Check my FP+ Logic Regarding the Limit of 3

[GrnMtnMan]

The worry that once FP+ is implemented, people will only be able to us FP thrice a day doesn't seem to stand up to logic. Consider that: 1) People today generally use more than 3 FP a day (assumption, but I think a safe one). And 2) More FP usage opportunities (attractions or shows/parades) are being added. There will therefore be more FP capacity once the FP+ options are added.

Unless the intent of FP+ is to get people away from FP usage and into stand-by lines (and have excess FP line capacity), then the 3 FP+ limit applies just to pre-booking FPs. Once you're in the park you'll be able to utilize the FP system in a way similar to the way its used today. Though instead of having to walk to a FP machine, you schedule a FP though a kiosk or personal Smartphone.

I'll be shocked off Disney wants to get more people into stand-by lines. In a standby line, people's satisfaction diminishes and they aren't spending money on food or merchandise.

How am I wrong?

 

[MATTinNH]

I think cutting down on FastPasses is excatly what they want. There are some people out there, ( and I agree ) that think FP's have caused stand by line times to be way higher than they were before FP's. It really can gum up the lines sometimes. I also think that all of interactive queues points to this.

I believe by the time everything they want to do is implented we we have a much more enjoyable experiance. FP will be faster, Standby will be a little shorter, and much more enjoyable.

I can remember going as a kid before FP, during Xmas, and the MK being at capacity, and lines still werent as bad as they are now.

I also didnt mind the lines as much. My family was very busy, both parents worked alot, and the 5 of us had some fun times talking, laughing and joking in line.

These new interactive queues will give families something to do and enjoy, while they are spending time together in those lines.

I think overall it will work.

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

I think cutting down on FastPasses is excatly what they want. There are some people out there, ( and I agree ) that think FP's have caused stand by line times to be way higher than they were before FP's. It really can gum up the lines sometimes. I also think that all of interactive queues points to this.

I believe by the time everything they want to do is implented we we have a much more enjoyable experiance. FP will be faster, Standby will be a little shorter, and much more enjoyable.

I can remember going as a kid before FP, during Xmas, and the MK being at capacity, and lines still werent as bad as they are now.

I also didnt mind the lines as much. My family was very busy, both parents worked alot, and the 5 of us had some fun times talking, laughing and joking in line.

These new interactive queues will give families something to do and enjoy, while they are spending time together in those lines.

I think overall it will work.

~Wow! I love your perspective on Fastpass Plus! I totally agree with this!

 

[SHOREDAD]

I think cutting down on FastPasses is excatly what they want. There are some people out there, ( and I agree ) that think FP's have caused stand by line times to be way higher than they were before FP's. It really can gum up the lines sometimes. I also think that all of interactive queues points to this. I agree

I believe by the time everything they want to do is implented we we have a much more enjoyable experiance. FP will be faster, Standby will be a little shorter, and much more enjoyable. I agree

I can remember going as a kid before FP, during Xmas, and the MK being at capacity, and lines still werent as bad as they are now.

I also didnt mind the lines as much. My family was very busy, both parents worked alot, and the 5 of us had some fun times talking, laughing and joking in line.

These new interactive queues will give families something to do and enjoy, while they are spending time together in those lines. I think this is an indication that indeed they want us standing in lines. I remember reading an article probably linked here on DIS about theme parks and a theory behind lines at theme parks. It basically said that while lines are inconvenient for guests and keep people from shopping and eating, they serve a purpose. IT helps control the crowds in the parks. People standing in line mean less people walking around the park, thus less traffic, and people don't feel as crowded. Seems to make some sense.

I think overall it will work.

I can recall being DHS RR and standing in stand by and watching 15 - 20 minutes of FP people going through, then 1 or 2 groups of people in stand by then right back to 10 - 20 minutes of FP. Less Fast pass could mean lower stand by lines.

My thoughts.

 

[GrnMtnMan]

Don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, so can you bring your thoughts back to the subject of the 3 FP+ thing?

In any case I disagree with the notion that Disney wants to put more people into the standby lines. it could be, but I'd be very surprised if they are investing a billion dollars for something that will be very hard to measure, ie. higher guest satisfaction becaus standby lines are shorter. Rather than the more easily measured return on investment from additional food and merchandise sales.

 

[tjkraz]

I'll be shocked off Disney wants to get more people into stand-by lines. In a standby line, people's satisfaction diminishes and they aren't spending money on food or merchandise.

Satisfaction diminishes because today the Standby lines move dreadfully slow due to the priority given to FP.

With fewer FPs distributed, Standby lines move faster. And the interactive queues help keep guests entertained along the way.

