New Monorail?

[aleksandr]

There is actually 2 projects. The 1first was high speed train with the government involved and that plan is dead.

The 2nd is from Miami to Orlando/MCO., via PC. It is a private group. The plans are layed out and the last I read they are in the permit and right of ways stage.

I have not seen lately, but then again I have not looked.

AKK

That plan, AFAIK, does not include any stops at Disney.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

That plan, AFAIK, does not include any stops at Disney.

I don't believe any of the high speed rail projects included stops at WDW.

AKK

 

[Miked0292]

I could possibly see Disney doing this , only possibly because 1. buses run diesel and if your a truck driver or notice the price of diesel recent it has been near $4.00 a gallon, and well these buses do not get the best MPG maybe 11-15 A gallon, so roughfully 5-7 gallons of fuel per round trip starting at the airport and back, then you have to pay the drivers on top of that so for that roughfully 2 hour trip the driver is gone that 1 bus alone costs $50-$60 per trip and they are only moving about what 30-40 people per trip at max sometimes less very less, I have personally been on a buses with 10 people on it , now a monorail system or sometime of system might actually pull ahead in the long run because it can simply keep on running, the systems to run such a large system like this is kinda out there but maybe Disney is designing something where they can run it so it takes people to the correct resorts, because if you have 1 or 2 drop points its going to make no sence to then put these people on a bus and ship them all over the resort with luggage

 

[Networth]

Never going to happen. Besides the cost alone the amount of zoning, organize, land usage regulations and so on between the city of Orlando, the airport, the counties, state etc. Much better odds of an expansion of the monorail system from Epcot station to other areas inside the "world". That was the original plan, Epcot was supposed to be a hub just like the TTC. If you look at some old records.

 

[Son of Gadsden]

I don't think cost alone is the issue. Word is they spent $1 billion on the whole MyMagic+ system. That would translate to 1,000 milies worth of monorail track at the price you mentioned. If they had really, really wanted to, they could have built more tracks around WDW as was originally planned, and then some.

The biggest difference between those two is that unlike MyMagic+, the monorails generate no income but still have their expenditures.

It doesn't work like that. The cost of rides, resorts, tickets, and transportation don't all come from the same place. The pool MyMagic plus comes from is separate from what monorails would come from. A company a big as Disney is going to have different budgets for different things, and while it could be argued that research and development could be an area they both fit in...past the development stage, that ends.

And I wouldn't say monorails generate no income. In fact, I would say the both of them, MyMagic+ and monorails are in the same boat there. Neither directly draw income, but they both draw in more park traffic, and are expected to pay for themselves over the long term. A monorail would decrease transportation expenses for Disney, likely increase resort costs (if it connected to any more resorts), and make not only a Disney trip more attractive, but make staying at any resorts it now connects to more attractive.

I could be wrong on the part of resort costs, though. I know someone said something about that in another post. I can't remember if they said it's been confirmed that the resorts DO work in the monorail cost or they don't.

Regardless, make no mistake, a monorail would eventually pay for itself. As someone who manages a lot of trucks on the road every day for a business, it's a real problem that we're all going to face soon. When, not if, gas goes up to $4+ again, I don't know what's going to happen. This could be Disney trying to find a way to avoid that issue.

Personally, I don't think the monorail rumor has much substance. Not offense to the bus driver, but he's just a bus driver, and probably doesn't know much more than anyone else in the thread. As far ahead of its time as the monorail was when created, there is new technology nowadays, as already mentioned here, that I would think they would be more likely to go for.

 

[chartle]

I don't believe any of the high speed rail projects included stops at WDW.

AKK

I've only read the wikipedia article not the refferences it sites but wdw was in the plans depending on the route.

 

[drstrangelove]

So here's a fun - albeit unlikely one - for you.

