Reporter and Camerman killed on air.

Mizzoufan · Aug 27, 2015

Our local NBC station is a sister station of the station where they were killed. A couple of our news anchors went to help out the station. One filled in on their morning show.

pat fan · Aug 27, 2015

sam_gordon said:
How do you figure it's a "hate crime"? The shooter felt the two victims "wronged" him.

I believe he said he wanted to start a race war and the killings at the Church were the final straw for him. Wanting to start a race war would be a hate crime, don't you think?

Geoff_M · Aug 27, 2015

Christine said:
Take this with a grain of salt as it was reported by the media in today's WaPo. When Flanagan was fired from the station in 2013, her outburst and rage was so significant that he scared many of the other employees who felt the need to run in their office and lock themselves in and security had to be called. Now, granted, he was already fired at this point for "bizarre behavior" among other reasons, but I believe he was exhibiting odd behavior for quite some time according to reports. I don't think anyone every really believes that this person they see everyday, odd or not, is going to become a shooter.

I will tell you know, after being directly involved in a workplace shooting, I certainly have a different perspective now on odd behavior. In my particular case, the shooter was displaying schizophrenic symptoms long before the shooting and it was never taken seriously enough. Same deal with the VaTECH shooter. It all just gets swept under the rug because handling it is too hard.

I'm sorry to hear that you have some first-hand experience with this subject. The incident you refer to regarding to his termination at the station is detailed by two people in the document dump in The Guardian story. Effectively, the shooter upon hearing that he was being fired on the spot told his management that they needed to call the police because he was "about to make a big stink". No doubt that unnerved some who heard it. Granted, I am not a trained shrink, but in reading through the document trail detailing the station's case against Flanagan, I don't see much that would signal a diagnosis of mental illness or bizarre behavior that we normally associate with it. It paints a picture of someone who have some pretty horrible interpersonal skills and gets wound up emotionally quickly. It says that he often quarreled with others, occasionally used "aggressive body language", "belittled" others, and used "discriminatory language" towards others. That may make one an "extreme tool", but I don't see it as sure fire mental illness.

Also, referring someone to an "employee assistance program" isn't the same as telling someone they need "medical help" as the newspaper headline states. Such program are designed to help a worker with a variety of issues. To quote Wiki:

An employee assistance program (EAP) is an employee benefit programs offered by many employers. EAPs are intended to help employees deal with personal problems that might adversely impact their job performance, health, and well-being. EAPs generally include short-term counseling and referral services for employees and their household members. Supervisors may also refer employees (supervisor referral) based upon unacceptable performance or conduct issues.

It seem pretty clear that in this case it was an effort to try and get him to change his behavior towards others, and a likely HR move to prepare the foundation for termination if he didn't shape up.

AnnaFloridaLover · Aug 27, 2015

Best tweet ever: "Someone should do something".

Second best: "The first step is abandoning hope".

Christine · Aug 27, 2015

Geoff_M said:
I'm sorry to hear that you have some first-hand experience with this subject. The incident you refer to regarding to his termination at the station is detailed by two people in the document dump in The Guardian story. Effectively, the shooter upon hearing that he was being fired on the spot told his management that they needed to call the police because he was "about to make a big stink". No doubt that unnerved some who heard it. Granted, I am not a trained shrink, but in reading through the document trail detailing the station's case against Flanagan, I don't see much that would signal a diagnosis of mental illness or bizarre behavior that we normally associate with it. It paints a picture of someone who have some pretty horrible interpersonal skills and gets wound up emotionally quickly. It says that he often quarreled with others, occasionally used "aggressive body language", "belittled" others, and used "discriminatory language" towards others. That may make one an "extreme tool", but I don't see it as sure fire mental illness.

Also, referring someone to an "employee assistance program" isn't the same as telling someone they need "medical help" as the newspaper headline states. Such program are designed to help a worker with a variety of issues. To quote Wiki:It seem pretty clear that in this case it was an effort to try and get him to change his behavior towards others, and a likely HR move to prepare the foundation for termination if he didn't shape up.

You are correct that none of these behaviors diagnoses a mental illness. However, in my workplace (prior to the shooting even), any of the behaviors you mentioned above would be cause to have someone seriously counseled or removed from the premises. Post shooting, it's even worse. Just saying you were "about to make a big stink" would have you escorted out. Getting referred to EAP (or as a supervisory having to have the "EAP" talk with someone) is pretty serious. So I don't take this history lightly at all. But agree you can't slap "mentally ill" on him. But he is way over being an extreme tool. I work for a place that is extremely hard to get fired from but his reported behavior is the one thing that will do it.

