Check my FP+ Logic Regarding the Limit of 3

[skier_pete]

- With fewer FASTPASSES issued, a number of legacy FP attractions seem likely to fall in to that +/- 5 min timeframe during the slower periods you reference. Ones that come immediately to mind at MK are Buzz, Jungle Cruise...perhaps even Pooh and BTMR. .

Possible it's true, though I seriously doubt it for JC.

- The real "win" could prove to be experiences other than attractions. All of the ancillary experiences (Fantasmic, Illuminations, Wishes, character meets, parades) require waits of 30+ minutes even during slow seasons.

I agree with this in theory - but it depends on the area and the attraction and how they put the reserved area. If I choose to see MSEP as my FP+, so now I can show up 10 minutes before the parade instead of 90 minutes, that's wonderful. But if when I show up 10 minutes early I am still buried 5 deep behind all the other people with the reserved spot, meaning I have to get to the reserved area 60 minutes early. (This is what goes on at World of Color out in California. If you get the FP for the dining, sure you can show up last minute and have a spot - but it's not a GOOD spot.)

Ultimately the real issue is how many attractions you can visit in a given day rather than how long you wait in line. Efficiently "working" the current FP system tends to require a lot of criss-crossing of the park to obtain tickets. Sure there are some logical opportunities to get a FP for Splash and then standby for BTMR, but other times you'll find yourself walking from Fantasyland to Jungle Cruise for the sole purpose of getting FP tickets.

It does, I agree the criss-crossing is a pain - which i what I definitely LIKE about the system, being able to pick your parts - but a 10 minute walk across the park vs a 45 minute wait in line I'll still take the first choice. Plus, this is mostly NOT the case, we'll pull a FP for Jungle Cruise, then do Pirates and the Tiki Room, then go pull a BTM FP, then use JC...etc...not as much criss-crossing as you think.

With FP+, you completely eliminate the ticket walk. Your 3 FPs are locked-in before you even arrive at the park. Instead of running around to gather those additional 4-6 passes, you're waiting in the (hopefully) fast-moving, entertaining Standby lines.

Key word is *hopefully* right?

Disney has historically invested a lot of money in its themed queue areas. And that investment is growing in many areas. Yet thanks for FASTPASS, many of the queues are barely used by the guests who would appreciate them the most--the avid fans who instead maximize FP usage.

I admit to being one of those. I've never seen the EE queue, or played the Soarin' or Space Mountain queue games. I have no regrets of that. A line is a line.

At the end of the day, what really matters is not the number of 5+ minute waits...it's the number of attractions visited in a day and overall enjoyment of the visit. That's where FP+ has the potential to have the greatest impact.

Right - I agree with you. Except that I *hate* the waiting in line part. I don't care what you put in line to entertain me, it's still waiting in line. I hate it. And for the most part - the less time you spend waiting in line correlates with the # of attractions you see.

And we don't go commando at all, for the first 2 hours after rope drop, maybe we hit the rides pretty hard, but after that we really do take our time. But we use FPs to optimize our time.

I am not dismissing your arguments out of hand. I am gladly willing to consider the new system might be better. In fact, with the exception of MK, I think it would be. We rarely use more than 3-4 FPs at Epcot, DHS, and AK, so the only potential negative impact would be at MK, where we pile on the FP. Since that's typically only 2 days out of the trip, I might be able to risk the poorer experience at MK in exchange for the better experience overall.

For example - one thing I see this system improving is the hopping experience. Sure, you can only get your pre-book FP in one park - but I imagine that now I could go to MK in the morning for the first 3 hours until the lines build, then hop over to Epcot. I use my three FP+ options for the day on a 2 PM Soarin, a 4 PM Test Track, and a spot for Illuminations (assuming that's an option). Overall, that's a plussed experience versus the old system, where FPs made hopping worthless to me.

So - I guess I am saying I agree with your mentioned advantages, but I still see the disadvantages as well...and I don't know whether one will totally off-set the other. This is why I am taking a "wait-and-see" attitude as to whether I want to try the new system or not....since no one knows what the "official" system is going to be.

