"RapidFill" RFID refillable mugs coming back resort wide...

[DCTooTall]

Except they are very specifically disallowing this.

It isn't a technological issue though. Activating an old ID should be just as easy as activating a new one. There must be a different reason.

Actually, i can think of a couple very simple technological reasons.... although they are somewhat self imposed tech reasons. (I'm repeating some of what I said above).

1. To save costs Disney designed the mug RFID system with a much smaller number of potential RFID identifiers.... like maybe only 512k potential IDs. With a 14 day max time to Live on a mug, the odds of having 2 mugs with the same ID active at the same time is small, with the worst case a minimal chance of guests noticing if 2 mugs with the same ID get activated at the same time [an extra day or 2 of soda.... or the fountain not working the first time you try and refill it but then shortly thereafter, which may not even be an issue if they keep the 'refill lockout' local and not resort wide....]. If they however started having a bunch of old 'expired' mugs brought back into the system the chances of multiple mugs with the same ID number start increasing dramatically.

2. If the POS systems used by the cashiers when you purchase a mug do not have the ability to insert a new RFID into the database, but can only update an existing ID's status.... with all RFID's added to the database/inventory behind the scenes with a process in place to delete old ID's from the database automatically to maintain system performance.

 

[DCTooTall]

Now that is something I hadn't thought of...I don't think they'd use an active chip (raises costs when not needed), but the idea of being able to clone IDs, attach them to other mugs, then go back and re-activate the original.

Still, not something typically possible by Joe Guest.

We are talking about a place where you have a virtual cottage industry set up of people charging others to help "con the system". From sales of used tickets, to selling AAA Diamond parking passes on EBAY, to all manner of GAC scams. With the ease of coding an RFID chip if you have the right know-how and equiptment, I could see someone popping up online offering to sell the average guest the cloned mugs...... And all sorts of ignorant guests thinking they found a way to save some money on their Disney Vacation paying these people the money to get them.

Again, I'm not sure it would matter much...just swap it out for a new mug. If the old mug failed after activation, THAT could be complicated it determining what its ID was to do the swap, if there isn't another code that can be human read on it, to get the entitlements left. Or, in the name of customer service, just give them a 14-day cup and not worry about it.

Disney already gets crap and accused of all sorts of things with things that aren't their fault, and are expected to fix it.... including people yelling and complaining simply to try and get something for nothing. If this RFID drink thing is truly designed to try and control costs, then opening up another door for abuse would almost seem counter intuitive.

RFIDs can be made to be unique to such a degree that you should never need to worry about collisions. I deal with systems that generate "Universally Unique IDs", and as long as you do it right there should never be a collision.

Yes, They CAN be made to be unique to such a degree.... but would Disney want too? It's one thing when they design a system such as the MagicBand which is attached to an admission ticket worth hundreds of dollars and which is expected to generate additional revenue or is tied into so many different systems internally. It's another when designing a small chip designed to be embedded in a cheap 'disposable' item that is being sold inexpensively and is used to help control access to another item that has a cost associated with it.

That extra $.10 in memory to store the larger integer may not seem like much, but when you factor in the percentage of the mugs retail cost that is designed to cover the mug cost, and how much is designed to cover the cost of the soda, that $.10 could end up being a larger bite into the expected profit per refillable mug sale.

Also, figure that small incremental cost spread out among the millions of mugs they would be purchasing. Even in the industry I work in it is a HUGE deal to convince them to add another 512k of ram to our device's spec because the cost increase while negligable, becomes a HUGE capital expenditure when you multiply it by the millions of devices we will purchase at once.

Hmmm...following the KISS model, I wouldn't pre-load IDs into a database. I'd just have a database of active IDs and when they expire. At POS, you scan the ID, the guest makes the purchase, and it is inserted into the database. After expiration it is removed. Keep the DB as small as possible.

It depends somewhat on the security side of things. Who know what kind of write access the are setting up their POS systems to have into the database? What kind of precautions do they want to have against fraud built into the system?

Sometimes your concerns for security, fraud, or theft, will by themselves prevent a basic KISS design.

 

[tjkraz]

Again, I'm not sure it would matter much...just swap it out for a new mug. If the old mug failed after activation, THAT could be complicated it determining what its ID was to do the swap, if there isn't another code that can be human read on it, to get the entitlements left. Or, in the name of customer service, just give them a 14-day cup and not worry about it.

(This relates to the re-using of older mugs rather than issuing new ones.)

My assumption is that guests who wish to re-activate an old mug would expect some sort of price break. Otherwise, there's really no need to support re-activation at all. Very, VERY few guests would ever return with an old mug if charged the same $18 fee as a guest receiving a brand new one. The re-users are going to expect to pay $10-12, or some other lesser fee.

