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-   -   How to figure out original purchase price? (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3128133)

Galun 06-17-2013 04:22 PM

How to figure out original purchase price?
 
I have seen some discussion threads where the original purchase price is compared to the resale price. I am wondering where I can find the original purchase price?

I know how to get to the orange county comptroller website to look up deeds. If it's a resale contract they usually list the new purchase price in the recorded deed and I can calculate the per point price from there.

But how about the original contracts from Disney? I have not seen any that list the purchase price. They do list the deed doc tax and number of points. With current deed doc tax of $0.7/$100, do you estimate the purchase price by deed doc tax x 100 / 0.7? Had the deed doc tax rate changed over the years?

Thanks!

drusba 06-17-2013 05:17 PM

You can go to the top of the thread page on this site on which your thread appears, i.e., the Purchasing DVC thread page and click on "Sticky: DVC Resource Center." In there is a history of DVC that includes a history of purchase prices as new. You can compare that to the date of the first deed for a contract if you can trace back to the original owner on the Comptroller's site, which you should be able to do. Note that will give the regular DVC purchase price before accounting for any price reduction incentives that DVD had at the time but it will give you an idea of the approximate price. You will not find the original purchase price on the Comptroller's website because the original deeds do not provide it and the contracts for sale are not filed. However, note that for about the first 12 years or so of DVC, before SSR, the incentives for purchasing, when there were any, were not dollars off the sale price. Instead what Disney would do is give you a $10 per point price reduction ($15 for VB and HH at one point and only $5 for BCV for much of for much of its original sale time) if you gave up your first year points to DVD (which it would use for rentals). Thus, it is difficult to even call that a price reduction.

Galun 06-17-2013 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drusba (Post 48707372)
You can go to the top of the thread page on this site on which your thread appears, i.e., the Purchasing DVC thread page and click on "Sticky: DVC Resource Center." In there is a history of DVC that includes a history of purchase prices as new. You can compare that to the date of the first deed for a contract if you can trace back to the original owner on the Comptroller's site, which you should be able to do. Note that will give the regular DVC purchase price before accounting for any price reduction incentives that DVD had at the time but it will give you an idea of the approximate price. You will not find the original purchase price on the Comptroller's website because the original deeds do not provide it and the contracts for sale are not filed. However, note that for about the first 12 years or so of DVC, before SSR, the incentives for purchasing, when there were any, were not dollars off the sale price. Instead what Disney would do is give you a $10 per point price reduction ($15 for VB and HH at one point and only $5 for BCV for much of for much of its original sale time) if you gave up your first year points to DVD (which it would use for rentals). Thus, it is difficult to even call that a price reduction.

Great, thanks. I wasn't aware of historical purchase information in that sticky. Based on the date of the original contracts, I actually got the correct purchase price based on the formula on deed doc tax ($0.7 per $100).

If there was a "dollars off per point" incentive, would it have been reflected in the purchase price? Say AKV now is $150 per point and $15 incentive, and the buyer gets 200 points. Would the deed tax be calculated from $30k or $27k?

iluvthsgam 06-17-2013 06:12 PM

The deed doc tax historically:

7/1/87 - 5/31/91 - $.55
6/1/91 - 7/31/92 - $.60
8/1/92 - present - $.70

Everything besides the original OKW purchases will be $.70. If any deed (Disney or resale) lists the deed doc tax all you do is divide by 0.70 and multiply by 100 to get your original purchase price. If it also shows the # of points you can calculate the price per point.

Note: This will not give you the exact price, but very close. Because the deed doc tax is $.70 for each part of $100 or part thereof. For example, if the sale was for $10,601, the deed doc tax is 107 * .7 = $74.90. But if you take that $74.90 and calculate the price it comes to $74.90 / .7 * 100 = $10,700. You will always be within $99 of the actual price.

iluvthsgam 06-17-2013 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galun (Post 48707784)
If there was a "dollars off per point" incentive, would it have been reflected in the purchase price? Say AKV now is $150 per point and $15 incentive, and the buyer gets 200 points. Would the deed tax be calculated from $30k or $27k?

I do not know for sure, but the Florida Documentary Stamp Tax is supposed to be calculated on the "total consideration paid, given, or to be paid or given, for the transfer" and "tax is due on the total consideration for the transfer regardless of the consideration shown on the face of the deed or other document that transfers the property."

The deed doc tax would be calculated from the exact $$ amount the buyer paid, including all incentives. It is not how many points did the buyer get, but instead, what is the dollar amount the buyer paid for those points.

Although I did not buy a deed direct so I do not know for sure but I am pretty sure that is how it should be calculated.

