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The Running Thread - 2016

Just wanted to comment to those who recommended the Tobacco Trail to me for my DD26 - she ran it today and loved it! Said it was super shaded and flat! She did 5 miles today and is going back for a longer run tomorrow. So thanks for the recommendation! :)

So glad she liked it @Dis5150!

Did my long run of 14 miles yesterday! Ran 7 outside then ran out of water so I finished the rest on the treadmill. Worked out well because as soon as I got back, my husband was able to get a run in outside as well. Hoping to double up on water or leave a second bottle stashed somewhere so I can run the whole thing outside this weekend.
 
Congratulations Disney at Heart! I ran this one too!! It was perfect running weather! Great job on your PR!!! :cheer2:
Yes, it was a little cool for me while I was waiting, but doing Triple Peach, I was able to self-seed. I started toward the back of A just so I wouldn't have to wait for the start of other corrals. I am not that fast, but got a head start on the other corrals, stayed to the right and ran my slower pace without clogging up the way for faster runners. Hope it is great weather for the Thanksgiving Half. Will you be there, too?
 
It starts pretty fast usually during the first interval and then tapers to be a bit more consistent for all the other ones. A comfortable running pace for me seems to be around 10:00 at least for the 1:30/3 or 2/2 intervals I've been doing. I've been experimenting trying to find the right interval.

I think someone who has mastered interval walk/run could help more than I can since I haven't done run/walk in a while and not sure I mastered it. But we sound like similar folks since 10 is comfy for you (well you may be a bit speedier than me.)

I tend to think of it this way with my personal running (I don't take walk intervals unless there is an aid station.)
On the road this is me now, but the paces have changed based on current fitness:
Low 9:00s and below = have to focus on breath in & breath out, full max effort, can't talk, just surviving. Only do at short races.
9:20-9:50ish = caveman grunty words can come out, more elonquently and easier the closer to the top of that range.
10:00-10:30ish = working hard but my zen spot. Pushing but comfy. Could hold one sentence conversations or more, could maintain for a long mileage. Known to sing during races.
10:50-11:30ish = easy peasy long run pace. Heart rate not too bad an issue. Could talk your ear off.
12:00-13:00 mollasses range (I like that metaphor)

HOWEVER on a treadmill anything over 9:45 and I feel like I will probably die. Even at 10 I often feel that way. It just doesn't translate for me. Maybe cause I have long legs and I have to turn my feet over so much faster? I dunno. It could be my gyms treadmills are callibrated horribly because I've had people tell me it is the opposite for them. I often need to set my treadmill at a 1 elevation just to feel like it's not going to rip my legs off at the high speeds.

But now I've rambled. A wise badger taught me how to go off of effort and that's sort of shaped how we figure out paces. For training vs racing. I hope that helps a teeny bit.
 

Yes! I'm doing the triple peach too! See you there! Are you doing any other races around Atlanta this Fall?

You were smart. I self seeded too, but in C. If I did it all over again I would have maybe seeded earlier, as it was a little congested at the start. I thought it was a good race though.
 


Yes! I'm doing the triple peach too! See you there! Are you doing any other races around Atlanta this Fall?

You were smart. I self seeded too, but in C. If I did it all over again I would have maybe seeded earlier, as it was a little congested at the start. I thought it was a good race though.

No more Atlanta races until Peach Jam Half (at Forsyth Park near Cumming) in April and Peachtree RR again next year. I live at least 2 hours away and traffic is so horrible that the time often turns into 3+ hours on bad traffic days. We usually come in the day before the races.
I started in Corral A at the Thanksgiving Half last year and had my "next-to-best" that day; only missed PR by a couple of minutes. Oh, that Porta-Potty stop!
 
I have a question about how people learn to pace. I've been training with walk/run intervals and I've noticed that when I hit a run interval, I'm clocking anywhere from 8:30-11:00 miles. I slow down to walk about a 15:00-16:00 mile. When I'm on the treadmill at the gym, I feel like I can go for a much longer run time when I'm forced to set a pace (12m mile). I'm less winded so I need less recovery time.

I got a garmin watch this last week and tried to actively stay around a 12:00 pace but failed. The slowest I could go without feeling like I was trudging through molasses was 11:00ish.

Suggestions?

-What are some of your recent race times that you feel would be the most representative of your current fitness level? From this I could get an idea as to what paces you would be around and possibly help explain the feelings you're having when running.