While at Disney last week, we were the only ones on the bus to Downtown Disney (from Wilderness Lodge - so this was an official Disney bus and a cast member driver) and ended up chatting with the bus driver. In a series of things he was listing about new and upcoming things at Disney (the new Land and Sea cruise package, the new Disney Springs, etc), he casually mentions that Disney already has the property bought and plans made for a direct monorail between the Orlando airport and WDW.

Whaaaaaaat.

We've all heard that the Monorail will likely never be expanded due to cost-effectiveness, and given that Orlando airport is 20+ miles away, that sounds like crazy talk. So I kinda dismissed it at the time.

But I DID note that in the podcast the other week, the news about the airport expansion mentioned a new "peoplemover". Perhaps they are building a monorail within the airport? Also, how GREAT would it be if they really did build a monorail from the airport to the TTC?!

(What I really want is for them to connect the monorail to the Wilderness Lodge. IT'S RIGHT THERE, PEOPLE. IT WOULD COST LIKE FIVE DOLLARS. *rant*)

If it were going to be built, it more likely be a Light Rail, which cities all over the world are building to bring people from airports to transit hubs. Portland Oregon sort of lead the charge on this and it has proved hugely successful.

 

[seashoreCM]

The Orlando to Tampa high speed rail project (now dead) was a public project with a major private partner. The latter was Disney. One of Disney's stipulations was that the trains run nonstop between MCO and WDW. The state wanted at least one stop in between, in the Idrive area.

Partly because of that impasse, the project died.

Had such a project been completed, "Magical Express" would probably still have been created, but running between the WDW stop (in the I-4/192 interchange vicinity) and the resorts.

Trains would have run probably no more often then once every 30 minutes with 1 hour and even 2 hour headways during midday and evening hours. Plus the wait approximating today's DME waits connecting at the WDW station. We might note that waiting more than 45 minutes for the DME bus to ffill up is an aberration.

I doubt that pod or RUF or PRT fixed-guideway transit systems will progress beyond the novelty stage. Their problem is capacity. One track can carry only so many vehicles and each station can load only so many vehicles, and with fewer than 15 passengers per vehicle the total number of passengers per hour per track (lane) is very limited.

By the way, why so much interest in new monorail lines when Disney can't keep the monorails it has running reliably?

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

If it were going to be built, it more likely be a Light Rail, which cities all over the world are building to bring people from airports to transit hubs. Portland Oregon sort of lead the charge on this and it has proved hugely successful.

This would be much more likely then a extended Monorail. They use trolley type cars or the latest is *pods*, computerized pods, with 4 to about 20 guests capacity.

It would be interesting!

AKK

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The Orlando to Tampa high speed rail project (now dead) was a public project with a major private partner. The latter was Disney. One of Disney's stipulations was that the trains run nonstop between MCO and WDW. The state wanted at least one stop in between, in the Idrive area.

Partly because of that impasse, the project died.

Had such a project been completed, "Magical Express" would probably still have been created, but running between the WDW stop (in the I-4/192 interchange vicinity) and the resorts.

Trains would have run probably no more often then once every 30 minutes with 1 hour and even 2 hour headways during midday and evening hours. Plus the wait approximating today's DME waits connecting at the WDW station. We might note that waiting more than 45 minutes for the DME bus to ffill up is an aberration.

I doubt that pod or RUF or PRT fixed-guideway transit systems will progress beyond the novelty stage. Their problem is capacity. One track can carry only so many vehicles and each station can load only so many vehicles, and with fewer than 15 passengers per vehicle the total number of passengers per hour per track (lane) is very limited.

By the way, why so much interest in new monorail lines when Disney can't keep the monorails it has running reliably?

This is the whole story

 

[lockedoutlogic]

And to add...

The majority of Disney buses do and have run for a decade on compressed natural gas... Not diesel.

They typically aren't waiting in line next to the Hess station for a fillup

 

[lockedoutlogic]

There is actually 2 projects. The 1first was high speed train with the government involved and that plan is dead.

