Children should not have to think like this

[MM27]

Every month we do one lock down drill and two fire drills. Twice a year we do an evacuation drill where we walk the entire student body to another school in the district. This has been going on since 9/11.

I always discuss the lock down drills in the beginning of the year and reassure students that they are to make sure we know what to do IF something were to happen, the same way we do with fire drills. Usually there are a few kids that have lots of questions and I take it as their way of making sure I know what I'm doing and that they can feel safe with me. We cover all the "what-ifs" that you and I may never think of, but are on the minds of children.

 

[Jaxs27]

I don't understand my kid's school lock down drill, they basically put them as sitting ducks. I honestly had never thought about the fighting back tactic, but I really like it. Also running or moving gives a person better odds of getting away.

 

[torinsmom]

I don't like the sitting duck plan either. Anyone who has been in school knows that a green paper slid under the door means kids are in there safe, so I would think the gunman would love to get in there. I don't know that I would use the green paper in a real situation. Once we are all in the bathroom, there is not even a direct path to our courtyard door. I pray I never have to decide what to do with 20 4-6 year olds in a bad situation.

 

[DopeyDame]

I don't like the sitting duck plan either. Anyone who has been in school knows that a green paper slid under the door means kids are in there safe, so I would think the gunman would love to get in there. I don't know that I would use the green paper in a real situation. Once we are all in the bathroom, there is not even a direct path to our courtyard door. I pray I never have to decide what to do with 20 4-6 year olds in a bad situation.

Wait, they have you put a sign under the door? I thought the whole point of the lockdown was to make it completely dark and silent so as not to draw attention. I can't imagine putting out a green piece of paper! That just seems... bizarro.

 

[jaiminee krikit]

It breaks my heart that our children have to deal with this. Last winter, my daughter's school had a lockdown drill one day. In her school, their teacher locks the door, and they hide out of sight. This particular drill, they actually had people outside the school banging on windows and inside the school banging on doors. My daughter was terrified! It's one thing to have them practice, but to actually scare the children, I was not happy at all. I was going to call the school and complain, but I typically wait a few days until I've calmed down about a situation before taking action. That Friday was the tragedy at Sandy Hook. I instead called the school to make sure they were doing more to ensure the safety of our children.

 

[ironpig70]

It breaks my heart that our children have to deal with this. Last winter, my daughter's school had a lockdown drill one day. In her school, their teacher locks the door, and they hide out of sight. This particular drill, they actually had people outside the school banging on windows and inside the school banging on doors. My daughter was terrified! It's one thing to have them practice, but to actually scare the children, I was not happy at all. I was going to call the school and complain, but I typically wait a few days until I've calmed down about a situation before taking action. That Friday was the tragedy at Sandy Hook. I instead called the school to make sure they were doing more to ensure the safety of our children.

I feel bad you child had a bad experience but if you don't practice like a real event then it is pointless.

Its one thing to know its a drill and another for all hell to break loose and see how people react. Personally I would rather scare the hell out of every child and teacher than have some silly orderly drill.

But we cannot do that so we have these feel good drills which IMHO is crap.

The shooter will be a student. A person who knows the school. A person who knows all the halls and secret routes. A person who knows the codes. And who knows the routines of the staff.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You are not bursting my bubble. The thought goes through my mind whenever we practice drills, or I have to answer a student 's question about if they are safe at school or another tragedy happens. I have taken inventory in my class of other steps I could take to protect my students.

But assigning a 12 year old to attack an armed intruder?

You don't assign "A" student this task. You assign the entire front row, and you rotate rows periodically - or, you choose to put your largest, most athletic boys up front permanently. When you're huddled in the back, those students closest to the door should all have hold of a desk/chair. If the gunman makes it past the door, those students rush him collectively. The rest should now all be armed with whatever they can throw effectively. And they should be heaving anything not nailed down in his direction.