In the situation I went through, the shooter started exhibiting odd behavior and poor performance one week prior to the incident. He was allegedly "talked to" about his performance/behavior a few days prior to his rampage. Of course, in hindsight, other employees reported being uncomfortable around him and his own company counselled him to take leave and "rest" because of his bizarre behavior. Unfortunately, no one in the workplace is qualified to deal with these types of issues and I don't know what the answer is.

dinolounger · Aug 27, 2015

Miskey said:
There's no doubt in my mind that she, or the other lady, did not notice him until he started shooting

Actually, if you carefully view the video that the shooter posted on Facebook (which was taken down quickly, but not quickly enough to keep the professional news hounds from copying it, which is why it is readily available online for anyone to review), between the 18 and 19 second mark you can see Alison Parker briefly -- ever so briefly -- glance to her right, where Flanagan was standing. His gun hadn't appeared yet at that point and I also suspect Parker was so focused on doing the interview and her glance was so short that she in all likelihood didn't register anything more than "bystanders."

diznygirl · Aug 27, 2015

The problem is knowing when the person is just normal crazy or dangerous crazy. There's people I stay away from because I don't know which way they lean. I know a bipolar person that is very nice, and they will be on meds forever. But they wouldn't hurt a fly. At least, I don't think so.

Regular Joes can't make a mental ill diagnoses. So, lets deal with mental illness, but how? That's the million dollar question.

Oh, and while we are talking money, if there was a profit to be made in dealing with mental illnesses someone would have been all over it by now.

Miskey · Aug 27, 2015

dinolounger said:
Actually, if you carefully view the video that the shooter posted on Facebook (which was taken down quickly, but not quickly enough to keep the professional news hounds from copying it, which is why it is readily available online for anyone to review), between the 18 and 19 second mark you can see Alison Parker briefly -- ever so briefly -- glance to her right, where Flanagan was standing. His gun hadn't appeared yet at that point and I also suspect Parker was so focused on doing the interview and her glance was so short that she in all likelihood didn't register anything more than "bystanders."

Okay?? I just watched it again and I don't see it, but if you say so

dinolounger · Aug 28, 2015

Disneychick75 said:
This s a link to a letter from Dan Dennison to Vester Flanagan aka Bryce Williams which references Williams's problems with coworkers:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2300656-vesterflanagan2.html#document/p1

article:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-vester-flanagan-wdbj-2012-memos-medical-help

Please note the highlighted portion of the text is part of the article, not mine.

I've already seen these and they underscore what I again heard in direct interviews with some of his previous co-workers. He was pushy, impatient, had a short temper and could be very intimidating. Were those grounds to put him on warning and eventual termination? Certainly. Would those have been grounds for the white coat patrol to come pick him up and take him into protective custody? If so, I can think of scores of people in organizations I've worked in who never threatened or physically harmed anyone but because of their flawed, nasty personalities would also have been hauled away.

There's a big difference between someone just being a grade A piece of work vs. a full-blown homicidal threat.

And I don't trust bureaucrats to make the distinction.

dinolounger · Aug 28, 2015

Miskey said:
Okay?? I just watched it again and I don't see it, but if you say so

Her brief glance is made quickly while the cell phone camera of the shooter is panning to the right, which results in her face being at the far left of the screen and partially cut off, so it's hard to catch the glance -- where she clearly turns her head briefly to her right and looks towards the shooter -- unless you watch the video in slow motion and carefully watch her head and hair at 18:00 mark, where she is no longer in profile and you suddenly see the left side of her hair. In other words, the glance was literally a fleeting one and less than a second long. It also chillingly right before he takes out his weapon and momentarily points it at her, before lowering it and moving back further behind the cameraman and opening fire at the 42 second mark. And I am not the only one or even the first person who has noticed this; viewers yesterday were already wondering why she didn't become alarmed after seeing someone next to her cameraman.

If it the video is still on youtube, you can use the speed controls to slow the video down; they are accessible through the gear icon that is below the screen on the right. You may have to search a while there to find it, since the standard controversial video-du-jour cat and mouse game is presently going on there. Youtube pulls it down and it pops up again in three minutes later under a different title (the one I watched was just titled "Virginia.")

It would be easy to grab and post a screen cap of her glance, but in the interest of decency I'm not even thinking of doing that.

sam_gordon · Aug 28, 2015

dinolounger said:
Her brief glance is made quickly while the cell phone camera of the shooter is panning to the right, which results in her face being at the far left of the screen and partially cut off, so it's hard to catch the glance -- where she clearly turns her head briefly to her right and looks towards the shooter -- unless you watch the video in slow motion and carefully watch her head and hair at 18:00 mark, where she is no longer in profile and you suddenly see the left side of her hair. In other words, the glance was literally a fleeting one and less than a second long. It also chillingly right before he takes out his weapon and momentarily points it at her, before lowering it and moving back further behind the cameraman and opening fire at the 42 second mark. And I am not the only one or even the first person who has noticed this; viewers yesterday were already wondering why she didn't become alarmed after seeing someone next to her cameraman.

