The Running Thread - 2016

Slogger said:

Completed my Long Run/Half Marathon today. Needed to run 15 miles today at non race pace today and figured why not make it more fun and do a HM at the same time? What could go wrong?!!!

Got up at 3:30 am this morning to drive to Petersburg, VA for the Petersburg Halloween Half Marathon. About a 2 hr drive. Clear and cold with temps in the upper 30s. The packet pickup was at the old train station in downtown and they had some neat old steam engines on display out front. Petersburg has a lot of Civil War history with it's location on the Appomatox River and close proximity just south or Richmond.

Packet pickup was smooth and even had time to exchange my s'medium shirt for an XL. They were out of Large. Parking was about 100 yards away in vacant field, very convenient. Quick drop off of items to the car and I headed out on the dark and deserted streets at 6:20 am to do my 2 mile warmup. Easy run, and plenty of time to go back to car and get under a blanket to wait for the start.

Start was smooth and on time right after 7. I was a little worried because I had run 7 miles the day before and it had not gone well. But marathon day is coming in 3 weeks and I was determined to make the best of it. Eased into the run and came within 3 seconds of target pace for the first two miles. I tried to channel my inner Dory and kept saying "just keep running, just keep running." Seriously, what could go wrong?

Maintained pace and watched people slowly run past me...."Hey--don't judge me" I wanted to shout......this is a training run! More people passing, I'm just cruising along sticking to my plan. Then a large man in a Cookie Monster outfit huffed and puffed his way past me and I started having bad thoughts. Really bad thoughts. What if I do the rest of the run as a tempo run? That would only be 50 seconds faster per mile and give me confidence for the marathon. I had assured my wife and my coach that I would behave and not do that. But watching Cookie Monster get further and further ahead of me was too much. Made an executive decision to run the remaining 10.5 miles a tempo run and see how long I could hold pace. What could go wrong?

I quickly shifted gears and started running faster. Hello 9:30 pace.....watch out Cookie Monster I'm coming for Y-O-U!! I started passing people including CM and kept going. Miles 4-5-6 flew by. Felt strong, pace good, even ate a gel without slowing down which is hard for me because I can't breathe through my nose very well. (TMI?!!!). I thought as I passed people that I would see them again since I usually am the one to get passed the last few miles when I bonk and run out of gas. But I kept at it, targeting people ahead of me and then "running" them down. Very addicting! What could go wrong?

Mile 7-8-9-10 had quite a few up and down hills, tried to take it easy but didn't want to lose overall momentum. I kept going and started thinking today could be a PR day. Miles 10-11-12 were done in 9:16, 9:09, 9:15 and I knew I would make it. But my mind continues to spin and I thought how great it would be to go sub 2:05 so I kicked it up another notch. Mile 13 was done in 8:38....funny thing is it never felt hard......think I could have gone even faster if needed.

Finished in 2:04:05 which bested my PR by over 7 minutes. Even did a negative split of nearly 4 minutes. Thanks Cookie Monster. Couldn't have done it without you.

Cool shirt and the medal was designed by Twig Sparks from Ink Masters. Really neat. Plenty of pizza, cookies, and beer at the finish festival. All unlimited and free. Went back to the finish line and cheered on the runners as they completed their races. Not sure of the total number of finishers but heard it was around 200. A nice event, great weather, and cool swag. Overall a great day.

In case you were wondering about what could go wrong, well, for once, nothing really did. I might suffer a little with my marathon results in a few weeks but this event was a great confidence booster showing my endurance and overall fitness has steadily improved. Thanks to you guys, my coach, and family for helping me "just keep running."

Thanks for reading and here's a few pics of the event.

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Very cool - congrats on the PR!!! Cool medal! Good luck at the marathon, and pray for a tailwind (and a route that detours around the sand dunes).

LSUlakes said:

Good morning folks. Was feeling a bit under the weather yesterday. Still not 100% and not even sure if I will run tonight or not. Feeling a bit tired still...

QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?

