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Disney's $1 billion dollar bet on magical wristband - Wired

My point is - unless I missed something BIG - there is absolutely NO way to tie any spending to the band.

They are selling existing product on/ with them. Any "numbers" are purely supposition...until they have some kind of interactive feedback system that you can make the case wouldn't have been successful in selling the product without the band and the chips...

As far as "going to jail for lying"...

Lol...everything ever said by CMB and his posse about the bands has been 100% ambiguous and without substance. It's all PR/spin.

You can't go to jail for lying about something that has no shape/ form. You're right/wrong 100% of the time!
It should be certainly within reason to figure it out. Simply take out price increases, and then adjust for inflation. Using Disneyland as a goal post you can determine the rest of the country's pulse by looking at how much their customer spending has risen over the same time period. If you see faster growth then both Disneyland and the price adjustments you can infer that WDW has been outgrowing competitors. Also keep in mind that My Magic did a phased roll out. Disney could also use that data as a basis for comparison. How much customer spending rose after switching over to My Magic. Also you could determine how many transactions a typical guest had before v. after Magic Bands. If any increase had taken place you could track a correlation. Then there's also the average transaction cost that could be used as a baseline. There's so many ways to make a comparison that they could at the least have a rudimentary guess.

And make a guess they did. If they didn't have reasonable data to back their assertion on Shanghai that is still not following proper protocol. There's a reason they're careful in those calls. Because if they screw up, SEC will be all too happy to come in
 
My point is - unless I missed something BIG - there is absolutely NO way to tie any spending to the band.

Just for argument sake, I will volunteer an embarrassing example of my poor planning and / or use of the MB which directly lead to increased spending by me and increased revenue for the park. As a means of controlling excess spending on our trips, we would budget how much money we wanted to spend on meals, souvenirs, snacks, etc... and we would purchase gift cards for the budgeted amount and pass the gift cards out to each member of the family. It was a good way to teach the kids how to prioritize the things they wanted and how to budget their money while on vacation because once their gift card was gone they were done with their shopping. When MB's came along we still bought the gift cards but we would leave them locked away in our room because we just liked the freedom MB's gave us to not carry anything in our pockets and there was no chance of the kids (or dad) losing their gift card (which may have happened once or twice). We would use the gift cards at the end of the trip to pay our balance upon checking out. As we found out, the MB made it way too easy to make purchases without the receipts telling us the balance on the gift card each time. We were left trying to keep track in our heads who spent how much on what and it was just too much trouble to check with the front desk each night to ask for an itemized bill for each day. Naturally, at the end of our trip we had over spent our gift card "budget" by way too much. The dam suits beat me and foiled my plan with their MB's ): Granted, I am only one person and a single tragic tale. I am surely going to make adjustments for our next trip; but, I like to take solace in the fact that I surely couldn't be the only person to be bamboozled by these fancy new contraptions. I doubt Iger would like to use my laziness and ignorance as a shining example of how MB's have directly increased revenue; but, in this one isolated instance the MB sucked more money out of me than I wanted.
 
Adjusted for inflation, the $48 gate price in 2001 should have risen to $63.34 - meaning that ticket prices are rising at 3x the rate of inflation for the US economy as a whole. Tell me why that's OK while they have reduced the number of attractions in the four parks over that same time?

It's not ok, it just IS! ALL luxuries/entertainment have gotten exponentially more expensive in the past thirty years. Remember when concerts used to cost $16? ...and all the tickets were the same price? Barbra Streisand decided that she could charge more for tickets a few years ago, then everyone else followed suit. Thanks to this, you can't get a decent concert seat for less than $90 today - and that's for 2 1/2 hours entertainment.

A pair of men's slacks cost a MAD $240 now. A necktie approaches the same price. I'm talking about nice clothes here - not Dockers. The $39 Raybans I used to just buy again when I lost them cost $125 now. Twenty years ago I could afford nice clothes. I can't anymore - unless it's a splurge.

Look around you folks. Disney is just doing what the whole entertainment/lifestyle business is doing. I'm just glad that they still deliver their product better than anyone else.
 
Usually...I'm the guy who advocates a "black and white" approach to all things DIS.

Most things...not all...can be looked at with common sense and an opinion can be formed you can stand on...

But...I'm thoroughly in the grey on this one...

Can it be assumed that Disney - experts at demographic and market research - are bringing in profits (perhaps significant ones), on the band usage?
Of course...

