.

[kahblue]

I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if this was said. If you buy the dining plan then you should be able to make advanced reservations at some point. I know I would be mad if I purchased it and then couldn't find anywhere to eat that makes it worth it. Not sure how to handle the fairness of who can and who can't make advanced reservations. We only eat at one or two table restaurants when we're there and make plans once we're there which works out fine.

 

[disneysteve]

I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if this was said. If you buy the dining plan then you should be able to make advanced reservations at some point. I know I would be mad if I purchased it and then couldn't find anywhere to eat that makes it worth it.

That's an excellent point. I've never had a dining plan and don't ever intend to but if I did, I totally agree. I'd want to be able to get my money's worth at places I want to eat.

 

[SorcererHeidi]

I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if this was said. If you buy the dining plan then you should be able to make advanced reservations at some point. I know I would be mad if I purchased it and then couldn't find anywhere to eat that makes it worth it. Not sure how to handle the fairness of who can and who can't make advanced reservations. We only eat at one or two table restaurants when we're there and make plans once we're there which works out fine.

Great point, hadn't even thought of that! When I've been either the decision maker, gone solo, or not gone as a guest of DVC'ers who didn't want to do the dining plan, I'e always had it, and what you say TOTALLY makes sense.

 

[loves to dive]

I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if this was said. If you buy the dining plan then you should be able to make advanced reservations at some point. I know I would be mad if I purchased it and then couldn't find anywhere to eat that makes it worth it. Not sure how to handle the fairness of who can and who can't make advanced reservations. We only eat at one or two table restaurants when we're there and make plans once we're there which works out fine.

Way back in the day before ADRs made far in advance, we would get the dining plan and at that time it included 3 TS meals. We had no problems, I think maybe you could have made them a week out, it was a long time ago so the memory isn't what it should be. We always just made what we wanted when we got there and had no problems. We don't get the dining plan any more and still eat about 4 TS out of 6 nights and don't make ADRs in advance, just morning of and no problems. We are flexible about times and places but have always been, even when my son was a little boy, I've always thought he should experience new things so he was and is very flexible.

 

[SorcererHeidi]

Way back in the day before ADRs made far in advance, we would get the dining plan and at that time it included 3 TS meals. We had no problems, I think maybe you could have made them a week out, it was a long time ago so the memory isn't what it should be. We always just made what we wanted when we got there and had no problems. We don't get the dining plan any more and still eat about 4 TS out of 6 nights and don't make ADRs in advance, just morning of and no problems. We are flexible about times and places but have always been, even when my son was a little boy, I've always thought he should experience new things so he was and is very flexible.

Yeah, but crowds, and competition for ADR's have grown considerably since "back in the day". I started going just about every year back in early '93, and I've seen a HUMUNGOUS change since then. And I don't want to have to scurry around "last minute" to get somewhere I feel is a good expense of my dining credits, and could possibly be a waste of time if I have to park hop, or go to a resort because nothing is open when/where i am, or is convenient. Or maybe I don't want to spend to buy a park hopper option, and would have to maybe do that to get something that's open. If I had ADR's and had planned ahead, all the planning of when/where to be if I was on the dining plan would already be done, and I wouldn't have to do it WHILE on vacation, and supposed to be CHILLING (at least as much as you can @ WDW).

 

[disneysteve]

crowds... have grown considerably

I've said this in numerous threads on various topics. The #1 problem at Disney World today is the crowds. Almost everything that we all complain about and stress about can be linked to the crowding issue. A park that originally saw 4-5 million visitors per year now sees nearly 20 million. Growth like that has to cause problems somewhere. It shows up in ride wait times. It shows up in character meet and greets. It shows up in dining availability. It shows up everywhere.

 

[JimmyV]

Yeah, but crowds, and competition for ADR's have grown considerably since "back in the day". I started going just about every year back in early '93, and I've seen a HUMUNGOUS change since then.

A park that originally saw 4-5 million visitors per year now sees nearly 20 million.

