Parents, Please Control your Children

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JimmyV said:
So you don't approve of people passing judgment on kids banging away on piano keys and the parents' failure to intervene ....but....you agree that such behavior was wrong. So if the failure to supervise was, in your own words, "absolutely wrong", then you are agreeing that a greater level of supervision would have been a better response. But once you distill it down to that, aren't you judging too? How can you suggest that a greater level of supervision would have been better without passing the same judgment as those who you now criticize? The only way out of this box is to say: "I think that was absolutely wrong for the child to bang on the keys without any parent intervention, but I disagree with all of you who are passing judgment and who think that the parents should have intervened." This creates a paradox of "a wrong with no solution" and is nonsensical. Once you concede that the lack of parental intervention was "absolutely wrong", you have to move into the camp of "intervention would have been better." And once you are in that camp, you are judging.
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Thank you for rewording exactly what I wrote. Yes I am saying I think it is wrong for the child to do that. But who knows what the parents did or said to the child after they were out of the picture. And in my first statement I am referring to these ridiculous stories of kids being loud in pools and dancing around at cosmic rays and crying at a restaurant and people being annoyed. So if some people's children are little angels then like I said they should feel blessed. My children are well behaved and yes they do have an occasional meltdown as do some of us adults! Now I would really like to get back to the positive and out of this negativity on this whole post. ✌
 
WillAustin said:
It's not as disruptive as you'd think. And it works.
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That's almost exactly what my daughter said, "You'd have just picked us up and hauled us off."

I know where I got it from, too. My mum used to haul me back from the beach every afternoon at nap time, hoisted up under her arm like a sack of potatoes, kicking and wailing like she was murdering me. I never wanted to leave the beach! But she made sure I did, every day, at 2pm, because some thing (like nap time) were just not negotiable. The neighbours used to watch for us and have a good laugh.
 
aaarcher86 said:
I've found that people are far more willing to tolerate a child when they're being disciplined versus allowing the poor behavior to continue in order to avoid a meltdown.

I'd much rather deal with a kid shrieking his head off while being removed from the area because THAT'S just a kid being a kid. Not banging on a piano while someone's performing.
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I say let the melt begin. I always just helped me take care of teaching a lesson one time instead of over and over again. One time with no results will usually fix the situation.

Meltdowns are merely manipulation, survival instinctive reactions that need to be tempered with a certain degree of "oh, no you're not going to get that by that behavior". One of the things I tried to do was not making threats that I wasn't going to carry out. In a place like WDW you cannot make the statement "If you don't stop we're going home". They know better and you know better. However, if you don't stop we are going back to the hotel, no pool and no TV, they knew that I would do that so it wasn't an idle threat.

One time many years later I was standing in line at Buzz Lightyear with my then grown up daughter. In line with us was a family. One of the kids, I would say was about 10, was literally screaming at his father. He called him an stupid idiot because he hadn't got FP's and therefore they had to stand in line. It was relentless. The kid called the father every name in the book, some that shouldn't have been uttered in public. The Father just looked defeated and totally worn out.

My daughter turned to me and said... if we had done anything like that we would have left the park so fast our heads would have spun. She was absolutely right. I had no problem with taking action to make sure the problem never happened again, if it had occurred.
 


goofyernmost said:
I say let the melt begin. I always just helped me take care of teaching a lesson one time instead of over and over again. One time with no results will usually fix the situation.

Meltdowns are merely manipulation, survival instinctive reactions that need to be tempered with a certain degree of "oh, no you're not going to get that by that behavior". One of the things I tried to do was not making threats that I wasn't going to carry out. In a place like WDW you cannot make the statement "If you don't stop we're going home". They know better and you know better. However, if you don't stop we are going back to the hotel, no pool and no TV, they knew that I would do that so it wasn't an idle threat.