 

[NotUrsula]

You don't assign "A" student this task. You assign the entire front row, and you rotate rows periodically - or, you choose to put your largest, most athletic boys up front permanently. When you're huddled in the back, those students closest to the door should all have hold of a desk/chair. If the gunman makes it past the door, those students rush him collectively. The rest should now all be armed with whatever they can throw effectively. And they should be heaving anything not nailed down in his direction.

Which is all well and good if the guy comes in with a small pistol or a rifle slung across his back, but someone carrying a semi-automatic weapon with a high-volume magazine? No one tries to aim those things; they sweep, and a sweeping AK47 at close range is going to go through desks and 12 yo boys like butter. They may knock the guy off his feet, but it is VERY likely that they will die of multiple gunshot wounds in the effort. Also, if the gun goes high and the walls are made of cinderblock, the ricochet is going to be a nightmare.

I think that just like the hardening of aircraft cockpits, the best option is the hardening of classrooms, combined with evacuation arrangements. A key thing (not just for violent situations, but for fire as well), is to make it possible to evacuate directly outside from classrooms, eliminating the need to go through a hallway to get out. Classroom doors should open inward, be steel and have 3 inch deadbolts, and there should be a drop-shutter on any window in the door, so that no one can see into the classroom from the hallway. (Why DO most classroom doors open outward, anyway? )

I think that those things, combined with live security cameras, and a text broadcast directory to be used by law enforcement to teachers to give instructions re: evacuation should be enough.

I've heard the ALICE guy talk about Kip Kinkel, and how he was tackled by fellow students. Yes, that did work, but they KNEW him, and that emboldened them to try to subdue him, seeing as how he had left himself in an exposed position while he stopped to reload -- he wasn't actively shooting at the time, nor could he, unless he switched weapons. I don't think that the analysis is applicable in a situation where someone walks in with a gun in firing position, and especially not in a grade school.

Beyond that, it's just bizarre and wasteful to be thinking in terms of educating all kids in tactics, because the odds of getting shot at in a school by a crazed person are 1 in 2.5 million.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

While I agree your idea of hard doors is best, there has to be a plan in the interim.

On another note, with all due respect, it does not appear you know a great deal about how guns or bullets function, nor how difficult it is to hit moving targets, especially multiple moving targets.

Edit: I do completely agree the odds of such things are quite slim. I believe the fight back tactic is more about sending a message that schools refuse to be "soft targets" anymore.

 

[DVCJones]

While I agree your idea of hard doors is best, there has to be a plan in the interim.

On another note, with all due respect, it does not appear you know a great deal about how guns or bullets function, nor how difficult it is to hit moving targets, especially multiple moving targets.

Edit: I do completely agree the odds of such things are quite slim. I believe the fight back tactic is more about sending a message that schools refuse to be "soft targets" anymore.

Yes!
Yes!
And yes!!!

 

[NotUrsula]

While I agree your idea of hard doors is best, there has to be a plan in the interim.

On another note, with all due respect, it does not appear you know a great deal about how guns or bullets function, nor how difficult it is to hit moving targets, especially multiple moving targets.

Edit: I do completely agree the odds of such things are quite slim. I believe the fight back tactic is more about sending a message that schools refuse to be "soft targets" anymore.

With all due respect, yes, I do. I grew up in a household where eating regularly meant hunting, and my father and brother liked to restore old weapons at home. I first fired a rifle at age 7, with the barrel strapped on a sawhorse so that I could manage the kick. I've also got a master's degree in 20th century military history.

A typical round from an AK-47 is easily capable of piercing 3/8" steel plating at 100m. A typical school desk is made from 20-gauge steel, which is about .035 inches thick. At a range of around 8 feet (which is probably about how far away the "multiple moving targets" would be in your scenario, the desk is not going to present any kind of barrier to that rifle round, assuming that the round even hits the steel, which isn't a sure bet (it would depend on how the person was holding it.) As to cinder block, yes, it's soft if you aim at it, but a bullet will most likely glance off if you hit it at an oblique angle from very close range.