And yet...attendance is only up marginally since 1991. From 1991 through 1996, there was a significant drop-off in MK attendance. Then it spiked. And then it dropped again until a fairly steady rise in the past few years. All in all, the MK in 2014 was up only slightly from 1991. So yes, if you first started going in 1993, you had it great. But that was a trough and not the norm.

2014 = 19.3 million or 53k/day (52,876)
2013 = 18.6 million or 51k/day (50,958)
2012 = 17.5 million or 48k/day (47,814) *366 days
2011 = 17.1 million or 47k/day (46,849)
2010 = 16.9 million or 46k/day (46,301)
2009 = 17.2 million or 47k/day (47,123)
2008 = 17.0 million or 46k/day (46,448) *366 days
2007 = 17.0 million or 46k/day (46,575)
2006 = 16.6 million or 45k/day (45,479)
2005 = 16.2 million or 44k/day (44,383)
2004 = 15.1 million or 41k/day (41,256) *366 days
2003 = 14.04 million or 38k/day (38,465)
2002 = 14 million or or 38k/day (38,356)
2001 = 14.7 million or 40k/day (40,273)
2000 = 15.4 million or 42k/day (42,076) *366 days
1999 = 15.2 million or 41k/day (41,643)
1998 = 15.64 million or 43k/day (42,849)
1997 = 17.0 million or 46k/day (46,575)
1996 = 13.8 million or 37k/day (37,704) *366 days
1995 = 12.9 million or 35k/day (35,342)
1994 = 11.2 million or 31k/day (30,684)
1993 = 12.0 million or 33k/day (32,876)
1992 = 11.5 million or 31k/day (31,420) *366 days
1991 = 18.0 million or 49k/day (49,315)

Epcot figures are harder to come by, but in 1997, the attendance was reported to be 11.8 million. Compare that to the past 4 years for which we have data:

2014 = 11.4 million
2013 = 11.2 million
2012 = 11.1 million
2011 = 10.8 million

So Epcot (where many of the most sought after restaurants are) has seen no growth since 1997.

 

[disneysteve]

And yet...attendance is only up marginally since 1991.

Ah, gotta love statistics.

1991 was clearly an aberration on that list. I would attribute that to the 20th anniversary celebration which really drew people in. Scratch that year off the list and look at what's left - a pretty steady climb from 11.2 million to 19.3 million from 1992 to 2014.

So Epcot (where many of the most sought after restaurants are)

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. CRT, BOG, pretty much any of the character meals in parks or hotels, Ohana, SciFi, 50s Prime Time, etc. are all in high demand.

Purely anecdotal, but I've been going to WDW almost every year since 1978. I am absolutely sure that the place is more crowded than ever before. Traffic, parking, lines, restaurants, the whole experience, even at what used to be slow times. We talk about it all the time. "Slow season" doesn't really exist anymore. There really is no time when the parks are dead like there used to be. My best friend and I used to go during spring break. We would get on BTMRR and ride it over and over and over again, like 10-12 times in a row, each time getting off and running back around to the beginning. Try doing that now during spring break or any time.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

And yet...attendance is only up marginally since 1991. From 1991 through 1996, there was a significant drop-off in MK attendance. Then it spiked. And then it dropped again until a fairly steady rise in the past few years. All in all, the MK in 2014 was up only slightly from 1991. So yes, if you first started going in 1993, you had it great. But that was a trough and not the norm.

2014 = 19.3 million or 53k/day (52,876)
2013 = 18.6 million or 51k/day (50,958)
2012 = 17.5 million or 48k/day (47,814) *366 days
2011 = 17.1 million or 47k/day (46,849)
2010 = 16.9 million or 46k/day (46,301)
2009 = 17.2 million or 47k/day (47,123)
2008 = 17.0 million or 46k/day (46,448) *366 days
2007 = 17.0 million or 46k/day (46,575)
2006 = 16.6 million or 45k/day (45,479)
2005 = 16.2 million or 44k/day (44,383)
2004 = 15.1 million or 41k/day (41,256) *366 days
2003 = 14.04 million or 38k/day (38,465)
2002 = 14 million or or 38k/day (38,356)
2001 = 14.7 million or 40k/day (40,273)
2000 = 15.4 million or 42k/day (42,076) *366 days
1999 = 15.2 million or 41k/day (41,643)
1998 = 15.64 million or 43k/day (42,849)
1997 = 17.0 million or 46k/day (46,575)
1996 = 13.8 million or 37k/day (37,704) *366 days
1995 = 12.9 million or 35k/day (35,342)
1994 = 11.2 million or 31k/day (30,684)
1993 = 12.0 million or 33k/day (32,876)
1992 = 11.5 million or 31k/day (31,420) *366 days
1991 = 18.0 million or 49k/day (49,315)