One time many years later I was standing in line at Buzz Lightyear with my then grown up daughter. In line with us was a family. One of the kids, I would say was about 10, was literally screaming at his father. He called him an stupid idiot because he hadn't got FP's and therefore they had to stand in line. It was relentless. The kid called the father every name in the book, some that shouldn't have been uttered in public. The Father just looked defeated and totally worn out.

My daughter turned to me and said... if we had done anything like that we would have left the park so fast our heads would have spun. She was absolutely right. I had no problem with taking action to make sure the problem never happened again, if it had occurred.
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To be fair, not all meltdowns are manipulation. Some are just an overwhelmed child, whose emotions have spiraled out of control and now they're in a bad place. But, even then, that doesn't mean they get what they want. It means they get what they need. Which is usually to be removed from the situation and put somewhere quiet where they can get themselves back under control again.

My son, who is/was hypoglycemic and very sensitive to loud noises, once had a meltdown in the middle of the Magic Kingdom when he was nine. It was during the Christmas party, and we were packed into the theatre like so many sardines, there were lights flashing and singers and dancers on stage and all of a sudden he was wailing, "I'm not HAPPY!" There was no way out. :crowded: Fortunately, I succeeded in getting him to shush fairly quickly, but after the show we found a quiet corner to sit and get a breather with apple slices and sugar-free hot chocolate (no cookies for him!). He'd clearly had enough. And later it became one of those funny stories about the boy being unhappy in the "Happiest Place on Earth" (I know it's not really, that's actually Disneyland, but still, it amused us).

His self control is excellent these days. So good, in fact, it's a little scary (I'm thinking of the time he cut off the tip of his thumb and the doctor sewed it back on without anesthesia and all he said was "Ow," in a quiet monotone - he was just 14!).

You're right that meltdowns are nothing to fear. Losing it, and getting it together again, are how kids learn to be mature, rational people.
 
North of Mouse said:
Sorry, but 'kids being kids' doesn't mean having to put up with all kinds of behavior. I will 'not' be tolerant of out of control, not disciplined children - that's what parents are for.

We're at Disney now, ate at Boma a couple nights ago - table next to us a couple with two boys - about 2 & 6. None of them hardly touched any food - the oldest was wandering around, tried to stand over our table, but I finally gave him the stink eye and he sought other distractions - like picking up the silverware at the table across from us, putting it down,etc. Parents looking, saying nothing. Waitress picked up those place settings along with napkins, quietly told him not to do that. As soon as she left, he started in on some others, finally they were leaving, and 'get this' - Dad takes a knife from him, then puts it back in place on the napkin

They left, we told the waitress what more had been played with, she was soooo
frustrated, said you can't dare say a word to the brat's parents.

So, yes, I 'do' judge bad parenting- we raised three, and I know it takes constant, consistent watching and constructive discipline, which we've noticed many parents aren't willing to do.
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This must be a trend!! I was in Capt. Cook's in August waiting for my food when I noticed a child take spoons from the utensil dispenser, put them in his mouth and then place them back in the dispenser. No parent was watching him. A woman, who I assume was grandma, came over and I very politely let her know what he did, so she took the spoons out and threw them away. Meanwhile, it turns out mom had been at the cashier the whole time (with her back to the child) and noticed that I had spoken to the older woman and asked her what I had said. Grandma proceeded to tell mom who then looked at me and gave me a dirty look! As if I did something wrong to notify them their child had licked spoons and put them back in the dispenser! Um, yeah, not going to let that one pass. So gross. I will never take a utensil that has been lying in one of the dispensers ever again.
 
starjazz said:
A meltdown is a loss of control. These parents in the OP's story chose to avoid a meltdown. And the kids were removed from the scene by other measures. I don't fault them. It was their parenting choice.