Is there any way for them...or us...to show that with a level if certainty? Hell no. And as I've said repeatedly...it's gonna be hard to ever do that. They are still selling the same products...and they had the Point of sale keys for 15+ years before the bands. That gap cannot be jumped/ bridged.

All this talk of "I wouldn't have bought without the band" anecdotes and "Iger can't lie or he'll go to Leavenworth" (again...they've said 100% nothing...like talk of projections) is just silly.

You know what the bands really are? Infrastructure that will make out of pocket spending, staff reductions, and personalized upsells possible. Which is exactly what we talked about here 3 years ago. Nothing has changed. I think the profits have been fairly small off the bands in reality...which means they have to spin. If you read the quotes...it's exactly that. 100% spin.

But, these current clowns just can't come out and say that - that it's a longterm investment and doesn't directly bear fruit...because the fruit tree has to grow.
But they only care about their own stock options... So they BS the street - about things that can neither be proven or disproven.
It's bad management...but they will suffer no consequence.

Did somebody say that Iger would be in hot water if he promised a Star Wars
Ride by a date and didnt deliver?
They do that constantly...Hyperion wharf
Was supposed to deliver
Retail sales...pure profit. Nobody blinked. Haunted mansion in Disneyland opened 12 years late and costed a fortune. Test track 4 years late and cost the GDP of a mid sized country...
We're grasping at straws in a mirage here.
 


Usually...I'm the guy who advocates a "black and white" approach to all things DIS.

Most things...not all...can be looked at with common sense and an opinion can be formed you can stand on...

But...I'm thoroughly in the grey on this one...

Can it be assumed that Disney - experts at demographic and market research - are bringing in profits (perhaps significant ones), on the band usage?
Of course...

Is there any way for them...or us...to show that with a level if certainty? Hell no. And as I've said repeatedly...it's gonna be hard to ever do that. They are still selling the same products...and they had the Point of sale keys for 15+ years before the bands. That gap cannot be jumped/ bridged.

All this talk of "I wouldn't have bought without the band" anecdotes and "Iger can't lie or he'll go to Leavenworth" (again...they've said 100% nothing...like talk of projections) is just silly.

You know what the bands really are? Infrastructure that will make out of pocket spending, staff reductions, and personalized upsells possible. Which is exactly what we talked about here 3 years ago. Nothing has changed. I think the profits have been fairly small off the bands in reality...which means they have to spin. If you read the quotes...it's exactly that. 100% spin.

But, these current clowns just can't come out and say that - that it's a longterm investment and doesn't directly bear fruit...because the fruit tree has to grow.
But they only care about their own stock options... So they BS the street - about things that can neither be proven or disproven.
It's bad management...but they will suffer no consequence.

Did somebody say that Iger would be in hot water if he promised a Star Wars
Ride by a date and didnt deliver?
They do that constantly...Hyperion wharf
Was supposed to deliver
Retail sales...pure profit. Nobody blinked. Haunted mansion in Disneyland opened 12 years late and costed a fortune. Test track 4 years late and cost the GDP of a mid sized country...
We're grasping at straws in a mirage here.

You simply could not be more wrong. You apparently don't work in or understand this type of research. Disney has specific details on everyone who has used a credit card, band and Key to the World card in the last number of years. VERY specific data. The kind that research firms drool over. They know down to the INDIVIDUAL the demographic information and all spending habits down to day, time, and location. It takes a bit of programming, but we are talking about Disney and this is their main business. You put all this information in a database, analyze spending habits and then adjust for variables. Then you do testing to evaluate the accuracy of your evaluations. Then you do statistical analysis to evaluate your error rates in various areas. Given the information we KNOW Disney has, it is not even a difficult leap to know how they could determine an increase attributable to the bands. Can they give you an exact dollar amount? Of course not. Such research is about reasonable ranges. They cannot say bands made them $12.7 million last year, but they could say (and these numbers are just out of thin air for example) the bands made them somewhere between 5 and 10 million based on research. The research staff would also give them percentage of accuracy and ranges along with percentage range error rates associated with each individual parameter.

The average person does not understand the power and accuracy of statistical analysis of data. I have been involved in this at my job for the last 13 years. I am NOT an expert, but I have learned enough to understand how much Disney knows. Believe me they know. And as you say, we already know too.

It is clear from people even on this board where folks are more negative than the average Disney fan that MB result in more spending, FP+ is popular, and MM+ is a success. As much as some HATE to admit Disney did something right, ground breaking, and important.
 
