Something to consider is that with all the AP classes the kids can take these days, often students have taken a lot of their general ed classes before they even get to college. My DD took so many that she entered college as a sophomore and was put more or less into her major.
OT: Looking at College Financial Aid Calculations. How close are they?
- Thread starter MinnieForMe
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tvguy
Question anything the facts don't support.
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- Dec 15, 2003
Not sure why I would move to North Dakota to pay double what tuition is here.
Where is here?, it might be helpful for people who are looking at this to know which states currently have reasonable tuition for residents. Or good reciprocity arrangements. Some people do have flexible enough employment arrangements and sizable enough family contributions that moving might make sense.
Minnesota has reciprocity with North Dakota and Wisconsin - Wisconsin is still pretty pricey to to to UW Madison under reciprocity - but the NDSU system under reciprocity is $7500 in tuition (plus room and board) and UND is still just over $9k (so you DON'T need to live in North Dakota, you can live in Minneapolis - still cold - a friend of mine has her oldest at UND majoring in Engineering).
We almost moved to Oregon a few years ago - the Western states have an excellent reciprocity agreement between them that doesn't include most flagship schools, but can get you to a lot of state schools out West for what passes for reasonable in college tuition costs.
And that does bring up something about college tuitions....we oversaved for my son and undersaved for my daughter.
My son has decided to go to trade school. A year of trade school will be $6k, then the union will pick up the next four years of school. Within five years of graduating from high school, he'll make a $50k a year union salary, which will increase as he gains seniority in the system - assuming he stays on the path he is on.
Not a bad deal.
On the other end of the spectrum, my daughter wants to go to a private four year college out East. She'll end up with $50k a year plus in tuition, room and board. The stretch schools she would like to go to won't accept AP credit, so although she'll have a year plus of AP credit behind her, it won't apply if she makes it into those schools. Then she'll end up with loans for law school - should she stay on the path she is on. Her brother will be making money for almost a decade before she gets her first real job and even with saving, she'll show up at her first job with six figures in student loan debt.
That would be a bad deal had we not saved for it - and will end up with spare 529 money from saving for two college educations. Though she's well funded enough that even if he went to a four year school, we could make up the difference without loans - we might just have to work more than we want.
In between the extremes of my children's post high school education plans (and there is the "do nothing" and the "join the military" plan as well), there are still a lot of choices. Cheapest tends to be community college, then the state college system followed by your state university. Remember reciprocity agreements. Private colleges are going to be the priciest full price tags, and SOMETIMES have better financial aid packages - the problem can be when a teenager gets their heart set on spendy private school and the final price tag for the private school - even after aid - comes in a lot higher than the state school.
Anyone reading this with young kids should start saving now, and if you know someone with young kids, warn them. This comes faster than you think. And little things, plus reasonable choices for school, DO make a difference - but you might need to give up cable tv and plan on sending your kids to school in North Dakota. Don't promise your kids the moon unless you are prepared to finance the trip - because the chances that someone else will are fairly slim.
My son has decided to go to trade school. A year of trade school will be $6k, then the union will pick up the next four years of school. Within five years of graduating from high school, he'll make a $50k a year union salary, which will increase as he gains seniority in the system - assuming he stays on the path he is on.
Not a bad deal.
On the other end of the spectrum, my daughter wants to go to a private four year college out East. She'll end up with $50k a year plus in tuition, room and board. The stretch schools she would like to go to won't accept AP credit, so although she'll have a year plus of AP credit behind her, it won't apply if she makes it into those schools. Then she'll end up with loans for law school - should she stay on the path she is on. Her brother will be making money for almost a decade before she gets her first real job and even with saving, she'll show up at her first job with six figures in student loan debt.
That would be a bad deal had we not saved for it - and will end up with spare 529 money from saving for two college educations. Though she's well funded enough that even if he went to a four year school, we could make up the difference without loans - we might just have to work more than we want.