Galun 06-17-2013 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iluvthsgam (Post 48707805)
The deed doc tax historically:

7/1/87 - 5/31/91 - $.55
6/1/91 - 7/31/92 - $.60
8/1/92 - present - $.70

Everything besides the original OKW purchases will be $.70. If any deed (Disney or resale) lists the deed doc tax all you do is divide by 0.70 and multiply by 100 to get your original purchase price. If it also shows the # of points you can calculate the price per point.

Note: This will not give you the exact price, but very close. Because the deed doc tax is $.70 for each part of $100 or part thereof. For example, if the sale was for $10,601, the deed doc tax is 107 * .7 = $74.90. But if you take that $74.90 and calculate the price it comes to $74.90 / .7 * 100 = $10,700. You will always be within $99 of the actual price.

Got it. Thanks for the historical info on deed doc tax. This is really an easy way to figure out how much the original owner paid for the contract.

ryanl81 07-09-2013 10:33 AM

Hi

Just working through this myself.

Having been onto the comptroller site I can see that deed tax of $186.90 was applied the original deed.

So am i right in thinking that dividing that figure by 0.70 and then multiplying by 100 = $26,700

On a 300 point contract I equate that to be $89 per point.

Does that sound about right for a SSR contract being purchased in 2003 i presume in advance of the opening?

I am just trying to establish the savings that I have made in buying resale against the usage they have had and whether it represents value for money against the initial purchase.

chalee94 07-09-2013 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanl81 (Post 48905121)
On a 300 point contract I equate that to be $89 per point.

Does that sound about right for a SSR contract being purchased in 2003 i presume in advance of the opening?

stickies are your friend :) :

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2823943

Quote:

Aug 4, 2003 -- $89 per point (SSR Sales begin with $10 discount = $79) with expiration in 2054.
May, 2004 -- SSR opens.
May, 2004 -- $95 per point @SSR, $89 at other DVC resorts.

ryanl81 07-09-2013 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalee94 (Post 48905147)

Thanks Charles.

wdrl 07-09-2013 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanl81 (Post 48905121)
Hi

Just working through this myself.

Having been onto the comptroller site I can see that deed tax of $186.90 was applied the original deed.

So am i right in thinking that dividing that figure by 0.70 and then multiplying by 100 = $26,700

On a 300 point contract I equate that to be $89 per point.

Does that sound about right for a SSR contract being purchased in 2003 i presume in advance of the opening?

I am just trying to establish the savings that I have made in buying resale against the usage they have had and whether it represents value for money against the initial purchase.

You cannot always determine the cost per point based on the document tax amount that appears on the Orange County Comptroller's website. OCC taxes the gross value of the transaction, which is not necessarily what the buyer actually paid. If buyer received a $10 per point incentive and paid only $23,700 for that 300-point deed, OCC would still compute a tax amount of $186.90.

Even if you knew the amounts of the incentives offered, its still very difficult to determine the price paid for a deed. Disney has offered tiered incentives for several years: Full price for 25-49 points; $5 off 50-99 points; $20 points off 320+ points; etc. If you see a deed for 50 points, then you might assume the buyer got $5 off. However, some buyers split their purchase into multiple smaller deeds and still qualify for the larger incentive. If a buyer bought 350 points as seven 50-point deeds, each deed could get the $20 incentive.

Anthony1971 07-09-2013 03:32 PM

To correct above the only promotion for SSR for the first few years or about was the 10 per point for selling your current years points back.
You also will not be able to calculate the price a person paid to DVC as the incentives were always given back as down payment NOT as a reduction in price at least 2005 and before.

iluvthsgam 07-10-2013 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrl (Post 48907446)
You cannot always determine the cost per point based on the document tax amount that appears on the Orange County Comptroller's website. OCC taxes the gross value of the transaction, which is not necessarily what the buyer actually paid. If buyer received a $10 per point incentive and paid only $23,700 for that 300-point deed, OCC would still compute a tax amount of $186.90.

Even if you knew the amounts of the incentives offered, its still very difficult to determine the price paid for a deed. Disney has offered tiered incentives for several years: Full price for 25-49 points; $5 off 50-99 points; $20 points off 320+ points; etc. If you see a deed for 50 points, then you might assume the buyer got $5 off. However, some buyers split their purchase into multiple smaller deeds and still qualify for the larger incentive. If a buyer bought 350 points as seven 50-point deeds, each deed could get the $20 incentive.

I'm not sure this is correct. If you look at the reference sheet issued by the Florida Department of Revenue (source) you will see they state that the tax is:

"The tax rate is $.70 per $100 (or portion thereof) of the total consideration paid, given, or to be paid or given, for the transfer."

and

"Tax is due on the total consideration for the transfer regardless of the consideration shown on the face of the deed or other document that transfer the property."