To say they could be sued or the SEC would be after them is silly. Beyond silly. Revenue is up. So, what shareholder or Fed cares? Unless the did something illegal to get the higher number and that's not what we're talking about here. They could have said it was caused by economic indicators, better weather, higher spend due to higher guest confidence, NexGen, Santa Claus, whatever It's a few percentage points. The analysts know the game

This is a circular argument with no way of quantifying the Staggs/Iger/Rasulo's argument - until they do.

And that's the main point to take away from all of this - they could but they didn't.

So, what we can do is put it in context:

We're only talking about a few percentage points (3.6%) for one fiscal quarter compared to the previous year's: Attendance up 7%, Revenue up 10.6% in the last announcement so....

If we find out that tourism spending nationally or in Fla is up 3-4% for this year (and it will be up due to eco and confidence, guaranteed) Hmmm what caused the gain? But you see, we and they don't know that figure yet, so they can say anything.

Within that 3.6% we also need to take into account all of the other things they stated as causes for that increase: higher ticket prices (5-20% across the board depending on type) and food bev price increases. What MM+ could contribute is now getting even smaller

They've stated that they're still not close to full adoption of MM+/MB's (last I heard them state was still in the 50% range), so how much could it really impact?

Comcast reported Theme Park Rev up 29.9%, and cash flow up 37.6% for their last Q increasing pressure on Disney to report something/anything they are proactively doing is causing rev to increase

They've tossed another 800 mil into the Shanghai Project and need to show confidence that they can do that because they are making more money elsewhere in P&R above basic eco trends

And maybe the biggest thing to take from it? - None of those follow-on, one-on-one analyst q&a's where they specifically point out how MM+ increased spending. Where they say things like "Taking out what we estimate as an x% increase due to higher consumer confidence we saw an additional y% of spending due to MM+ and a z% increase in occupancy due to MM+.
You see, at some point next year after the 10K they are going to need to do that. They made a 1.5 - 2 bil investment in MM+. Down the road, they're going to have to quantify it's positive impact to rev and profit to the analysts and shareholders. But the analysts, BoD and big shareholders also know it's a marathon, not a sprint. Until they can show it FY to FY and not just the sprint of Q to Q, the data, enough data, isn't there.

Nobody's going to call them on their statement for one quarter, it would be silly. Rev is still increasing within decent parameters. Next Dec/Jan, with more comparable data from Disney, competitors, the economy, etc., will give a better picture. If MM+ adoption is below 75%, or the attrib of rev increase is small single digits, that's a prob against that size of investment....
 
This is what I find particularly interesting.
Disney
We're only talking about a few percentage points (3.6%) for one fiscal quarter compared to the previous year's: Attendance up 7%, Revenue up 10.6% in the last announcement so....
Universal
Comcast reported Theme Park Rev up 29.9%, and cash flow up 37.6% for their last Q increasing pressure on Disney to report something/anything they are proactively doing is causing rev to increase

Uh, maybe building new attractions is a better idea than investing in MDE?
 


Usually...I'm the guy who advocates a "black and white" approach to all things DIS.

Most things...not all...can be looked at with common sense and an opinion can be formed you can stand on...

But...I'm thoroughly in the grey on this one...

Can it be assumed that Disney - experts at demographic and market research - are bringing in profits (perhaps significant ones), on the band usage?
Of course...

Is there any way for them...or us...to show that with a level if certainty? Hell no. And as I've said repeatedly...it's gonna be hard to ever do that. They are still selling the same products...and they had the Point of sale keys for 15+ years before the bands. That gap cannot be jumped/ bridged.

All this talk of "I wouldn't have bought without the band" anecdotes and "Iger can't lie or he'll go to Leavenworth" (again...they've said 100% nothing...like talk of projections) is just silly.

You know what the bands really are? Infrastructure that will make out of pocket spending, staff reductions, and personalized upsells possible. Which is exactly what we talked about here 3 years ago. Nothing has changed. I think the profits have been fairly small off the bands in reality...which means they have to spin. If you read the quotes...it's exactly that. 100% spin.

But, these current clowns just can't come out and say that - that it's a longterm investment and doesn't directly bear fruit...because the fruit tree has to grow.
But they only care about their own stock options... So they BS the street - about things that can neither be proven or disproven.
It's bad management...but they will suffer no consequence.

