Disney Information Station Logo

Go Back   The DIS Discussion Forums - DISboards.com > Disneyland > Disneyland (California)
Find Hotel Specials & DIScounts
 
facebooktwitterpinterestgoogle plusyoutubeDIS UpdatesDIS email updates
Register Chat FAQ Tickers Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-05-2014, 01:42 AM   #1
davolarcini
Earning My Ears
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Layton, Utah
Posts: 32

A challenge to all that don't like Star Wars or Marvel in the parks

I was thinking today about the several podcasts I listen to and the threads I have read bemoaning the fact that the Disney company, which owns Marvel Comics and Stars Wars properties are increasingly growing those property's presence in DLR and DL in particular.

I have a serious challenge, not to start an unproductive argument but a debate to question this reaction to 'non-traditional' Disney properties.

Here is my argument in the affirmative...feel free to respond, politely, remembering we are all friends here.

Disneyland and Disney in general is about fantasy and escapism for children and adults who like to act like children. The many movies and properties that originally started in the Disney catalog have presented a great collection of children's stories and heroes.

Many of these movies are about female characters, now referred to as Disney Princesses, and they tend to slant female. Now I hear you saying, 'What about Jungle Book, Fox and the Hound, Aladdin,...etc, etc'. Yes there are male protagonists, but they aren't the ones me and my friends pretended to be when we were 10. When I was 10-13 years old me and my friends (this means me and a bunch of smelly, loud boys) pretended to be powerful superheros. I remember being the Hulk, Captain America, and even more obscurely, Black Panther and Union Jack.

We wanted superpowers, we wanted to MAKE THINGS HAPPEN. Beat the bad guys.

We never played for the goal of 'getting the girl to fall in love with us', it was to defeat the bad guy and make wrongs right, to save the city.

My point is that Marvel Superheroes provided that escape for me and made me, a geeky boy in a tough neighborhood (Well, as tough as Utah gets in the 70's), they made me feel powerful, in control and even safe.

As a parent I want to share that with my kids, in particularly my sons, although my daughters are force fed geek culture as well.

Disneyland is all about escaping to a world where 'your dreams come true'...but we seem to over-define what dreams are allowed to come true to only mean 'authentic Disney property'...my dream isn't Alice in Wonderland, or even Pirates of the Caribbean...my dreams were of power and might for right, Marvel gave that to me.

Then we add in Star Wars, I breathed that property in my youth. I recreated the compactor scene in my room, I dreamed of having the 'force'. I watched the Jedi Training Academy on my last trip to DLR and wished, so very much, that they had a robe for a 6'6" guy. (they didn't...sigh). I wanted a light saber, a speeder, a droid for goodness sake, or a blaster, where is my blaster!!!!

These two properties fit the mold of what Walt made. For him he wanted to escape to the Main Street of his youth, a Jungle Cruise, Pirates, Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, and the future, the precious vision of the future started for him by Jules Verne, HG Wells and Isaac Asimov and continued by events like the World's Fair. He was a futurist, in the best way.

Add the great fables he brought to life, he painted pictures for the viewing crowds of fantasy, of escape.

These new properties are just as much about that and they are more for a young restless boy, like the princesses are for the girls. Feel free to argue with me about it, but my 11 year old sons favorite ride in Disneyland was Star Tours, with no prompting from me (mine is still, and might always be, Pirates of the Caribbean).

Last thought, to all the purists out there....begging, 'we need the park Walt envisioned, the one he would be proud of. We must cherish his legacy!'
I am not against this, not in the least, but I think we can't let it mean that we can only have things he touched. Don't get me wrong, we need the Enchanted Tiki Room kept pure. But we need to make room for things that have the Disney Spirit of Fantasy, Good, and Heroes.

My favorite Walt Disney quotes are

"Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."

and

"What we did yesterday will never be good enough again" (paraphrased I think, from what he told the imagineers)

It is that spirit that grows and changes the parks, and we still should.