I agree totally with what Matt said. Not only do they appear to be limiting the number of FPs which can be obtained per day, they are dramatically growing the number of available options. Character meets, parade and fireworks viewing, Fantasmic and even high-capacity attractions like Haunted Mansion will have FP+.

FP+ will give everyone the opportunity to lock-in their high-priority attractions and (ideally) still tour the rest of the park, encountering reasonable Standby wait times.

It's been said that the original intent of FASTPASS was to get guests out of attraction queues and into gift shops and restaurants. But the claim seems to be that this phenomenon never materialized. Instead guests spent their time criss-crossing parks, picking up new FP tickets and redeeming the ones they already hold. Instead of guests spending more money, they ended up just clogging the walkways.

It is POSSIBLE they will still allow some same-day FP+ additions after entering the parks, but the interactive queue additions suggests that won't be the case. IMO, the reason Disney is investing in those Standby queues is because they will be getting more use in the near future.

Time will tell.

 

[MATTinNH]

The $1billion wasnt just for Fast Pass +. Its the whole My Magic + experience, which includes the Next Gen queues, and the ability to track peoples movements , be conected to their wireless devices while in the parks etc. All these things are part of making wait times shorter and more enjoyable. Its much bigger than FP+. If theres less FP's lines will get shorter. If the lines are more fun, less problems being in them. If they can tell that FL is crowded but FW isnt.....they will be able to bring out characters draw people out of line, or slow people from getting in them. They could have those characters have like a mini parade draw them out of line and into FW.

If FW gets crowed send 25% of the people there a coupon for a free ice cream at Caseys ( you know , theyll buy atleast another while they are there) send an other 25% a free fast pass for something in a less crowed area at that time. You can use this tech to do so many things.That can thinout and control crowd levels. That will do wonders for lines too.

 

[Mike2023]

The worry that once FP+ is implemented, people will only be able to us FP thrice a day doesn't seem to stand up to logic. Consider that: 1) People today generally use more than 3 FP a day (assumption, but I think a safe one). And 2) More FP usage opportunities (attractions or shows/parades) are being added. There will therefore be more FP capacity once the FP+ options are added.

Unless the intent of FP+ is to get people away from FP usage and into stand-by lines (and have excess FP line capacity), then the 3 FP+ limit applies just to pre-booking FPs. Once you're in the park you'll be able to utilize the FP system in a way similar to the way its used today. Though instead of having to walk to a FP machine, you schedule a FP though a kiosk or personal Smartphone.

I'll be shocked off Disney wants to get more people into stand-by lines. In a standby line, people's satisfaction diminishes and they aren't spending money on food or merchandise.

How am I wrong?

I have been meaning to come talk about this theory for a while now and I agree 100%. I think there is going to be a limit to how many you can "pre book" but once you are at the park it works in a way thats close to the same to what happens now.

Everyone is freaking out that "traditional" fastpass is going away and that everyone is going to be forced to plan your day in advance. It's my opinion that the paper pass will indeed go away very soon but only as a delivery method of the actual pass. The act of walking to a kiosk and obtaining a return time for some time in the future will remain. It will just be tied to your band or account and no actual ticket will be required.

As far as disney wanting people to wait in line thats just not the case. Disney wants you to spend money in shops or on food, they don't want you in line as you can't part with you money that way. Disney wants you to get a reservation for a ride, and then shop until your return window is up. In reality is does not work out that way because instead of shopping people tend to jump in line for a different ride while waiting for there return time to come around.

The interactive lines are an attempt at occupying the guests that decide to wait in line, in reality, there is not much disney can do about them.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

I think Disney is trying to maximize capacity without building additional attractions. This will allow Disney to control crowd flow and direct traffic to less popular attractions. The average family may be able to experience more attractions with this system, but I do think Disney is trying to limit the "super users"who maximize fast pass use.

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

Satisfaction diminishes because today the Standby lines move dreadfully slow due to the priority given to FP.

With fewer FPs distributed, Standby lines move faster. And the interactive queues help keep guests entertained along the way.

I agree totally with what Matt said. Not only do they appear to be limiting the number of FPs which can be obtained per day, they are dramatically growing the number of available options. Character meets, parade and fireworks viewing, Fantasmic and even high-capacity attractions like Haunted Mansion will have FP+.

FP+ will give everyone the opportunity to lock-in their high-priority attractions and (ideally) still tour the rest of the park, encountering reasonable Standby wait times.