As for the kids, there are many times when those pianists invite children to join them, so I'm not sure they were so out of line. But if calling someone else's kids a brat makes you feel better, here's the place to do it.
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Exactly. Just because some of the self-proclaimed parenting experts don't agree with how they chose to handle it doesn't make it wrong. Especially since NO ONE here even knows the full story, on what was said between child and performer, between child and parents when they were removed from the situation etc..., all they have is one person's anecdotal "evidence" and a large amount of assumptions after that. Those parents know their children best, and what is most effective. And even if they didn't choose the most effective method that particular one time out of their entire parenting journey, every single parent here has had their less than stellar parenting moments - they just apparently are choosing to forget all that. I have found the the hypocritical, judgmental, narrow-minded, self-righteous and assuming attitudes here sadder than the behavior of that child, by far.
 


starjazz said:
A meltdown is a loss of control. These parents in the OP's story chose to avoid a meltdown. And the kids were removed from the scene by other measures. I don't fault them. It was their parenting choice.

As for the kids, there are many times when those pianists invite children to join them, so I'm not sure they were so out of line. But if calling someone else's kids a brat makes you feel better, here's the place to do it.
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You have no idea what the parents in the OP were thinking or doing or choosing to do, just as the OP doesn't either.
 
starjazz said:
A meltdown is a loss of control. These parents in the OP's story chose to avoid a meltdown. And the kids were removed from the scene by other measures. I don't fault them. It was their parenting choice.

As for the kids, there are many times when those pianists invite children to join them, so I'm not sure they were so out of line. But if calling someone else's kids a brat makes you feel better, here's the place to do it.
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With the picture in mind, I find it hard to imagine the cast member would invite two children to climb up onto the railing and reach way over in order to pound on his piano keys. I would think the whole point of surrounding the pianist with a railing is to discourage that kind of thing.

I agree it's another matter completely if a child has been explicitly invited to come inside the railing to sit on the pianist's bench, or stand beside him. That doesn't seem to have been the case here.
 
starjazz said:
What about Crystal Palace, where they're encouraged to do so during the parade? How about the buffets where they intentionally put the kids food on lower tables so that they can help themselves? Frankly, if you're annoyed by kids roaming freely through restaurants, Disney may not be the best choice for your vacation.
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.
I have to disagree with you. Every place has its own restrictions as well as proper etiquette, What is acceptable behavior at Chuckie Cheese is not the same as what is proper behavior at a high end restauarant. Its the parents job to teach their kids to understand that.
 
DSLRuser said:
Because too many people only rely on "time outs" and are too worried about being "Besties" with their kids.

Now I am all for having a good relationship with your kids. But at some point you have to parent. And there has to be a next step when time outs dont work.

You may only have to spank your kid one time in their life, but the child will know what comes next if time outs dont correct behavior.
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My mother carried a paddle in her purse. If my brother and I acted up, she would bend down and ask: "Do you want me to embarrass you in front of all these people?" One time in a store my older bother tested her by saying: Yeah! Go ahead!" My mother gladly obliged him right in the middle of the store with the paddle. Neither of us acted up ever again.
 
Sammie said:
This is the way it is usually set up and yes that means hands off the piano except for the performer. http://www.stephenamerritt.com/sites/default/files/CokeCorner.jpg
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Magpie said:
Ah, yes that makes it very clear! Thank you for the photo.
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Magpie said:
With the picture in mind, I find it hard to imagine the cast member would invite two children to climb up onto the railing and reach way over in order to pound on his piano keys. I would think the whole point of surrounding the pianist with a railing is to discourage that kind of thing.
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If that's all I had to go by, I'd probably have reached the same conclusion. But then I took the time to actually follow the link and watch the video from this post:

Mark P. said:
Feel bad for Jim, if in fact that happened. We always take time to stop by and enjoy his music, and make it a point to thank him.
Found a nice article/video here on his 30 year anniversary:
http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/bl...ars-playing-for-guests-at-magic-kingdom-park/
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which gives a slightly different perspective, showing Jim inviting a kid to reach over and hit one key. Now obviously that's not the same as pounding on keys without instruction, but it's enough of a different perspective to make me reevaluate things. If the boys had previously seen another kid participating this way, I couldn't fault the older boy for leaning over and just looking. It's not a huge step for the younger one to not grasp the difference between hitting one key on cue and pounding several at his own rhythm.
 
mel373 said:
But who knows what the parents did or said to the child after they were out of the picture.
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But herein lies the problem. "After they were out of the picture" is too late to save the situation for all the rest of the guests whose entertainment was being ruined. "After they were out of the picture" does nothing to help the pianist, and it does nothing to help the other people trying to enjoy the performance. "After they were out of the picture" is the selfish way of trying to handle the situation where the only feelings being considered are those of the inactive parents and their disruptive children. When a child is interfering with a public performance, immediate action is required. Suppose you were sitting down in a seat watching Fantasmic and two children directly in front of you stood up throughout the entire performance, talking, yelling and screaming the whole time ruining the performance for you. Under that situation, I'm betting that your response would not be to let the situation play itself out in hopes that the parents would say something to the children "after they were out of the picture." Instead, you would want the parents to act immediately. And if they didn't, you yourself would probably have intervened to say something either to the children or to the parents. Just as in aaarcher86's situation with the french fries. You don't let the situation play itself out and allow the kids to put their grubby hands all over your food and hope that they will get a good talking to later. You expect immediate intervention, and if it is not forthcoming, you intervene yourself. There is nothing judgmental about that. Those are simply the rules of an orderly civilization. You are absolutely correct that we do not know "what the parents did or said to the child after they were out of the picture." But it simply doesn't matter.
 
Laz said:
My mother carried a paddle in her purse. If my brother and I acted up, she would bend down and ask: "Do you want me to embarrass you in front of all these people?" One time in a store my older bother tested her by saying: Yeah! Go ahead!" My mother gladly obliged him right in the middle of the store with the paddle. Neither of us acted up ever again.
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Sadly, this would probably get her arrested today.
 
starjazz said:
A meltdown is a loss of control. These parents in the OP's story chose to avoid a meltdown. And the kids were removed from the scene by other measures. I don't fault them. It was their parenting choice.

As for the kids, there are many times when those pianists invite children to join them, so I'm not sure they were so out of line. But if calling someone else's kids a brat makes you feel better, here's the place to do it.
Click to expand...

Parenting choice? To let their kids be out of control, obnoxious, and clearly ruining other's enjoyment of the performance, bothering the performer, etc. etc. etc. That's ok because that's how they 'choose' to parent? A brat is a brat - look up the meaning. Why is it wrong to be truthful? Thankfully, most here do not seem to think the way you do, they try to be responsible for their off spring's actions and deal with it.


mshanson3121 said:
Exactly. Just because some of the self-proclaimed parenting experts don't agree with how they chose to handle it doesn't make it wrong. Especially since NO ONE here even knows the full story, on what was said between child and performer, between child and parents when they were removed from the situation etc..., all they have is one person's anecdotal "evidence" and a large amount of assumptions after that. Those parents know their children best, and what is most effective. And even if they didn't choose the most effective method that particular one time out of their entire parenting journey, every single parent here has had their less than stellar parenting moments - they just apparently are choosing to forget all that. I have found the the hypocritical, judgmental, narrow-minded, self-righteous and assuming attitudes here sadder than the behavior of that child, by far.
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Just wow! Can't believe the thoughts/attitudes of some parents that action condone such outrageous behavior from their children, and feel no one observing this should think differently -

Your words - "hypocritical, judgmental, narrow-minded, self-righteous and assuming attitudes here sadder than the behavior of that child, by far." So, this is your take on parents that actually discipline their children and say so - quite a list of adjectives!! Children actually pick up on your attitudes, and therein is the problem - they 'know' they're 'special' and can do no wrong, and no one else should even 'think' they are! That's exactly what that waitress said to us the other night at Boma. :sad2:


Jennasis said:
You have no idea what the parents in the OP were thinking or doing or choosing to do, just as the OP doesn't either.
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True, but 'not' doing anything about the situation at the time speaks louder than words. I've read before, that you do not have children, so you might would/would not be like these parents. It doesn't really matter to me 'what' discipline (most likely none) happens to the children 'after' the damage is being done if the parents 'choose' to do nothing at the time. Would a parent let a child run into the street, not do anything, then quietly tell the child 'later' (if nothing happened) that they shouldn't do that next time - 'OR' take immediate action to control the situation.
 