The 2nd is from Miami to Orlando/MCO., via PC. It is a private group. The plans are layed out and the last I read they are in the permit and right of ways stage.

I have not seen lately, but then again I have not looked.

AKK

I can only imagine what a logistical nightmare that would be for a private group... Unless they could invoke eminent domain. Even thought Florida is still "sparten" in development, seems like it would be tough to do.

And then once the train gets to MCO? Are they gonna hook up to wdw (which they would have to For viability) and get Disney to go along without near total control? That ain't happening.

And private enterprises typically look to make money...which means now you would be looking to collect fees from passengers when they are used to Disney's low investment, free to customer magical express service...

Lots of problems with this.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

The Orlando to Tampa high speed rail project (now dead) was a public project with a major private partner. The latter was Disney. One of Disney's stipulations was that the trains run nonstop between MCO and WDW. The state wanted at least one stop in between, in the Idrive area.

Partly because of that impasse, the project died.

Had such a project been completed, "Magical Express" would probably still have been created, but running between the WDW stop (in the I-4/192 interchange vicinity) and the resorts.

Trains would have run probably no more often then once every 30 minutes with 1 hour and even 2 hour headways during midday and evening hours. Plus the wait approximating today's DME waits connecting at the WDW station. We might note that waiting more than 45 minutes for the DME bus to ffill up is an aberration.

I doubt that pod or RUF or PRT fixed-guideway transit systems will progress beyond the novelty stage. Their problem is capacity. One track can carry only so many vehicles and each station can load only so many vehicles, and with fewer than 15 passengers per vehicle the total number of passengers per hour per track (lane) is very limited.


I disagree, if you look at the new systems they are amazing. Yes with 1 track or bed, some run on tires), the pods would be limited, but the idea is you load the pod (with up to 20 now) and you go on a multiply tracks main line and then as you reach turn offs the pods go to the different destinations. the number of pods and capacity greatly increases.

By the way, why so much interest in new monorail lines when Disney can't keep the monorails it has running reliably?

Last year the great monorail breakdown and *refub year* Disney did a great amount of renewing and maintenance that the Iger bean counters had held back on.
this year the system has been operating much better. they do need to replace the trains though!. That is over due!

AKK

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I can only imagine what a logistical nightmare that would be for a private group... Unless they could invoke eminent domain. Even thought Florida is still "sparten" in development, seems like it would be tough to do.

And then once the train gets to MCO? Are they gonna hook up to wdw (which they would have to For viability) and get Disney to go along without near total control? That ain't happening.

And private enterprises typically look to make money...which means now you would be looking to collect fees from passengers when they are used to Disney's low investment, free to customer magical express service...

Lots of problems with this.

My friend, I totally agree, it seems a rough project to get built and operating and making money!

AKK

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Of course , if they continued to Tampa and up the coast to New Orleans and connect with the Amtrak system, west and north it may be a more lucrative line!


just thinking out loud here.......(that usually gets me in trouble)

AKK

 

[chartle]

And to add...

The majority of Disney buses do and have run for a decade on compressed natural gas... Not diesel.

They typically aren't waiting in line next to the Hess station for a fillup

I work for a shuttle bus company and just yesterday we got another big shipment of propane tanks for our shuttle buses so yes the diesel issue is not that big of a deal.

A bigger deal and something I bring up in every "Why don't they expand the monorail, it would pay for itself?" threads is that now you have all your eggs on on a fixed track, i.e. if a train breaks down the line shuts down and whats the back up, buses.

 

[Miked0292]

And to add...

The majority of Disney buses do and have run for a decade on compressed natural gas... Not diesel.

They typically aren't waiting in line next to the Hess station for a fillup

just to add, DME are NOT Disney buses, they are Mears a 3rd party company, they are not owned by Disney as a DME driver told us once the buses have large enough fuel tanks to last the day so they are not needed to be filled every so often.

Otherwise Disney owned uses are fueled at a central Hess station, i.e. the on bu the MK parking lot, they have a shop of sorts right there , with buses being fueled and washed.

