Posting on this board

I've tried to take a step back and really look at this situation objectively and logically instead of emotionally. I think that the problem from "our side" (for lack of a better word) is three-fold, and I hope that mods/admins will take the time to understand what I'm saying (not that it really changes your behavior [or that your behavior needs to change]).

1) we have some posts lately that feel like they're attacking our friends or something we love (the podcasters/podcasts), that feel tiresome/pugnacious (not that they necessarily are intended to be) and it gets people riled up to defend the people we view as friends and the thing we love;

2) while the mods are applying the rules fairly (and I'm going with that they are, even though I'm not behind the scenes) it feels like they're not to some, getting people riled up

3) It feels like we're not being listened to when we speak up. I am sure that any emails/messages/reports are read, and I understand your hands are bound by TOS. I was a mod on a large board (approx. 25k daily active users), I understand how important it is to go strictly by what the TOS are, I appreciate that. But I also hope it can be understood or appreciated how frustrating it is when there's something that person A is upset about and they email an admin/mod and are told to ignore it. I understand why that is the answer, so I hope everyone can see the other side too.

So you have people that are upset, feel like they are being treated unfairly, and feel like their concerns are ignored. Is it any wonder there's tension lately?

I think the question is how do you fix it, because to fix it I think all 3 points need to be addressed and using the ignore feature really only deals with #1. I'm going to have to think about this to see if I can come up with any solutions.

I think one thing that could help is if we all think about how we're phrasing things, especially maybe over the next few weeks, and try to make an effort to be kinder or less cutting in posts. The flip side of that is that I think it would help if we all try not to read tone into posts. It's very easy to read a post and hear it as pugnacious, condescending, rude, etc. It takes just as long to write a post giving constructive criticism as it does writing a post that is cutting criticism.

I will be the first to admit that when things are going wrong in my "real life" that it leaks into my posts. Currently I'm dealing with watching my dissertation crumble and my dept. chair being... not-so-magical, and so I'm trying very hard not to let my frustration with that leak onto the boards (seriously, it took me over an hour to write this trying to make sure it wasn't snarky sounding). So that's something I am trying to do to help with the current tension.

TL;DR: People want their frustration acknowledged, let's all try to get along and think about what we write.

Here are a few simple examples:

Example 1
Poster 1: I can't stand the voice of one of the people on the Disneyland podcast so I'm not going to listen to it.
Poster 2: Wow, I don't get that at all. I think they do a good job regardless of the kind of voice they have.
Poster 1: Well, I can't listen because of that voice.
Poster 3: I think that you're wrong. I listen because ...

In the above example Poster 2 disagrees with Poster 1, but doesn't resort to name calling or casts aspersions, even though Poster 2 doesn't agree with Poster 1. (and though such comments might be hurtful to the Disneyland podcasters it comes with the experience of broadcasting, and even negative comments are allowed) Even if Poster 2 or Poster 3 reports Poster 1, these comments do not break the guidelines and so are allowed.

Example 2
Poster 1: I can't stand the voice of one of the people on the Disneyland podcast so I'm not going to listen to it.
Poster 2: Wow, I don't get that at all. Why are you posting on this board if you don't like the show? What a jerk
Poster 3: Poster 1, you must be here only to cause problems.
Poster 4: Poster 1, you need to go away with your unwelcome opinion.
Poster 5: Posters 2,3,4, don't pay attention to Poster 1 who is just here to troll.

In example 2, the responsive posts are making personal attacks against Poster 1, which we now have to address since these comments are against the guidelines. It doesn't matter if we agree with Poster 1 or not. The original post

Example 3
Poster 1: I can't stand the voice of one of the people on the Disneyland podcast so I'm not going to listen to it.
<< crickets >>

In example 3 ... no response. The post fades to page 2 and beyond.

---------------------------

To address NeuroCindy's well thought-out post, I don't think anyone enjoys reading negative comments about them, but since the show is broadcast both positive and negative comments are allowed; and just because a person's comments are unpopular does not give anyone else the right to attack that person on this board. They have every right to disagree, but no rights to attack. There is a moderator whose job is to keep peace, or help keep the board running smoothly, and if she sees a post that goes against guidelines it's her job to let that person know that he/she posted a comment that is not in keeping with the guidelines. The webmasters step in when needed, but the moderator doesn't act without the webmasters backing. If anyone thinks that the moderator has acted incorrectly, then we ask that emails be sent to admin@wdwinfo.com. The webmaster team will then determine if further action needs to be taken.