Epcot figures are harder to come by, but in 1997, the attendance was reported to be 11.8 million. Compare that to the past 4 years for which we have data:

2014 = 11.4 million
2013 = 11.2 million
2012 = 11.1 million
2011 = 10.8 million

So Epcot (where many of the most sought after restaurants are) has seen no growth since 1997.

Though to be fair, 1991 seems to be a spike - and that was Magic Kingdom's 20th anniversary and if my recent experience in Disneyland means anything, anniversaries drive up crowds

Even by your figures, attendance is up almost 30% in 10 years, that's a lot

 

[JimmyV]

1991 was clearly an aberration on that list.

Though to be fair, 1991 seems to be a spike

Maybe. We don't have 1989 or 1990 to compare it to. Also, the "spike" (if that's what it was), applies only to the MK. Epcot has been very, very steady over time, with expected 9/11 fluctuations showing up. But spike or not, it cannot be disputed that the attendance that we are seeing now and the competition for ADRs is not a first. Indeed, in 1991, there were fewer restaurants with just as many people in the parks. And ADRs were not made 180 days in advance. (Back then it was Priority Seating, and I think it was 60 days in advance).

 

[SorcererHeidi]

I distinctly remember my first visit to the MK in Feb. '93 (and I have pics to remember) - the week before Presidents's Day - was a Sunday morning, and I went to Fantasyland. Not a SOUL there when I got there, got my pic taken with Baloo and Big Al (wasn't even quite sure who they were), then rode the Carousel - still no one in sight. From the time I got there (around 9 maybe) until at least noon, everything in Fantasyland was either a total walk on, or MAYBE I had to wait like 5 mins., max. Try that ANYTIME in the last 5-10 years!!

 

[disneysteve]

But spike or not, it cannot be disputed that the attendance that we are seeing now and the competition for ADRs is not a first. Indeed, in 1991, there were fewer restaurants with just as many people in the parks. And ADRs were not made 180 days in advance. (Back then it was Priority Seating, and I think it was 60 days in advance).

A lot of things have changed - not just attendance. People's palates have gotten more sophisticated. People don't eat they way they ate 20 years ago. The number of international guests is far higher. And the internet happened. Sites like this one with photos and menus and dining reviews at our fingertips lead people to go to places that they might not otherwise have even known existed. And let's not forget about the dining plans. That's probably one of the biggest drivers of guests to the TS restaurants. People want to get their money's worth.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

I second this, even CS locations which do the same old Burgers and hot dogs usually seem to do a little something to change it up. Disney is doing well with there CS locations lately.

Yes and no.

It bugs me to no end how few fresh fruits and veggies are offered at WDW. Truth be told, the TS are just as bad these days. I'll never forget one conversation I had where our server flat out told me, "It is more of a garnish than an actual serving."

So at THAT meal I paid extra for a side veggie. As - seriously - often happens at WDW- it arrived CAKED with salt and sitting in a puddle of grease. I should have sent it back, but didn't want to lose another 20minutes of park time. As it was, we'd waited a long time just to be seated.

WDW is in the middle of Florida. There's simply no excuse!

I just find it amazingly lame that The special festivals in Epcot do NOT offer something akin to a fun farmer's market...with ready-to-eat items. Florida grows the best produce in the USA! Why not a citrus stand? (there's a great one just up on route 192.) The Orlando Whole Foods has a fresh juice bar that is excellent.