 

[doconeill]

just to add, DME are NOT Disney buses, they are Mears a 3rd party company, they are not owned by Disney as a DME driver told us once the buses have large enough fuel tanks to last the day so they are not needed to be filled every so often.

Otherwise Disney owned uses are fueled at a central Hess station, i.e. the on bu the MK parking lot, they have a shop of sorts right there , with buses being fueled and washed.

Isn't Mears also the contractor to operate the on-site buses too? Mears pretty much owns all transportation that runs on rubber tires in Orlando.

People forget that even though the "designs" for monorail trainsets, etc. exist, it does NOT mean they are cheap to make. Those designs are 25 years old now. It can be difficult to get the electronics, etc. now. And these are not commodity designs - a contractor would need to take on building them, without being able to capitalize on mass production savings - they are one-off productions. Full new trainsets will be expensive, period. They did build Peach, but some of the parts came from the wrecked ends of Purple and Pink, and Disney never said how much they paid for it.

In addition, monorails remain an inflexible system. If there is a problem on a line, the line is pretty much shut down until it is resolved. You can't bypass blocks as there are no switches to do so. Switches for monorails are more cumbersome than normal rail.

If they want to do some sort of rail system, you are more likely to see light rail...commodity trainsets, proven standard technology, etc. If an "automated personal transport" system ever gets off the ground anywhere, you might see it at WDW at some point.

But given they already have the bus infrastructure, which is extremely flexible and easily expandable, I don't think you'll see ANYTHING but buses in at least 20 years, if ever. I think you are more likely to see the monorail go away, frankly. Not that anyone wants that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Isn't Mears also the contractor to operate the on-site buses too? Mears pretty much owns all transportation that runs on rubber tires in Orlando.

People forget that even though the "designs" for monorail trainsets, etc. exist, it does NOT mean they are cheap to make. Those designs are 25 years old now. It can be difficult to get the electronics, etc. now. And these are not commodity designs - a contractor would need to take on building them, without being able to capitalize on mass production savings - they are one-off productions. Full new trainsets will be expensive, period. They did build Peach, but some of the parts came from the wrecked ends of Purple and Pink, and Disney never said how much they paid for it.

In addition, monorails remain an inflexible system. If there is a problem on a line, the line is pretty much shut down until it is resolved. You can't bypass blocks as there are no switches to do so. Switches for monorails are more cumbersome than normal rail.

If they want to do some sort of rail system, you are more likely to see light rail...commodity trainsets, proven standard technology, etc. If an "automated personal transport" system ever gets off the ground anywhere, you might see it at WDW at some point.

But given they already have the bus infrastructure, which is extremely flexible and easily expandable, I don't think you'll see ANYTHING but buses in at least 20 years, if ever. I think you are more likely to see the monorail go away, frankly. Not that anyone wants that.

The on property buses are run by wdw... They have not outsourced everything... Yet.

And bombardier manufactured the trains... I believe. And as I have "heard" from an acquaintance who works there...it would be costly to work on non-standard/ outdated designs...
As the wdw "highway in the sky" is.

They could, as always, probably have a new set of trains gift wrapped and sent to the roundhouse by Christmas... If they wanted. But that affects the stock price and the bonus packages.

 

[doconeill]

And bombardier manufactured the trains... I believe. And as I have "heard" from an acquaintance who works there...it would be costly to work on non-standard/ outdated designs...
As the wdw "highway in the sky" is.

Yes, Bombardier (one of the few trainset manufacturers left in North America) was the original builder of the Mark VI trainsets for what I understand was about $3.5 million a piece - but that was on a contract for 12 trainsets. They also built Peach, but I'll bet that it wasn't for $3.5 million - or even adjusted for the inflation of 25 years, but at a significant premium, unless they re-used A LOT of Pink/Purple. But the undamaged halves were already used to produce Teal.