Indiana Jones didn't ruin the park, neither did Roger Rabbit or Captain EO, Honey I Shrunk the Audience...I don't think bringing in two properties that...

1. Appeal to boys
2. Have the flavor of fantasy and imagination
3. Further inspire the imagineers and executives who handle the parks

I don't think bringing in those properties can do anything but good.

Of course we could stick with gas-powered, carbon spewing, putt-putt cars and pass it off as Tomorrowland! But I would prefer they use that space for something more exciting. Something Super
davolarcini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 01:58 AM   #2
disneyismyheart247
Living the California and Disney Dream
 
disneyismyheart247's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 164

I don't care about Marvel or Star Wars being presented in Disneyland, but this talk of turning the majority of Tomorrowland into Star Wars Land sickens me. Turning an original land into Star Wars? Shame, shame, shame. No. They need to stop being lazy and come up with some good concepts for Tomorrowland. If they tried, Autopia could be futuristic. Take out the Pixar rides and replace them with innovative, original attractions. Get rid of the PeopleMover tracks, the arcade games (even though I kind of like them) and Innoventions for God's sake. Innoventions is the worst attraction at Disneyland, IMO. There's your space. Star Wars taking over is the wrong answer, IMO, and I will be devastated if Disney decides to get rid of Autopia for Star Wars.
__________________
To live would be an awfully big adventure!
disneyismyheart247 is offline   Reply With Quote
|
The DIS
Register to remove

Join Date: 1997
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,000,000
Old 02-05-2014, 02:21 AM   #3
Gisele
I love honey, but not the sting of bee's
Please do not forget to mail me my chocolate caramel apple before y'all leave
 
Gisele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In the Universal Mind,unless it is Twilight Time
Posts: 16,078

What he/she said! Well up to a certain point.
__________________


~~ Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose ~~ Janis
Gisele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 05:18 AM   #4
SMD
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Los Angeles, Calif.
Posts: 1,644

Every attraction in Fantasyland except for IAWS is based on some property that Disney acquired or licensed and incorporated into their brand. The only Disney princess not at least based on previously published material that I can think of is Merida. I mean, come on, Disney didn't invent Beauty and the Beast and Rapunzel. We all knew those stories before they joined the family. Expanding your brand is what companies do, and right now, Disney's doing it in a high profile way.
SMD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 08:35 AM   #5
HydroGuy
The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules
Inquiring fairy minds want to know: Does Hydroguy like World of Color?
 
HydroGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado, USA (formerly SoCal - now SoCol)
Posts: 14,612

Interesting.

I am all in favor of Star Wars being used in the parks.

Marvel? For some reason it smacks of Universal Studios and Six Flags to me. It does not seem to mix with Disney in my mind. I think Disney would be better off building a more Marvel themed park separately. And fans of Marvel could go there.

As for what is in Disney parks for boys, I think there is a lot and do not agree it is more oriented at girls.

Between Pirates and Star Wars my four boys (now in college and high school) have always felt appeal. They would save money in advance of trips to spend at Pieces of Eight (the store at the DL POTC exit) and Star Trader at DL (where they bought many a light saber).

The Pixar characters also had appeal. Buzz Lightyear, Woody, Cars and Lightning McQueen, Mr. Incredible, and Nemo off the top of my head. And there are rides and parades that build on these characters (except for Mr. I).

Other rides that appeal to boys - Big Thunder Mtn Railroad, Space Mtn and Indy.

At WDW you have have DINOSAUR - a boy ride if there ever was one, Expedition Everest, Test Track and Mission Space (yes, these can have appeal to girls too but hits the sweet spot for boys), Lights, Motor Action stunt show, and Indiana Jones stunt show.

My boys never had trouble connecting with Disney themes, rides, shows, etc. They never had any interest in Marvel until the Superhero movies came out. They have always had interest in Star Wars.

I personally think it would be a mistake to force Marvel characters into current Disney parks. But Star Wars? There has been a long connection there with the ride at and the Star Wars Days at DHS. That fits and should be expanded as much as possible.