SkierPete

P.S. I also want to comment that anyone that states that "It was all better before FP even came to be" have very faulty memories. I remember our trip in early May 1997, pre FP, and we spent a LOT of time waiting in line. I remember 45 minutes for BTMRR - 90 minutes for Splash mountain and Space Mountain - and you had no other option - wait the 90 minutes or you don't ride. Are standy rides longer now? Probably - and FP lines contribute to that -but there's a good chance they are longer also because there are more people in the park than there were before FP happened. The "Slow" times of year aren't nearly as "slow" as they were 15 years ago. THAT combined with no new attractions in MK has done more to affect the length of Standby lines.

 

[Mike2023]

Hey and to Mike 2023-- your points are valid and I see several intersections between our logic paths-- I think I woke up today with a desire to argue.

Lol, that's everyday for me. Don't worry, i never take it personally.

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Granted I'm biased because I was a heavy visitor when fast pass was implemented and then an employee shortly thereafter...

But fast pass (my opinion) is perhaps the single best idea Disney has ever come up with to modify the parks for the better...even with notable failures (Peter pan)

Some of the comments here seem to blame fast pass for long lines...

I beg to differ...fast pass in most ways has balanced out lines and in some cases all but eliminated them. Even with some notable rides that just can't accommodate them.

But that's more to numbers given out than the system.

Still a strong proponent of fastpass

Just my 2

 

[beer dave]

Granted I'm biased because I was a heavy visitor when fast pass was implemented and then an employee shortly thereafter...

But fast pass (my opinion) is perhaps the single best idea Disney has ever come up with to modify the parks for the better...even with notable failures (Peter pan)

Some of the comments here seem to blame fast pass for long lines...

I beg to differ...fast pass in most ways has balanced out lines and in some cases all but eliminated them. Even with some notable rides that just can't accommodate them.

But that's more to numbers given out than the system.

Still a strong proponent of fastpass

Just my 2

I could imagine fastpass being great when first implemented, and could be now again that return times are enforced.

I have been one of the people who collects fps all day to use them any time after the first return time, so I am not blaming anyone for doing that --you do what you can.

I also have been in standby lines (RnR ToT Pooh) where they have to let at least 10 to 1 fp holders in to keep the fp line down. I know I didn't have to be in the line, but I am glad that this will stop. I am not against FP at all, I guess I am for the return times, and am anxious to reserve my FP's at home.

There will be so much less cross traffic in the parks if they ever completely eliminate the kiosks.

 

[thebwit]

I'm going to be upset if they limit it to 3 a day. And here's my reasoning for it. Right now the system lets you pull a FP and then you can get a new one either after the start of that time or 2 hours later. With that in mind we plan very well.

We get to the park right around open or before. We immediately grab FP for a ride and then ride another ride or two until our FP window is available. Then we get another FP and do the same thing. Sometimes when the FP return time is for later in the day, we have to wait two hours to grab another, but typically this system allows us to riding a good number of rides in a given period of time. The key is that we focus on one particular area instead of criss crossing the park.

When it is all said and done, in a standard day, I am not surprised if we grab 4,5,6 or more FPs throughout the day depending on how long we are at the park for.

If it is limited to only the 3 you pick before you even arrive, I know that we will be picking them for rides in the middle of the day when it is busiest versus doing what we do.

I don't think the current FP is truly broken. I think that they allow too many FP's for given rides at given times. Even with enforcing the return time, I've seen the FP lines get backed up on some rides to outside the attraction and stay that way for an extended period of time. That shouldn't happen. I understand when you get one of the groups of Brazilians of like 80 that all have FPs at the same time for Peter Pan, but there has to be a way to balance it out.

 

[ForMyBoys]

When I read about fast pass plus the first time I was not happy. Now that the idea has sunk in and now that I've read through many peoples opinions and view points I'm warming up to it. I'm not sure its the best idea to change it, but I'm not sure its the worst either.

I'm still concerned that because we have a larger family and stay off-site that we will only get one fast pass choice for the day.... wish for us would mean a lot more line waiting than we would do in the current system. Also, if we decide to take a last minute vacation we won't have many options as I imagine FPP will be reserved far ahead of time.

