Did DVC "Create" points at PVB?

freediverdude said:
I think the initial price will be higher of course. But I still don't know how they think they would get away with charging more points per night for VWL II than VGF or the Poly, or even BLT. Wilderness Lodge is inherently a less expensive resort than the monorail resorts, so I just can't see that happening. I'm sure those individual cabins will be fairly high points almost to the level of the bungalows, but the refurbed hotel rooms I can't see those going for the same points as a monorail studio.
Click to expand...
They sold SSR and they'll sell the Poly and they'll sell VWL II no matter the specifics. We'll see exactly what happens but I think it's unlikely to see this cheaper than BLT for comparable unit types, refurbished or not. Remember they've got to justify the profit to make the project worthwhile.
 
Plus those WL hotel rooms are much smaller, similar in size to the BLT studios. But who knows what they're doing with the refurb. I just don't see how they could charge Poly points or VGF points for that, nobody would book them. Now I do think that they will be able to charge more points than VWL I, because the units will be in the main building, so that will naturally command a premium. And the fact that resort is more picturesque than BLT, and newer units, maybe they can get away with BLT point cost. And who knows, maybe they'll make some of them concierge like AKV.
 
The number of points at a resort is based on the maximum reallocation number listed in resort declaration. This is the number of points each room would be assigned for each day of the year if booked full.

This is the number around which DVC can create allocations by season or day of week. Any reallocations for seasons and days of week must balance to the maximimum reallocation number.

For example, for PVB, there are 3 room types:

The maximum reallocation amount for -

Standard studios (288) is 22.
Lake View Studio (72) is 26
Bungalows (20) is 147.

So total number of points is (288 rooms x 22 points x 365 nights) plus (72 rooms x 26 points x 365 nights) plus (20 rooms x 147 points x 365 nights) =

2,312,640
683,280
1,073,100
------------
4,069,020 total points
 
Last edited:
If, for example, DVC created a new category, say garden/pool with standard being parking lot rooms, they'd have to amend the master declaration and create a master reallocation amount for garden pool and amend for standard and lake view.

So, knock out 24 Lake view rooms and you have 48 rooms.

I've been told there are about 38 truly parking lot rooms, let's say 60 to be sure to get them all.

60 standards

That would leave 253 Garden/pool rooms.

Total number of now standard and lake view is 2,995,920.

So: if this were the change DVC made, it would be (48 x A points x 365) plus (253 x B points x 365) plus (60 x C points x 365) = 2,995,920
 


Btw, the math works beautiful above where A=26 points for lake view, B=23 for garden/pool, and C=19 for standard.

That's 2,995,555 vs current 2,995,920

In this example, Lake View Maximum Reallocation stays the same, and garden view/pool and standard offset each other. So. It would be hard to say that there would end up being "created points" if some lake views are changed. I can't see DVC fixing lake views without also fixing parking lot views, and that will be a wash, point wise.
 
Last edited:
A major problem if DVC made the above change would be that it would narrow the gap between most current standard rooms vs lake view (26/22 current maximum reallocation to 26/23) while at the same eliminating a third of lake view.

Such a move would exert a fairly decent amount of additional booking pressure on lake view rooms.

That would be somewhat offset by demand for cheaper parking lot points.

Both those new categories, reduced count Lake View and new reduced cost Standard (parking lot view) would be in demand categories.
 
Last edited:
ziravan said:
In this example, Lake View Maximum Reallocation stays the same, and garden view/pool and standard offset each other. So. It would be hard to say that there would end up being "created points" if some lake views are changed. I can't see DVC fixing lake views without also fixing parking lot views, and that will be a wash, point wise.
Click to expand...

Points can never be created by changing views, since the total points for the entire resort are "locked" when the resort is first opened.
My concern is that they "Created" more points when the resort was first opened by over classifying room views, and those rooms therefore brought more points into the overall total.
 


dismedvc said:
Points can never be created by changing views, since the total points for the entire resort are "locked" when the resort is first opened.
My concern is that they "Created" more points when the resort was first opened by over classifying room views, and those rooms therefore brought more points into the overall total.
Click to expand...
Right. Any change is going to have to mimic the Maximum Reallocation Amounts per category that will add up to 4,069,020 points.

But based on complaints, it appears that they also over classifying the parking lot views as well.

I don't think they can fix one without the other.

So, if there is a reclassification of rooms, I think it will balance out.

Honestly, I think they just made a mistake, or rather, two of them. Even assuming they were intentionally padding points in the lake views, based on reports, there are far more complaints about parking lot views - so they got caught with their pants down there and their pad is going to be eaten up fixing that.

IF they make a change here, they have to fix both problems.
 