With that stated assumption, we have to acknowledge that some component of the RFID tag will eventually fail. Power loss...damage from use...damage from dishwasher, etc.

So Disney is then placed in a position of deciding how long to offer complimentary replacements while still charging the lesser fee.

I buy four mugs in 2013 for $18 each. Five years later I return with the mugs in-hand, hoping to pay $10 to have each re-activated. But the batteries on the RFID tag have long since failed and the print on each is barely legible after dozens of trips through the dishwasher.

Is it fair to expect that Disney will only charge me the $10 (x4) re-activation fee AND give me four brand new mugs with RFID chips that actually work?

 

[doconeill]

Actually, i can think of a couple very simple technological reasons.... although they are somewhat self imposed tech reasons. (I'm repeating some of what I said above).

1. To save costs Disney designed the mug RFID system with a much smaller number of potential RFID identifiers.... like maybe only 512k potential IDs. With a 14 day max time to Live on a mug, the odds of having 2 mugs with the same ID active at the same time is small, with the worst case a minimal chance of guests noticing if 2 mugs with the same ID get activated at the same time [an extra day or 2 of soda.... or the fountain not working the first time you try and refill it but then shortly thereafter, which may not even be an issue if they keep the 'refill lockout' local and not resort wide....]. If they however started having a bunch of old 'expired' mugs brought back into the system the chances of multiple mugs with the same ID number start increasing dramatically.

I already answered somewhat from your previous post, but this part does have some potential reasons...given that the IDs need to be available to all drink stations resort wide, depending on how they are linked and their ability to deal with "disconnection", you'd want a small database. But as I said above, you ONLY need the database to contain the list of active IDs and their expiration (and I guess the last fill time if recent). If I'm building this for redundancy, each resort has a copy of the DB, copied from a master which is what the POS updates. If the master is unavailable, it just means they can add IDs, but everything still works locally with the most recent update. (A more complicated system gets around the master unavailability issue).

Or go with the one central DB. If you can't reach it, the fill station simply reads the ID to know it's a compatible mug, then defaults to allowing the fill, and locally keeps track for lockout purposes. Guests would have no idea unless they intentionally tried a mug that wasn't paid for.


And to answer your most recent followup...the incremental cost to store a UUID is not very high - pretty insignificant, actually. And pretty much the same for the RFID chip end...it's just a sequence of characters, and depending on the character set used, doesn't need to be terribly long either...to get technical, I think it is said that IPv6, which uses a 128-bit address, provides enough addresses to have one for every square foot of Earth, or something like that. That's only 16 bytes of storage per. How many mugs will actually be active at any one time?

 

[doconeill]

(This relates to the re-using of older mugs rather than issuing new ones.)

My assumption is that guests who wish to re-activate an old mug would expect some sort of price break. Otherwise, there's really no need to support re-activation at all. Very, VERY few guests would ever return with an old mug if charged the same $18 fee as a guest receiving a brand new one. The re-users are going to expect to pay $10-12, or some other lesser fee.

With that stated assumption, we have to acknowledge that some component of the RFID tag will eventually fail. Power loss...damage from use...damage from dishwasher, etc.

So Disney is then placed in a position of deciding how long to offer complimentary replacements while still charging the lesser fee.

I buy four mugs in 2013 for $18 each. Five years later I return with the mugs in-hand, hoping to pay $10 to have each re-activated. But the batteries on the RFID tag have long since failed and the print on each is barely legible after dozens of trips through the dishwasher.

Is it fair to expect that Disney will only charge me the $10 (x4) re-activation fee AND give me four brand new mugs with RFID chips that actually work?

Well, if giving them a "re-use discount" (although some seemed to indicate they didn't care), then a replacement mug can be sold at a nominal fee.

 

[tjkraz]

Well, if giving them a "re-use discount" (although some seemed to indicate they didn't care)...

The number of people who truly don't care about cost--or have altruistic reasons for not caring (i.e. environment)--is infinitely small, IMO.

Disney would get metaphorically torched at the stake if they if they announced a policy of: New length-of-stay mug: $18; Re-activated old mug: $18

...then a replacement mug can be sold at a nominal fee.

And that puts Disney in the position of constantly having to defend the quality of the product, even though RFID isn't designed for long-term durability.

"The mug is perfectly fine. Why are you making me pay for a new one?"

"Why did my first mug last 3 years and this one has to be replaced after 1 year?"

"There isn't really anything wrong with the mug...you greedy people just want more money out of me!"

 

[jcnewton]

Do you actually have a source for that information? It's long been rumored (and a variety of variations), but I've never seen anything that actually confirmed it.

Regardless, the cost of a 16oz soda is miniscule to the cost actually charged...