__________________
Upcoming:
DLR, July 2014 (DLH) | August 2015 for the D23 Expo | WDW, 2015 May?
Completed:
DLR 11/2013 (Day Trip), 8/2013 GCH (CCI for D23 Expo), 10/2012 CCI, 07/2012 GCH, 08/2011 CCI (D23 Expo), 06/2011 GCH, 09/2010 BWPPI, 07/2010 GCH, 08/2009 (Day Trip), 05/2009 Doubletree Anaheim/OC, 11/2007 (Day Trip), 06/2007 BWPPI, 08/2006 (Day Trip), 11/2005 BWPPI, 08/2005 BWPPI, 07/2003 HoJo's, 07/2000 PPH, 1966-1998 Numerous Day Trips Including... 06/1981 (Grad Night)
WDW 05/2013 Swan, 02/2012 CBR, 03/2011 Dolphin, 05/2008 AKL, 06/2006 FW Cabins
DLR Paris 06/2007 - Newport Bay/Santa Fe/Holiday Inn (solo) - see my Trip Observations
Tokyo Disney Resort 11/2009 - SunRoute Plaza (with DS13) - see my Trip Report (with photos)
HydroGuy DLR Tips Compilation, DLR Abbreviations List, World of Color Superthread
HydroGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 08:37 AM   #6
DharmaLou
Once a Princess, Always a Princess
 
DharmaLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,266

I have no problem with either, and DH is really looking forward to the possibility of either or both being there in the future.

This world is about change, and while it may be tough for purists, I see this all being very lucrative to Disney and not something they would scrap.
__________________
DharmaLou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 10:32 AM   #7
seagodess
DIS Veteran
 
seagodess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 786

I have to agree. While I dont think all Disney is aimed at girls, I think a good majority of it. I mean I see princess stuff EVERYWHERE, yet dont see nearly half as much disney stuff for boys. Sure there are the favorites that are for everyone. Mickey, Donald, Goofy.... then things like Toy story and Cars. Although my son loves all of them and the movies, he doesn't want to play cowboys and space ranger or pretend to be a race car. He wants to be Hulk and Iron Man. Although I'm not a fan of Star Wars, or even superheros all that much and dont think they scream Disney like some other stuff does, its nice to see more things that are aimed towards boys. I know my son is so excited that Captain America and Thor might be there when we go.
__________________
ME DH DS

March 2005- 1st DL trip. My Honey Moon
May 2012- DS's 1st DL trip and 5th Birthday- Trip Report (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2934231)
March 2014- Trip report (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3256794)
seagodess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 11:47 PM   #8
davolarcini
Earning My Ears
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Layton, Utah
Posts: 32

Quote:
Originally Posted by HydroGuy View Post

I personally think it would be a mistake to force Marvel characters into current Disney parks. But Star Wars? There has been a long connection there with the ride at and the Star Wars Days at DHS. That fits and should be expanded as much as possible.

I do think putting them in Innoventions is 'forcing' them into the park. I don't know where they would go but a separate, new park or a whole new land in DCA...but they probably shouldn't be in Tomorrowland...now Star Wars, I am obviously a fan of it being there.
davolarcini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 08:05 AM   #9
bakerudall
Real Boy
 
bakerudall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 496

I'm with Hydroguy. Star Wars has more elements of fantasy in it than Marvel, making SW a better fit for DL. It has more childish characters, more creatures, more masked characters, etc. Marvel is more SciFi because its stories usually feature characters interacting with current society. While it still has plenty of fantasy in it, it feels too "real" to fit in with DL.
bakerudall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 12:38 PM   #10
BSOGfam
Earning My Ears
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 54

I've loved reading everyone's thoughts on this. My childhood entertainment consisted of Disney classics and Star Wars. The two have always been intertwined for me. In that respect, I would love to see what Disney imagineering can do for Star Wars.
I feel the beauty of Disney is that it's gender neutral. I grew up loving Jungle book, Peter Pan and Sleeping beauty. My DS3 loves the movies Cinderella and Toy story. I think part of the problem is that a majority of the marketing is teaching kids they should be princesses or pirates without a lot in the middle.
BSOGfam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 01:48 PM   #11
HydroGuy
The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules
Inquiring fairy minds want to know: Does Hydroguy like World of Color?
 
HydroGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado, USA (formerly SoCal - now SoCol)
Posts: 14,612

Quote:
Originally Posted by BSOGfam View Post
I think part of the problem is that a majority of the marketing is teaching kids they should be princesses or pirates without a lot in the middle.
I would put it differently that they are teaching kids to use their imagination. It is something where the American culture excels and helps us in countless ways including technological innovation and the arts.

__________________
Upcoming:
DLR, July 2014 (DLH) | August 2015 for the D23 Expo | WDW, 2015 May?
Completed:
DLR 11/2013 (Day Trip), 8/2013 GCH (CCI for D23 Expo), 10/2012 CCI, 07/2012 GCH, 08/2011 CCI (D23 Expo), 06/2011 GCH, 09/2010 BWPPI, 07/2010 GCH, 08/2009 (Day Trip), 05/2009 Doubletree Anaheim/OC, 11/2007 (Day Trip), 06/2007 BWPPI, 08/2006 (Day Trip), 11/2005 BWPPI, 08/2005 BWPPI, 07/2003 HoJo's, 07/2000 PPH, 1966-1998 Numerous Day Trips Including... 06/1981 (Grad Night)
WDW 05/2013 Swan, 02/2012 CBR, 03/2011 Dolphin, 05/2008 AKL, 06/2006 FW Cabins
DLR Paris 06/2007 - Newport Bay/Santa Fe/Holiday Inn (solo) - see my Trip Observations
Tokyo Disney Resort 11/2009 - SunRoute Plaza (with DS13) - see my Trip Report (with photos)
HydroGuy DLR Tips Compilation, DLR Abbreviations List, World of Color Superthread
HydroGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 09:05 PM   #12
davolarcini
Earning My Ears
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Layton, Utah
Posts: 32

I want to thank everyone for their replies...I love open forums, especially respectful thoughts...

That being said, this issue of gender I think has spun further out of control than I thought logically tied to what my original thought was. But that might have been my mistake, that might be the natural progression from what I said.

Me and my kids love DLR, or I wouldn't be on a site like this, talking about it. I have two older girls (19 and 16) and two boys (12 and 7). The boys love the parks. But did they love Cars, sure. Did they love Star Tours, you bet. Did they love Jedi Academy, no, because they weren't picked, but we went three times to try....so really they loved it.

My point wasn't that there isn't any thing in DLR for boys....my point was that the imagination play time before and after the parks is never, I'm Winnie the Pooh,....no its my turn..you got to be him last time....Fine then I'm Dumbo....

My point was the wish identification isn't as strong with boys. But the Superheroes and Star Wars does provide that.

The other point that I haven't seen anyone argue or even face, Walt Disney's quote about Disneyland never being finished...only requirement is imagination.

Now I understand there are some that aren't purist, that don't want to see super heroes, because they don't get them. But there are some of us that don't get Pocahontas or why Abraham Lincoln is in the park...but just because that's our opinion doesn't mean that we should ban others..

On the ride/gender identification....
How did Splash Mountain become boys and Matterhorn Nuetral?
How is Dumbo boys?
How is Bambi (the anti-hunting and guns movie) become boys?

I think you made decisions based on the outcome you wanted....I want as many or more boy rides/movies than girl...Abracadabra....LOOK....I am kidding, I just disagree.

But on the issue of AUTOPIA.....anyone who thinks that fun is wrong, wait is that an opinion? probably.

