of disabled Segway users, and told them exactly what I think.
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Old 07-27-2010, 11:20 PM   #24
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Each person has unique issues

One guy had his pelvis crushed and now has a titanium pelvis. It hurts when he sits. Another has disc problems that are alleviated by standing. Sitting all of the time is not good for organs such as the kidneys and digestion.

Others prefer to use a mobility device that they use 365 days a year so that they are safer around children and other people. A crowded space is not the place to use a device that you aren't familiar with. These are not Disney employees that have been using the Segway for a relatively short period of time but experienced users. An experienced Segway user can "stand" still in a tight crowd for an hour or longer, lines are not a problem.

I won't presume to tell you what type of chair is appropriate for you, why would you feel it appropiate to tell others what their mobility device should be?
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:25 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredkap View Post
One guy had his pelvis crushed and now has a titanium pelvis. It hurts when he sits. Another has disc problems that are alleviated by standing. Sitting all of the time is not good for organs such as the kidneys and digestion.

Others prefer to use a mobility device that they use 365 days a year so that they are safer around children and other people. A crowded space is not the place to use a device that you aren't familiar with. These are not Disney employees that have been using the Segway for a relatively short period of time but experienced users. An experienced Segway user can "stand" still in a tight crowd for an hour or longer, lines are not a problem.

I won't presume to tell you what type of chair is appropriate for you, why would you feel it appropiate to tell others what their mobility device should be?
Because until this rule is law, a Segway is NOT an approved mobility device and as such Disney did not have to let them in.

I expect Segways to NOT be allowed in any queues or attractions, as those are not "pedestrian" areas (there are already many queues in which wheelchairs of a certain size or type and ECVs are not allowed in - there is a reason I do not ride Pirates anymore!). There are also restrictions about height and body shape to get on rides, and people who are unable to ride due to height restrictions are NOT allowed in the queue. So all these people you suggested if they cannot walk for the queues are going to have to transfer to a wheelchair when they get to the queue. Or not ride. This ruling will just make things more complicated.

And it is not the experienced user that worries me. It will be all the people who rent one "for fun" from the companies that will spring up over the next 6 months.

I am also pretty sure that any place where a CM has to move the wheelchair from entrance to exit will not allow Segways, since a CM would not know how to move one. So they will have to park it at the exit and either walk around to the entrance and wait in the queue, or take a wheelchair...

The reason you are the very first person on this board to support the use of Segways in the parks is that pretty much all of us were offended by the wording of the people behind the original lawsuit. They called the use of wheelchairs "demeaning." Since most of us here use wheelchairs or ECV or who have family members who do, we are offended since we are not "demeaned" by our way of life.

Yes, you should not choose what wheelchair I use, but you DO have the right to ask places you go not to allow me to use unapproved mobility devices, such as Segways or my PT Cruiser. my car is easier to use and more comfortable than my wheelchair - can I use that on Mainstreet? What about a 2-person golf cart since my wife also has problems walking too long?

Yes, Segways are now going to be "other mobility devices" but we have to be careful how we define things... And what language we use...

Just a question - a 6'6" tall person get a segway, which makes him 7'6" at least. Are the bus doors tall enough? Including a lift bus? What happens then? I suppose the person has to get off and allow the person to walk on, and a member of their party get the Segway on. A bus driver is not allowed to move the mobility devices on.

How does one secure a segway on the bus? It must be tied down and the person must sit in a regular bus seat. The person "holding on" would not be acceptable for a device that tall and heavy.

A bus is not a "pedestrian area" and I am not sure if there is anything in that new law about public transit. Can anyone figure that out for us?

The law also says that the device must be able to be safely stored (as in at the end of the ride) - that rules out a lot of rides that do not have room to store them - even RnR puts the ECVs all the way at the exit ramp past the store, so the person with one leg will have to walk that far.

I will NOT be okay with them allowing people to park a Segway in the handicapped spots in the theatres and then sit in a regular seat - those spots are for people who CANNOT transfer, and obviously the person cannot stand on their segway the whole time (it will be a safety issue during 3D shows especially) and sometimes the accessible seating is in the front of the theatre, so THAT will not work.

These are just the issues I can come up with within 10 minutes of getting up...
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:53 AM   #26
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Upon reflection I am sure the doors on the monorail are too short for a person on a segway - so people with segways at hotels needing to go to MK will have to hope the boat is running...
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:41 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredkap View Post

Before you guys continue to blast a disabled Segway user, try to meet one and understand where they are coming from.
I went back and found my previous response to this:

http://www.disboards.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=48

Quote:
I won't presume to tell you what type of chair is appropriate for you, why would you feel it appropiate to tell others what their mobility device should be?
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.ph...8&postcount=11
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:02 AM   #28
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Concerns

The people that filed the original lawsuit were not part of the mainstream Segway disabled community. Note that those people were willing to settle for money to them with a provision that no one else would ever be permited to use a Segway at Disney.

Many Segway users use both their Segways and wheelchairs and there is a respect for all persons with disabilities.

A Segway platform is 8 inches above ground, increasing the height of the 6' 6" man to 7' 2". When confronted with low obstacles most users can "duck". An above the knee amputee can walk just not for long distances.

Regarding bus travel, those rules are already in effect. A Segway user normally dismounts while the Segway is lifted and he is responsible for securing the machine appropriately.

The Segway disabled community has no desire for any rental companies to rent machines to poorly trained users. I personally don't see a business able to last long term with that type of business model.

I don't know what all of the fine points should be of a new Disney policy but lets relax and realize that all those with disabilities care about disability rights and want things done appropriately.
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredkap View Post
The people that filed the original lawsuit were not part of the mainstream Segway disabled community. Note that those people were willing to settle for money to them with a provision that no one else would ever be permited to use a Segway at Disney.

Many Segway users use both their Segways and wheelchairs and there is a respect for all persons with disabilities.

A Segway platform is 8 inches above ground, increasing the height of the 6' 6" man to 7' 2". When confronted with low obstacles most users can "duck". An above the knee amputee can walk just not for long distances.

Regarding bus travel, those rules are already in effect. A Segway user normally dismounts while the Segway is lifted and he is responsible for securing the machine appropriately.

The Segway disabled community has no desire for any rental companies to rent machines to poorly trained users. I personally don't see a business able to last long term with that type of business model.

I don't know what all of the fine points should be of a new Disney policy but lets relax and realize that all those with disabilities care about disability rights and want things done appropriately.
First: there are businesses already in existence which rent ECVs to completely untrained renters who drive them dangerously, and some of them do not have disabilities but just want a "cool toy." I expect these companies to buy a couple dozen Segways for people (with disabilities) to rent if they do not want to travel with their own. What will stop people who have never driven one (with or without a disability) from renting one for the parks?

Second: I find your final sentence confusing. Do you think we here on this board are not disabled and do not care about disability rights? Do you think because we think Segways in the parks are dangerous we are somehow against rights for the disabled? I think I am confused by what you meant.
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:25 AM   #30
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Regarding bus travel, those rules are already in effect. A Segway user normally dismounts while the Segway is lifted and he is responsible for securing the machine appropriately.
How can a Segway be secured on a crowded Disney bus?

Also, I agree that the Segway can go slow, but there is no guarantee that EVERY Segway user WILL go slow. What would be a safe speed limit for Disney to impose on Segways? How would Disney enforce such a speed limit?
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