It's been said that the original intent of FASTPASS was to get guests out of attraction queues and into gift shops and restaurants. But the claim seems to be that this phenomenon never materialized. Instead guests spent their time criss-crossing parks, picking up new FP tickets and redeeming the ones they already hold. Instead of guests spending more money, they ended up just clogging the walkways.

It is POSSIBLE they will still allow some same-day FP+ additions after entering the parks, but the interactive queue additions suggests that won't be the case. IMO, the reason Disney is investing in those Standby queues is because they will be getting more use in the near future.

Time will tell.

~Thank you so much for this post! I totally agree with you -- very sharp logic.

 

[EagleScout]

Unfortunately for the posters on this thread, there is one possibly inconvenient fact - Disney picked the proposed limits because that may be the limit (or close to it) if everyone - or nearly everyone - uses the FP system. There is some interesting analysis to this effect on various threads

 

[Mike2023]

Unfortunately for the posters on this thread, there is one possibly inconvenient fact - Disney picked the proposed limits because that may be the limit (or close to it) if everyone - or nearly everyone - uses the FP system. There is some interesting analysis to this effect on various threads

This is absolutely possible, but I'm not sure how likely. Without insider information its really hard to speculate.

With the addition of all the extra fast pass options I think they will more then double the amount of slots available in a given day. I think we can also assume that there will still be a demographic of guest that is not educated on the system and does not take advantage of it.

 

[Mike2023]

Another thing to think about,

Multiple people have mentioned the theory that lines will become shorter if there are no fastpass options to begin with. This is a mathematical impossibility. Let me try to explain.

Rides have a set capacity per hour that fastpass has no effect on. The ride itself does not distinguish between a fastpass rider and a standby rider its all the same when it comes to how many people ride the ride. Now, when you remove that fastpass option from it it will eliminate the need to hold the standby line to allow fastpass riders to ride resulting in the line moving faster, but in the end, the same amount of people will get to ride in any given day/hour.

The effect of removing fastpass would not be shorter lines/more rides for everyone in a giving day, it would be the equalization between the amount of rides a fastpass user gets and a none user gets.

The ONLY way to actually reduce waits is to change a part of the equation (increasing ride capacity per hour while keeping guest volume the same, increasing attractions in the park while keeping guest volume the same, or decreasing guest volume)

 

[beer dave]

The ONLY way to actually reduce waits is to change a part of the equation (increasing ride capacity per hour while keeping guest volume the same, increasing attractions in the park while keeping guest volume the same, or decreasing guest volume)

If the majority of people do not have fast passes (true) then the majority of people will have reduced waits if there are no fastpasses. The lines will still be the same length.

 

[Mike2023]

If the majority of people do not have fast passes (true) then the majority of people will have reduced waits if there are no fastpasses. The lines will still be the same length.

I don't agree with you that the majority of people don't use fastpass, but yes if you don't use fastpass you will see a decrease in wait time as an individual, but the other demographic will see an increased wait time average per attraction. Like I said in my post, you see an equalization of wait times overall.

Also the lines will not be the same length, they will be longer as more people will actually be standing in them, they will move faster though.

 

[beer dave]

I don't agree with you that the majority of people don't use fastpass, but yes if you don't use fastpass you will see a decrease in wait time as an individual, but the other demographic will see an increased wait time average per attraction. Like I said in my post, you see an equalization of wait times overall.

Also the lines will not be the same length, they will be longer as more people will actually be standing in them, they will move faster though.

When there are 200 people in the stand by line and there are 20 coming in with fp, the majority of people do not have fast passes.

The stand by line and the combined stand by / fp line will be the same length.

 

[skier_pete]

I think the new system might be better for lots of people - but selfishly I don't think it will be better for ME. Typically, we use 7-9 sets of FPs on a typical day in MK. We go at slower times of year (October/November usually) and combining FPs and smart touring we will rarely wait in line more than 5 minutes (I think last trip I counted 3 times we waited longer than that in line.)

If Disney now limits me to 3 FP+s per day, even though they are including more options - it means ME and MY FAMILY are going to be waiting in line longer. Sure, the standby lines might be shorter, and that's good for everyone else that doesn't use the old FP system to their advantage, but it's not good for me.

Now, I am not the type to rant and rave about how Disney is "ruining" my experience, that's not the case at all. But I do not see this as a change for the better if they limit my total # of FPs to 3. There's a good chance if that is the case, and I have a choice between the "old" way and the "new" way come November, I may just stick with the "old" way, even though I am looking forward to the MyMagic+ system.

 

[beer dave]

I think the new system might be better for lots of people - but selfishly I don't think it will be better for ME. Typically, we use 7-9 sets of FPs on a typical day in MK. We go at slower times of year (October/November usually) and combining FPs and smart touring we will rarely wait in line more than 5 minutes (I think last trip I counted 3 times we waited longer than that in line.)