ATTQOTD: For some reason I have not. I know our local running group is planning on doing a costume run this week, but I have trouble making it to the groups run as they happen fairly early in the afternoon.

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After having a bit of a wardrobe malfunction at the Disney marathon (my custom Mickey pants turned out to be a smidge too big and would've slid off if I hadn't tucked them into my running belt, which got me around the course in G-rated fashion but looked Goofy) I was thinking of doing one of the upcoming Halloween 5Ks in my Mickey costume to test my alterations...

LSUlakes said:

QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?

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I've never done anything specifically listed as a costume run. I did, however, run the 5K during Marathon Weekend dressed in an Eeyore onesie and I count that:


Assuming the weather is <65 degrees I am planning on doing it again this year. It was awesome and comfortable before the race but, unsurprisingly, very hot during the race. I wouldn't have wanted to run much longer than 3 miles.

ATTQOTD: When I first started running I did a Halloween 5k. I dressed as a cat - running tights, black running shirt, a cat ear headband and a tail. I lost the ears as some point.

Our marathon training team does the training run on the weekend near Halloween in costume. The costumes I've made for us to wear to MNSSHP each year are made from moisture wicking clothes, so my husband wore his (and will wear this year's on Saturday's run). He was a dalmatian in 2014 - he said lots of people made comments about him chasing cars. I didn't wear mine last year. We were Nemo, Marlin and Dory. My Dory wasn't obvious without the other two, and my fins were ruined on the trip home from WDW. I would have just been in blue shorts and shirt with black accents painted on them. This year my husband will be a lion. We were Simba, Mufasa and Nala. I'm certain running with the mane flapping around is going to be super fun for him. hahahaha.

ATTQOTD: I have done a couple fall runs where people are really dressed up but I have yet to be one of them. They always look so hot to me (like what Barca said above.) I planned to wear a sparkly orange pumpkin outfit last year and the weather was just too terrible that idea was scrapped. Same thing happened with my fall Ditka race, weather stopped my costume plan. So Minnie at Disney remains my only true "costume" run and that was just skirt and hat.
I think my favorite that I saw other people wearing was a group dressed up like bank robbers and they had decorated their camelback/quivers/backpacks as money bags. Was really a cute looking idea for running.

LSUlakes said:

Good morning folks. Was feeling a bit under the weather yesterday. Still not 100% and not even sure if I will run tonight or not. Feeling a bit tired still...

QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?

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Hope you're feeling better! I think a lot of people get sick this time of year - it seems to always happen to me when the seasons change (just getting over a bad cold from last week).

The closest thing I've done to a costume run is running at Disney...the most effort I put into an outfit (I say "outfit" and not "costume" because it wasn't very elaborate) was dressing like 60th Anniversary Minnie at last year's Disneyland Half Marathon. And I honestly did not enjoy "crafting" an outfit so I'm done with that!

LSUlakes said:

QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?

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No costumes for me, though I'm considering a Dopey inspired outfit for the Marathon in January. It would be a purple headband, green shirt, and blue shorts. For me, races are races and I don't want a costume getting in the way.

Miranda said:

Some thoughts based on the above

Galloway's recommendations are definitely no more than 30s walk intervals. The greatest portion of your recovery all happens within the first 30s of it, so you are just slowing yourself down more when you walk > 30s. That being said, I will definitely end up walking > 30s if it's particularly hilly.

I have a hard time running much slower than 12:00 min pace when I'm actually running, too. I'm 6'0" tall with long legs... even when I try to shuffle at my slowest shuffle, I can't really go much slower than that, and it's actually harder for me to run that slow sometimes than it is to move forward faster. I feel like I am plodding along and landing with a lot of heavy downward force on my knees when I try to run that slow. While I certainly have had plenty of runs where my pace was 13:00 or more, the slowdowns all come from walking more than normal.

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So running is pretty basic. Apply a stress and the body responds with an adaptation. Different stresses = different adaptations. The more variety of stresses applied the more different adaptations gained.