Deep in FL, there are a host of roadside stands offering all kinds of tropical fruits...and deep FL is almost the only place in the USA to find them. Among the fruits we enjoyed was the best mango I've ever had! We also has some insanely good guacamole, made with FL avocado!

I just can't imagine I'm alone in craving QUALITY healthy foods!

I'm horrified when I see WDW offering items like danish and candy bars that are battered and fried.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Yes and no.

It bugs me to no end how few fresh fruits and veggies are offered at WDW. Truth be told, the TS are just as bad these days. I'll never forget one conversation I had where our server flat out told me, "It is more of a garnish than an actual serving."

So at THAT meal I paid extra for a side veggie. As - seriously - often happens at WDW- it arrived CAKED with salt and sitting in a puddle of grease. I should have sent it back, but didn't want to lose another 20minutes of park time. As it was, we'd waited a long time just to be seated.

WDW is in the middle of Florida. There's simply no excuse!

I just find it amazingly lame that The special festivals in Epcot do NOT offer something akin to a fun farmer's market...with ready-to-eat items. Florida grows the best produce in the USA! Why not a citrus stand? (there's a great one just up on route 192.) The Orlando Whole Foods has a fresh juice bar that is excellent.

Deep in FL, there are a host of roadside stands offering all kinds of tropical fruits...and deep FL is almost the only place in the USA to find them. Among the fruits we enjoyed was the best mango I've ever had! We also has some insanely good guacamole, made with FL avocado!

I just can't imagine I'm alone in craving QUALITY healthy foods!

I'm horrified when I see WDW offering items like danish and candy bars that are battered and fried.

I agree with you to some extent, but I do think they are doing better with the "check" meals for kids that always come with carrots and gapes

And there are definitely more stands with healthy options - such as Prince Eric Village Market in Fantasyland that offers fruit and hummus, etc.

I know we have gotten fruit and veggies a lot at stands like that . Plus Aloha Island has the pineapple spears.

So they could to better, but there are options there if you look for them

 

[disneysteve]

It bugs me to no end how few fresh fruits and veggies are offered at WDW.

Disney CS is phenomenally better than it has ever been before and it blows away the offerings in other amusement parks, sports arenas, etc. Do they still serve junk food? Of course. But they also serve a lot of novel, tasty, and reasonably healthy stuff. Just the simple fact that you can now get something with your sandwich other than fries was a huge change. I always pick grapes or apple slices or carrots. The kids meals have a nice variety of choices. For a snack, I'll often grab hummus rather than something junky. There are so many good choices that didn't exist 10+ years ago.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

I think it would be awful to not be able to book ADRs in advance. And I think Disney would lose a ton of money--what guest in their right mind would leave the Magic Kingdom and head to the Poly in the hopes of getting in to the Kona Cafe or 'Ohana?

Oh we would!

That is EXACTLY how we used to tour WDW! Whenever the crowds started to get annoying, we'd simply hop over to one of the monorail resorts for a break and a snack. If we could get seat at Kona, or the bar area, Disney would win. If not, we'd settle for the QS.

But truly, I think ADR's are one of the biggest lies WDW peddles.

Despite having an ADR, we recently waited 90 minutes from podium to having food! We were not told of the wait when we booked, when we arrived, or when we ordered that it would be SO bad. Worse, we were completely STUCK. If we'd walked away, we'd have been charged a no-show fee!

I highly prefer being informed when I arrive at the podium how long we'll have to wait and having it be my choice to wait or walk away. Then I am in control.

I dislike having to go eat even though we are not hungry. I dislike having to rush across WDW for ADRs. I get unhappy if I can't get to my ADR because of: slow buses, monorail is down, boats are down due to fog/lightning, or we can't park our car.

 

[Vernie822]

Yesterday was our 180 day point. We had already discussed what our must do spots were, and what days we prefer. Then we had a great evening with the tv off just planning. I know that planning isn't for everyone, but this was our little Disney fix. It was a nice change and kept the magic alive.

We love doing this. Over and over again. We make our ADR's then change them all the time. We'll see something that looks good, or a new menu item, and switch our ADR to a different restaurant. It's part of the fun!!