The rifle used at Sandy Hook was a Bushmaster .223. Depending on the type of rounds the shooter used, they might either splinter on impact (causing shrapnel scatter) or penetrate the steel. Historically, the determined "rampage" shooter has preferred armor-piercing rounds, probably on the theory that they will slow down law enforcement. Either way, the Bushmaster is very popular as a "home-defense" weapon precisely because it doesn't take much aim to use it to hit someone at close range; it's right up there with a 12-gauge shotgun in popularity for that use. Guns & Ammo did a story on the topic last year: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

 

[garada3]

You don't assign "A" student this task. You assign the entire front row, and you rotate rows periodically - or, you choose to put your largest, most athletic boys up front permanently. When you're huddled in the back, those students closest to the door should all have hold of a desk/chair. If the gunman makes it past the door, those students rush him collectively. The rest should now all be armed with whatever they can throw effectively. And they should be heaving anything not nailed down in his direction.[/]

Assigning "A" student is exactly what the teachers have been asked to do, assign one student by name for each of three jobs, helping calm others, barricading the door and attack the intruder. Teachers are asked to do this for each class period. That is what I am upset about, the assigning of students to the task.

Also, the front row of many classrooms is occupied by students who have IEP (special education) accommodations for preferential seating close to instruction, smartboard, or teacher. Not saying that these students will not act heroically in such a situation, but to illustrate that the teachers are not always free to seat students in any location in the room.

 

[torinsmom]

Wait, they have you put a sign under the door? I thought the whole point of the lockdown was to make it completely dark and silent so as not to draw attention. I can't imagine putting out a green piece of paper! That just seems... bizarro.

Yes, we have red and green laminated cards with our room number on them. We put one in a window and one under the door. If there is a problem, you use red and if there is not, you put green. This is a district procedure. It was the same way at the charter school I taught at. I agree it is stupid. Supposedly, it is to alert police which rooms to check.

 

[ashley0139]

Yes, we have red and green laminated cards with our room number on them. We put one in a window and one under the door. If there is a problem, you use red and if there is not, you put green. This is a district procedure. It was the same way at the charter school I taught at. I agree it is stupid. Supposedly, it is to alert police which rooms to check.

If there is a real problem, do they really think you're going to have the time and/or ability to put a red sign in the window? That's just so odd.

 

[torinsmom]

If there is a real problem, do they really think you're going to have the time and/or ability to put a red sign in the window? That's just so odd.

What I'm thinking is a class where someone had been hurt or shot would put out the red card afterward. The police would check rooms without either card as well. I've basically said if there is a real lockdown, I'm not putting out a card to advertise we are in the room.

What I think schools need is bullet proof windows all around. Then they need a lobby area that is cut off from the rest of the school by steel doors that lock. Visitors could be buzzed through that door. The office should have a silent alarm like banks that would alert police, but also send a signal to classrooms to alert them to an intruder.

Of course, all this costs money. In NC, we can't even afford assistant teachers. And some schools in our district don't even have the buzz in system for front doors.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

With all due respect, yes, I do. I grew up in a household where eating regularly meant hunting, and my father and brother liked to restore old weapons at home. I first fired a rifle at age 7, with the barrel strapped on a sawhorse so that I could manage the kick. I've also got a master's degree in 20th century military history.

A typical round from an AK-47 is easily capable of piercing 3/8" steel plating at 100m. A typical school desk is made from 20-gauge steel, which is about .035 inches thick. At a range of around 8 feet (which is probably about how far away the "multiple moving targets" would be in your scenario, the desk is not going to present any kind of barrier to that rifle round, assuming that the round even hits the steel, which isn't a sure bet (it would depend on how the person was holding it.) As to cinder block, yes, it's soft if you aim at it, but a bullet will most likely glance off if you hit it at an oblique angle from very close range.

The rifle used at Sandy Hook was a Bushmaster .223. Depending on the type of rounds the shooter used, they might either splinter on impact (causing shrapnel scatter) or penetrate the steel. Historically, the determined "rampage" shooter has preferred armor-piercing rounds, probably on the theory that they will slow down law enforcement. Either way, the Bushmaster is very popular as a "home-defense" weapon precisely because it doesn't take much aim to use it to hit someone at close range; it's right up there with a 12-gauge shotgun in popularity for that use. Guns & Ammo did a story on the topic last year: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

Okay, so that does sound better.