All we ask is that everyone be courteous to each other. When that guideline isn't adhered to we have to act on it, whether or not we agree. It's not protection, it's following the guidelines, and we would do the same for anyone on these boards whether or not we agree with them or not. Just as many of you are earnest in your feelings, we are just as earnest in trying to do the right thing, whether or not our actions make people happy or unhappy.

What I'm asking, and I'm sure that the other webmasters and moderators would agree, is that everyone work with us to make the board welcoming to everyone, and if you disagree with someone, then post your reply in a respectful manner. It may take stepping back from the board for a bit to cool down, but it's the best path forward. It's not that we are ignoring your frustrations, or that we agree with critical posters, but we are managing per the guidelines set forth by Pete and the administrators for the DIS.

I hope that helps a bit.

WebmasterAlex said:

Let's say someone posted 32 threads in a row all talking about their hair being dyed blue.

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Oh, so now we're discriminating against blue-haired people?? I hope you don't treat the citizens of Pandora like this.

I think it also important to realize that we all come from different parts of the Country and World. How I say things or interpret things is going to be different than how someone in the Northeast may interpret or say things. Part of the beauty of the boards is that we get to co-mingle with folks from all over the place and takes us out of our own "little pond."

I just use this thinking when reading posts, "it is not right, it is not wrong, it is just different."

The internet makes people do things they might not do otherwise. If I walk in to a bar called "Green Bay Packer Heaven" wearing a NE Patriots Tom Brady jersey and start spouting off about how GB sucks and the Patriots will always be better I would not expect a warm friendly welcome. Come to a board full of podcast lovers why expect any different? In both instances there is complete freedom of speech. Now if you are one of the GB fans and you punch me the police may agree with you and call me a jerk BUT they are still going to arrest you. No difference here. Just the facts please

Sean91 said:

Basically to troll is to post something inflammatory with the purpose of gaining a reaction.

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Thanks!

Don't forget: the mods and administrators get paid huge salaries with benefits to police the posts


Except they don't

WebmasterAlex said:

In both instances there is complete freedom of speech. Now if you are one of the GB fans and you punch me the police may agree with you and call me a jerk BUT they are still going to arrest you. No difference here. Just the facts please

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...but sarcastic comments are still a no-no?

Tonyz said:

...but sarcastic comments are still a no-no?

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WebmasterMike said:

4. NO FIGHTING/SARCASM
While we'd like to think that a Disney fan site is always lighthearted, there are times when there are disagreements. Let's face it, there are certain topics that can transform any of us into a raging "Donald Duck." When you sense this is happening, we ask that you step away from the discussion before it escalates into a fight. Just like Mom always said about fighting, we don't care who started the argument and we don't want it on the DIS. (Okay, she didn't say the part about the DIS, but you know what we mean.) No attacking others and no sarcasm please. Either will result in an infraction​

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Wowzers! People must get points errday around here!

I have watched the boards for a while and have more recently actually started posting some. I've noticed some of the threads lately and refuse to post on them. Yes they make me angry sometimes but not responding really is the best way to handle it. I want to say the mods have been handling this issue with class. So thank you!

Atilley said:

I have watched the boards for a while and have more recently actually started posting some. I've noticed some of the threads lately and refuse to post on them. Yes they make me angry sometimes but not responding really is the best way to handle it. I want to say the mods have been handling this issue with class. So thank you!

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And thank YOU for being so understanding and not responding. It helps! I hope to see you around more often.

Princess Jes said:

Wowzers! People must get points errday around here!

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And that is between the Mods, Webmasters, and the people that received points.

The moral of the story is to worry about yourself and leave everyone else to the moderators and the Webmasters.

Just wondering because I did it one time.

How long do points last and are they always on our file? A couple months ago I wrote a post saying I would take my points for being combative and sarcastic then posted it and haven't gotten any points since. I think my only points before that were from just after the cruise line board change. Is that something that stays on our "file" or when they are gone they are gone?

WebmasterMike said:

And that is between the Mods, Webmasters, and the people that received points.

The moral of the story is to worry about yourself and leave everyone else to the moderators and the Webmasters.

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I didn't say it wasn't... Just an observation.
Sarcasm levels are high here, by General posters, mods, webmasters and podcasters alike.