If Disney now limits me to 3 FP+s per day, even though they are including more options - it means ME and MY FAMILY are going to be waiting in line longer. Sure, the standby lines might be shorter, and that's good for everyone else that doesn't use the old FP system to their advantage, but it's not good for me.

Now, I am not the type to rant and rave about how Disney is "ruining" my experience, that's not the case at all. But I do not see this as a change for the better if they limit my total # of FPs to 3. There's a good chance if that is the case, and I have a choice between the "old" way and the "new" way come November, I may just stick with the "old" way, even though I am looking forward to the MyMagic+ system.

Wow-- I have never used that many fp in a day-- for me 3 is probably enough. I guess our commando days are gone, being local, and DVC. At first I thought I wouldn't like the new system, since we do little planning, but as I think about how we choose which park to go to, I realize that our touring is somewhat predictable. I like the idea of not having th cross the park for fp, and after being one of the people who ignored the late fp return times in the past, am glad thet they now enforce it.

Hey and to Mike 2023-- your points are valid and I see several intersections between our logic paths-- I think I woke up today with a desire to argue.

 

[tjkraz]

I think the new system might be better for lots of people - but selfishly I don't think it will be better for ME. Typically, we use 7-9 sets of FPs on a typical day in MK. We go at slower times of year (October/November usually) and combining FPs and smart touring we will rarely wait in line more than 5 minutes (I think last trip I counted 3 times we waited longer than that in line.)

If Disney now limits me to 3 FP+s per day, even though they are including more options - it means ME and MY FAMILY are going to be waiting in line longer. Sure, the standby lines might be shorter, and that's good for everyone else that doesn't use the old FP system to their advantage, but it's not good for me.

Couple thoughts:

- With fewer FASTPASSES issued, a number of legacy FP attractions seem likely to fall in to that +/- 5 min timeframe during the slower periods you reference. Ones that come immediately to mind at MK are Buzz, Jungle Cruise...perhaps even Pooh and BTMR.

- The real "win" could prove to be experiences other than attractions. All of the ancillary experiences (Fantasmic, Illuminations, Wishes, character meets, parades) require waits of 30+ minutes even during slow seasons.

- Ultimately the real issue is how many attractions you can visit in a given day rather than how long you wait in line. Efficiently "working" the current FP system tends to require a lot of criss-crossing of the park to obtain tickets. Sure there are some logical opportunities to get a FP for Splash and then standby for BTMR, but other times you'll find yourself walking from Fantasyland to Jungle Cruise for the sole purpose of getting FP tickets.

With FP+, you completely eliminate the ticket walk. Your 3 FPs are locked-in before you even arrive at the park. Instead of running around to gather those additional 4-6 passes, you're waiting in the (hopefully) fast-moving, entertaining Standby lines.

Disney has historically invested a lot of money in its themed queue areas. And that investment is growing in many areas. Yet thanks for FASTPASS, many of the queues are barely used by the guests who would appreciate them the most--the avid fans who instead maximize FP usage.

At the end of the day, what really matters is not the number of 5+ minute waits...it's the number of attractions visited in a day and overall enjoyment of the visit. That's where FP+ has the potential to have the greatest impact.

 

[elaine amj]

The $1billion wasnt just for Fast Pass +. Its the whole My Magic + experience, which includes the Next Gen queues, and the ability to track peoples movements , be conected to their wireless devices while in the parks etc. All these things are part of making wait times shorter and more enjoyable. Its much bigger than FP+. If theres less FP's lines will get shorter. If the lines are more fun, less problems being in them. If they can tell that FL is crowded but FW isnt.....they will be able to bring out characters draw people out of line, or slow people from getting in them. They could have those characters have like a mini parade draw them out of line and into FW.

If FW gets crowed send 25% of the people there a coupon for a free ice cream at Caseys ( you know , theyll buy atleast another while they are there) send an other 25% a free fast pass for something in a less crowed area at that time. You can use this tech to do so many things.That can thinout and control crowd levels. That will do wonders for lines too.

All I hope for is that before they implement this...they FiX the wifi in the parks!! I was in MK last week and spent all day long trying to get a wifi signal to look up wait times, make dining reservations, look up stuff in the new Disney app...and it was near impossible. Only certain places had a strong wifi signal. My tmobile data was also useless. The new Disney app seems completely focused on wifi. I couldn't even look up menus on it because I couldn't connect properly to it. If they expect us to use this new system, they better make sure they have the infrastructure to support it.