BUT I also think the current fast pass system adds a bit of stress to our Disney touring. Our family splits up a lot to get FPs and we criss-cross the park a lot. If through FPP we are able to reserve the ride (or rides if we are lucky) that we want to ride the most AND if we have fun interactive ques we may actually get more quality, fun family time together.

 

[beer dave]

When I read about fast pass plus the first time I was not happy. Now that the idea has sunk in and now that I've read through many peoples opinions and view points I'm warming up to it. I'm not sure its the best idea to change it, but I'm not sure its the worst either.

I'm still concerned that because we have a larger family and stay off-site that we will only get one fast pass choice for the day.... wish for us would mean a lot more line waiting than we would do in the current system. Also, if we decide to take a last minute vacation we won't have many options as I imagine FPP will be reserved far ahead of time.

BUT I also think the current fast pass system adds a bit of stress to our Disney touring. Our family splits up a lot to get FPs and we criss-cross the park a lot. If through FPP we are able to reserve the ride (or rides if we are lucky) that we want to ride the most AND if we have fun interactive ques we may actually get more quality, fun family time together.

I agree-- at first I thought we would be left out of FPP, since we do not plan much, but with a little analization (?) of our typical trip, I can see a readable pattern that will allow reasonable scheduling of FPP.

Our visits have become more relaxed, and since we never make rope drop, we will actually have an easier time getting FP's for the more difficult to see attractions.

As someone else here has said-- the key will be being ahead of the learning curve.

This is the same principle we have all been using for the current FP system, however now the general visitor has caught up with the early learning curve, making the system become more difficult to use for all, and the visitor who is "not in the know" is really out of luck.

Change is good.

 

[gaatty1137]

The capacity of the rides won't change, so not everyone will get to ride when they want to. Same as it now. However,instead of "rewarding" those who get to the parks early and/or have a fast pass plan of action, FP+ seems to reward those who book early enough.

I like the current system in that I can make certain sacrifices to ensure what I want to do...I can choose to not sleep in to make sure we get to ride TSM or I can choose to run my butt off getting fastpasses. But will is be like the ADRs that if I don't book early enough then too bad for you?..seems that way. We are going in June and I've already had to tell the kids that we probably can't have dinner at BOG since no reservations are available. I know it's not exactly the same but has me concerned.

I can adjust and book early for the best attractions in the middle of the day (like everyone else who has a clue under the new system). Those who don't will get a 9:30 am FP for TOT and a 8:30 pm FP for Star Tours and then have to stand in the same long lines the rest of the day. Magical.

It also seems the days of giving someone your fastpass you can't use are over since the wristband or RFID is the fastpass. I hate this as we have benefitted from the kindness of others and love when we have had the blessing of giving ours away.

Finally, does anyone know where these reserved parade or fireworks areas will be? If I plop my butt down 2 hours early for a parade spot (with a napping toddler..why not) will I be made to move if this is a reserved spot? I had this happen with an area reserved for handicapped persons watching a parade. When the rope came up, the CM told us we had to move and by this time we we three or four deep behind others. There was nothing marked letting us know this was a special spot. Ok, no big deal, just a bit of bad luck picking our spot. But what happens if 5000 ( or more) people get a parade spot FP because they want to or because nothing else was available?

Maybe I'm wrong and this will be great.

 

[tjkraz]

The capacity of the rides won't change, so not everyone will get to ride when they want to. Same as it now. However,instead of "rewarding" those who get to the parks early and/or have a fast pass plan of action, FP+ seems to reward those who book early enough.

For most experiences, it really won't matter. This isn't like a restaurant reservation where each location can only accommodate a couple hundred parties (max) for dinner each day. Even the lowest-capacity Disney attractions can handle upward of 1000 guests per hour.

When you factor in the dramatic increase in number of FP+ attractions and experiences (about 3x as many as in the legacy FP system) and the apparent limitation of 3 FP+ per guest, per day, there is likely to be a great deal of flexibility. Guests will be able to decide their destination park when they wake up in the morning, and still pre-book FP+ before leaving their hotel room. Or they can make adjustments on-the-fly while in a theme park.