For continuous running, there are two basic variables:

1) Pace
2) Duration

You play with these two variables to elicit different responses. Speed work, HM paced work, M paced work, Long Run, Easy running, Recovery running, etc. all elicit different responses.

For run/walk, there are five basic variables:

1) Run pace
2) Run duration
3) Walk pace
4) Walk duration
5) Total duration

You play with these five variables to elicit different responses. But if you continuously stay with the same run/walk intervals then you are always applying the same stress and the same response. When you first start out using this system, you will see gains. Over time though, you will find that your improvement may stagnate. You'll likely increase your total duration training, but might not see much of any differences in improvements. I'd wonder if that might be because you might still be applying the same/or very similar stress, and thus since that adaptation has been maximized there isn't room for improvement until you try other stresses.

Now if you were a continuous runner and running a 3 hour HM, then I'd give you the following training paces:



With 80% of your training occurring at a 15:33 min/mile or slower. But that's an issue because you wouldn't be able to run slower than a 12:00 min/mile. So then we'd have to revisit the five variables to figure out the possible manipulations.

1) Run pace - Fixed at 12:00 min/mile (for your slowest easy runs)
2) Run duration - Manipulable
3) Walk pace - Fixed at 16:00 min/mile (or technically whatever your personal walking pace is. Mine is a 25:00 min/mile, but I'm a really slow walker)
4) Walk duration - Fixed at 30 sec (If we are to believe Galloway, then this is the magic cutoff. Physiologically it's possible that the most benefits are received here, but I would be interested in seeing the raw data that generated this statement. Does anyone know if he quotes a source in a book or scientific article?)
5) Total duration - Irrelevant for the purpose of attempting to figure out how to run slower. It's important for other reasons, just not this one.

So, we see that if we accept Galloway's 30 sec walk premise, and if 12:00 min/mile is the slowest you can run, then the only manipulable variable is the run duration. Here are four different paces slower than a 12:00 min/mile but the average pace per mile is manipulated using only the running duration as a variable. If you do 4 min:30 sec, you get a 12:21 min/mile. If you do 15 sec:30 sec, you get a 14:21 min/mile.





So, this could be one way to help to varying your pacing and getting more easy running in while not pushing too hard. The key to an easy day is that it should feel easy. You should never feel overly tired because of it. You should never be huffing and puffing during it. Your muscles may seem a tad sore in the beginning, but towards the end it should feel like you could run forever.

The key determinant in figuring how to proceed with pacing options is to figure out what deficit you have as a runner. Whatever your deficit, your best path to improvement is to work on that in your 20% hard workouts. Towards the end of the run when using run/walk, which goes first your breathing or the fatigue in your legs? Determining whether it is breathing or muscle fatigue let's us know where we should guide the training. You can also look at a race equivalency calculator. If you're 5K/10K PR is faster than the race equivalent HM PR, then you have the speed to run a HM faster what you lack is endurance (95% people fall here). If you're 5K/10K PR is slower than the race equivalent HM PR, then you have the endurance to run a HM faster what you lack is speed (2% people fall here). If you're 5K/10K PR is equal to the race equivalent HM PR, then you are doing great and should continue to balance both speed and endurance (3% people fall here).

Chaitali said:

@DopeyBadger Wow, that was an amazing breakdown! Thank you so much for sharing the science behind running. Can I ask for input too? My 5k PR is 34:39 and my 10k PR is 1:14:21. But my half marathon PR is 2:56:55. I use run/walk intervals because when I've tried to run a 5k the whole way through, my average time ends up being slower. My current intervals are 2 minutes running to 30 seconds walking. According to the pace calculator, I should be able to do a 2:45 half? I just haven't been able to do that. Now maybe it's just race conditions in that the half's have been hilly or windy/rainy and the 5k/10k was flat... My goal half in December is flat so I'm interested to see how that works out.

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Thanks! Below would be the paces I would suggest you train at if you were to do continuous running.



