Disney, Adoption and The Avengers...

[EricQelDroma]

EricQelDroma, you actually sought out a Disney website to complain about this comment? Wouldn't it make more sense to complain to the filmmakers themselves?

My first letters were directly to the filmmakers. I then Googled the issue to see what people were saying. I chose to join this conversation. I wasn't specifically seeking out a Disney site, although it is a Disney film.

And I don't ever consider constructive (if heated) debate a waste of time, so it made plenty of sense to me to join this conversation.

Anyway, I'm up past my bedtime! Good night, all!

 

[JenM]

Oh, it's definitely time for jazz hands again:

 

[EricQelDroma]

Oh, it's definitely time for jazz hands again:

There's a couple of us newbies here (me included) who don't get this reference. Would someone please explain it?

 

[plutotek]

My daughter was confused and angry about this. She's too young to turn it into proper "outrage." I'm outraged for her and for myself, so it sounds to me like you're calling us (and anyone else offended by the line) "pathetic" as well.

Well, I was considering taking you up on your original offer (before you edited your response) so I will just say that in all your moral outrage, you are only seeing what you want to see in the responses before you, and no cohesive argument will cause you to understand anything beyond your perceived insult in those 2-3 words and the subsequent laughter they garnered.

Oh, and you can probably put the high horse away, because I am an adoptive father and am well aware of what that entails. And that is why the only thing I find more amusing than a throwaway line in a movie is the moral outrage that has been expressed by you and others.

 

[JenM]

Well, I was considering taking you up on your original offer (before you edited your response) so I will just say that in all your moral outrage, you are only seeing what you want to see in the responses before you, and no cohesive argument will cause you to understand anything beyond your perceived insult in those 2-3 words and the subsequent laughter they garnered.

Oh, and you can probably put the high horse away, because I am an adoptive father and am well aware of what that entails. And that is why the only thing I find more amusing than a throwaway line in a movie is the moral outrage that has been expressed by you and others.

Beautifully said.

 

[EricQelDroma]

Well, I was considering taking you up on your original offer (before you edited your response) so I will just say that in all your moral outrage, you are only seeing what you want to see in the responses before you, and no cohesive argument will cause you to understand anything beyond your perceived insult in those 2-3 words and the subsequent laughter they garnered.

Oh, and you can probably put the high horse away, because I am an adoptive father and am well aware of what that entails. And that is why the only thing I find more amusing than a throwaway line in a movie is the moral outrage that has been expressed by you and others.

You're welcome to call me "pathetic" all you like. I have broad shoulders, and I can bear that burden. I edited the response because my wording was apparently too aggressive for the mods. Hey, it's their site and their rules, and I'm not arguing that point.

And my "high horse" isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry to hear that the insult that those words contain isn't audible to you or to many of the other folks on here. I will continue to express my frustration and anger when I hear people making rude, insulting jokes about things that people cannot control and should not be asked to change. That includes race, sexuality, creed, and family construction.

But not tonight. I really do have to get to bed. Good night again. For real.

 

[Jennasis]

Jazz hands are the "big finish" I invented here on the DIS when a thread has run its course and has devolved into either name calling, hostility, pointless back and forth (or an inability for either side to budge)...when a thread needs to die an honorable and hilarious death we:

Works every time...Peace out.

 

[EMom]

I'm disappointed for many reasons and in many people. One being that we were really looking forward to seeing this movie. But hearing about this line made me realize that sitting there in a movie theater while everyone laughed it up would take a great deal of enjoyment out of the experience. And I hate being diddled out of seeing a good movie. I hate paying a chunk of change to see movie, only to have an adoption joke ruin it for me. Maybe when it hits RedBox. So I had decided DH could just go alone. He's usually fine with that.

He came in tonight, told me he was getting some time off work and wanted to know if DD and I would like to go see The Avengers. When I told him about the line (and yes, he knows his Thor background) he got the most awful look on his face and I knew the movie was now ruined for him too. He also said there was no way he would take DD (since she's unmotivated to see it anyway ) and risk the "joke" and the resulting crowd laughter hurting her. Who would set their kid up for that? My guess is that as word gets out, many parents of adopted kids will just forego the movie, because seeing an otherwise good movie is not worth the risk of possibly hurting their kids.

I used to say, "Disney loves a dead mother," because no one killed off more mothers than Disney movies. That always bugged me, but since I still had my mother as a child, it did me no harm. But I realized kids who had lost their moms might feel awful after many Disney movies.

At any rate, I promise you, the adoption "joke" would never have made it into the film had Joss Whedon's own children been adopted. I'd bet cash on that one.