The attractions / experiences with the absolute highest demand may present some problem. You might not be able to decide at 6pm that you'd like to ride Toy Story Mania before close, and still get a slot. And limited capacity experiences like the parade and fireworks viewing could prove more difficult if popular with guests. But overall, I don't envision this being a system where guests are blocked out of every E-Ticket attraction weeks in advance. Not even close to that.

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

~This is a really good discussion, all of the opinions and thoughts presented here are well articulated & very insightful -- I really enjoyed reading them. This thread is one of the best discussions on FP+ that I have ever seen -- color me impressed!!!

 

[Tekneek]

The old FASTPASS system will be gone when full conversion to FP+ has happened. Look at these interesting snippets from the My Disney Experience Terms of Service:

From the section titled CONVERTING TO PAPERLESS TICKETS:

"Once you convert a ticket or pass you will no longer be able to participate in the standard FASTPASS service upon arrival at the parks."

From the section titled DISNEY FASTPASS+ Service:

"You may make FastPass+ selections for one park per day."

 

[Tekneek]

"Availability of a FastPass+ experience, the number of experiences you may select and arrival windows are limited and vary based on factors such as the theme park you are visiting, the attraction or entertainment experience, the time of year and the day of the week, and prior demand. In addition, the number of days for which you can hold FastPass+ selections at any given time is limited."

This feels like an impending disaster, given how horribly Disney implements web services. For many, they still have to call in to reliably get their ADRs scheduled. I have little confidence they will get this right.

 

[skier_pete]

This feels like an impending disaster, given how horribly Disney implements web services. For many, they still have to call in to reliably get their ADRs scheduled. I have little confidence they will get this right.

Agree with this more than anything is concerning. Anytime I've tried to use their App in the park - it is SOOO slow I don't bother. Another reason for my "wait and see" attitude.

 

[MATTinNH]

Another thing to think about,

Multiple people have mentioned the theory that lines will become shorter if there are no fastpass options to begin with. This is a mathematical impossibility. Let me try to explain.

Rides have a set capacity per hour that fastpass has no effect on. The ride itself does not distinguish between a fastpass rider and a standby rider its all the same when it comes to how many people ride the ride. Now, when you remove that fastpass option from it it will eliminate the need to hold the standby line to allow fastpass riders to ride resulting in the line moving faster, but in the end, the same amount of people will get to ride in any given day/hour.

The effect of removing fastpass would not be shorter lines/more rides for everyone in a giving day, it would be the equalization between the amount of rides a fastpass user gets and a none user gets.

The ONLY way to actually reduce waits is to change a part of the equation (increasing ride capacity per hour while keeping guest volume the same, increasing attractions in the park while keeping guest volume the same, or decreasing guest volume)

Theoretically yes, however this thinking only works if everything is equal, and its not.

1) Not all rides have FP ( FP rides get more crowed lines, some of this is caused by reason 3. Expanding FP to other rides and options will thin this out)

2) Traffic flow of Guests is not even, some parts of the park get super crowed and others are not.( crowd control through RFID rumors helps this)

3)FP return times were never upheld. ( this would lead to people using them when its most crowed not when they are actually scheduled for)


These are just three reasons, there are more, but its not just simple math. There is way to much randomness and etc for it to be simple capacity and load time.

 

[GrnMtnMan]

Been away for a few days....catching up now. Some points:

1. For folks that think that Disney would like to have more people in standby lines: have you seen this patent filing (and article on The Dis about it)? While not conclusive, I'd say this points to the idea of having people utilize FP *more* not less.

2. One possibility for FP+ seems to that Disney can take down the FP return time display signs, and give different guests different FP return times. They can do this because you'll be booking your FP on your own phone or a kiosk. So a GF Concierge guest gets a return time in 20 minutes and an off-site visitor who brings their lunch with them in a cooler gets a further out return time. (2007 article - note patent app link is wrong in that article). Yes, the dreaded class discrimination that is the way of the world in pretty much every other Non-Disney theme park - but is present in more subtle forms in several Disney theme parks.