If DVC was selling SSR for $89 a point, but gave you an incentive of $10 per point off, than the "total consideration paid" for 300 points is $23,700. The tax is calculated on that number - not the $89*300 = $26,700 figure (the arguable "fair market value" or "listing price" of the property).

Unless you have experience otherwise where OCC charges the doc tax based on "list price" or "market value" - the way I interpret it, is the tax is charged on the "actual consideration paid" - this would include the final net price paid after all discounts, incentives, bonuses, etc.

I don't think OCC would compute the tax on $26,700 when the buyer only really paid $23,700. This is manipulating the spirit of the tax and doubt Disney would do this. But please let me know if you have actually seen it done this way - I would be surprised if it is.

wdrl 07-10-2013 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iluvthsgam (Post 48919661)
I'm not sure this is correct. If you look at the reference sheet issued by the Florida Department of Revenue (source) you will see they state that the tax is:

"The tax rate is $.70 per $100 (or portion thereof) of the total consideration paid, given, or to be paid or given, for the transfer."

and

"Tax is due on the total consideration for the transfer regardless of the consideration shown on the face of the deed or other document that transfer the property."

If DVC was selling SSR for $89 a point, but gave you an incentive of $10 per point off, than the "total consideration paid" for 300 points is $23,700. The tax is calculated on that number - not the $89*300 = $26,700 figure (the arguable "fair market value" or "listing price" of the property).

Unless you have experience otherwise where OCC charges the doc tax based on "list price" or "market value" - the way I interpret it, is the tax is charged on the "actual consideration paid" - this would include the final net price paid after all discounts, incentives, bonuses, etc.

I don't think OCC would compute the tax on $26,700 when the buyer only really paid $23,700. This is manipulating the spirit of the tax and doubt Disney would do this. But please let me know if you have actually seen it done this way - I would be surprised if it is.

Yes, I know for a fact that OCC computes the tax on the gross amount. We bought BLT in May 2009 when the base price was $112 a point. Anyone buying at least 160 BLT points at that time was eligible for tiered incentives. For purchases of 160 points, we received an incentive of $8 a point. Larger incentives were offered to buyers who bought 200+ points. In addition, DVD offered an additional $6 incentive if the buyer had a referral from an existing member, reducing the price to $98/point.

However, if you search the OCC database for BLT deeds that were recorded in May 2009, every one will have a tax amount computed on $112/point. Sure, there were probably a few buyers of very small deeds that may have actually paid $112/point for BLT. But the vast majority of buyers, like myself, did not pay $112/point.

Even today, you'll find cases where incentives are not reflected in the tax amount. Since at least May 2013, DVD has offered tiered incentives for AKV purchases as little as 50 points. Those who buy 160 points receive a $12/point credit and a $1,000 developer credit off the base price of $145 (which increased to $150 on June 19, 2013). Yet you'll see that the OCC tax rate is still computed on the $145/point price.

Carl'n'Ellie'sDad 07-10-2013 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony1971 (Post 48908764)
To correct above the only promotion for SSR for the first few years or about was the 10 per point for selling your current years points back.
You also will not be able to calculate the price a person paid to DVC as the incentives were always given back as down payment NOT as a reduction in price at least 2005 and before.

Just wanted to confirm this fact-- we purchased over the phone in November 2004 to take a June 2005 trip, and paid a net of $85/point after declining our 2004 points.

iluvthsgam 07-11-2013 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrl (Post 48920265)
Yes, I know for a fact that OCC computes the tax on the gross amount. We bought BLT in May 2009 when the base price was $112 a point. Anyone buying at least 160 BLT points at that time was eligible for tiered incentives. For purchases of 160 points, we received an incentive of $8 a point. Larger incentives were offered to buyers who bought 200+ points. In addition, DVD offered an additional $6 incentive if the buyer had a referral from an existing member, reducing the price to $98/point.

However, if you search the OCC database for BLT deeds that were recorded in May 2009, every one will have a tax amount computed on $112/point. Sure, there were probably a few buyers of very small deeds that may have actually paid $112/point for BLT. But the vast majority of buyers, like myself, did not pay $112/point.

Even today, you'll find cases where incentives are not reflected in the tax amount. Since at least May 2013, DVD has offered tiered incentives for AKV purchases as little as 50 points. Those who buy 160 points receive a $12/point credit and a $1,000 developer credit off the base price of $145 (which increased to $150 on June 19, 2013). Yet you'll see that the OCC tax rate is still computed on the $145/point price.

That is very interesting because that goes directly against what the State of Florida Reference Sheet says. I didn't look at the statute, but now you made me curious. This means buyers are paying a higher deed doc tax than they should be because it "should" be based on "total consideration paid." Now, I'm curious to know why. Hmmmmmm.


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