GaryDis said:
If that's all I had to go by, I'd probably have reached the same conclusion. But then I took the time to actually follow the link and watch the video from this post:



which gives a slightly different perspective, showing Jim inviting a kid to reach over and hit one key. Now obviously that's not the same as pounding on keys without instruction, but it's enough of a different perspective to make me reevaluate things. If the boys had previously seen another kid participating this way, I couldn't fault the older boy for leaning over and just looking. It's not a huge step for the younger one to not grasp the difference between hitting one key on cue and pounding several at his own rhythm.
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And since no one including the OP knows every detail of the story , we should all refrain from judgement. Which was my point 12 pages ago. Does the OP (or anyone else) have the right to say that the kids annoyed them? Sure, but that's a personal issue. It doesn't justify criticizing the family, in my opinion.
 
GaryDis said:
If that's all I had to go by, I'd probably have reached the same conclusion. But then I took the time to actually follow the link and watch the video from this post:



which gives a slightly different perspective, showing Jim inviting a kid to reach over and hit one key. Now obviously that's not the same as pounding on keys without instruction, but it's enough of a different perspective to make me reevaluate things. If the boys had previously seen another kid participating this way, I couldn't fault the older boy for leaning over and just looking. It's not a huge step for the younger one to not grasp the difference between hitting one key on cue and pounding several at his own rhythm.
Click to expand...

I missed seeing the link to the video, so thank you very much for pointing that out. Like you, I also try to always take the time to follow any available links before commenting. :)

Yes, being invited to press a particular key with one finger is a very different matter from leaning over and pounding away. I also really liked how the parents in the video were hovering, making sure their kids didn't overstep the bounds, or get carried away in their excitement. That's some nice, attentive parenting, right there!

I wouldn't fault the kids in your scenario, either. That's why we supervise, correct, and teach.
 
North of Mouse said:
Parenting choice? To let their kids be out of control, obnoxious, and clearly ruining other's enjoyment of the performance, bothering the performer, etc. etc. etc. That's ok because that's how they 'choose' to parent? A brat is a brat - look up the meaning. Why is it wrong to be truthful? Thankfully, most here do not seem to think the way you do, they try to be responsible for their off spring's actions and deal with it.




Just wow! Can't believe the thoughts/attitudes of some parents that action condone such outrageous behavior from their children, and feel no one observing this should think differently -

Your words - "hypocritical, judgmental, narrow-minded, self-righteous and assuming attitudes here sadder than the behavior of that child, by far." So, this is your take on parents that actually discipline their children and say so - quite a list of adjectives!! Children actually pick up on your attitudes, and therein is the problem - they 'know' they're 'special' and can do no wrong, and no one else should even 'think' they are! That's exactly what that waitress said to us the other night at Boma. :sad2:




True, but 'not' doing anything about the situation at the time speaks louder than words. I've read before, that you do not have children, so you might would/would not be like these parents. It doesn't really matter to me 'what' discipline (most likely none) happens to the children 'after' the damage is being done if the parents 'choose' to do nothing at the time. Would a parent let a child run into the street, not do anything, then quietly tell the child 'later' (if nothing happened) that they shouldn't do that next time - 'OR' take immediate action to control the situation.
Click to expand...
That is one of the problems these days ~ when you point out people's lack of parenting, it is somehow your problem, not theirs. :sad2:
 
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