I was skimming through the thread, wondering if someone was going to mention this. I forget where I read it a while back, if I can find it I'll link it....but I saw that Disneyland gets their Coca-Cola products for free since the exclusivity in the park is basically free advertising for them. I would think it would be the same at WDW, but maybe not? If indeed they are getting the syrups for nothing, they've got to be making a killing off the mugs, even paying a couple bucks for the production of mugs and the cost of CO2 water.

 

[maxiesmom]

I was skimming through the thread, wondering if someone was going to mention this. I forget where I read it a while back, if I can find it I'll link it....but I saw that Disneyland gets their Coca-Cola products for free since the exclusivity in the park is basically free advertising for them. I would think it would be the same at WDW, but maybe not? If indeed they are getting the syrups for nothing, they've got to be making a killing off the mugs, even paying a couple bucks for the production of mugs and the cost of CO2 water.

That has been a rumor for a long time, but not one ever proven.

And even if it is true, it doesn't matter at all! Most companies sell their goods for a massive mark up.

People need to remind themselves every so often that Disney is a business. Either you want to buy what they are selling, or you don't. But they don't have to offer you their goods at a discount. They are like any other business, they are in it to make money.

 

[rantnnravin]

Are these chips embedded in the plastic molding itself? If not, why can't "re-activation" simply be the application/activation of a new RFID sticker?

 

[vandy]

Seems to be a lot of complaints on the rumored new price for mugs, and also whether or not Disney gets the syrup for free.

If they do get the syrup free, who pays for the dispensing machines, installation and upkeep? Coke and Pepsi do not offer a one-for-all contract for all businesses or entertainment venues, and each one is negotiated. One place may pay for the syrup but if they agree to a contract of X amount of time, the machines, installation and upkeep are free. If it is true Disney gets the syrup free, does anyone know who pays for everything else? In the end does it really matter what the cost is? It is the retail price of the soda that matters and it doesn't seem to be an issue with Disney or the consumer. Could they sell more soda at a lower price, likely yes, but will there be a big enough increase in sales to make up for the lowering of the retail price?

Also, I find it amusing there is such an uproar over the price of soda and even the profit Disney makes on soda. Where is the uproar over a $6.95 hot dog, $8.95 chicken chunks or the $9.95 cheeseburger? Face it, there is a huge profit on all food and drink items, not just soda.

Maybe the increase in the price of the mug is not for everybody, but then nothing is. It is likely Disney hoped it would be a non-issue for the majority, not for all. For us, we usually stay 9-10 days so yes, we can still get our moneys worth. In the future if the ability to fill up at the parks is a reality (as Jeff comments on the article), then it may become an even bigger value.

 

[Suger Mag]

Disclaimer: My family does not drink soda, so these mugs will not be something we use. So a bit of a bias but I don't see the issue....

Yes... RFID mugs will eliminate freeloaders using old mugs, so that is an obvious $$ win for the Mouse ... and I can understand (even though it kinda scares me how much soda is being drunk) that the inconvenience of the machine locations might make a larger size mug more convenient, but overall the addition of RFID to me does not seem that big of a change... they are using essentially the same mugs but are just adding a sensor to the machines and adding a chip to the mug so they turn off after x amount of days and are unable to be used at WDW machines. As DVCers we have access to a full kitchen in our villas and we stock our own beverages for in room. When in the parks... we just carry water bottles and refill at fountains, but is the price that different from the old mug?

For the life of me I cannot understand why someone would want to drag an old mug back year after year. With all the hassle of packing for a WDW vacation and remembering the crucials... trying to locate everyone's "official" RFID mug for reactivation seems like a real PIA. Just get a new mug...

If it is about saving money... then buying your own soda/drinks/crystal light mix whatever, would be way cheaper. If it about environmental aspects then honestly soda in any form...WDW mug or purchased are not very environmentally friendly products when you look at the overall cost of transport, production, and packaging for something that has no physical benefit besides yummy taste.

Of course the Mouse is a businessman... duh. Shareholders want profits maximized and costs minimized while still delivering a quality and unique product. Trimming waste and fraud will help the bottom line... even small leaks add up over time.

 

[BeerMe]

I guess Disney got sick of people bringing their Big Gulp mugs and using them.

 

[robinb]

Also, I find it amusing there is such an uproar over the price of soda and even the profit Disney makes on soda. Where is the uproar over a $6.95 hot dog, $8.95 chicken chunks or the $9.95 cheeseburger? Face it, there is a huge profit on all food and drink items, not just soda.

Have you been living under a rock? There is plenty of "uproar" over Disney's other recent price increases: the DDP, burgers, buffets, passes, resorts, etc, etc, etc. They just increased the DDP another $2-$3 per person per night for the rest of the year after an increase of $2-$3 in January, passes just went up about 11%, resort rates are shockingly high ($422 for the Polynesian in LOW season!?!?), buffets are now $40+ and a burger and fry costs more than $10. Just about everything at WDW has gone up 35%-50% in the last 4 years.