In between the extremes of my children's post high school education plans (and there is the "do nothing" and the "join the military" plan as well), there are still a lot of choices. Cheapest tends to be community college, then the state college system followed by your state university. Remember reciprocity agreements. Private colleges are going to be the priciest full price tags, and SOMETIMES have better financial aid packages - the problem can be when a teenager gets their heart set on spendy private school and the final price tag for the private school - even after aid - comes in a lot higher than the state school.
Anyone reading this with young kids should start saving now, and if you know someone with young kids, warn them. This comes faster than you think. And little things, plus reasonable choices for school, DO make a difference - but you might need to give up cable tv and plan on sending your kids to school in North Dakota. Don't promise your kids the moon unless you are prepared to finance the trip - because the chances that someone else will are fairly slim.
This is true. Unfortunately hardly anyone is actually saving. I work in finance and most families don't even have an adequate emergency fund, so their retirement and college savings are often non-existent (or at least grossly insufficient).
That said, financial aid is still based on your income. Sure, they're not expecting you to pay 40% of the current year's income (as you mention they expect you've been saving as well), but the EFC is determined by this year's income with the assumption that it has been and will continue to be your income.
For example, two families with a $75k income: one has parents in their early 50s who had been making $100k for the last 25 years; the other parents in their 30s who had been below the poverty level until this year. Both could have the same EFC because they both have the same income, but one had the opportunity to save and the other did not.
tvguy
Question anything the facts don't support.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2003
In my earlier posts I mentioned, California State University. That's resident tuition, not non-resident.
tvguy
Question anything the facts don't support.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2003
These days more and more colleges are not allowing credit for AP classes. As my son's college put it, "we want our students to take our version of the classes, not some generic version". It doesn't hurt to take AP classes, just don't expect to get credit for them from a college.
our local high school is trying something new for next year as an alternative to the ap class route. they worked out something with our state colleges and universities where about 5 of the traditional classes that are offered as ap along with 2 others that are not have been re-worked to have the identical curriculum and grading standards as their college counterparts. the high school will purchase the identical textbooks that are required at the college level for these courses, and starting next year students taking those classes have the option of getting college credit for them-accepted at any of our state institutions. we already have the option for juniors and seniors to attend any of our state colleges and universities free (and the general ed credits they take cover their high school requirements for those 2 years) but the thought is to offer an option in-house that will expose the students to what an actual college course is like. if they opt to go to school in state they will have some classes already done, and if they don't and can't transfer the credits they will still have a head start on what that particular course will be like.
If you have your kids straight out of high school - and are still in your 30s when they start college - that decision to have your kids early will cost you.
We have College in the Schools coursework taught through the University of Minnesota. Its a UofM credit in addition to a high school credit, so you transfer a college transcript over. We also have the option for AP coursework AND PSEO in Minnesota (Post Secondary Enrollment Option). The UofM is highly selective for PSEO, but the local community college will take just about any student who can walk and chew gum.
BUT, those sorts of options aren't available in all states, and in Minnesota, its hard to take advantage of classes at the U if you live in Alexandria.
We have College in the Schools coursework taught through the University of Minnesota. Its a UofM credit in addition to a high school credit, so you transfer a college transcript over. We also have the option for AP coursework AND PSEO in Minnesota (Post Secondary Enrollment Option). The UofM is highly selective for PSEO, but the local community college will take just about any student who can walk and chew gum.
BUT, those sorts of options aren't available in all states, and in Minnesota, its hard to take advantage of classes at the U if you live in Alexandria.
Colleen27
DIS Veteran
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- Mar 31, 2007
And they assume you've been doing so at more or less the same income you have at the time the kids head off to college, so if you started a business or experienced a prolonged layoff/underemployment or opted for one parent to leave the workforce for a time or experienced other circumstances that dramatically reduced the family's means for a period of time you are likely well behind the formula's idea of "reasonable savings".