Princess Jes said:

I didn't say it wasn't... Just an observation.
Sarcasm levels are high here, by General posters, mods, webmasters and podcasters alike.

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When we say sarcasm what we are looking for is sarcasm aimed at someone that is really a disguised personal attack. Nobody is going to get points for posting "Disney won't raise their prices yeah, because THAT’s never happened."
If you were to quote a poster and add "Now we know why some animals eat their own children" You are going to get wacked with some points.
Trust me if general sarcasm got you banned I would have been out the door many years ago

Princess Jes said:

I didn't say it wasn't... Just an observation.
Sarcasm levels are high here, by General posters, mods, webmasters and podcasters alike.

Click to expand...

Common sense goes a long way.

WebmasterAlex said:

When we say sarcasm what we are looking for is sarcasm aimed at someone that is really a disguised personal attack. Nobody is going to get points for posting "Disney won't raise their prices yeah, because THAT’s never happened."
If you were to quote a poster and add "Now we know why some animals eat their own children" You are going to get wacked with some points.
Trust me if general sarcasm got you banned I would have been out the door many years ago

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Thanks for the clarification Alex. I mean this in the least sarcastic way as possible: I know I've had discussions where people are confused about what constitutes punishable sarcasm, so it's great to finally get some clarity from someone!

WebmasterMike said:

Common sense goes a long way.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're right, it does!

I got a rude comment earlier somebody said 'DUH' to something I was trying to understand. I am autistic and dyslexic. I was upset but I choose to let it 'hang in the air' as my Mum says. I have too many good things come from these boards. Being housebound and wheelchair bound they are a life line to me. I don't want to feel scared to post.

NeuroCindy said:

I've tried to take a step back and really look at this situation objectively and logically instead of emotionally. I think that the problem from "our side" (for lack of a better word) is three-fold, and I hope that mods/admins will take the time to understand what I'm saying (not that it really changes your behavior [or that your behavior needs to change]).

1) we have some posts lately that feel like they're attacking our friends or something we love (the podcasters/podcasts), that feel tiresome/pugnacious (not that they necessarily are intended to be) and it gets people riled up to defend the people we view as friends and the thing we love;

2) while the mods are applying the rules fairly (and I'm going with that they are, even though I'm not behind the scenes) it feels like they're not to some, getting people riled up

3) It feels like we're not being listened to when we speak up. I am sure that any emails/messages/reports are read, and I understand your hands are bound by TOS. I was a mod on a large board (approx. 25k daily active users), I understand how important it is to go strictly by what the TOS are, I appreciate that. But I also hope it can be understood or appreciated how frustrating it is when there's something that person A is upset about and they email an admin/mod and are told to ignore it. I understand why that is the answer, so I hope everyone can see the other side too.

So you have people that are upset, feel like they are being treated unfairly, and feel like their concerns are ignored. Is it any wonder there's tension lately?

I think the question is how do you fix it, because to fix it I think all 3 points need to be addressed and using the ignore feature really only deals with #1. I'm going to have to think about this to see if I can come up with any solutions.

I think one thing that could help is if we all think about how we're phrasing things, especially maybe over the next few weeks, and try to make an effort to be kinder or less cutting in posts. The flip side of that is that I think it would help if we all try not to read tone into posts. It's very easy to read a post and hear it as pugnacious, condescending, rude, etc. It takes just as long to write a post giving constructive criticism as it does writing a post that is cutting criticism.

I will be the first to admit that when things are going wrong in my "real life" that it leaks into my posts. Currently I'm dealing with watching my dissertation crumble and my dept. chair being... not-so-magical, and so I'm trying very hard not to let my frustration with that leak onto the boards (seriously, it took me over an hour to write this trying to make sure it wasn't snarky sounding). So that's something I am trying to do to help with the current tension.

TL;DR: People want their frustration acknowledged, let's all try to get along and think about what we write.

Click to expand...

I agree with all of this. Especially the point that ignore is not a be-all end-all solution to everything. The reason being is that people are human. Saying "just ignore it!" and expecting people to do that in every instance is not possible. It also is not reasonable to ask. Yes, we are adults. Therefore we should be able to understand nuance, context, and history. We should be able to put others feelings over our right to be rude. We should be more interested in personal growth than winning. See, being offended, bothered, upset, and hurt means that you have a conscience. It means you can tell the difference between something that is actually wrong and something that is right or neutral. Its not weakness to acknowledge feelings and that those feelings are worth trying to understand and accommodate. That is called being mature.