BUT, if you know that much, you must also know that a handgun bullet at close range is every bit as effective as the 2 rifles you referenced. And also that one does not simply spray bullets. In the 3-4 seconds before the students are upon him, the shooter gets off 1 or 2 carefully aimed shots, or 5-6 hastily fired shots. All the while books and other objects are being hurled at his head and he's being rushed by several kids whose outlines are obscured by the "shields". And yes; if he's armed with the bullets used at Sandy Hook, they will lose much of their effectiveness upon penetration. But, protection from bullets is not the primary use of the desks. They are there for (1) making target acquisition harder, and (2) for use as offensive weapons once the students reach the shooter.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Assigning "A" student is exactly what the teachers have been asked to do, assign one student by name for each of three jobs, helping calm others, barricading the door and attack the intruder. Teachers are asked to do this for each class period. That is what I am upset about, the assigning of students to the task.

Also, the front row of many classrooms is occupied by students who have IEP (special education) accommodations for preferential seating close to instruction, smartboard, or teacher. Not saying that these students will not act heroically in such a situation, but to illustrate that the teachers are not always free to seat students in any location in the room.

One for each of the first two tasks makes perfect sense. I do agree sending one after the attacker is futile at best.

 

[NotUrsula]

Okay, so that does sound better.

BUT, if you know that much, you must also know that a handgun bullet at close range is every bit as effective as the 2 rifles you referenced. And also that one does not simply spray bullets. In the 3-4 seconds before the students are upon him, the shooter gets off 1 or 2 carefully aimed shots, or 5-6 hastily fired shots. All the while books and other objects are being hurled at his head and he's being rushed by several kids whose outlines are obscured by the "shields". And yes; if he's armed with the bullets used at Sandy Hook, they will lose much of their effectiveness upon penetration. But, protection from bullets is not the primary use of the desks. They are there for (1) making target acquisition harder, and (2) for use as offensive weapons once the students reach the shooter.

3-4 seconds? Gradeschoolers? You really believe that kids that age are going to be capable of carrying out a counteroffensive that quickly in the face of live fire?

Military commanders have known forever that you have to actively train people to move toward the muzzle of a firearm. Human instinct tells us to freeze or drop; but NOT to go toward the danger. It is necessary to consciously overcome that instinct, and I simply don't believe that your average 8 yo is going to be able to do it in under 5 seconds if he has never faced a gun muzzle before, let alone one that is actually firing.

Also, these kids are going to weigh an average of around 70/80 lbs. Even if a bullet strikes the desk, the impact is going to knock them clean off their feet and make it difficult to get back up again quickly, which is probably going to give your shooter time to get the upper hand.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

First off, the discussion was middle schoolers. As for my 3-4 seconds, I believe that to be a good #. Is there a chance they all freeze and do nothing? Of course. But then at that point, time is no longer a factor and they're no better (or worse) off than what typically happens today.

And yes, the point is to train them to think differently. First instinct is - and always should be - to flee. But, when that fails, on to plan B.

And again, the real point of the whole thing isn't to turn children into little commandos. The point is much the same as us taking back the airlines. To let the nut jobs. Know that from this point on, we won't just let it happen. And if that notion stops even one nut from targeting a school, mission accomplished

 

[GagesMama]

And again, the real point of the whole thing isn't to turn children into little commandos. The point is much the same as us taking back the airlines. To let the nut jobs. Know that from this point on, we won't just let it happen. And if that notion stops even one nut from targeting a school, mission accomplished

You just sold me on the whole idea...

I've worked in the commercial construction industry, specifically doors and hardware. There is no way any school district that I know of can afford bullet resistant doors and glass. (Nothing is ever bullet proof.) They're ridiculously priced. That's pretty much out of the question.

Also, I can't remember who asked... but all doors have to open (swing out) to the outside for fire safety reasons. That's why (in most cases) all doors open into the hallway. It also creates barriers for people zigzagging down the hall to get out.