Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

Planogirl · Jul 6, 2016

ParkHoppers said:
To me Universal is still an amusement park. The best amusement park there is but still an amusement park. If rides are your most important thing than Universal is tough to beat. But Disney World can be about the rides or not about the rides. Disney resorts can stand alone from all the attractions. At DW you can have a nice laid back vacation with the parks and attractions on the back burner. I don't feel that way about Universal. I also like the massive size of DW. Once you enter the front gates you feel disconnected from the real world which is nice. I just feel DW has a much broader appeal as a whole. Now if your between the ages of say 15 and 35 on average I can see Universal being the most desirable but I feel every age group can find something at DW. I,m 44 so at this point a more laid back Disney vacation is what appeals to me. It's just where each of us is personally coming from. Universal and DW and quite different places IMO and it is hard to compare them. Universal is the best amusement park we will probably ever see but it could never be DW for those who might think it is building up to be just that.

I'm older than you and I think that Universal is currently way more appealing that WDW. Their resorts are nicer and their theming is getting better all the time.

You are right that Universal isn't WDW though. Frankly I hope that it never is because the differences are nice.

peg110 · Jul 6, 2016

I don't think age is the critical issue. Old, Young, thrill, no thrill... It is all an individual and subjective choice. What one person finds as "Nice" someone else finds it to be appalling, and vice versa.

What each of them (WDW and US) need to do is find their niche and then exploit it by doing it better than ANYONE else. The problem is if they each think their "niche" is the same.

I have no doubt that US is a great park but it's not WDW. Likewise WDW is also wonderful, but it's not US. Good thing for us though, because competition is good for consumers.

ParkHoppers · Jul 6, 2016

Planogirl said:
I'm older than you and I think that Universal is currently way more appealing that WDW. Their resorts are nicer and their theming is getting better all the time.

You are right that Universal isn't WDW though. Frankly I hope that it never is because the differences are nice.

Like I said it's a personal choice depending on what you are into. As far as resorts I am a DVC member and usually stay at the DVC around MK. Those are really nice resorts IMO. In some ways Universal kind of reminds me of DL in Cali where civilization is right there outside the parks. DW on the other hand is a remote world away from civilization. Just has a better overall feel to me to feel totally away from the real world without a reminder of it until I am heading back to the airport on my way home. Now this might not matter to other people but it does to me. Different strokes for different folks as I said before.

whiporee · Jul 6, 2016

Planogirl said:
Their resorts are nicer and their theming is getting better all the time.

Not to start an argument, but the only place that's really themed in US (or IOA) is the Harry Potter stuff. The rest of it feels a lot more tossed together than almost anything at any WDW park. Not that it's a bad park or whatever, but I don't know what theming is present there. You've got Minions across the street from Shrek, which is just barely next to the RRR, which then leads into the Mummy. On the other side the Simpsons is right up against MIB, with a big lake in the middle.

Not to say US isn't fun or worth the money or anything of the sort, but I don't think you can compare the overall theming of those parks to WDW.

EveDallas · Jul 6, 2016

peg110 said:
This is my dilemma too, and since I know what WDW has to offer versus US (as I have not been there), I have to go with the "Devil" I Know.

I know what WDW has to offer. That's why I chose Universal. If WDW ever offered a perk like the Express Pass at Uni, I might consider going back.

Planogirl · Jul 6, 2016

whiporee said:
Not to start an argument, but the only place that's really themed in US (or IOA) is the Harry Potter stuff. The rest of it feels a lot more tossed together than almost anything at any WDW park. Not that it's a bad park or whatever, but I don't know what theming is present there. You've got Minions across the street from Shrek, which is just barely next to the RRR, which then leads into the Mummy. On the other side the Simpsons is right up against MIB, with a big lake in the middle.

Not to say US isn't fun or worth the money or anything of the sort, but I don't think you can compare the overall theming of those parks to WDW.

I can compare the theming IMO. I think that several newer areas are well themed and I like the New York area too. I realize that things run together in the Studios but like DHS (originally) I think that the "ride the movies" theme explains that. But as ParkHoppers wisely said, different strokes for different folks.

djohn06 · Jul 28, 2016

I can buy 3 Universal annual passes for the cost of 1 Disney pass. Plus, the kids like Universal better than Disney.