We've been warned about this from other parents and recently from my own college adviser - I'll be finishing my degree less than a year before my oldest starts college, and we'll be a two-income family for the first time this century just as we're filling out the FAFSA for the first of the kids. We're bracing for that to really hurt because the funding equations will not take any of that into account. The assumption of our ability to save will be well above the reality of our circumstances over the last 17 years, so we fully expect our EFC to be well above anything we could reasonably afford.
tvguy
Question anything the facts don't support.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2003
That was your choice, and I suspect a good one, but it has financial consequences. The dirty little secret of paying for college is that the colleges and the Federal government consider money borrow to pay for college on equal footing as savings, scholarships and grants. Like my kids high school college planner put it, " a college will not admit a student that can't pay to go there." They just may not like the things they are going to have to do to pay for it.
runwad
Dis Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2006
This was our second year filling out the FASFA as our DD is a freshman in college. Last year her college sent us the beginning of March what her aid package would be. But we've not gotten it yet this year. Do you get it later subsequent years and when???
Forget it, DD just sent me this email. Wow June that seems so late:
We begin mailing Award Proposals for new freshman, new graduate students, and new law students in March and will continue to mail them throughout the school year. Continuing students may check their site for Awards beginning in June.
Forget it, DD just sent me this email. Wow June that seems so late:
We begin mailing Award Proposals for new freshman, new graduate students, and new law students in March and will continue to mail them throughout the school year. Continuing students may check their site for Awards beginning in June.
Colleen27
DIS Veteran
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- Mar 31, 2007
Yeah and we've certainly made other choices that have an impact too, not the least of which is sending two of our three kids to private school. I'm not complaining. But being forewarned we know to tread carefully in our career choices as we get to the college years. It is something I didn't really think of before going back to school but I'm glad I'm aware of now, because my eventual income could mean the difference between generous need-based aid and next to nothing, even though the colleges DD is looking at cost considerably more per year than I expect to make.
As far as not admitting students that can't afford to go there, I'm not sure that's true. I was admitted to colleges I'd have needed to borrow far more than established loan limits to attend, even years ago when college was relatively more affordable. There's an assumption that students bound for college have a credit-worthy parent available and willing to extend their ability to borrow via PLUS or private loans, and in situations where that is not the case students can and do run out of money to borrow before graduation. Maybe not in California - I am rather jealous of the cheap tuition even though I don't envy you the overall cost of living - but in states like mine where even lower-level public universities have surpassed $20K/year, the current $31K limit on undergrad borrowing doesn't go very far.
tvguy
Question anything the facts don't support.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2003
We went the private school route too with both our kids, so paying tuition was just another monthly bill. And in Dd's case, California State University cost half what her high school tuition was.
Mersmom98
Mouseketeer
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
My son is only eligible for student loans, so it's not cutting into any grants for us. Good point if you are eligible for grants, but for those that are in the same boat as us and only eligible for loans the time and effort are worth it.
As for the comments stating "you should be saving for college even before your children are born"...Well, duh...but those holier than thou comments do nothing to help those of us that are trying to send kids to college in the next year or so. How about some real advice or some encouragement?
My advice still goes back to scholarships for those that won't be penalized. One of the scholarships that my son received had 2 recipients out of only 5 applicants. FIVE! There's a lot of money being left on the table so encourage your kids to fill them out. A lot of times you can easily tweak an essay that's already been written to apply to the next scholarship.
Marionnette
Children see magic because they look for it
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2009
I think those comments that you view as "holier than thou" is just sound advice to young families from people who have BTDT. Not everyone reading this thread has a kid in their last few years of high school.
Having sent 3 off to college (the last one graduates in just a little over a month!), I cannot tell you how helpful it was to follow that advice from the time that the kids were little. It isn't something that you intuitively know. Someone with more experience had to tell us what to expect. College costs have gone through the roof since the day that our first was born and grant money has become harder to get.
Face it, it is much easier to save a couple of hundred dollars a month in a college account for the kids than it is to come up with thousands of dollars for tuition in that short period between college acceptance and the fall freshman semester! It may not be something that YOU want to hear now because that horse left the gate a long time ago. But someone with a young child may benefit from that tidbit of wisdom.
As far as any advice for those of you who are facing those huge college costs very soon, my nugget of advice is NOT to co-sign any loans for your kids. YOU become responsible for that debt the moment you put your name on the paper. If your child cannot pay what they owe each month, the bank will come after you! It can ruin your retirement plans and wreck your credit. If you want to help your child out, then pay the interest on their student loans for them while they are in school but make them take sole responsibility for any money that they borrow.