Last time there my 6 year old rode with me and the 11 year old drove himself. As I am enjoying the 'fresh air' (sarcasm intended) and getting annoyed I started to develop road rage for the bad/slow driver in front of me. I started my muttering and grumbling, then a hairpin turn comes up and the driver turns and is heading toward us....its my 11 year old....road rage replaced by embarrassed laugh.
davolarcini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2014, 09:28 AM   #13
HydroGuy
The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules
Inquiring fairy minds want to know: Does Hydroguy like World of Color?
 
HydroGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado, USA (formerly SoCal - now SoCol)
Posts: 14,612

Quote:
Originally Posted by davolarcini View Post

My point wasn't that there isn't any thing in DLR for boys....my point was that the imagination play time before and after the parks is never, I'm Winnie the Pooh,....no its my turn..you got to be him last time....Fine then I'm Dumbo....

My point was the wish identification isn't as strong with boys.
Well as I mentioned I still do not agree with this.

Just look the four original "Lands" of DL.

- AdventureLand
- FrontierLand
- FantasyLand
- TomorrowLand

AdventureLand and FrontierLand appealed more to boys and their imagination.

FantasyLand arguably appealed more to girls.

TomorrowLand arguably appealed more to boys.

To some degree I am equating imagination to your term wish identification. Boys wish they were on an adventure in a jungle, or wish they were pirates, or wish they were Indiana Jones exploring strange corners of the world. They wish they were in the old west on the frontier. They wish they were flying through space to other worlds.

Even in FantasyLand there are chances for boys to identify with being a knight in shining armor or the adventure of NeverLand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davolarcini View Post

But the Superheroes and Star Wars does provide that.
I agree they provide it also. Especially Star Wars.

But maybe I am going back to my boyhood and while I watched Batman, Superman and Spiderman on TV, I never wished to be a superhero. They were not real people - except for Batman I guess.

I would identify way more with just plain heroes who were in some way mortal like me. The Star Wars heroes are people. No superpowers needed except for "The Force" which was not a super power but an extension of something natural (think Yoda).

I remember thinking at 14 years old when I saw Star Wars for the first time that it was just a western movie set in space. I loved westerns and loved Star Wars. For the same reasons.

I suppose you or others can argue I am out of touch in a way from my own boyhood experience and that of my own four sons but IMO Star Wars is a hundred or a thousand times more impactful on boys than Marvel superheroes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davolarcini View Post
The other point that I haven't seen anyone argue or even face, Walt Disney's quote about Disneyland never being finished...only requirement is imagination.

Now I understand there are some that aren't purist, that don't want to see super heroes, because they don't get them. But there are some of us that don't get Pocahontas or why Abraham Lincoln is in the park...but just because that's our opinion doesn't mean that we should ban others..
Yes DL is never finished but that does not mean that anything that involves imaginations fits.

I mean one of my big points of imagination and "wish identification" as a boy was with sports. I wished I could play baseball in the major leagues. Among me and my friends wish identification and pretending we were Steve Garvey or Johnny Bench or OJ Simpson was huge. Way, way, WAY huger in my neighborhood than with superheroes.

Does that mean that somehow that element of boy imagination should be part of a Disney park? How about a new land at DLR or WDW? SportsLand? Where boys can pretend they are sports stars?

I will be the first to admit that to my mind that does not fit with DL. It fits on Little League and Pop Warner fields around the country.

Similarly, the feel I have had about Disney parks since I was three years old does not "fit" with Superheroes. It is not about being purist. It is about being a cultural fit.

All of that is not to say I identify with everything in Disney parks. But heck I do not identify with everything in American culture either. But there are some things that I can see how they are part of our culture even though I do not identify personally, then there are other things that do not fit at all with American culture in the first place. Those are two different things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davolarcini View Post

On the ride/gender identification....
How did Splash Mountain become boys and Matterhorn Nuetral?
How is Dumbo boys?
How is Bambi (the anti-hunting and guns movie) become boys?
The PP who created this list was using a broad brush to make a point and not to try and write something that was 100% defensible. I think his point was valid and it resonates with my nearly 50 years experience with Disney that they have just as strong an appeal to boys as to girls - if not stronger.