Your 5K and 10K PR fall in line with each other. But your HM PR is a bit aways. Just from this I would suggest more endurance work. It would seem you have the necessary speed (VO2max) to run the desired 2:45, but that you currently lack the endurance to do it. The endurance comes from Lactate Threshold running and Running Economy. As a run/walker you are very likely already running Lactate Threshold paces (this would be roughly the pace you can race for an hour). So where you'll find the most gains is from working on Running Economy. Running Economy is the bodies ability to stave off fatigue (the ability to maintain the LT at a set pace for longer durations). This comes from more easy running, and more overall time spent running. So my suggestion would be to attempt to run 80% of your runs in the 13:38 or slower pace range. So in summary, your training paces are currently likely too hard. Completing more easy running may allow you to get faster. The two phrases I like are "Don't survive the training, thrive because of it" and "Save it for race day". Overall, the large majority of your training should feel rather easy. You should have very few days where your paces fade at the end of the training run. And additionally, you should find you are faster at the end than the beginning because you're so fresh. If that's not the case, then you're probably running too fast on a normal basis.

So let's say you ran three days a week:

Day 1 - Normal (Tempo) run/walk (2 min:30 sec) at whatever pace you plan to run the HM at. A 2:39:58 is a 12:13 min/mile. If doing 2 min: 30 sec, that would be a 11:32 min/mile run with a 16:00 min/mile walk.



Day 2 - Easy run/walk (30 sec easy: 30 sec walk). For the easy running, try going as slow as you comfortably can. Never huffing/puffing. Just nice and easy. These elicit "active recovery" and "cumulative fatigue".
Day 3 - Long Run (2 min easy: 30 sec). Try running for 2 min as slow as you comfortably can.

If life permits, you may find that this plan would be really easy and you could do more running per week. More running per week = more gains in running economy. This would be accomplished with more Day 2 running.

If you train for run/walk, and then attempt to continuous run a race (or alter your run/walk timing) you will likely find it to be less successful. Because the training elicits certain adaptations, you need to rely on those adaptations on race day. So when you train run/walk, but attempt to continuous run a race you aren't using all of the tools you've built up in training. You've trained your body to be efficient at the ability to clear fatigue with walking breaks. No walking breaks means no clearance of fatigue, which equals a slower time. If I train for continuous run, and then attempt to race using run/walk I would also be less successful because my tools from training are focused on continuous running. As I've said before a big key in determining which is right for you (run/walk or continuous run) is based on your physiological properties. But to successfully know whether you are better at run/walk or continuous run means you have to try it for a large majority of time (at least 4-6 weeks) to allow the body to adapt to it. I'm not planning on run/walking in Spring 2017 per se, but I am planning on incorporating more run/walk type running (speed intervals) to work on my current deficit (speed/lungs).

DopeyBadger said:

A big key to run/walk (and essentially all running) is your Lactate Threshold. Your ability to maintain a pace roughly for an hour. The faster you run past that pace, the more fatigue you build-up. Run/walk is primarily based on Lactate Threshold pacing. The idea is that you run for a brief period of time, then walk to allow your body to clear the fatigue, and then start running again. All runners have unique qualities that we naturally gravitate towards to maximize our abilities. Some people are really good at Lactate Threshold runs, and others are really good at maintaining a single pace for a long duration. These two people may end up having the same average mile pace but approach how to get there differently. Interestingly the person good at LT runs may not be able to maintain the same pace at a single pace, and vice versa the single pace runner may not be able to do the LT runs. What's critical for all of us is to find out what works best for us through trial and error.

As an example, per my calculation my mile race pace is 6:01 and 400m is 1:14 (4:56 min/mile). The fastest mile I've ever done is 6:42. And I've never sniffed a 4:56 min/mile, no matter the distance. I am not good at Lactate Threshold paced runs. I am not a good run/walker as speed intervals (essentially the same as run/walk) are the biggest problem area in my running repertoire. I could run a 8:00 min/mile for 8 miles significantly easier then doing speed intervals of 6:45 min/mile and recovery running for 8 miles. If the above paces are accurate for you, then you are an excellent LT runner and are a great candidate for run/walk.