 

[disneysteve]

It's part of the fun

I don't think you're using that word right.

 

[JimmyV]

A lot of things have changed - not just attendance. People's palates have gotten more sophisticated. People don't eat they way they ate 20 years ago. The number of international guests is far higher. And the internet happened. Sites like this one with photos and menus and dining reviews at our fingertips lead people to go to places that they might not otherwise have even known existed. And let's not forget about the dining plans. That's probably one of the biggest drivers of guests to the TS restaurants. People want to get their money's worth.

I agree with all of that, (though I am not at all certain how the influx of international guests alters the dining dynamic). Everything you posted is true, and to my way of thinking, puts downward pressure on the ADR/Dining system far more than attendance creep. Dining plans (and free dining), coupled with internet usage and instant availability to reviews/menus are having a far greater impact than the increase in attendance. Back in the day, getting Priority Seating for breakfast in the Castle was way, way, way harder than scoring even the most difficult-to-come-by ADR today. It's not even close. So while the things that you have mentioned are definitely adding to the dining crunch, other factors, such as internet booking, are relaxing some of that pressure.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

Disney CS is phenomenally better than it has ever been before and it blows away the offerings in other amusement parks, sports arenas, etc. Do they still serve junk food? Of course. But they also serve a lot of novel, tasty, and reasonably healthy stuff. Just the simple fact that you can now get something with your sandwich other than fries was a huge change. I always pick grapes or apple slices or carrots. The kids meals have a nice variety of choices. For a snack, I'll often grab hummus rather than something junky. There are so many good choices that didn't exist 10+ years ago.

I sorely disagree. Before the recession food quality was WAY better!

I've been to WDW with a vegetarian for a number of years. In the low 2000's finding healthy options was easy. CSR's Pepper Market had a whole station devoted to fresh fruit/fresh veggies! Gone! QS property-wide sold fresh strawberries. Gone! Veggie bar at Pecos Bills is gone! No more mushrooms! One of the few places in all of WDW that served mushrooms (except paying extra at high end steak places).

Here's my challenge find entrees that don't come with:
1. Fried
2. bacon and other cuts of fatty pork (like lardons)
3. Cheese and cream/butter/mayo/greasy sauces and similar

Here's what I get when sampling:
The Wave: 1 of 9 dinner entrees. (vegetarian soup)
Pepper Market: 2 salads (if no dressing), 1pasta (if no alfredo) of 24 options.
Rainforest: 2 of 34 (only IF you pick the healthy side and avoid fries/mashed) And I'm giving the benefit of the doubt on both: a meatless burger and pot roast. The sauce of pot roast might be full fat gravy.
Sci-Fi Dine-In - 0 of 11! All the sandwiches smothered in bacon and/or melted cheese!

ABC: 2 (one is salad- if no dressing) of 7 entrees
Catalina Eddies: 0 of 4 (unless you get Caesar salad w/out dressing)
Fairfaxe - 1 0f 5 (and that's ignoring the mayo on the coleslaw of the chicken, and heavy sugar of baked beans)
electric Umbrella - 0 of 7
Liberty Inn - 1 of 10 (vegetarian "chick'n, though I can't tell if it comes with fries, all other burgers do.)
Boulangerie- 1 of 14 (giving benefit of the doubt to Nicoise Salad, which probably comes dressed +mayo on the tuna)
Shutters - 0 of 10 entrees (ALL have cheese, gravy, cream, fried!)
Cap't Cook's: Ooh 3 of 17! ( coconut meatballs?, pho soup, fish tacos covered with slaw that probably has mayo)


In most cases, what I'm calling the healthy option - actually violate my 3 rules because they come with mayo coated coleslaw or you really have to specify that want no dressing, and to avoid the default of French fries as your side.

It is scary to me, the percentage of entrees that come with cheese. It is on practically everything! Every burger, every sandwich, every salad.

Universal is slightly better. This past trip I was absolutely thrilled to find the corned beef boil platter. Corned beef is just about the least healthy protein, but at least the veggies arrived blessedly plain!