I think your point has been the need for more boy oriented rides and themes and stories because they are lacking at Disney parks. I am saying that sounds very odd to me as I have never felt that way in nearly 50 years and thus disagree from my personal experience with your fundamental thesis on this.

It does not mean Disney is complete and should do nothing more oriented towards boys. By all means do it. But I do not think they should do it for reasons of somehow having been lacking in the past or present.

And I do think they need to make careful it fits.

Moreover, Disney realized this when they built DCA. They wanted it to be more edgy. To appeal to a little older crowd. Heck, alcohol is served at DCA. It fits there but it does not fit at DL. So rather than force alcohol into DL they built another park and made it fit. And to me it does.

Superheroes may need to go that direction as I said in my first post. I am not sure how popular it would be if they built a superheroes park. But if they wanted a place to put it then a separate park would be the place.

__________________
Upcoming:
DLR, July 2014 (DLH) | August 2015 for the D23 Expo | WDW, 2015 May?
Completed:
DLR 11/2013 (Day Trip), 8/2013 GCH (CCI for D23 Expo), 10/2012 CCI, 07/2012 GCH, 08/2011 CCI (D23 Expo), 06/2011 GCH, 09/2010 BWPPI, 07/2010 GCH, 08/2009 (Day Trip), 05/2009 Doubletree Anaheim/OC, 11/2007 (Day Trip), 06/2007 BWPPI, 08/2006 (Day Trip), 11/2005 BWPPI, 08/2005 BWPPI, 07/2003 HoJo's, 07/2000 PPH, 1966-1998 Numerous Day Trips Including... 06/1981 (Grad Night)
WDW 05/2013 Swan, 02/2012 CBR, 03/2011 Dolphin, 05/2008 AKL, 06/2006 FW Cabins
DLR Paris 06/2007 - Newport Bay/Santa Fe/Holiday Inn (solo) - see my Trip Observations
Tokyo Disney Resort 11/2009 - SunRoute Plaza (with DS13) - see my Trip Report (with photos)
HydroGuy DLR Tips Compilation, DLR Abbreviations List, World of Color Superthread
HydroGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 02:49 PM   #14
starjazz
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 419

Quote:
Originally Posted by davolarcini View Post
On the ride/gender identification....
How did Splash Mountain become boys and Matterhorn Nuetral?
How is Dumbo boys?
How is Bambi (the anti-hunting and guns movie) become boys?

I think you made decisions based on the outcome you wanted....I want as many or more boy rides/movies than girl...Abracadabra....LOOK....I am kidding, I just disagree.
Just in my defense a little here....I couldn't have been any more misrepresented. In my list of rides, I called Splash neutral and Matterhorn boys. If you'd like to add Splash to the list of rides that connect with boys, great, it makes the list longer.

In the rides list, I called Dumbo neutral.

In the movies list, I called both Bambi and Dumbo neutral.

So not one of those was quoted correctly. Now, all of that said, I honestly did not set out to prove which gender was more represented. I was just curious, because I have two little girls, and to them, Disney is all about princesses, but I have a lot of great Disney memories and don't recall it being "girly", so I truly wanted to see how it played out. It was just my assessment. As I mentioned in the post, any of them in and of themselves, can be argued one way or the other, but I don't think the over all point that there are certainly enough boy-oriented rides is too far off. There's enough of both - thats why its the most popular theme park in the world.
starjazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 04:21 PM   #15
bcla
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 2,872

I dunno. I recently saw something from DC Comics for Valentine's Day showing Superman making out with Wonder Woman. I guess a little superhero romance might be trying to straddle the divide.
bcla is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

facebooktwitterpinterestgoogle plusyoutubeDIS Updates
GET OUR DIS UPDATES DELIVERED BY EMAIL



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Copyright © 1997-2014, Werner Technologies, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

You Rated this Thread: