Sparrow624's Perpetual DVC Question Thread

[kristenrice]

Struggling to find the mathamatical benefit here of joining DVC? Don't get me wrong, I want to, but it just doesn't seem to make sense financially, at least not for the Wilderness lodge. Is something wrong with my math here?

DVC: Wilderness Lodge (Expires January 31, 2042):

Re-Sale Cost: 150 Points for roughly $9,500.00

About $1050 per year in maintenance fees (rounding and adding up just a bit to encorporate for assumed raises and inflation) ($88 per month)

$9,500 initial buy in
About $32,000 in total maintenance over 30 years

Total: $41,500 not including food or tickets.

*This would get me about 8 nights in a one bedroom studio every 2 years during the summer (that is when we can travel)

Booking a Deluxe, Courtyard view Room at Rack Rate straight through Disney

$2,900.00 for 7 nights every other summer.

Total for 15 trips (every other summer for 30 years): $43,500.00



So, I would only save $2,000 total by choosing to join DVC?

And that is at rack rate...so, conceivably, I could/would save money booking Disney hotels at whatever promotion they have going on instead of DVC?

The only "flaw" is that you are not comparing apples to apples. You are comparing a single hotel room to a 1BR villa. The 1BR villa will have a full kitchen, washer/dryer, jacuzzi tub and a separate living room. So, yes, you might only "save" $2000, but you are getting a much "nicer" room.

 

[Sparrow624]

The only "flaw" is that you are not comparing apples to apples. You are comparing a single hotel room to a 1BR villa. The 1BR villa will have a full kitchen, washer/dryer, jacuzzi tub and a separate living room. So, yes, you might only "save" $2000, but you are getting a much "nicer" room.

I guess what I would be paying for then would be the ability to cook and/or do laundry if needed?

In the DVC one bedroom I get a king bed and a pull out sofa.

In the Regular Deluxe booking, I get a courtyard view and 2 queen beds (no one on a sofa).

I guess it is apples and oranges, but again, I am looking for a great benefit to lock into one resort for the most part and am struggling to find it. Is there another benefit other than the kitchen and washer/dryer?

I am trying to convince my wife, but she is not seeing a value in doing this.

 

[disneynutz]

Many who buy DVC make it work. They change their vacation patterns based on availability and they learn to deal with the rules, restrictions, policies, and system. Many now have to vacation more than they would like because they don't want to forfeit points and the extra vacations don't come cheap. It only takes a couple of these "extra" vacations to wipe out any cost savings.

One area where the DVC is a winner is with the 1 bedroom and larger units. Using points for the larger units are a good buy compared to paying cash for the same units. It's easy to get spoiled with the space, we put 2 in a 1 bedroom and 3 in a 2 bedroom.

You also have to think about all of the available resales. Why are there so many?

Bill

 

[DougEMG]

I guess what I would be paying for then would be the ability to cook and/or do laundry if needed?

In the DVC one bedroom I get a king bed and a pull out sofa.

In the Regular Deluxe booking, I get a courtyard view and 2 queen beds (no one on a sofa).

I guess it is apples and oranges, but again, I am looking for a great benefit to lock into one resort for the most part and am struggling to find it. Is there another benefit other than the kitchen and washer/dryer?

I am trying to convince my wife, but she is not seeing a value in doing this.

If you want to do an apples to apples, compare the costs of the deluxe hotel room with a DVC studio. The DVC studio takes half the points that a 1 bedroom does, so that will suddenly give you a much different set of numbers. So instead of $41,500 for DVC in a 1 bedroom , you are looking at $21,250 for a DVC studio. That suddenly looks a lot better than the $43,500 for the deluxe hotel room.

So you can stay in a DVC 1 bedroom instead of the hotel room for a similar price or you can stay in a DVC studio instead of the hotel room for about half the price.

Disclaimer: I assumed the original numbers you gave are correct.

 

[MsTessP]

The other factor not considered is the increase of the rate which Disney will charge per night (whether rack or even discount) over the next 20-30 years. I imagine that if we were to research and come up with those rate of 20-30 years ago, then we would see a substantial increase compared to today's rates.

 

[chalee94]

I guess what I would be paying for then would be the ability to cook and/or do laundry if needed?

not to mention the extra space. an OKW 1BR has about 1000 sq ft of space.

In the Regular Deluxe booking, I get a courtyard view and 2 queen beds (no one on a sofa).

some people are timeshare people and some are hotel people (real beds and daily housekeeping). if you are hotel person, that's cool - no need to keep trying to make it work...

 

[Sparrow624]

Good points.

We still only get the one bed (and a pullout couch which are not exactly comfortable) with the studio. Though, we would get more nights every 2 years or every year, but that is more in ticket and food cost.

Hmmmm

 

[bwvBound]

I guess it is apples and oranges, but again, I am looking for a great benefit to lock into one resort for the most part and am struggling to find it. Is there another benefit other than the kitchen and washer/dryer?

There is a certain je ne sais quoi, intangible, difficult to define, element to 'owning DVC' (which could also be applied to many other timeshare systems). It is the element that makes you dream of future vacations just because you own the points. It is the element that has toying with locations "just because you can." For some, it manifests itself in a need try all the DVC locations: WDW, Vero Beach, Hilton Head, California and Oahu. It keeps a small flicker of that Disney vacation magic glowing in your eyes for years to come. It can't be easily quantified ... but it is there, all the same, for most owners.

It is renewed by small touches:

• A "zero due" bill at checkout.
• A "Welcome Home!" on arrival.
• Unpacking your Owner's Locker and rediscovering familiar personal items.
• Knowing exactly which button to press on the microwave for the nightlight w/out having to look.
• Closing the door between parents and children for some alone time ... even if that is only the door between the King Bed in the Master and the Pull-Out Soft bed in the Living Room.
• Sharing a full-size pot of coffee using real mugs on your patio or balcony.
• Having a place to stash that restaurant doggie bag ... and then retrieving it for a mid-night snack. (Or perhaps cold pizza for breakfast?)
• Borrowing DVDs from the Resort Community Center all throughout your stay.
• Participating in activities at the Community Center. Perhaps in lieu of a park day?
• Increasing the number of non-park days on any given trip. Trying something new in the area ... or simply time relaxing.

 

[kristenrice]

Good points.

We still only get the one bed (and a pullout couch which are not exactly comfortable) with the studio. Though, we would get more nights every 2 years or every year, but that is more in ticket and food cost.

Hmmmm

Don't discount the comfort of the pullout sofas. They are actually quite comfortable. I slept 6 nights on the pullout at AKV with my (then) 2yo DD and I slept like a brick. I had more trouble sleeping on the regular bed at OKW.

One of the reasons we bought DVC is to make sure that we take a vacation every year. We bought our original contract at AKV because if money gets tight, we can easily entertain ourselves at the resort without going to the parks. When you have a full kitchen and laundry, you can very easily "live" in your room. This can save you a substantial amount of money in food costs and still allow you to eat real meals at the table.

I never really grasped the full benefit of the 1BR until I stayed in one. I also figured that a studio would be just fine since it is just the four of us. While I don't mind a studio for a night or two, it just is not the same as the 1BR.

 

[skirby]

Mousesavers has a pretty good cost analysis here. They even provide you with their spreadsheet that would need a little updating to current numbers. As PP said, make sure you are comparing apples to apples when looking at the room types.

 

[BestDadEver]

The other factor not considered is the increase of the rate which Disney will charge per night (whether rack or even discount) over the next 20-30 years. I imagine that if we were to research and come up with those rate of 20-30 years ago, then we would see a substantial increase compared to today's rates.

This is what I was going to say . The room prices are only going to go up in the future .

Also when you pay cash you are going to get hit with currently , a 12.9% tax on top of the rack rate. I consider the tax , the equal to the dues .

 

[Dean]

Interesting. Why would they do this, what do they gain from this?

Given the ability to link reservations anyway, this is just going to cause more work for member services as owners call up to link their reservations. If they stop linking and make you move then house keeping costs are going to go up as rooms will need to be cleaned more if you have to move more.

I think you're making too many assumptions that the way things are now are the way they will remain. Just removing the ability to combine accounts will push some to retail. Removing the ability to link reservations will push even more that direction. There are other issues that COULD change. There is no guarantee that the current fee structure will remain. Most points systems charge a club fee separate from the maint fees and at least one charges a base fee then a per point amount above that. That could be one per account. The possibilities are endless as it relates to the changes that could happen. Whether they will or are likely to is up for debate.

 

[Dean]

Struggling to find the mathamatical benefit here of joining DVC? Don't get me wrong, I want to, but it just doesn't seem to make sense financially, at least not for the Wilderness lodge. Is something wrong with my math here?

DVC: Wilderness Lodge (Expires January 31, 2042):

Re-Sale Cost: 150 Points for roughly $9,500.00

About $1050 per year in maintenance fees (rounding and adding up just a bit to encorporate for assumed raises and inflation) ($88 per month)

$9,500 initial buy in
About $32,000 in total maintenance over 30 years

Total: $41,500 not including food or tickets.

*This would get me about 8 nights in a one bedroom studio every 2 years during the summer (that is when we can travel)

Booking a Deluxe, Courtyard view Room at Rack Rate straight through Disney

$2,900.00 for 7 nights every other summer.

Total for 15 trips (every other summer for 30 years): $43,500.00



So, I would only save $2,000 total by choosing to join DVC?

And that is at rack rate...so, conceivably, I could/would save money booking Disney hotels at whatever promotion they have going on instead of DVC?

I'm a little confused with your wording but 150 points will get you a studio very year for a week or just over and a 1 BR a little more than EOY, maybe an extra year 3-4 times or so times during the remaining RTU. However, a 1 BR is the most difficult option to show a savings by buying in financially speaking. Still, at break even, I'd far rather have the 1 BR than a deluxe hotel room. Remember you can still enjoy much of the savings and benefits by renting as well.

 

[k3chantal]

There is a certain je ne sais quoi, intangible, difficult to define, element to 'owning DVC' (which could also be applied to many other timeshare systems). It is the element that makes you dream of future vacations just because you own the points. It is the element that has toying with locations "just because you can." For some, it manifests itself in a need try all the DVC locations: WDW, Vero Beach, Hilton Head, California and Oahu. It keeps a small flicker of that Disney vacation magic glowing in your eyes for years to come. It can't be easily quantified ... but it is there, all the same, for most owners.

It is renewed by small touches:

• A "zero due" bill at checkout.
• A "Welcome Home!" on arrival.
• Unpacking your Owner's Locker and rediscovering familiar personal items.
• Knowing exactly which button to press on the microwave for the nightlight w/out having to look.
• Closing the door between parents and children for some alone time ... even if that is only the door between the King Bed in the Master and the Pull-Out Soft bed in the Living Room.
• Sharing a full-size pot of coffee using real mugs on your patio or balcony.
• Having a place to stash that restaurant doggie bag ... and then retrieving it for a mid-night snack. (Or perhaps cold pizza for breakfast?)
• Borrowing DVDs from the Resort Community Center all throughout your stay.
• Participating in activities at the Community Center. Perhaps in lieu of a park day?
• Increasing the number of non-park days on any given trip. Trying something new in the area ... or simply time relaxing.

Very well said!

 

[ELMC]

This is what I was going to say . The room prices are only going to go up in the future .

Also when you pay cash you are going to get hit with currently , a 12.9% tax on top of the rack rate. I consider the tax , the equal to the dues .

Can you please explain your thinking here? I'm not seeing a way in which the tax for a stay is the same amount as the maintenance fees.

 

[joelp]

Struggling to find the mathamatical benefit here of joining DVC? Don't get me wrong, I want to, but it just doesn't seem to make sense financially, at least not for the Wilderness lodge. Is something wrong with my math here?

DVC: Wilderness Lodge (Expires January 31, 2042):

Re-Sale Cost: 150 Points for roughly $9,500.00

About $1050 per year in maintenance fees (rounding and adding up just a bit to encorporate for assumed raises and inflation) ($88 per month)

$9,500 initial buy in
About $32,000 in total maintenance over 30 years

Total: $41,500 not including food or tickets.

*This would get me about 8 nights in a one bedroom studio every 2 years during the summer (that is when we can travel)

Booking a Deluxe, Courtyard view Room at Rack Rate straight through Disney

$2,900.00 for 7 nights every other summer.

Total for 15 trips (every other summer for 30 years): $43,500.00



So, I would only save $2,000 total by choosing to join DVC?

And that is at rack rate...so, conceivably, I could/would save money booking Disney hotels at whatever promotion they have going on instead of DVC?

Looking at it financially, you also need to consider inflation over 30 years (or the entire life of the contract) ...

It's easy to do if you know how to use Excel (and somewhere along the line, a rate of increase of about 3.4% years was mentioned for the maintenance fees). So over 30 years, the MF will cost more than you have estimated ...

BUT - the rack rate for a hotel toom will cost a lot more (3.4% increases on ~$5 per point for the MF changes a lot less in dollar-terms then on $300+ per night for a hotel room ...)

For example, when I did my calculations, a Savannah View Room at the AKL may cost about $1700 a night 45 years from now (when my daughter will want to go - if I can go to WDW when I'm 98 I'll be dancing down Main Street!!), with MFs running abut $23 per point. And from personal experience booking rooms at the Animal Kingdom Lodge, hotels rate over the 5 years have increased a lot more than 3.4% per year ...

So another way to look at buying into DVC is as a hedge against inflation in room prices ...


And as others have noted, you need to compare apples to apples ...

 

[Dean]

So another way to look at buying into DVC is as a hedge against inflation in room prices ...

or a risk tied to it. If you don't own and prices go up too much, you can chose other options. If you own and prices go up a lot you're locked in and if that happens, there would be little or no chance of selling out. I also think it's unreasonable to assume a different rate of inflation for maint fees and room costs, if anything, I would expect the % of increase net of discounts to be less for rooms than dues but assuming the same increase is reasonable. There are a lot of variables and risks that can't be truly accounted for. It's simply a gamble that includes variables such as one's finances, the price of rooms, dues, health issues and changes in personal situations and preferences. I think the risk is still reasonable for many but I see some buying in where it's not reasonable. It's like those buying the DDP saying they don't care how much it costs, they just like the convenience.

 

[belias21]

There is a certain je ne sais quoi, intangible, difficult to define, element to 'owning DVC' (which could also be applied to many other timeshare systems). It is the element that makes you dream of future vacations just because you own the points. It is the element that has toying with locations "just because you can." For some, it manifests itself in a need try all the DVC locations: WDW, Vero Beach, Hilton Head, California and Oahu. It keeps a small flicker of that Disney vacation magic glowing in your eyes for years to come. It can't be easily quantified ... but it is there, all the same, for most owners.

It is renewed by small touches:

• A "zero due" bill at checkout.
• A "Welcome Home!" on arrival.
• Unpacking your Owner's Locker and rediscovering familiar personal items.
• Knowing exactly which button to press on the microwave for the nightlight w/out having to look.
• Closing the door between parents and children for some alone time ... even if that is only the door between the King Bed in the Master and the Pull-Out Soft bed in the Living Room.
• Sharing a full-size pot of coffee using real mugs on your patio or balcony.
• Having a place to stash that restaurant doggie bag ... and then retrieving it for a mid-night snack. (Or perhaps cold pizza for breakfast?)
• Borrowing DVDs from the Resort Community Center all throughout your stay.
• Participating in activities at the Community Center. Perhaps in lieu of a park day?
• Increasing the number of non-park days on any given trip. Trying something new in the area ... or simply time relaxing.