 

[Lolsmum]

Is it seriously just the use of the term "adopted" that's upsetting people so much?

Had the line been something like "He's Jotun, not Asgardian" (or whatever the right terms are) would that have been OK?

The situation isn't that Loki is of the same race (and I'm talking something more akin to different species, not different human races here) and happened to be a bad seed. It's more akin to a demon being raised by angels who love him and do consider him family but his nature wins out anyway.

I can understand that the line might lead to some discussions, particularly in families with adopted children, but I don't think that's all bad. The idea that it leads to lasting hurt or ruins an otherwise enjoyable movie does seem overly sensitive to me, but perhaps some people are in a place where they are overly sensitive.

 

[bunkkinsmom]

Ok, I've read the whole thread.

You're welcome to call me "pathetic" all you like. I have broad shoulders, and I can bear that burden. I edited the response because my wording was apparently too aggressive for the mods. Hey, it's their site and their rules, and I'm not arguing that point.

And my "high horse" isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry to hear that the insult that those words contain isn't audible to you or to many of the other folks on here. I will continue to express my frustration and anger when I hear people making rude, insulting jokes about things that people cannot control and should not be asked to change. That includes race, sexuality, creed, and family construction.

But not tonight. I really do have to get to bed. Good night again. For real.

I guess who am I to judge if people are easily offended. However, I speak that from an interracial relationship and as the daughter of a man who is in a 25 year relationship with his "partner". So do I fit into the "family construction" category? Frankly, I don't get offended by flippant jokes on either of those subjects. I do, however, get offended by derogatory names (like the f one). And I get a little offended when people think I am in anything other than a normal "family construction" category. I know several families in my church that have adopted children that have resulted from foster care, and not one of them mentioned this to me. Although now I will ask just to see what they think.

IMHO, I think you mentioned your daughter is 7? It's PG-13. You took the risk of having to explain NUMEROUS things to her after the movie. My husband is a filmmaker, so my kids know the action isn't real, the death isn't real, etc etc. I always know that in an action movie I'm probably OK on PG-13 even though my youngest is 5. She already knows it's fake, she sees her daddy do it. HOWEVER, it is MY responsibility to explain things to all 3 of my under 13 kids if I take them to a PG-13 movie. So IMHO, I would take this opportunity to have a nice long discussion about the "joke" in question. A PP gave a great example of their discussion that worked for their kid. If you go into the talk offended, your kid will be offended to. If you go into the talk trying to explain, maybe they will understand why so many other people, INCLUDING THOSE WHO ARE IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS, are not offended.

Is it seriously just the use of the term "adopted" that's upsetting people so much?

Had the line been something like "He's Jotun, not Asgardian" (or whatever the right terms are) would that have been OK?

The situation isn't that Loki is of the same race (and I'm talking something more akin to different species, not different human races here) and happened to be a bad seed. It's more akin to a demon being raised by angels who love him and do consider him family but his nature wins out anyway.

I can understand that the line might lead to some discussions, particularly in families with adopted children, but I don't think that's all bad. The idea that it leads to lasting hurt or ruins an otherwise enjoyable movie does seem overly sensitive to me, but perhaps some people are in a place where they are overly sensitive.

Yes, well said.

Jazz Hands indeed.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

It's not easy being green.

 

[skater]

However, let me bottom line my feelings on the matter for you(since I have already invoked the jazz hands)....I really am sorry you and your kid's feelings were hurt. I'm sorry some other's were as well. I'm sorry it tarnished for you what was otherwise a stellar movie. I am. It bums me out that something so seemingly trivial (and hilarious IMO) may have ruined the experience for you and to be honest, when I fork out another $13 to go see it this week, I won't get nearly the same joy out of that line as I did the first time I watched it.

That said, it was still possibly the best movie I've ever seen and I hope Joss Whedon does the same outstanding job on the next one.

Thank you. While we may not agree on all the points in this thread, this is very nice. I think what has bugged me so much is the lack of empathy and the strong language used by some posters. Words like pathetic, amusing, silly point of view, outrage is ridiculous, etc. are argumentative and unnecessary. Of course a good argument on the DIS can be sort of fun, but adoption is such a part of my heart and soul, that I can get a little worked up . And when reading some of the posters' judgmental assertions that indicate its silly to be upset about that line, it irks the crap out of me. I appreciate your empathy despite your dissenting opinions.

 

[eliza61]

So let me say I have not read all 11 pages. My intention is not to insult anyone, any group.

1) I found nothing wrong with the quote at all. Worse, it is some thing I have said many times about my kids, my siblings, myself, my relatives and my dh. The implication was not that they are "bad" but that they did some thing or act in some way that is "different" then what we consider "normal".