As a DVC member, I love staying in AKL and driving to universal. I get the best of both worlds.

adelaster · Jul 30, 2016

zebsterama said:
Don't get me wrong - my family is shelling out big bucks in about a month ... but if I tried to put my finger on it, it would include the following:

1. Value: Disney parks, Disney customer service, Disney Quality, Disney attention to detail - these were the gold standards that everyone else apired to, people, industries; these were the things patrons were willing to pay a little extra for and felt good paying for it, because they got it - this of all things I think the Disney corporation has destroyed. This concept is now running on fumes - and less people are buying it without reservation.

I'm still buying it because of what I'd like to call "the promise" - see point two.

2. The Promise: Rightly or wrongly perception is reality ... but after a while that only gets you so far. I think (and others I believe would agree) that Disney World and Disneyland were built by Walt Disney to uphold an ideal, most of which revolves around point number 1, and now feels to me like pure greed, unabashed. I'm still forking out big bucks on our upcoming trip, less so because I believe in the Disney corporation, but more so because I want to share that ideal, Walt's ideal (or at least, perceived ideal), that promise, that hope, that nostalgia, with my children. I'm the 5 year old kid in 1975 looking out the window of the monorail as it passes through the Conttemporary thinking Wow!! I want to share that feeling with my children.

Sadly today's Disney is killing that ideal for me. So why am I still forking out thousands for our upcoming trip?

Pure and simple, it's hope. Hope that that promise, Walt's promise, that ideal, is still out there. Unfortunately, I'm hoping, but I'm not counting on it anymore. Many of us might be the last of a generation to hold that same ideal.

It's hard to express the emotion, and in truth - disappointment, I feel in words, but that pretty much sums it up for me. I'm thinking others would agree.

This makes me feel really sad. :worried:

I was really looking forward to experiencing that "gold standard/promise" you describe. Sounds like I might've been born too late and taken too long to earn enough to get there. We can only stay two nights and do one park, but I was hoping it would be at least a little magical. This thread is interesting, but really depressing.

rteetz · Jul 30, 2016

adelaster said:
This makes me feel really sad.

I was really looking forward to experiencing that "gold standard/promise" you describe. Sounds like I might've been born too late and taken too long to earn enough to get there. We can only stay two nights and do one park, but I was hoping it would be at least a little magical. This thread is interesting, but really depressing.

You'll have a great time, but with everything over time things change. Not everybody likes the change nor is every experience the same for everyone. I might go to MK and have a bad experience with cast members but then you go the next day and you have no problems. Everybody has a different experience.

LAS2AMS · Aug 3, 2016

adelaster said:
This makes me feel really sad.

I was really looking forward to experiencing that "gold standard/promise" you describe. Sounds like I might've been born too late and taken too long to earn enough to get there. We can only stay two nights and do one park, but I was hoping it would be at least a little magical. This thread is interesting, but really depressing.

You weren't born to late or took too long to get to WDW -- let's make something clear: WDW is just as magical as it has ever been. It's a family resort and many people have fond memories of going to Disney as children and/or bringing their children to Disney. People get upset because "it's not the same" -- it's not suppose to be the same, it's suppose to evolve, as it has done. Reality is, many of these people probably have difficulty accepting the fact that they're getting old... maybe they're no longer kinds, or maybe their kids are no longer interested in Disney. And that's likely the root of the problem.

Disney has never been, nor ever will be, a good value. Yes, it's gotten pricier but that's because demand has swelled as capacity remained stagnant. If people weren't willing to pay Disney's prices...

luisov · Aug 3, 2016

I do agree with you, but I have to say that there's something that just feels too 'pre-packaged' about WDW these days. The place is still magical and beautiful, I'm totally with you on that. Sometimes we are too critical because we are fans of Disney and we care about it, and we also tend to visit more often that the regular guests. However, you do notice certain things that have changed. Some of the food has become too standardized, not much better than frozen food. Same goes for the merchandise: pretty much every store has the same items. The CM's have been replaced by college programs, which can either be great employees or they simply won't care, and some of the special details have become too costly in the executives' minds... I do think there's a lot to enjoy at WDW these days. I do not think they follow the same standards that made them who they are today, though.