 

[Tekneek]

Yes, the dreaded class discrimination that is the way of the world in pretty much every other Non-Disney theme park - but is present in more subtle forms in several Disney theme parks.

This is also how it will be easy for them to implement the selling of FP+ slots in the future. It will be out of the view of the ordinary guest. Even if they know they could buy more slots, they aren't getting hit over the head with it all day and feeling like they're missing out. It all happens in the background and they don't really know how/why people got their reservation times. Disney has the ability to tweak it in any manner, fair or unfair, and stave off the peasant revolution by not being so overt.

 

[bcrook]

The worry that once FP+ is implemented, people will only be able to us FP thrice a day doesn't seem to stand up to logic. Consider that: 1) People today generally use more than 3 FP a day (assumption, but I think a safe one). And 2) More FP usage opportunities (attractions or shows/parades) are being added. There will therefore be more FP capacity once the FP+ options are added.

Unless the intent of FP+ is to get people away from FP usage and into stand-by lines (and have excess FP line capacity), then the 3 FP+ limit applies just to pre-booking FPs. Once you're in the park you'll be able to utilize the FP system in a way similar to the way its used today. Though instead of having to walk to a FP machine, you schedule a FP though a kiosk or personal Smartphone.

I'll be shocked off Disney wants to get more people into stand-by lines. In a standby line, people's satisfaction diminishes and they aren't spending money on food or merchandise.

How am I wrong?

There is also a possibility in the future more FP+ will be available as incentives. On an average day, MK has a lot more FP+ capacity than three per person. Where do the extra FP+ go? Are they available for first come first served? Will they be handed out as surprise and delight (nick Franklin v.p. said that)?, will they be incentives for deluxe room customers?, will they be available for purchase? Or some combination.

If Disney can get enough people to use FP+ for the things Tim mentioned (wishes, Fantasmic, meals, parades, etc) the FP+ capacity soars at the other parks too.

3 FP+ is apparently the magic number for all guests regardless of ticket type, room type, on site or off, but that won't be the end of this. There are too many additional passes left. They will be valuable to Disney to use accordingly.

 

[hopemax]

Another thing to think about,

Multiple people have mentioned the theory that lines will become shorter if there are no fastpass options to begin with. This is a mathematical impossibility. Let me try to explain.

Rides have a set capacity per hour that fastpass has no effect on. The ride itself does not distinguish between a fastpass rider and a standby rider its all the same when it comes to how many people ride the ride. Now, when you remove that fastpass option from it it will eliminate the need to hold the standby line to allow fastpass riders to ride resulting in the line moving faster, but in the end, the same amount of people will get to ride in any given day/hour.

The effect of removing fastpass would not be shorter lines/more rides for everyone in a giving day, it would be the equalization between the amount of rides a fastpass user gets and a none user gets.

The ONLY way to actually reduce waits is to change a part of the equation (increasing ride capacity per hour while keeping guest volume the same, increasing attractions in the park while keeping guest volume the same, or decreasing guest volume - bingo!)

Let me give you something to think about: the human element.

You are correct that the ride doesn't differentiate between FP and non-FP users, and that if the capacity hasn't changed, the same number of people get to ride.

But question? Are they the same people?

Wait times get shorter without FP, because some people that previously held FPs CHANGE their behavior. A rider who was willing to wait an hour to do something else, to come back and have a "walk on - 10 min wait," may not be willing to wait 45 min in a line. So they don't ride. So now the person that was waiting in standby has 1 fewer guest virtually in line in front of them. Their specific wait time gets shorter.

When FP was first implemented, people in the know said, that FP could be 50-80% of a ride's capacity. So for those 80% rides, it only took a few people with a high wait time tolerance to generate a standby wait line of an hour. With 100% of a ride's capacity going to standby, you need a heck of a lot more people willing to wait an hour to get it to an hour. And in a lot of cases, there aren't enough people to reach that threshold. So 1 hour waits, top out at 45 min because of the number of people with a lower wait time tolerance don't ride.