-How far were you running the 12 min/mile on the treadmill? How far outside at 12 min/mile before stopping and switching to 11 min/mile?

-Sounds like the 12 min/mile on the treadmill is harder (because not molasses feeling) than outside 12 min/mile, would you agree?

-During your run/walk intervals, what does the run "feel" like? Is this the fastest you can run for 90-120 seconds (8:30-11:00) and then you need the walk, or is it something that only feels like it needs a walk until later in the entire run?

-Have you ever done run/walk where your runs start at 11:00 and work down towards a 8:30, instead of the reverse?

-In most of your races, do you tend to negative split, even split, or positive split?
 
Training starts in the morning - and I'm so excited! I'm like a kid on Christmas Eve ... which, I know sounds weird.

But it's been a pretty rough week. We made it out here to Florida, but my oldest dog basically died in my arms on Thursday morning and my husband had to give him CPR - and while he's still here, and is totally fine at the moment, the multiple vets we've seen have NO idea what's wrong with him and it's just very stressful. I'm not sleeping well, and I'm just following him around making sure he's fine - I'm sure he's annoyed by me stressing out over him too. It's just a crap situation all around.

Hope everyone has a great week!!

I'm so excited for you getting to train! Let us know how it goes!

I'm so sorry about your dog. I have been through that, and it is is one of the hardest things I've ever gone through.
 


-What are some of your recent race times that you feel would be the most representative of your current fitness level? From this I could get an idea as to what paces you would be around and possibly help explain the feelings you're having when running.

I did a 10k about 2 weeks ago and finished in 1:22:36. It was my first 10k and had a ton of hills that I walked the entirety of. My splits were:

12:34 (I ran a bit more than normal. Go go race adrenaline)
12:41
13:39
13:55
14:35
13:33
8:51 (the last .11 miles)

-How far were you running the 12 min/mile on the treadmill? How far outside at 12 min/mile before stopping and switching to 11 min/mile?

I only did a couple mile son the treadmill. About all I can take before boredom sets in. I never did manage to make a 12 min/mile when I went out to run yesterday. Slowest I managed was 11:30 min/mile when running. I kept thinking I was going slower and then I'd look at the watch and go, nope.. still faster than I thought. I should probably note that I am a super fast walker so maybe that is throwing everything off for me and why 12:00 min/miles seems so slow.

-Sounds like the 12 min/mile on the treadmill is harder (because not molasses feeling) than outside 12 min/mile, would you agree?

Absolutely agree.

-During your run/walk intervals, what does the run "feel" like? Is this the fastest you can run for 90-120 seconds (8:30-11:00) and then you need the walk, or is it something that only feels like it needs a walk until later in the entire run?

I really only feel like I need the walk later in the run. With the 10k I ran, I think I ran 3 minutes or so before stopping to walk then resumed my intervals of walking/running. The recovery on that first spurt was rough because I ran my throat dry and didn't bring water with me. Still managed to recover enough to kick off next interval though.

-Have you ever done run/walk where your runs start at 11:00 and work down towards a 8:30, instead of the reverse?

I have not.

-In most of your races, do you tend to negative split, even split, or positive split?

I'm still fairly new to this whole thing so not sure is the best I can answer there.
 
I'm still fairly new to this whole thing so not sure is the best I can answer there.
Negative split: you get faster as the race goes on
Even split: your pace stays pretty consistent through the whole run
Positive split: you slow down as the race goes on (story of my life lately, sigh...) :)
 
Negative split: you get faster as the race goes on
Even split: your pace stays pretty consistent through the whole run
Positive split: you slow down as the race goes on (story of my life lately, sigh...) :)

Oh in the case, guess I'm pretty even split.
 
@mbwhitti is a Chicago Marathon finisher as well! With a 39-minute PR!!

Whoa! Awesome!!

Great run @gjramsey and to @mbwhitti . So fun to get into the fall weather and more races!!

Congratulations @gjramsey and @mbwhitti!


THANK YOU EVERYONE!! First time back on the DIS in a while so I'm just catching up. Chicago was an amazing bucket list race. Perfect weather. I got super sick 5 days before the race... a fever and chills that the doc couldn't diagnose, so I was super proud to have pulled off a 40 minute PR. I could not have done it without my support crew through the training. @Keels never gave up on me and "quit" was never an option! I would definitely do this race again.... now my sights are on NYC hopefully next year!
 