2) I like to think that I am sensitive to others. I know some times I probably am not. As many know I'm not a fan of disney's song of the south but over time and talking to others, I'm probably not as insulted by the movies. It will never be one of my choices to watch and I will never show it to any kids I know but I just don't get up in arms over it.

3) some times a movie is just a movie. I can't begin to pick apart every scene and every line in a dialoge to make sure it isn't offensive to some group. I'd never be able to watch a movie, a tv show or listen to a song. Two broke girls is one of my favorite shows and lord knows the entire 30 mins is nothing but off colored, bad taste jokes. I'm Black and love any thing Dave Chappel or Medea (Tyler Perry) put out and Lord knows they poke fun at black folk.

4) Avengers was the most fun I had at the movies in quite a while and for once a movie I thought worth the 10 bucks admission. I plan on going again this weekend and it's one of the few I plan on buying when it comes out on dvd.

5) everyone is entitled to determine what they feel is insulting or demeaning to them. I'm more of the "power of the purse" type of gal. If the line really upset you, simply don't go see any more of chris weldons movies.

 

[Lintasare]

So let me say I have not read all 11 pages. My intention is not to insult anyone, any group.


5) everyone is entitled to determine what they feel is insulting or demeaning to them. I'm more of the "power of the purse" type of gal. If the line really upset you, simply don't go see any more of chris weldons movies.

Joss Whedon

 

[EMom]

So let me say I have not read all 11 pages. My intention is not to insult anyone, any group.

1) I found nothing wrong with the quote at all. Worse, it is some thing I have said many times about my kids, my siblings, myself, my relatives and my dh. The implication was not that they are "bad" but that they did some thing or act in some way that is "different" then what we consider "normal".

Please do not take this as a lecture. Your post was thoughtful and I wanted to comment on this one point. I would ask that you and others reconsider the use of "you must be adopted" or "what are you.....adopted?" etc., to illustrate that someone is different or other than normal. I cringe every time I hear someone say that and hope my child is not within earshot. I don't lecture them, because they are making the remark innocently enough. It's just something our culture does. But it's something I believe our culture should rethink. It reinforces a negative stereotype whether people mean it or not. It says that adopted people are different and don't fit. Is that the message we want to send? Especially to children? So to those who toss this phrase around, please think about how it might sound to an adopted child's ears, because if you use it at home, your children WILL repeat it out in the world.

This is not directed at you, but is a comment in general. I realized last night that what is most bothersome to me may not even be the movie line, "He's adopted," but the audience reaction. Why does that line cause such laughter? Because it plays to every stereotype and prejudice our society has regarding adoption. The laughter is the part that probably would hurt kids the most. Because to them, it feels as if the crowd is laughing AT THEM, on some level. At the core of who they are. And that can be painful. More than that, it makes me wonder why adoption as the explanation/excuse for a character's (major) flaws is such a cause for laughter.

 

[eliza61]

Joss Whedon

Thanks, that's me. wrong again.

Please do not take this as a lecture. Your post was thoughtful and I wanted to comment on this one point. I would ask that you and others reconsider the use of "you must be adopted" or "what are you.....adopted?" etc., to illustrate that someone is different or other than normal. I cringe every time I hear someone say that and hope my child is not within earshot. I don't lecture them, because they are making the remark innocently enough. It's just something our culture does. But it's something I believe our culture should rethink. It reinforces a negative stereotype whether people mean it or not. It says that adopted people are different and don't fit. Is that the message we want to send? Especially to children? So to those who toss this phrase around, please think about how it might sound to an adopted child's ears, because if you use it at home, your children WILL repeat it out in the world.

This is not directed at you, but is a comment in general. I realized last night that what is most bothersome to me may not even be the movie line, "He's adopted," but the audience reaction. Why does that line cause such laughter? Because it plays to every stereotype and prejudice our society has regarding adoption. The laughter is the part that probably would hurt kids the most. Because to them, it feels as if the crowd is laughing AT THEM, on some level. At the core of who they are. And that can be painful. More than that, it makes me wonder why adoption as the explanation/excuse for a character's (major) flaws is such a cause for laughter.

No problem. Honestly, I've never given it much thought when I say it generally because I do use it at home basically with my kids, husband and with my siblings. My youngest brother was such a different kid growing up that we said it all the time. He's never mentioned if it hurt him. Take that with a grain of salt because I grew up in the 60's and unfortunately many topics were taboo.

Not sure that I think we laugh because of negative connetations, I think we laugh because everyone knows how it feels to "march left" when everyone else is "marching right". I think some times it's good to laugh at ourselves.

thanks for your thoughts Etmom, I would have never considered your points and definitely gave me some thing to think about.

 

[MaraChristine]

Did this scene bother anyone else?

Just another way to discriminate and marginalize adopted persons. You know, it's bad enough we can't possess our own birth certificates, medical history, know our ethnicities, cultures, family trees, many of us permanently prevented from ever knowing our biological families due to sealed legal documents. This is inhumane and in the 21st century! Oh, and some of us are having a very hard time getting passports after 9/11 due to the amended birth certificates (falsified, fake ones) we were issued upon our adoption. Some international adoptees are being deported. Ya, you go Marvel, Paramount, and Disney Studios!!! Cheap slams for cheap laughs...I wonder how much laughter there would be if he said: "He's Jewish." "He's Black." "He's Gay."

 

[skater]

So let me say I have not read all 11 pages. My intention is not to insult anyone, any group.

1) I found nothing wrong with the quote at all. Worse, it is some thing I have said many times about my kids, my siblings, myself, my relatives and my dh. The implication was not that they are "bad" but that they did some thing or act in some way that is "different" then what we consider "normal".

2) I like to think that I am sensitive to others. I know some times I probably am not. As many know I'm not a fan of disney's song of the south but over time and talking to others, I'm probably not as insulted by the movies. It will never be one of my choices to watch and I will never show it to any kids I know but I just don't get up in arms over it.

3) some times a movie is just a movie. I can't begin to pick apart every scene and every line in a dialoge to make sure it isn't offensive to some group. I'd never be able to watch a movie, a tv show or listen to a song. Two broke girls is one of my favorite shows and lord knows the entire 30 mins is nothing but off colored, bad taste jokes. I'm Black and love any thing Dave Chappel or Medea (Tyler Perry) put out and Lord knows they poke fun at black folk.

4) Avengers was the most fun I had at the movies in quite a while and for once a movie I thought worth the 10 bucks admission. I plan on going again this weekend and it's one of the few I plan on buying when it comes out on dvd.

5) everyone is entitled to determine what they feel is insulting or demeaning to them. I'm more of the "power of the purse" type of gal. If the line really upset you, simply don't go see any more of chris weldons movies.

Thank you for your thoughts. This is a respectful way to express a dissenting view on this topic without belittling people who might be upset about it. While I don't always agree with you, I always enjoy reading your opinions on controversial topics, and this post has upped my respect for you.

 

[DizBelle]

You are so right. Thanks for this.

I think it's especially difficult to impress upon people just how ubiquitous and pervasive these cliches are, and how strongly they can affect people, whether children or not.

My daughter is Asian in a predominantly Caucasian area. She's picked up on the "I'm not blonde, my skin is dark, my eyes are strange" vibe since she was two. We don't let her watch a ton of TV, and our whole extended family has been gung-ho on the adoption thing from day one. These attitudes are everywhere and it's very hard to pick up on them until you're the target.

Before my daughter came to us, I thought that people who pushed for an African American Disney Princess were being overly sensitive. After all, I thought Mr. T. was the coolest thing ever when I was a kid, and I'm white and he's black. It wasn't a problem for me! I didn't realize that I also hadn't had every single image in our society telling me that my color, my looks, my hair, my style, my clothes, my speech, my family was undesirable and inferior. Now I see how important it is for children's self-image for them to have characters and playthings that reflect their reality in a positive way. It's not something a four-year-old should have to "get over" when society is telling them that they're different and therefore bad.

Different just means different. It doesn't mean bad.

The fact of the matter is that being adopted does make you different in your family. If breast cancer runs in the females in the family, the adopted daughter does not have increased chances of developing breast cancer like a biological daughter does. You can't say that an adopted child is just like a biological child because it just isn't so. This DOES NOT mean that an adopted child is inferior or less loved than a biological child. Emotionally, they are just as much part of the family as any of the blood relations. Physically, though, it just isn't so.

If an adopted child give family medical information to their doctor for their adopted family, that could lead to confusion and mis-diagnosis and be a dangerous situation. The adopted child has to know the difference for their own well being.

 

[DizBelle]

On another note, if you're taking your 6, 7, 8 year old to a movie that is rated PG-13, you shouldn't be too surprised if there are topics (like jokes) that may confuse them and even hurt them. It was your choice to take them to the movie. Don't blame the movie maker.

For your reference:
PG-13 — Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some Material May Be Inappropriate For Children Under 13. A PG-13 rating is a sterner warning by the Rating Board to parents to determine whether their children under age 13 should view the motion picture, as some material might not be suited for them.