Last edited:
Another way to "Create" points when the resort is first opened is to have a category of "Super Villas" that initially are set to require an excessive number of points. Many buyers do not plan on ever staying in those Super Villas, so they do not even look at the point cost for those Villas. They only look at the cost per point and the number of points required for the Regular Villas they plan to stay in. However, after the resort is sold out, the point requirement for the Super Villas could be lowered and the points for the Regular Villas, the ones that drove the sales for many buyers, could be increased.
 
dismedvc said:
Another way to "Create" points when the resort is first opened is to have a category of "Super Villas" that initially are set to require an excessive number of points. Many buyers do not plan on ever staying in those Super Villas, so they do not even look at the point cost for those Villas. They only look at the cost per point and the number of points required for the Regular Villas they plan to stay in. However, after the resort is sold out, the point requirement for the Super Villas could be lowered and the points for the Regular Villas, the ones that drove the sales for many buyers, could be increased.
Click to expand...
Yes but.

I think DVC was being a tad sneaky here, but also smart.

Many people believe there will be plenty of availability at PVB at 7 months because there are so many studios. - 360.

I don't share that view. Most, by far, of the points being sold are not in totals that will allow booking the bungalows. Yet, bungalows are 25% of total points.

The people using home resort advantage at Poly are going to be booking studios. They might try a day or two in bungalows, but that's it.

Those booking out (other DVC resorts, cruises, etc) are going to create vacancies that will be absorbed into the bungalow points.

For other DVC members, that means what will be available at 7 mos will be bungalows. So, after Poly sells out, the entire DVC collective will be able to sample a night or two in the bungalows, but the studios are going to be full of home owners.

Same for DVC. When they get points to sell (from cruises, concierge, breakage), it will be bungalows. And that's a great profit margin for them. It's a great deal for DVC: routine access to CRO bookings in bungalows with members paying for upkeep. I don't think the goal of bungalows was to inflate points for sale. I think the goal was routine access to high end CRO bookings with upkeep paid by someone else - for 50 yrs. Bazinga!

I'm not so sure DVC will reallocate bungalows. I think they intended the price to play to be quite high. I think they're going to be just fine with that.

I think there's a very good chance that they will reallocate first floor lake views and parking lot views.
 
Last edited:
I think the only way we will be able to tell if the Poly "oversold" points for studios by having the bungalows is looking at the bungalow occupancy. If the bungalows are mostly booked up year round on points, then it all evens out somehow, whether it's Poly owners booking them or owners of other resorts trading in and Poly owners trading out.
 
freediverdude said:
I think the only way we will be able to tell if the Poly "oversold" points for studios by having the bungalows is looking at the bungalow occupancy. If the bungalows are mostly booked up year round on points, then it all evens out somehow, whether it's Poly owners booking them or owners of other resorts trading in and Poly owners trading out.
Click to expand...
It will be like VGF studios. If there's a problem, it won't become apparent until the resort nears sell out.

That's because DVC will keep releasing rooms to stay ahead of buyers while its selling so there will always be more rooms in inventory than owners while still for sale.

It was only near sellout that the problems booking VGF studios at 11 months became apparent.

The solution for owners would have been to buy fixed weeks when it was for sale. Too late now. I bet there are dozens or hundreds of VGF owners that wished they owned a fixed week Oct-Dec studio. Sadly, the need only became apparent after the opportunity passed.

This is why I bought a fixed week Lake View studio at Poly in Nov. if DVC reallocates away the first floor, I'm protected. If they raise points per night, I'm protected. If studios become difficult to book, I'm protected. If Lake Views become a more rare category, I'm protected (Lake Views are currently only 17% of total points and if reduced to 48 studios, would shrink to 11% of all points.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: STA
dismedvc said:
Points can never be created by changing views, since the total points for the entire resort are "locked" when the resort is first opened.
My concern is that they "Created" more points when the resort was first opened by over classifying room views, and those rooms therefore brought more points into the overall total.
Click to expand...
To a degree they've done this with several of the recent resorts going back to SSR. It's their prerogative to set the points. Those that buy know (or should know) the issues going in. The rest of us that don't own there have no say. Ultimately if it sells, they will be vindicated.