Did somebody say that Iger would be in hot water if he promised a Star Wars
Ride by a date and didnt deliver?
They do that constantly...Hyperion wharf
Was supposed to deliver
Retail sales...pure profit. Nobody blinked. Haunted mansion in Disneyland opened 12 years late and costed a fortune. Test track 4 years late and cost the GDP of a mid sized country...
We're grasping at straws in a mirage here.
If there was no positive sales growth then why didn't they say it would simply streamline operations? Removing staff would have a similar effect on profit. I don't think anyone would get ticked if they said this was purely an operations thing. Not at all. They opened this can of worms themselves.

If Inside an earnings call without disclaimers he promised specific things he could be in trouble.
 
You simply could not be more wrong. You apparently don't work in or understand this type of research. Disney has specific details on everyone who has used a credit card, band and Key to the World card in the last number of years. VERY specific data. The kind that research firms drool over. They know down to the INDIVIDUAL the demographic information and all spending habits down to day, time, and location. It takes a bit of programming, but we are talking about Disney and this is their main business. You put all this information in a database, analyze spending habits and then adjust for variables. Then you do testing to evaluate the accuracy of your evaluations. Then you do statistical analysis to evaluate your error rates in various areas. Given the information we KNOW Disney has, it is not even a difficult leap to know how they could determine an increase attributable to the bands. Can they give you an exact dollar amount? Of course not. Such research is about reasonable ranges. They cannot say bands made them $12.7 million last year, but they could say (and these numbers are just out of thin air for example) the bands made them somewhere between 5 and 10 million based on research. The research staff would also give them percentage of accuracy and ranges along with percentage range error rates associated with each individual parameter.

The average person does not understand the power and accuracy of statistical analysis of data. I have been involved in this at my job for the last 13 years. I am NOT an expert, but I have learned enough to understand how much Disney knows. Believe me they know. And as you say, we already know too.

It is clear from people even on this board where folks are more negative than the average Disney fan that MB result in more spending, FP+ is popular, and MM+ is a success. As much as some HATE to admit Disney did something right, ground breaking, and important.

And you simply don't understand how Disney - specifically wdw - works. So whatever you're selling with your data...it is not discretionary vacation spending - the most frivolous of frivolity that a large percentage of the population engages in.

Disney knows that as well as anyone because they have used research to bear results so effectively.

Not this time. There is simply no statistical realities to tie into the bands. So they quote raw number and draw "reasonable" conclusions. That is ok. But the truth behind the bands would be impossible to ascertain...even for Disney.

Travel dollars are the last to be spent in bad times, some of the first to be allocated in good times, and bloats in perceived economic "good times"...

And that is where we are with the bands. In an era of drunken largesse.

Even Disney cannot fundamentally control that.

Again...there is no way to directly attribute sales to bands - on a scale of statistical significance - as it currently stands. Mainly because you can't isolate the per guest spending from other legitimate causes.

Unless...again...I'm missing something huge.

And I ask...please...no "but,
But, in my job building frack
Drill bits..."

I got it...different strokes for different folks
 
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Hey maybe the Frozen ride in EPCOT will be a 4th FP+ for deluxe only. The rest are SB. Any leftover can be purchased on the app for $10 EA (or a price set by a combination of demand).

And the 2 Pandora attractions as well, and the new Soarin screen, and the new TSM track.

All new expansion could be "tied to/paid for" by FP+ if they would choose to do it.

US does FOTL with Deluxe and/or purchase.
 
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Again...there is no way to directly attribute sales to bands - on a scale of statistical significance - as it currently stands. Mainly because you can't isolate the per guest spending from other legitimate causes
But nothing specific was said. Disney could be taken to court and the only thing anyone could prove is that They implied MB's were responsible for increased sales. Big difference. But you know what? They did a really good job of spinning the PR since obviously some people took what was said and turned it, in their own minds, into a statement of fact.
 
If there was no positive sales growth then why didn't they say it would simply streamline operations? Removing staff would have a similar effect on profit. I don't think anyone would get ticked if they said this was purely an operations thing. Not at all. They opened this can of worms themselves.

If Inside an earnings call without disclaimers he promised specific things he could be in trouble.

Except that Iger never makes any promises that can be tied back to him other than profits and revenues...which is pretty easy to deliver when you crank the screws on all prices...

Why wouldn't they just come out and say their goal is to streamline costs and automate their themeparks... Based on wishes, dreams, and magic and built with magic mortar?

Hmmm...I can't figure out why the WALT DISNEY COMPANY would be averse to admit that...

I always thought cost savings/squeezing dimes from nickels was at least as big a part of the bands as direct sales/revenue...
Nothing had swayed that for me.