It is my belief that Disney is now concentrating on the "once in a lifetime" visitor who they can milk dry since they "only live once" and "it's only money". The rest of us are welcome to try to keep up with the Jones, but I think that I am personally very close to being priced out of many more Disney vacations. If I didn't own DVC and have an AP I think it would have already happened.

 

[vandy]

Have you been living under a rock? .

Evidently if you mean am I busy with two full time jobs, family, volunteer work and not on these boards every day then yes, I live under a rock and will now gladly go back.

 

[maxiesmom]

Have you been living under a rock? There is plenty of "uproar" over Disney's other recent price increases: the DDP, burgers, buffets, passes, resorts, etc, etc, etc. They just increased the DDP another $2-$3 per person per night for the rest of the year after an increase of $2-$3 in January, passes just went up about 11%, resort rates are shockingly high ($422 for the Polynesian in LOW season!?!?), buffets are now $40+ and a burger and fry costs more than $10. Just about everything at WDW has gone up 35%-50% in the last 4 years.

It is my belief that Disney is now concentrating on the "once in a lifetime" visitor who they can milk dry since they "only live once" and "it's only money". The rest of us are welcome to try to keep up with the Jones, but I think that I am personally very close to being priced out of many more Disney vacations. If I didn't own DVC and have an AP I think it would have already happened.

The only people they are milking dry are those who are willing to spend that kind of money on a vacation. Luckily Disney offers resorts that are much much cheaper. Spending over $400 a night for a room is purely that person's choice. As is eating any of the park food. Heck you don't even have to stay on site if you don't want to!

You can still take a trip to WDW and not spend a ton of money. But if you are willing, sure, they will take that money from you!

I think people need to keep in mind that any trip to WDW is a luxury. If Disney milks you dry, it is because you allowed them to.

 

[robinb]

Evidently if you mean am I busy with two full time jobs, family, volunteer work and not on these boards every day then yes, I live under a rock and will now gladly go back.

Apparently you are too busy to read the rest of the boards then . Take my word that they other people are indeed complaining about the price of burgers.

The only people they are milking dry are those who are willing to spend that kind of money on a vacation. Luckily Disney offers resorts that are much much cheaper. Spending over $400 a night for a room is purely that person's choice. As is eating any of the park food. Heck you don't even have to stay on site if you don't want to!

You can still take a trip to WDW and not spend a ton of money. But if you are willing, sure, they will take that money from you!

I think people need to keep in mind that any trip to WDW is a luxury. If Disney milks you dry, it is because you allowed them to.

Yes, of course the people being milked dry are doing so willingly! That is my point. I specifically said that I feel that Disney is relying more and more on the "once in a lifetime" visitor where money is no object. They will gladly spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a 1-week vacation with the DxDDP. Which is, of course, their right. And of course a family can do WDW for a lot less (staying off site, eating off site, packing in meals and snacks), but that person doesn't hold a lot of interest for Corporate Disney.

 

[Reddog1134]

Check out this chain of events.

1. Disney announces they are introducing RFID mugs that will prevent long term mug use while simultaneously increasing the price

2. A large portion of the DIS community says they won't buy the mugs and will just buy canned/bottled drinks to keep in there room refrigerators.

3. Disney announces they are pulling the refrigerators from all their rooms.

 

[pilferk]

People keep mentioning a system Disney is designing...

Isn't this pretty much off the shelf tech from a vendor. I'm sure there is some customization allowed, but some of the stuff being discussed, in terms of db setup and Id use would likely be pretty standard. The custom pieces would likely be in the pos interfaces...not the chips/station Ids.

 

[smitch425]

Check out this chain of events.

1. Disney announces they are introducing RFID mugs that will prevent long term mug use while simultaneously increasing the price

2. A large portion of the DIS community says they won't buy the mugs and will just buy canned/bottled drinks to keep in there room refrigerators.

3. Disney announces they are pulling the refrigerators from all their rooms.

I read from a TA on Facebook that a fridge caught fire in a room at GF. The cabinets that they are put in do not allow enough airflow. I do not believe for one second that the pulling of the refrigerators has anything to do with the new mugs, especially since they are putting in new fridges ASAP. Also, not every resort/room will be affected.

 

[Reddog1134]

I read from a TA on Facebook that a fridge caught fire in a room at GF. The cabinets that they are put in do not allow enough airflow. I do not believe for one second that the pulling of the refrigerators has anything to do with the new mugs, especially since they are putting in new fridges ASAP. Also, not every resort/room will be affected.

I know. I'm just