Wow! We could talk rack rate, taxes, inflation, and maintenance fees until we're blue in the face... THIS post (at least in my mind) sums it all up! I refer to it as owning a piece of the magic. If this is important to you (and it was for us), then you'll make the numbers work. I'm not advocating that one be careless or frivolous, but if you have the means and the desire to buy in, then do it.

 

[bighoo93]

There is a certain je ne sais quoi, intangible, difficult to define, element to 'owning DVC' (which could also be applied to many other timeshare systems). It is the element that makes you dream of future vacations just because you own the points. It is the element that has toying with locations "just because you can." For some, it manifests itself in a need try all the DVC locations: WDW, Vero Beach, Hilton Head, California and Oahu. It keeps a small flicker of that Disney vacation magic glowing in your eyes for years to come. It can't be easily quantified ... but it is there, all the same, for most owners.

It is renewed by small touches:

• A "zero due" bill at checkout.
• A "Welcome Home!" on arrival.
• Unpacking your Owner's Locker and rediscovering familiar personal items.
• Knowing exactly which button to press on the microwave for the nightlight w/out having to look.
• Closing the door between parents and children for some alone time ... even if that is only the door between the King Bed in the Master and the Pull-Out Soft bed in the Living Room.
• Sharing a full-size pot of coffee using real mugs on your patio or balcony.
• Having a place to stash that restaurant doggie bag ... and then retrieving it for a mid-night snack. (Or perhaps cold pizza for breakfast?)
• Borrowing DVDs from the Resort Community Center all throughout your stay.
• Participating in activities at the Community Center. Perhaps in lieu of a park day?
• Increasing the number of non-park days on any given trip. Trying something new in the area ... or simply time relaxing.

I think these are really good points. Even though I only just finished my first stay at a DVC resort (OKW) and was only renting, I still enjoyed almost all of those things, and they are much of what prompted us to buy into DVC (via resale).

 

[bighoo93]

Good points.

We still only get the one bed (and a pullout couch which are not exactly comfortable) with the studio. Though, we would get more nights every 2 years or every year, but that is more in ticket and food cost.

Hmmmm

I think you are doing a good job thinking this through. It is true that in order to be fair about the benefits of DVC, you have to do a true apples to apples comparison (i.e., what would it cost to get the same room and services without DVC). Comparing to renting DVC is the most obvious way, but you may have other alternatives. For example, we just returned from our OKW trip, and the 2 BR cost us ~$2800 for the week (we LOVED it). If my SSR resale gets past ROFR (please please please please please), the same room would cost ~$1000. The points cost ~ $11,000, so it is about 6 trips before we've hit the breakeven point (this is all math in my head, apologies if it is all wrong...).

But an apples to apples comparison isn't necessarily right for making your decision. My family of 6 needs the space of a 2 BR and the kitchen to save some money on meals. DVC villas are about our only option, so comparing owning and renting is simple. But for you, it is comparing your vacation alternatives and weighing the different benefits to each, of which cost is only one component. If your alternatives really are a Deluxe courtyard rack rate room vs. a 1 BR DVC villa, so be it. It doesn't matter that they are not the same type of room or amenities, it is what you consider your lodging alternatives to be. If you don't really need the kitchen, that is not much of a benefit. My wife declines daily housekeeping when we stay at hotels, so it is actually a benefit to us that they don't try to do that in the DVC villas. But for you that might be a negative.

I think your approach in weighing your true alternatives is the right one to take. But I think it threw people off when you did a direct price comparison, which implied that you were looking at the same rooms/amenities and only varying cost.