Customer satisfaction is no longer their number one priority. Profit maximization is. Which is fine considering that at the end of the day Disney is still a corporation. However, the company has been extremely profitable while keeping pretty much all of their guests happy in the past, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Josh Hendy · Aug 3, 2016

Lately I'm thinking ... WDW won't become a shell of its former self because Universal won't let them.

The best of the classic Disney attractions won't disappear because in a comic-book-movie based ride building arms race, Disney will still need the anchor of its classic children's rides to keep it square in the center of the "all ages" demographic. As a wise man once said: "When everybody's super ... nobody is!"

And so for the competing resorts as a whole. Halloween Horror Nights vs. Not So Scary. America Sings vs. The Blues Brothers.

Disney might have started to stagnate a little bit by treating WDW as a cash cow. But in the face of a strong to increasing market for themed resort vacations, that only created a giant vacuum into which first Universal and now Disney is going to pour cash. Probably SeaWorld too, and maybe even Six Flags and foreign theme park companies.

lockedoutlogic · Aug 3, 2016

rteetz said:
You'll have a great time, but with everything over time things change. Not everybody likes the change nor is every experience the same for everyone. I might go to MK and have a bad experience with cast members but then you go the next day and you have no problems. Everybody has a different experience.

You realize you just describe in a few sentences what's wrong with the place?

The legacy was to sacrifice SOME of the profits to pay respect to the customer and maintain consistent standards.

Those have been largely abandoned in a quest for the quarterly earnings call.

Those two things can't effectively co-exist.

...and as a relevant aside - watch out for Iger...he's starting to look like that crazed "I'll show them...nobody beats me!!!" Trait like the last guy with all these ill thought out capital outlays.

Could be a good thing...could be that he retires and the parks are a mishmosh of incoherent structures and labels that strip what made them great to begin with...

...I'm just saying.

rteetz · Aug 3, 2016

lockedoutlogic said:
You realize you just describe in a few sentences what's wrong with the place?

The legacy was to sacrifice SOME of the profits to pay respect to the customer and maintain consistent standards.

Those have been largely abandoned in a quest for the quarterly earnings call.

Those two things can't effectively co-exist.

...and as a relevant aside - watch out for Iger...he's starting to look like that crazed "I'll show them...nobody beats me!!!" Trait like the last guy with all these ill thought out capital outlays.

Could be a good thing...could be that he retires and the parks are a mishmosh of incoherent structures and labels that strip what made them great to begin with...

...I'm just saying.

I don't disagree

mcd2745 · Aug 4, 2016

lockedoutlogic said:
You realize you just describe in a few sentences what's wrong with the place?

The legacy was to sacrifice SOME of the profits to pay respect to the customer and maintain consistent standards.

Those have been largely abandoned in a quest for the quarterly earnings call.

Those two things can't effectively co-exist.

Unfortunately, it's the way of the current world. I was reading an article about Southwest Airlines the other day - who have had a really rough couple of weeks. In it, one of theses big Wall St. analysts flat out ripped the CEO and the company as a whole because he felt their priorities are completely out of whack. He felt that their first priority was customer satisfaction. In his mind...how dare they put customers first???!!! That's today's sad reality in corporate boardrooms. There's no making the logical conclusion that if you master the customer satisfaction part...the financials will usually take care of themselves.

Josh Hendy · Aug 4, 2016

lockedoutlogithemselves said:
The legacy was to sacrifice SOME of the profits to pay respect to the customer and maintain consistent standards.

Those have been largely abandoned in a quest for the quarterly earnings call.

Those two things can't effectively co-exist.

The fund managers are also desperate to appear to have a big "win" in the next quarter because anything less than that will trigger massive redemptions and subsequent loss of bonuses, perks and jobs. So they get the greedy, shortsighted, desperate corporate management that they deserve.

It's a really sick system.

LAS2AMS · Aug 4, 2016

luisov said:
I do agree with you, but I have to say that there's something that just feels too 'pre-packaged' about WDW these days. The place is still magical and beautiful, I'm totally with you on that. Sometimes we are too critical because we are fans of Disney and we care about it, and we also tend to visit more often that the regular guests. However, you do notice certain things that have changed. Some of the food has become too standardized, not much better than frozen food. Same goes for the merchandise: pretty much every store has the same items. The CM's have been replaced by college programs, which can either be great employees or they simply won't care, and some of the special details have become too costly in the executives' minds... I do think there's a lot to enjoy at WDW these days. I do not think they follow the same standards that made them who they are today, though.