And this is my big unknown with FP+. My beliefs regarding human behavior lead me to think that: Number of people willing to wait standby for an hour < the number of people willing to pick up a FP < number of people willing to reserve a FP while sitting in their PJs in their home.

Certain rides are going to be overwhelmed with requests, leading to the same issues that occur with Toy Story Mania today. Online FP will sell out, leading people to scramble for whatever few remaining regular FP will be distributed "day of", and into the standby line for the first half hour of operation or so, before the standby line builds. And people who feel their ONLY option to ride is to wait in a standby line, may INCREASE their line tolerance, so a ride that had a 40 min wait with no FP, and an hour wait with FP, may turn into standby lines of 2 hours. Because human behavior changed.

People, especially Disney, hope that human behavior will change in a different way and they will willingly skip Popular activity A to do less popular activity G. And a few of them might. Most people, IMO, are going to focus on that Popular Ride A was unavailable to them (FP+ sold out, FP in park sold out, standby wait time too long).

Also IMO, the best way to change human behavior and therefore wait times is the same as it's always been. Make humans decide to do something else on their own. With attractions worthy of becoming a satisfying enough activity that they will chose over Popular activity A. Either new ones, or upgrading the experiences of existing ones. But that's more money.

 

[bcrook]

Yes Hope. Insightful.

 

[beer dave]

Let me give you something to think about: the human element.

You are correct that the ride doesn't differentiate between FP and non-FP users, and that if the capacity hasn't changed, the same number of people get to ride.

But question? Are they the same people?

Wait times get shorter without FP, because some people that previously held FPs CHANGE their behavior. A rider who was willing to wait an hour to do something else, to come back and have a "walk on - 10 min wait," may not be willing to wait 45 min in a line. So they don't ride. So now the person that was waiting in standby has 1 fewer guest virtually in line in front of them. Their specific wait time gets shorter.

When FP was first implemented, people in the know said, that FP could be 50-80% of a ride's capacity. So for those 80% rides, it only took a few people with a high wait time tolerance to generate a standby wait line of an hour. With 100% of a ride's capacity going to standby, you need a heck of a lot more people willing to wait an hour to get it to an hour. And in a lot of cases, there aren't enough people to reach that threshold. So 1 hour waits, top out at 45 min because of the number of people with a lower wait time tolerance don't ride.

And this is my big unknown with FP+. My beliefs regarding human behavior lead me to think that: Number of people willing to wait standby for an hour < the number of people willing to pick up a FP < number of people willing to reserve a FP while sitting in their PJs in their home.

Certain rides are going to be overwhelmed with requests, leading to the same issues that occur with Toy Story Mania today. Online FP will sell out, leading people to scramble for whatever few remaining regular FP will be distributed "day of", and into the standby line for the first half hour of operation or so, before the standby line builds. And people who feel their ONLY option to ride is to wait in a standby line, may INCREASE their line tolerance, so a ride that had a 40 min wait with no FP, and an hour wait with FP, may turn into standby lines of 2 hours. Because human behavior changed.

People, especially Disney, hope that human behavior will change in a different way and they will willingly skip Popular activity A to do less popular activity G. And a few of them might. Most people, IMO, are going to focus on that Popular Ride A was unavailable to them (FP+ sold out, FP in park sold out, standby wait time too long).

Also, IMO, the best way to change human behavior and therefore wait times is the same as it's always been. Make humans decide to do something else on their own. With attractions worthy of becoming a satisfying enough activity that they will chose over Popular activity A. Either new ones, or upgrading the experiences of existing ones. But that's more money.

And then-- People will be at home trying to book FPP for TSM, and it will not be available-- so they will go to a different park that day. Suddnely the parks with attractions that fill the FP's early will have fewer visitors.

Now as it is you actually need to go in to a park to realize if it is crowded or not. ( I don't find the internet sites very accurate) With the new system, judging by how many FPP are available, you can determine weeks ahead of time which park will be crowded. The FP's will be gone, and the parks will be empty. That would be cool.