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This is really intriguing to me! I am so very much NOT a numbers person, so I don't even attempt to figure out my running via numerical data. But I can say that for as long as I can recall, sprinting has always come naturally to me, while long slow distance has alwyas been a challenge. I've chocked that mostly up to exercise-induced asthma, and using an inhaler before running has allowed me to run long distance, but the run-walk method is still critical if I'd like to go longer than a mile. When I do speed work - say, 400m repeats - I run by perceived effort and then compare my time to what the McMillan calculator says I ought to be running for that workout... and I'm consistently faster than what the calculator suggests. On regular (non-speed work) run-walks, I pretty consistently run negative splits. According to McMillan, if I plug in my 5K best, I should run a half-marathon quite a bit faster than my actual half PR. Conversely, if I plug in my half-marathon PR, McMillan says my 5K best should be quite a bit slower than it actually is. So I guess I'm a decent LT runner?

ATTQOTD: I've done "costumes" for rD races, but only using running clothes as a base. I place comfort as priority #1!

LSUlakes said:

QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?

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I have never done a costume run. I wouldn't be against doing one but just never have.

LSUlakes said:

QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?.

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I ran a 5k dressed as an elf a few years ago but I had my running clothes on underneath. It was fun but I was hot by the end of it. Major props to people who run races in big, elaborate costumes. I admire your creativity and dealing with running in something that might not be conducive to racing!

PrincessV said:

This is really intriguing to me! I am so very much NOT a numbers person, so I don't even attempt to figure out my running via numerical data. But I can say that for as long as I can recall, sprinting has always come naturally to me, while long slow distance has alwyas been a challenge. I've chocked that mostly up to exercise-induced asthma, and using an inhaler before running has allowed me to run long distance, but the run-walk method is still critical if I'd like to go longer than a mile. When I do speed work - say, 400m repeats - I run by perceived effort and then compare my time to what the McMillan calculator says I ought to be running for that workout... and I'm consistently faster than what the calculator suggests. On regular (non-speed work) run-walks, I pretty consistently run negative splits. According to McMillan, if I plug in my 5K best, I should run a half-marathon quite a bit faster than my actual half PR. Conversely, if I plug in my half-marathon PR, McMillan says my 5K best should be quite a bit slower than it actually is. So I guess I'm a decent LT runner?

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I would agree with you. You are very good at speed and lactate threshold running. There are multiple types of muscle fibers in the legs that we are predestined with. More recent research has suggested that over a LONG period of time (say 4-6 years) people can alter their proportion of muscle fibers. Some muscle fibers are best for speed and others endurance. Thus, people tend to be naturally gifted at one or the other. From this, it would sound like you are a naturally gifted speed runner. Completing run/walk allows you to maximize your abilities come race day by using your talent.

Because your 5K is better than your race equivalent HM, to become better at the HM you need more endurance. You would need more easy running and more balanced long runs (which tends not to exceed 35% of the weekly mileage). It is entirely possible that you are training too much at the hard end of the spectrum and not enough at the easy end. Although given your predisposition to speed this improvement in HM times may take a significant amount of time as your muscle fibers would transition from speed to endurance.

DopeyBadger said:

Because your 5K is better than your race equivalent HM, to become better at the HM you need more endurance. You would need more easy running and more balanced long runs (which tends not to exceed 35% of the weekly mileage). It is entirely possible that you are training too much at the hard end of the spectrum and not enough at the easy end. Although given your predisposition to speed this improvement in HM times may take a significant amount of time as your muscle fibers would transition from speed to endurance.

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Totally makes sense. I definitely don't do too much hard running these days, other than slogging through brutally hot weather here in FL, but I cold totally do more to work on endurance. If I were motivated, lol! I will say that all of the long, easy training for my first marathon in January paid off in a big PR in a half 6 weeks later - that was unexpected! But truth be told, if I had to choose, I'd pick short, fast runs over long slow ones every time. I don't do speed work to get faster - I do it because it's fun! yes, I am weird.