But again...they can say whatever they want...because it exists in a vacuum devoid of data that can be locked down
 
But nothing specific was said. Disney could be taken to court and the only thing anyone could prove is that They implied MB's were responsible for increased sales. Big difference. But you know what? They did a really good job of spinning the PR since obviously some people took what was said and turned it, in their own minds, into a statement of fact.

And they are doing exactly what I often get accused of (usually falsely)...believing their own assumptions
 
This is what I find particularly interesting.
Disney

Universal


Uh, maybe building new attractions is a better idea than investing in MDE?
Actually grow your business Oooorganically...??!! What is this concept of which you speak....?

Seriously, though. It's very common for all us to lose sight of the incredibly small amount of time this Exec Team spends even thinking about a bunch of swampy acres in FLA. If it's a meeting at 9:00-9:45am every 2nd Tuesday of the month, I'd be surprised.

Nobody has to believe me on that. They can check themselves. Just listen to any DIS Quarterly Fin update, shareholders call, etc. Heck, pick a 10K and see how much is devoted to (and broken down to) just Domestic P&R. I warn you, do it when early in the morning, when the Sun is shining, and when you're in a great mood - because it's very sobering. Single digit percentages (or less)

When they do spend real time and brain power on P&R, it's Shanghai and Paris predominantly since both impact their legacy - their stakes in the ground as far as P&R worldwide.

Let's face it: these are not Theme Park guys. They didn't grow up in it, they don't necessarily like it, they tolerate it. They're Media/money guys. In other words, Not the guys Walt would have sat around with building miniatures of the future DL over a highball or 2 in the '50s

That's why they can and will talk about channels, programming, distro verticals, upcoming movies, acquisitions, etc., until the cows come home. They see domestic P&R like the cash and bond position of a portfolio.

We're the step kids from the 4th marriage....
 
Actually grow your business Oooorganically...??!! What is this concept of which you speak....?

Seriously, though. It's very common for all us to lose sight of the incredibly small amount of time this Exec Team spends even thinking about a bunch of swampy acres in FLA. If it's a meeting at 9:00-9:45am every 2nd Tuesday of the month, I'd be surprised.

Nobody has to believe me on that. They can check themselves. Just listen to any DIS Quarterly Fin update, shareholders call, etc. Heck, pick a 10K and see how much is devoted to (and broken down to) just Domestic P&R. I warn you, do it when early in the morning, when the Sun is shining, and when you're in a great mood - because it's very sobering. Single digit percentages (or less)

When they do spend real time and brain power on P&R, it's Shanghai and Paris predominantly since both impact their legacy - their stakes in the ground as far as P&R worldwide.

Let's face it: these are not Theme Park guys. They didn't grow up in it, they don't necessarily like it, they tolerate it. They're Media/money guys. In other words, Not the guys Walt would have sat around with building miniatures of the future DL over a highball or 2 in the '50s

That's why they can and will talk about channels, programming, distro verticals, upcoming movies, acquisitions, etc., until the cows come home. They see domestic P&R like the cash and bond position of a portfolio.

We're the step kids from the 4th marriage....
I sometimes believe the parks would be better off under new ownership. in a company that understood theme parks and appreciated the Disney brand of theme parks prior to the Iger administration.
 
The parks would be better off private...and owned by a group of people with personalities...

These guys have none...and they're drunk off the ticker
Tape
 
Except that Iger never makes any promises that can be tied back to him other than profits and revenues...which is pretty easy to deliver when you crank the screws on all prices...

Why wouldn't they just come out and say their goal is to streamline costs and automate their themeparks... Based on wishes, dreams, and magic and built with magic mortar?

Hmmm...I can't figure out why the WALT DISNEY COMPANY would be averse to admit that...

I always thought cost savings/squeezing dimes from nickels was at least as big a part of the bands as direct sales/revenue...
Nothing had swayed that for me.

But again...they can say whatever they want...because it exists in a vacuum devoid of data that can be locked down
The last time I checked analysts didn't seem to care too much about "Disney Magic." If Iger had said flat out they never expected this to be a revenue generating project, but operations efficiency thing analysts would have been just fine. They've fanned the flames themselves, and have made bold predictions that need some proof in order to be stated.
 
I sometimes believe the parks would be better off under new ownership. in a company that understood theme parks and appreciated the Disney brand of theme parks prior to the Iger administration.
Yeah, because Iger hasn't been doing enough to maximize profits.
 
Yeah, because Iger hasn't been doing enough to maximize profits.
Well of course he has, that's more money for him, but what about the consumer they want new stuff as well. Dessert parties and hard ticket events can only go so far.
 

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