Colleen27
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2007
See, here it is just the opposite. Before financial aid DD's high school tuition is a fraction of the cost of the cheapest in-state universities. And she has academic and service scholarships that cover part of her tuition. What we'll spend for four years of high school will fall short of covering even a single year at a state university. But we do think of it as an investment - at the private high school she's already working with a counselor to plan her schedule (starting in 8th grade because she is taking her math there this year) with her college and career goals in mind, and as an upperclassman she'll have access to another counselor who does nothing but college admissions and scholarships. And they get results - last year's graduating class of about 50 kids got a combined 2.5 million dollars worth of gift aid.
FYI: There is nothing magical about California tuition rates. California has two different college systems. California State University tuition rates are more reasonable (between 6200 and 8000/year resident tuition+fees, depending on the campus, assuming 2 semesters per year and no summer school); University of California rates are much higher (> 14K per year and rising quickly). Many people think the UC degrees are more "prestigious" but that really depends on the degree. There are a few I'd try to go with the UC system for, but 5 years down the road after graduation for most things either degree will be just fine.
Room and board follows the same pattern - generally more expensive at the UCs and cheaper at the Cal States although the difference isn't as dramatic as the tuition differences, and some CalStates are nearly the same cost as the UCs. Room and board is in the 11-15K range per year.
It's all still about having to make the hard choices. If you want to go to a UC and live on campus, the cost is about 30K/year. Insanity if you don't have some sort of college savings in place. If you go to a Cal State and are able to live at home, you can do it for about $7K/year.
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Something similar I'm hearing of lately: The more competative colleges are allowing credit for AP classes ... but they're only counting them as elective credits.
Of course, this doesn't mean that the AP class was time wasted. An elective credit is still valuable, and taking the academic class again should be easier for the student who's taken the AP class in high school.
I don't believe this thread is blocked for people who have young children, so advising parents to save from the very beginning IS good advice! It's also not really rocket science, but it does require forethought and discipline. I suspect most parents have good intentions, but there's this idea that LATER you'll have more money -- that once day care is behind you, that once you've had a raise, that once both spouses are working again -- you'll have more money, but in this thought process, LATER never arrives. If it matters to you, start early.
In my experience, scholarship money isn't being left on the table. A few students apply for EVERYTHING, and in doing so they "up" their chances of winning something. In general, the scholarships that require an essay receive the least applications, and -- yes -- it's very good advice to save all your essays because often they can be "tweaked" for a different scholarship.
Puffy2
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2000
Try not to freak out when trying to figure out how much college will cost. Sometimes those calculators do reflect reality.
Definitely Definitely Definitely complete the FAFSA every year even if you think you make too much money! The colleges use this when giving out merit awards too. Plus when you have more than one in school, it makes a huge difference too. ALWAYS do the FAFSA and do it early in January even if you have to use estimates.
Apply to schools even if you think they cost too much! You never know how much aid the school will give. My two went to a private school which looks expensive as all hell on the website, but they were both given very good aid packages (that included aid I never even knew was available from the website). So, don't let the sticker price keep you from applying.
and if money is an issue, either stay in-state or only go out of state if the school will offer in-state tuition.
The reality is, a lot of college grads will have difficulty finding employment (or employment that provides a decent wage with benefits). Don't go down the load route unless you absolutely have to.
Definitely Definitely Definitely complete the FAFSA every year even if you think you make too much money! The colleges use this when giving out merit awards too. Plus when you have more than one in school, it makes a huge difference too. ALWAYS do the FAFSA and do it early in January even if you have to use estimates.
Apply to schools even if you think they cost too much! You never know how much aid the school will give. My two went to a private school which looks expensive as all hell on the website, but they were both given very good aid packages (that included aid I never even knew was available from the website). So, don't let the sticker price keep you from applying.
and if money is an issue, either stay in-state or only go out of state if the school will offer in-state tuition.
The reality is, a lot of college grads will have difficulty finding employment (or employment that provides a decent wage with benefits). Don't go down the load route unless you absolutely have to.
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