dismedvc said:
Another way to "Create" points when the resort is first opened is to have a category of "Super Villas" that initially are set to require an excessive number of points. Many buyers do not plan on ever staying in those Super Villas, so they do not even look at the point cost for those Villas. They only look at the cost per point and the number of points required for the Regular Villas they plan to stay in. However, after the resort is sold out, the point requirement for the Super Villas could be lowered and the points for the Regular Villas, the ones that drove the sales for many buyers, could be increased.
Click to expand...
Some would say they did so with the bungalows. The problem with this theory is that is means they possibly left money on the table. Remember their goal is to build it and sell it, unless they make changes fairly quickly, it's of no benefit to them after it's largely sold. After that it's just the owners there who are affected and to a far lessor degree, the rest of the DVC owners. I've said before I think they missed opportunities with the Poly to create and sell more points by having a unique larger studio or mini 1 BR that would also have solved some of the criticisms many of us have had as well. You still have to wonder if they have a master plan to add larger non water villas to the project there.
 
ziravan said:
This is why I bought a fixed week Lake View studio at Poly in Nov. if DVC reallocates away the first floor, I'm protected. If they raise points per night, I'm protected. If studios become difficult to book, I'm protected. If Lake Views become a more rare category, I'm protected (Lake Views are currently only 17% of total points and if reduced to 48 studios, would shrink to 11% of all points.)
Click to expand...

ziravan: Very wise if view is important to you. I have found your posts in this thread very well thought out and informative.

We do not own at PVB, but did purchase BLT direct when it first opened. We purchased there for the location, not the view, since we do not spend much time in the room, but like to be able to walk back to the room and go right to sleep 15 minutes after we leave the park at midnight or later. (We own at BWV for the same reason) At BLT we were not interested in TPV (based on the high point cost), and figured SV would be hard to get, even at the 11 month mark, so we based our purchase on the points required for LV. After all the complaints about the lower floor TPV rooms, many of those rooms were moved to SV, (a movement from the highest point category to the lowest) and the points were reallocated to increase the point cost per night for the LV rooms. At that time, there was a thread asking if DVC had "created" points at BLT by originally misclassifying TPV rooms. WDRL added a lot of value to that thread with his data on point totals and the effect of the reclassification. It seemed the conclusion to that thread was: the effect at BLT was to "create" points, but it was not obvious if that was due to a mistake in the original room classifications, or something DVD had done intentionally.

Even though a point reallocation has not yet occurred at PVB, I started this thread in advance so that if it does happen, members will take note of the old saying: "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".
 
DougEMG said:
It certainly looks like at the poly by classifying those first floor grooms as lake view rather than standard view they managed to increase the overall point total available to sell.

When they sold the Treehouses though didn't the opposite happen and they ended up increasing the point requirement for the Treehouse after sales ended. So they ended up losing here.

Maybe they are just incompetent at setting point requirements per room.
Click to expand...

A good point about the Treehouses that would refute my argument above. However, I believe at the time they announced the addition of the Treehouses at SSR, the non-treehouse portion of resort was still not sold out. One could argue DVD initially slightly underpriced the points for the Treehouses (intentionally) in order to sell the remaining unsold points for the other part of the resort, along with the additional Treehouse points, without having to discount the cost of those other unsold points. I do not think the Treehouse points are a large percentage of the total points for SSR. (Someone else probably knows the exact percentage.) However, if there were a large number of unsold points at the original resort, they did not "lose there" if they were able to sell those other unsold points at a higher price because of the "bargain" Treehouse point requirements, which they then later changed. On the other hand, you might be correct that "Maybe they are just incompetent at setting point requirements per room."
 
Last edited:
How does the fixed week option effect the total points? I own 130 points, but my week only "costs" 118... Those 12 points seem to be lost to the ether.
 
easyd said:
How does the fixed week option effect the total points? I own 130 points, but my week only "costs" 118... Those 12 points seem to be lost to the ether.
Click to expand...

Fixed week deeds do not impact the total points.
They allocate a certain number of points to each room. DVD sells contracts with points for a unit. Your fixed week deed has 130 points in the unit on your deed. They also sell non fixed week deeds for the same unit. DVD can sell a maximum of 98% of the points assigned to the unit.

Additional note, a unit is assigned to a specific UY. All points in a unit have the same UY.

If you use your fixed week, DVD has 12 points that are not used for that unit during the year.

At PVB, units are one of three configurations. I do not have my data in front of me right now. I know they can be two bungalows. I forget the studio combinations. I think they made the studios units consist of 3 rooms for some and 4 rooms for other units.
 
dizfan said:
Fixed week deeds do not impact the total points.
They allocate a certain number of points to each room. DVD sells contracts with points for a unit. Your fixed week deed has 130 points in the unit on your deed. They also sell non fixed week deeds for the same unit. DVD can sell a maximum of 98% of the points assigned to the unit.

Additional note, a unit is assigned to a specific UY. All points in a unit have the same UY.

If you use your fixed week, DVD has 12 points that are not used for that unit during the year.