Customer satisfaction is no longer their number one priority. Profit maximization is. Which is fine considering that at the end of the day Disney is still a corporation. However, the company has been extremely profitable while keeping pretty much all of their guests happy in the past, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

I disagree. I haven't noticed a change in quality of food. I don't scrutinize the merchandise, so you might be right there

. And the labor is reflective of the market -- when the labor market is competitive, Disney generally expands its college and international programs to fill its minimum wage, menial positions.

Theme parks around the country, including Universal's, have copied Disney's Fast Pass program -- but for a fee. Meanwhile, Disney's remains included in park admission. Disney has resisted attempts to charge for Fast Pass, or to introduce a fee-based "unlimited" Fast Pass. And Disney bowed to gust complaints in its recent attempt to keep the parks open after hours to those who paid a fee.

And Disney has always tried to maximize its profits, that's nothing new. It's never been a good value, and it's gotten worse mainly because of economics (supply and demand) at play -- Disney has kept its capacity stagnant whereas visitors have surged. How many people who made one visit per year a decade ago now travel several times per year? You're part of the problem!!! Don't like the costs? Then don't pay them. But don't criticize Disney for doing what for-profit corporations are suppose to do.

That said, I still think many people have fond memories of Disney as children, or with their children... and now they're grown up or gotten older and visiting it naturally isn't the same. In other words, an empty nester couple visiting the MK may think 'it's not the same,' ... is it really because of the recent changes to the MK (which have actually been positive), or is it because they remember it with their kids, and life will never be that way again?

peg110 · Aug 4, 2016

LAS2AMS said:
And Disney has always tried to maximize its profits, that's nothing new.

While this is true even in Walt/Roy's day, they (Walt/Roy) would cater to the guests more to keep them happy under the premise that the happy guest will spend more in the long run. So if they had to sacrifice a $50.00 meal (for example) to keep the guest happy, then the guest is more likely to go spend that $50 (and/or more) on something else as opposed to being upset about something and NOT spending any more and maybe even spending less.

If I am made to feel like a respected and appreciated customer, I am more likely to spend my money there, even if it's a bit more, because I know I am appreciated, otherwise, I might be persuaded to take my money/business elsewhere (like, maybe..... Universal?)

Today's management wants to maximize profit by trying to squeeze as much out of you with giving you as little as the have to.

LAS2AMS · Aug 4, 2016

peg110 said:
While this is true even in Walt/Roy's day, they (Walt/Roy) would cater to the guests more to keep them happy under the premise that the happy guest will spend more in the long run. So if they had to sacrifice a $50.00 meal (for example) to keep the guest happy, then the guest is more likely to go spend that $50 (and/or more) on something else as opposed to being upset about something and NOT spending any more and maybe even spending less.

If I am made to feel like a respected and appreciated customer, I am more likely to spend my money there, even if it's a bit more, because I know I am appreciated, otherwise, I might be persuaded to take my money/business elsewhere (like, maybe..... Universal?)

Today's management wants to maximize profit by trying to squeeze as much out of you with giving you as little as the have to.

IMO, this is just a fallacy that some fanatics have convinced themselves to be true.

Disney has never good a good value. In some ways, it's gotten worse but its prices have risen mostly proportional to the Orlando area. The biggest price increases (e.g. annual passes) are largely a derivative of the surge of repeat guests -- just look at how many people on these forums travel to WDW four, five, six times or more per year.

manning · Aug 4, 2016

mcd2745 said:
Unfortunately, it's the way of the current world. I was reading an article about Southwest Airlines the other day - who have had a really rough couple of weeks. In it, one of theses big Wall St. analysts flat out ripped the CEO and the company as a whole because he felt their priorities are completely out of whack. He felt that their first priority was customer satisfaction. In his mind...how dare they put customers first???!!! That's today's sad reality in corporate boardrooms. There's no making the logical conclusion that if you master the customer satisfaction part...the financials will usually take care of themselves.

Customer satisfaction....greed prevents that every time.

Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

I feel the nerd in me stirring

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Always keep fighting

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These Mickey pretzels are making me thirsty!

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Just for that I have requested it

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