If it the video is still on youtube, you can use the speed controls to slow the video down; they are accessible through the gear icon that is below the screen on the right. You may have to search a while there to find it, since the standard controversial video-du-jour cat and mouse game is presently going on there. Youtube pulls it down and it pops up again in three minutes later under a different title (the one I watched was just titled "Virginia.")

It would be easy to grab and post a screen cap of her glance, but in the interest of decency I'm not even thinking of doing that.

So you went through the video in slow motion, "carefully" watching her head and hair to prove what? That she MIGHT have noticed someone (did she have time to realize WHO it was?) standing next to her cameraman? I don't understand why it makes any difference.

Disneychick75 · Aug 28, 2015

dinolounger said:
I've already seen these and they underscore what I again heard in direct interviews with some of his previous co-workers. He was pushy, impatient, had a short temper and could be very intimidating. Were those grounds to put him on warning and eventual termination? Certainly. Would those have been grounds for the white coat patrol to come pick him up and take him into protective custody? If so, I can think of scores of people in organizations I've worked in who never threatened or physically harmed anyone but because of their flawed, nasty personalities would also have been hauled away.

There's a big difference between someone just being a grade A piece of work vs. a full-blown homicidal threat.

And I don't trust bureaucrats to make the distinction.

The letter was posted to point out that Bryce Williams was a jerk. Mental illness has been discused on the thread but I don't think he was ill. After reading different articles, I think he was a racist as bad as Dylan Roof.

BostonJP · Aug 28, 2015

Disneychick75 said:
The letter was posted to point out that Bryce Williams was a jerk. Mental illness has been discused on the thread but I don't think he was ill. After reading different articles, I think he was a racist as bad as Dylan Roof.

A racist? Or just somebody who uses his race to fuel his hate of everyone around him? I think it is easy to arrive at that conclusion, but I do not believe he was a classic textbook racist. He was a professional victim (an "injustice collector" as referenced earlier) who leaned significantly on his own race as cause for injustice.

Mizzoufan · Aug 28, 2015

They said on he news that he planned to run. In his car they found wigs and 3 different licenese plates. Also, they said afterwards he had made a mistake in a text to a friend.

Disneychick75 · Aug 28, 2015

BostonJP said:
A racist? Or just somebody who uses his race to fuel his hate of everyone around him? I think it is easy to arrive at that conclusion, but I do not believe he was a classic textbook racist. He was a professional victim (an "injustice collector" as referenced earlier) who leaned significantly on his own race as cause for injustice.

I thought someone who deliberately went looking to shoot White people is a racist in the same way that Dylan Roof went looking to shoot Black people.
Williams said, " As for Dylan Roof? You ----! You want a race war ----? BRING IT THEN YOU WHITE ----!!!"

TAX GUY · Aug 28, 2015

TAX GUY said:
Absolutely true. Even with that said, your suggestions of changing laws (pretty sure you mean gun laws) still won't prevent crimes like this from happening. Even if side arms are banned or didn't exist, people in this state of mind (or however you want to label it) will find ways. Knife, bat, crow bar, rock, vehicle, pen...... we can't simply blame the instrument used.

I'm just going to add this to my above post... (I know its a bit off topic but felt it fitting based on some of the replies)

sam_gordon · Aug 28, 2015

Disneychick75 said:
I thought someone who deliberately went looking to shoot White people is a racist in the same way that Dylan Roof went looking to shoot Black people.
Williams said, " As for Dylan Roof? You ----! You want a race war ----? BRING IT THEN YOU WHITE ----!!!"

I don't think he went looking to shoot white people. He went looking to shoot people he felt "wronged" him. I'm not saying he's not a racist, but I feel this attack is different than someone who murders another simply because of skin color.

robinb · Aug 28, 2015

TAX GUY said:
I'm just going to add this to my above post... (I know its a bit off topic but felt it fitting based on some of the replies)

Apparently gun control is now considered 'political' so I cannot respond to your bait. I hope you understand :flower3:

.

Mizzoufan · Aug 28, 2015

I don't feel like this was a race motivated crime.

Mizzoufan · Aug 28, 2015

robinb said:
Apparently gun control is now considered 'political' so I cannot respond to your bait. I hope you understand .

You did respond though.

Reporter and Camerman killed on air.

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