Sorry you had a rough one Baloo, but glad you could take away some positives. I wanted to try the pickle juice, but I had never tried it before, so I didn't dare. Oh man did it smell good though!


Honestly, it tasted horrible! I normally would not try something new in a race, but at that point I was like - it can't get worse! I think it made a difference. But not my favorite thing I have ever had.

Congrats again!
 
I did a 10k about 2 weeks ago and finished in 1:22:36. It was my first 10k and had a ton of hills that I walked the entirety of. My splits were:

12:34 (I ran a bit more than normal. Go go race adrenaline)
12:41
13:39
13:55
14:35
13:33
8:51 (the last .11 miles)

Since this race had so many hills is there another race that you've done recently? Because of the hills, it might not be a good fitness test race. If this were your current fitness, then these are the paces I calculate for you:

Screen Shot 2016-10-24 at 8.54.57 PM.png

How does the 5K of 39:35 compare to your current PR (or recent time within the last 6 months)?

Your calculated mile race pace is 11:27 min/mile and calculated 400m is 2:20 (9:20 min/mile). What's interesting is that if you are run/walking a 13:44 min/mile with a 16:00 min walk and a 2:2 interval, then you're running an ~11:35 min/mile for 2 minutes. So essentially, you're running roughly mile pace for 0.172 miles and then walking 0.125 miles. But even getting anywhere close to a 8:30 min/mile means you're going faster than calculated 400m race pace. That's really fast for your calculated fitness level and likely places you in a huge hole for later in the race.

To hit a 13:19 min/mile, then it would be 16:00 min/mile walk with 11:00 min/mile run using a 2:2 interval.

A big key to run/walk (and essentially all running) is your Lactate Threshold. Your ability to maintain a pace roughly for an hour. The faster you run past that pace, the more fatigue you build-up. Run/walk is primarily based on Lactate Threshold pacing. The idea is that you run for a brief period of time, then walk to allow your body to clear the fatigue, and then start running again. All runners have unique qualities that we naturally gravitate towards to maximize our abilities. Some people are really good at Lactate Threshold runs, and others are really good at maintaining a single pace for a long duration. These two people may end up having the same average mile pace but approach how to get there differently. Interestingly the person good at LT runs may not be able to maintain the same pace at a single pace, and vice versa the single pace runner may not be able to do the LT runs. What's critical for all of us is to find out what works best for us through trial and error.

As an example, per my calculation my mile race pace is 6:01 and 400m is 1:14 (4:56 min/mile). The fastest mile I've ever done is 6:42. And I've never sniffed a 4:56 min/mile, no matter the distance. I am not good at Lactate Threshold paced runs. I am not a good run/walker as speed intervals (essentially the same as run/walk) are the biggest problem area in my running repertoire. I could run a 8:00 min/mile for 8 miles significantly easier then doing speed intervals of 6:45 min/mile and recovery running for 8 miles. If the above paces are accurate for you, then you are an excellent LT runner and are a great candidate for run/walk.

I only did a couple mile son the treadmill. About all I can take before boredom sets in. I never did manage to make a 12 min/mile when I went out to run yesterday. Slowest I managed was 11:30 min/mile when running. I kept thinking I was going slower and then I'd look at the watch and go, nope.. still faster than I thought. I should probably note that I am a super fast walker so maybe that is throwing everything off for me and why 12:00 min/miles seems so slow.

So what this really says to me is your question is: I want to run a 12:00 min/mile, but biomechanically I can't get it to work. I can't run slow enough without feeling like I'm not running anymore.

Is this an accurate rephrasing of your thoughts on an outside 12:00 min/mile pace? If so, I know a few people running in the 14:00-15:00 min/mile paces that might be able to make some suggestions to you on how they biomechanically are running those paces.

Were you capturing this 11:30 min/mile pace via "lap pace" or "instantaneous pace" on the Garmin? I'm partial to lap pace because of the wide variability of instantaneous pace. I also find that when people use instantaneous pace, they are constantly making micro adjustments to their pace to try and stay within a window. Mentally this is taxing. And based on my research it may actually increase the perception of effort. Thus causing an easy "physical" pace to become harder, even though it isn't per se.

Absolutely agree.

I really only feel like I need the walk later in the run. With the 10k I ran, I think I ran 3 minutes or so before stopping to walk then resumed my intervals of walking/running. The recovery on that first spurt was rough because I ran my throat dry and didn't bring water with me. Still managed to recover enough to kick off next interval though.

