All Star Suites... [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

YoHo

12-31-2005, 05:22 PM

Yeah, but this?

WOW, that's COOL!!!! I didn't really realize the advantages/fun/excitement of staying on grounds until they built the Value resorts and I could AFFORD to stay there. I think these will be a great addition for larger families who want to stay at Disney but cannot afford the more expensive resorts. Kudos to Disney for making it possible for larger families to enjoy their resorts. (I know, I know, you stay on property, you spend money on property--so its not totally alturistic. But it's still cool!!! :cool1: ;) )

No offense joshsmom, but the Allstars have absolutly nothing to do with the advantages/fun/excitment of staying on the grounds.

Waking up, taking a stroll on the beach with a view of Cinderella's castle. That's real Disney. Hoping a boat to Epcot center, real Disney. And don't get me started about the architecture. Heck, even some of the moderates are real Disney.

I know plenty of people who stay at the All stars and get the full Disney experience, but none of that experience is to be had at the facility itself. shoved away in a remote corner where you won't bother the guests that Disney really cares about, the thicker pocketbooks.

Anyway enough ranting, anyone know the price per night?

I wonder how ti compares to the standard Poly room that sleeps 5.

peter11435

12-31-2005, 05:46 PM

No offense joshsmom, but the Allstars have absolutly nothing to do with the advantages/fun/excitment of staying on the grounds.

Waking up, taking a stroll on the beach with a view of Cinderella's castle. That's real Disney. Hoping a boat to Epcot center, real Disney. And don't get me started about the architecture. Heck, even some of the moderates are real Disney.

I know plenty of people who stay at the All stars and get the full Disney experience, but none of that experience is to be had at the facility itself. shoved away in a remote corner where you won't bother the guests that Disney really cares about, the thicker pocketbooks.

Wow, that post just proves you don't get it.

theheys

12-31-2005, 07:03 PM

[QUOTE=YoHo]Yeah, but this?

No offense joshsmom, but the Allstars have absolutly nothing to do with the advantages/fun/excitment of staying on the grounds.

Waking up, taking a stroll on the beach with a view of Cinderella's castle. That's real Disney. Hoping a boat to Epcot center, real Disney. And don't get me started about the architecture. Heck, even some of the moderates are real Disney.

I know plenty of people who stay at the All stars and get the full Disney experience, but none of that experience is to be had at the facility itself. shoved away in a remote corner where you won't bother the guests that Disney really cares about, the thicker pocketbooks.

Anyway enough ranting, anyone know the price per night?

I wonder how ti compares to the standard Poly room that sleeps 5.[/QUOTE

K.....N.....O.....B

If you have to start a note with "NO OFFENSE"............................

mrsR123

12-31-2005, 10:40 PM

Real Disney isn't giant fiberglass structures.

The suites are a great idea. The All-Stars are just sad.

As for The Poly, it's unquestionably beautiful. But even those rooms are a tight squeeze if baby #3 is over pre-school age. (And two baths are nearly a necessity for five people.)

Regardless, I'd take a cabin at the campground over the All-Stars anyday. Better theming, location, and transportation (even with the two-tiered internal transport system).

peter11435

12-31-2005, 11:29 PM

Real Disney isn't giant fiberglass structures.

Then I guess Cinderella Castle is not "real Disney."

RobInBigKC

12-31-2005, 11:43 PM

Yeah, but this?

No offense joshsmom, but the Allstars have absolutly nothing to do with the advantages/fun/excitment of staying on the grounds.

Waking up, taking a stroll on the beach with a view of Cinderella's castle. That's real Disney. Hoping a boat to Epcot center, real Disney. And don't get me started about the architecture. Heck, even some of the moderates are real Disney.

I know plenty of people who stay at the All stars and get the full Disney experience, but none of that experience is to be had at the facility itself. shoved away in a remote corner where you won't bother the guests that Disney really cares about, the thicker pocketbooks.

Anyway enough ranting, anyone know the price per night?

I wonder how ti compares to the standard Poly room that sleeps 5.

I have never seen or read a more snobbish post on any of these boards.

There most certainly ARE advantages, fun, and excitement to be had staying at ANY WDW resort, even if it is a value resort. Even us peons still get full use of the Disney transportation system (including your precious boats to Epcot), package delivery to our rooms, the occasional towel animal, mickey soaps and shampoos, Disney theming, the ability to "charge" items to our room key, the ability to send family members back to the rooms during the day for a quick nap or swim, and probably a dozen other things that I can't think of at the moment -- all of which we would not get if we were staying offsite and all of which are advantages and some of which are fun and exciting.

The fact is until CBR was built, there was absolutely no way I could have ever been able to stay on Disney property. And now, with the Values, I can take my kids to WDW and stay on Disney property for about the same price as most other vacation spots we would go to so Disney becomes an option (sometimes chosen, sometimes not) for all of our vacation trips.