Being mature also means understanding that your experience of the world is not everyone's experience. So, a statement that might seem harmless to you is extremely hurtful and, yes, triggering to another person. All you have to do in that instance is say "oh I'm sorry. I didn't think about that. Can you explain it to me or, if you don't want to want to get into such a personal subject, send me some resources please?". Then it gets resolved without shouting, drama, or hurting someone who is already hurt. This requires the empathy that allows a person to want to find out about other experiences. It means having humility and confidence in yourself to consider another point of view. You still may not agree, but hey, you didn't hurt someone and you learned something. That's far more important than winning. Adults value learning over scoring, after all.

It also requires the ability to tell a credible source from one that isn't, and have the ability to research within those sources. Sadly, I see many people either don't have that ability or don't care to use it. The just say that anyone who is upset is being over-sensitive and a special snowflake. The "just ignore" policy encourages this belief and behavior, and that's bad for everyone. A more nuanced policy would encourage someone to actually Google, for example, "What is a trigger warning and why is it important". They would find hundreds of articles that actually explain it. It would become clear very quickly that its a real thing, that it is not a choice to just not be sensitive, that ignoring triggering comments is sometimes not physically possible and it has absolutely nothing to do with censorship. Yes, there are some people who might take advantage of this and be jerks by trying to police people. But honestly, that doesn't happen nearly as much as people think it does. In just about every case I've seen, the person has a legitimate point. The other person just doesn't want to admit they were wrong and so try to turn it on the victim. And "ignore it" policies reinforce this. The bully has won, and we've hurt an already hurt person more.

And, lastly, saying "ignore it" puts the onus on the hurt person, which is simply not fair, right or logical. It tacitly agrees with the idea that people just choose to be sensitive. The only way someone can choose to ignore someone is if they are choosing to be hurt by them in the first place, after all. If they aren't choosing to be hurt - which is the case - then they can't choose to ignore it all the time, either. Your policy states that personal attacks are not tolerated. I believe you. I also challenge you to research the issues of mental health, trauma, and healing from assaults. It will become extremely clear that articles aimed at tearing down people who need help and are brave enough to ask for it are in fact personal attacks and should not be tolerated.

I also encourage those in charge to look up some of the consequences for boards and even major companies that fail to rein in bullies. Especially Reddit, it's policies, and the real-world effect that ignoring bullies has had on them as a company and on real people. At best, what happens in every case is that the decent people leave the board after a little while. They get tired of being ignored in favor of the 'right to offend' (which is about as stupid as 'men's rights' and just as hurtful to all people). That leaves the board to the bullies and the trolls, and it goes under fairly soon. At worst, the board and its parent company are successfully sued for a lot of money in damages due to cyber-bullying, stalking, harassment or even physical injury or death.

And yes, it is completely possible to make a more nuanced policy based on understanding of the issues at play, critical thinking skills, and basic empathy. Many boards and forums do this. A lot of them have under the FAQ basic explanations of commonly misunderstood issues. They usually list some mental health information, what free speech actually is, links to resources about racism or sexism or whatever, etc. They then require everyone to read it before they can post. Then, when someone says something hurtful, that information is linked again, so the person can re-read. If they then apologize (or not say anything else about it), its dropped. If they keep arguing that's a pretty clear sign they aren't mature enough for the board and are removed. The places that do have "ignore it" policies put it on the mods to do that. If they see trouble brewing they privately email members. They then tell the bully to cut it out, and set up the ignore/blocking feature for their comments. This is sometimes used in place of a ban. The bully can't post at all or have their posts/seen read for a week or so. Then they encourage the victims to block and ignore while the bully is out of the way. They also go back through the bully's posts to see if there is a pattern of such behavior. If they is, they are, again, clearly not mature enough for the boards and are removed completely. If this was a first offense, they are reinstated. Context matters, here. Obviously.

And, no, it doesn't shut down conversation at all. Allowing rampant and unchecked bullying does, though. Also, unless someone came to arrest you, no one is violating your free speech rights by pointing out that you're being a jerk and why that is so. And, free speech has limits anyway. The point is, that despite what eight year old bullies say, words in fact do hurt and can cause real pain for people. People who point this out are not being over-sensitive nor are they asking for special rights. Policies that put the onus on the victim encourage bullying.