So as we discussed prior, if you skip a run/walk interval then you put yourself in a deficit to what your training style is. It increases your fatigue sooner and will make the run more difficult at the end. If I were to advise you on race strategy, I would recommend doing your best not to skip any of your normal run/walk intervals, and to try and make your first run sequence your slowest.

I have not.

Try it and see if the run goes better. Essentially by starting slower in the beginning of the run/race it allows all of the body's mechanisms to be primed and ready to go.

Oh in the case, guess I'm pretty even split.

That's ideal. Anytime you fade at the end of a race or any training run suggests that the pace was too much for you. So if during training you find you're constantly finishing your runs slower than you started, then try starting even slower until you finish at the same pace or faster. This will help retrain your body (especially for race day). But if you're even splitting then you should be fine here.

Here's the key question - If I were to say run as slow as you can whereas it feels as if you never need to take a walking break, what pace would that be at?

The one thing I'll add is that I only train at my desired race pace or faster for about 20% of my total weekly time training. The other 80% of the time I train slower (much much slower). So you might also find that you'll race faster by training slower. I race a marathon in 7:44, but today I ran a 10:07 min/mile (granted I'm still recovering, but it's still to say I train slow).

Lastly, based on Galloway's website it would appear a 90:180 or 120:120 (in seconds) run interval doesn't really appear.

Screen Shot 2016-10-24 at 9.54.35 PM.png

Looks like you should be more in the 30/30 or 60/30 area. Have you tried those intervals for longer distances?

And based on his magic mile calculator your training paces should be around a 16:53 min/mile.

Screen Shot 2016-10-24 at 9.56.30 PM.png

Although, I'm in no way a Galloway expert.

Thoughts?
 
Some thoughts based on the above :)

Galloway's recommendations are definitely no more than 30s walk intervals. The greatest portion of your recovery all happens within the first 30s of it, so you are just slowing yourself down more when you walk > 30s. That being said, I will definitely end up walking > 30s if it's particularly hilly. :o

I have a hard time running much slower than 12:00 min pace when I'm actually running, too. I'm 6'0" tall with long legs... even when I try to shuffle at my slowest shuffle, I can't really go much slower than that, and it's actually harder for me to run that slow sometimes than it is to move forward faster. I feel like I am plodding along and landing with a lot of heavy downward force on my knees when I try to run that slow. While I certainly have had plenty of runs where my pace was 13:00 or more, the slowdowns all come from walking more than normal.
 
No more Atlanta races until Peach Jam Half (at Forsyth Park near Cumming) in April and Peachtree RR again next year. I live at least 2 hours away and traffic is so horrible that the time often turns into 3+ hours on bad traffic days. We usually come in the day before the races.
I started in Corral A at the Thanksgiving Half last year and had my "next-to-best" that day; only missed PR by a couple of minutes. Oh, that Porta-Potty stop!

I've run the Peach Jam Half a couple of times. Nice small race on the same Greenway I do pretty much all my training runs on.
 
Good morning folks. Was feeling a bit under the weather yesterday. Still not 100% and not even sure if I will run tonight or not. Feeling a bit tired still...

QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?

ATTQOTD: For some reason I have not. I know our local running group is planning on doing a costume run this week, but I have trouble making it to the groups run as they happen fairly early in the afternoon.
 
@DopeyBadger Wow, that was an amazing breakdown! Thank you so much for sharing the science behind running. Can I ask for input too? My 5k PR is 34:39 and my 10k PR is 1:14:21. But my half marathon PR is 2:56:55. I use run/walk intervals because when I've tried to run a 5k the whole way through, my average time ends up being slower. My current intervals are 2 minutes running to 30 seconds walking. According to the pace calculator, I should be able to do a 2:45 half? I just haven't been able to do that. Now maybe it's just race conditions in that the half's have been hilly or windy/rainy and the 5k/10k was flat... My goal half in December is flat so I'm interested to see how that works out.

As for the QOTD, my only costume runs have been at Disney, Wine and Dine 2015 and ToT 2014.
 
QOTD: With Halloween just around the corner, I thought I ask if you have you ever done a costume type run?

Yes, our local, informal running group does a Halloween run every year early on Halloween morning, so we all dress up, then there is a different route each year that goes by certain runners houses, and there are treats at each house (GU, throw-away knit gloves... whatever each person decides). It's pretty fun, although I've only made it one year so far.
 

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