PrincessV said:

I don't do speed work to get faster - I do it because it's fun! yes, I am weird.

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Don't worry...there's nothing wrong with having fun. And everyone is weird!

I think I fall into the "need to work on endurance" camp which is what I've been doing all summer. I used to have too many speedy short workouts which wasn't helping me get my body to accept longer mileages until we fixed that. And it's gotten better.
For me I found run/walk to be a huge mental barrier instead of physical. The starting and stopping messed with my head more than my body. Running after stopping was mentally tough and I'd have a hard time running again or getting into a flow. So I tried on continuous running and it was very hard for me at first cardio-wise. But when my body got used to it, it just suited me better. My brain could turn off a bit...and once my body felt ok too then it was a good mix. I have a feeling a lot of people could type the same sentences above but reversed. I do like the little boosts that I get from short walk breaks during long runs. But on very short mileages (like a 5k) I have a hard time getting back up to top speed if I stop...so I just ignore water all together. I'm a bit worried about stopping during my long races...having to mentally get myself going again but I know the little breaks will be good for me.

I have not run any Halloween or full costume races, with the exception of my functional Mrs. Incredible marathon outfit & tutu.

PrincessV said:

Totally makes sense. I definitely don't do too much hard running these days, other than slogging through brutally hot weather here in FL, but I cold totally do more to work on endurance. If I were motivated, lol! I will say that all of the long, easy training for my first marathon in January paid off in a big PR in a half 6 weeks later - that was unexpected! But truth be told, if I had to choose, I'd pick short, fast runs over long slow ones every time. I don't do speed work to get faster - I do it because it's fun! yes, I am weird.

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Nothing weird about it. Ultimately at the end of the day, we all do this as a hobby. Very few of any of us will ever get paid to do this. So, if you find one thing more enjoyable in training, then by all means do it. Because training needs to be fun, otherwise you won't want to lace up the shoes to go running.

QOTD: I have never done a costume race/run, and in general, am not a big Halloween person. BUT, my local Thursday night run club is doing a costume run this week, and my plan is to wear my red sparkle skirt, black shirt, and Minnie ears. So, real running gear (for comfort and function), just accessorized a little!

I will say that I would like to do something a little fun for the PHM, but I just haven't come up with the perfect idea yet! I am a nutritionist by training, so was thinking something apple/snow white related? But I haven't convinced myself yet...

@DopeyBadger Thank you so much for the input. I only started running this last July. I've done a whole 2 races (a 5k and that 10k mentioned). The 5k I finished in 43m which was better than my goal of 45. Since then, I've run 5ks during training in 39/40m.

I haven't really tried Galloway but I may and see if that improves things for me. I had been using Jenny Hadfield's run/walk half-marathon training plan with some modifications. That's where I got those longer rest intervals from. Main reason I started with run/walk is I've got a congenital heart defect and didn't want to overdo it. Since then, I've gotten the ok from the dr to do whatever I want (no restrictions), but I didn't really modify stuff because clueless runner here

As far as running at a 12:00/mile, no, it doesn't seem physically possible for me to hit that pace when running out on the road. Feels far far too slow. I am going off lap pace and not the by the second updates on the garmin. I do see how that could be extremely brain taxing. I don't want to micromanage my run. I deal with enough of that at work

ATTQOTD:
I love doing fun races where people dress up. Other than PHM, I've done two where dressing up was a big thing. However, I feel best when I wear running clothes that I try to fit into whatever the race's theme is. I still can't believe the girl I saw running at our local Harry Potter 5K in a floor length dementor costume that was made out of velvet and the race was in JULY! I'm surprised she didn't pass out!

Speaking of costumes at races, it has been brought to my attention that I incorrectly wrote my time as 1:21 at the Haunted Half Marathon I just did!! I couldn't be that fast even in my dreams!! My true time was 2:21- sorry if some of you thought I was a super cool and fast runner for a bit!