At PVB, units are one of three configurations. I do not have my data in front of me right now. I know they can be two bungalows. I forget the studio combinations. I think they made the studios units consist of 3 rooms for some and 4 rooms for other units.
Click to expand...

Could a situation arise with points basically becoming breakage if enough people bought fixed week deeds, and used them as such? I know there's a cap on the number of fixed week deeds they can sell, but it seems like the whole fixed week thing sort of throws off the balance... For example, if I used 118 of my 130 points to book my studio at 11 months, and bank the 12 extra points. The next use year I do the same, and book at 11 months. But now I have 24 extra points, and add on one additional night. Seems like the people without the fixed week will really be at a disadvantage once the resort gets closer to sold out. With points being so expensive, and so many smaller contracts, getting a studio in December might be just as difficult as VGF!
 
I was playing with numbers for fun and IF they decided to do a major reallocation.

Maximum Reallocation Amount (MRA):

Assume 20 Bungalows, 48 Lake Views, 38 Standard/Parking Lot Views, 274 Garden/Pool views:

Bungalows 20 rooms - Lower MRA 25 points to 122 from previous 147. Total Bungalow Points would be 890,600 (currently 1,073,100) and that would reduce Bungalow points from 26.4% of total points to 21.9% of total points.

Lake View 48 rooms - Raise MRA 1 point to 27 (from 26). Total Lake View points would be 473,040 (currently 683,280) and that would reduce Lake View points from 16.8% of total points to 11.6% of total points.

Garden/Pool 274 rooms - Raise MRA 2 points to 24 (from 22). Total Garden/Pool View points would be 2,400,240 (currently 2,312,640) and that would increase Garden/Pool (formerly Standard) from 56.8% of total points to 59% of total points.

Standard (Parking Lot) 38 rooms - New category at MRA of 22 (no change from how they were previously classified). Total Standard points would be 305,140 and that would be 7.5% of total points.

Total points for resort would be exactly as many as now: 4,069,020.

1. That would be a significant decrease in Bungalow points.
2. It would be a steep increase for standard rooms at 2 points per night average.
3. Parking lot views would be in high demand. Lake View to a lessor degree

I just wanted to see what a reallocation would look like given the OP's hypothesis.
 
Last edited:
easyd said:
How does the fixed week option effect the total points? I own 130 points, but my week only "costs" 118... Those 12 points seem to be lost to the ether.
Click to expand...
My understanding is it doesn't affect the totals. However if they sell a significant number of fixed weeks and most people use their fixed week rather than taking points, it does create breakage inventory that can be rented by DVC or used for paint/refurbishment. I wonder if they cut their margin of unsold points closer because of this fact.

easyd said:
Could a situation arise with points basically becoming breakage if enough people bought fixed week deeds, and used them as such? I know there's a cap on the number of fixed week deeds they can sell, but it seems like the whole fixed week thing sort of throws off the balance... For example, if I used 118 of my 130 points to book my studio at 11 months, and bank the 12 extra points. The next use year I do the same, and book at 11 months. But now I have 24 extra points, and add on one additional night. Seems like the people without the fixed week will really be at a disadvantage once the resort gets closer to sold out. With points being so expensive, and so many smaller contracts, getting a studio in December might be just as difficult as VGF!
Click to expand...
Yes but I doubt it'll be enough to matter and if they slimmed up their unsold margin, it'd be break even for availability.

The issue with the Poly fixed weeks is you lock in your view type but not the actual view. Since there is no priority for view and no way to give a leg up to a higher floor, one may have paid extra for the fixed week and still get a very limited view. IMO the best was to use the fixed week is to get ahead by a year so one can reserve the week using points and take points on the next year. That way you potentially have both the extra points and the week you need. Worst case scenario is you don't get what you want on points and you keep the fixed week.
 
  • Like
Reactions: STA
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page


GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE

Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.

Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!


New DISboards Threads

D
Baron Zemo
Replies
0
Views
22
DodgerGirl
D
Oz Katie
Grad Trip for an Aussie High School student
Replies
0
Views
34
Oz Katie
Oz Katie
D
Today is my birthday
Replies
3
Views
41
Marrila
Marrila
DLRExpert
Genie+ Purchase issue at Midnight 4/25
Replies
3
Views
79
CJK
CJK
L
BLT Grand Villa During Refurb?
Replies
0
Views
44
LivingTheFruit
L
flyingdumbo127
Disneyland Trip Rescheduling?'s
Replies
2
Views
90
flyingdumbo127
flyingdumbo127
NEWS & UPDATES
DVC INFORMATION
DVC POINT CHARTS
DVC RESALES
DVC RENTALS
DVC LENDING


Latest posts










facebook twitter
Top