Personally, other than possibly a CR Tower room with a view of the monorails whizzing in and out, I can't think of another resort at WDW that my kids would rather stay at than ASSp -- certainly not the GF or the Poly. Maybe it IS because of our middle-class background but my DS's would much rather be running around on a giant oversized football field or swimming in a baseball-themed pool than taking in the decor of a beautiful lobby, watching fireworks from our room, or walking along the beach of a lake.

I don't, and never will, hack on those who enjoy staying in the Deluxe and Moderate resorts but why must you hammer on us value folks "shoved away in a remote corner far away from" you important Disney guests "with your thicker pocketbooks".

I used to enjoy visiting the other non-value resorts at WDW but if the majority of the guests in those resorts share the same opinions that you do, I'm not sure I want to expose my kids to such attitudes and I certainly (honestly) wouldn't want to bother the guests of such resorts. (Also makes it easy for me to decide to do a character meal in the parks instead of at one of the deluxe resorts.)

-- Rob

RobInBigKC

12-31-2005, 11:46 PM

Then I guess Cinderella Castle is not "real Disney."

You mean, it's not really built out of solid stone? I'll have to dig out my pictures and take a closer look! :rotfl:

kydisneyfans

01-01-2006, 01:16 PM

"Real" Disney to our child is not Cinderella's castle, as he hates princesses, but the Woody and Buzz icons at ASMO.

"Real" Disney is seeing families with small children filling up hotel rooms on site at a price real working families can afford-I personally felt more "Disneyish" at the values than ANYWHERE else on site.

Deluxes seem like "Resorts" and seem more sterile than the values-the Grand Floridian does not seem "Disney" to me. Moderates seem more like a Holiday Inn that just happens to be on Disney property.

I personally like to hear hundreds of kids frolicking in a pool with a Dalmation statue overlooking it at 11 PM-than spending $200.00 on a wine and steak meal at an upscale restaurant on site.

We may be weird-but when the family is asked where they want to stay on site-the answer is always Pop or ASMO-plus it gives us more money to spend during the trip and for future trips.

JMO

YoHo

01-01-2006, 05:01 PM

I have never seen or read a more snobbish post on any of these boards.

I find that unlikely, especially if you're a regular reader of the News and Rumors board, but I digress.

The fact is until CBR was built, there was absolutely no way I could have ever been able to stay on Disney property. And now, with the Values, I can take my kids to WDW and stay on Disney property for about the same price as most other vacation spots we would go to so Disney becomes an option (sometimes chosen, sometimes not) for all of our vacation trips.

I don't know how old you are, how your financials are or when your financials became what they are, but I find this unlikely.

It's well established with a quick look at the rack rate prices that when Disney only had the Poly, the Contemp and the Campground (and the Golf resort) That's it's prices were significantly lower then they were at the time CBR was built. They went up faster then inflation. To a large extent, Disney bilked people into thinking they were getting a deal with CBR when all they were doing was giving them less then they used to get.

I've talked to some Disney employees that indicated that when CBR was built, most of the long term imagineers and employees were offended by what they had created. It was so against everything WDW was supposed to be.

If the Caribbean Beach Resort offended the Imagineers that built WDW and DL, think of how their stomachs must churn at the site of the poop century.

Anyway, I've roused enough rabble. If you want to read some opinions on the resorts, I suggest you do a search on resort caste system on this board. I'm not going to repost the arguments.
I've no problem with Disney offering a better priced hotel room, that doesn't mean I should accept the abominations known as the values as the best they could do.

And I'd still like my question answered.

Sarangel

01-01-2006, 09:32 PM

YoHo,

I know you don't like the All Stars, but they are better (IMO) than staying off-site. I also have to disagree with you about the whole "on-site" experience not being extended to the AS resorts. Even tho' busses aren't the Monorail it *is* more convenient than driving on-site, parking, taking a tram, etc. Remember that different people like different things.

We have established (in the glory days of the Baron, etc) that Disney created a caste system when it began building the moderates, unfortunately you can't go back in time and un-create it. It exists and I don't see the need to denigrate those who stay there - in many ways they're better than the self-entitled, why-won't-you-give-me-what-I-want-for-free guests that we see so often in the Deluxe resorts.

And just so you know I'm not ignoring you, no, I don't know the price per night.

Sarangel

peter11435

01-01-2006, 09:39 PM

I've talked to some Disney employees that indicated that when CBR was built, most of the long term imagineers and employees were offended by what they had created. It was so against everything WDW was supposed to be.

If the Caribbean Beach Resort offended the Imagineers that built WDW and DL, think of how their stomachs must churn at the site of the poop century.

While that may be true it is purely speculation on your part and most likely made up by those who told you.

*NikkiBell*

01-01-2006, 10:10 PM

[QUOTE=kydisneyfans
Deluxes seem like "Resorts" and seem more sterile than the values-the Grand Floridian does not seem "Disney" to me. Moderates seem more like a Holiday Inn that just happens to be on Disney property.

IJMO[/QUOTE]

I think this comment is 100% false. Have you stayed at Port Orleans French Quarter? What Holiday Inn has its own lake with boats that take you to another area (Downtown Disney)? Reminds me of the deluxes' transportation options. POFQ is gorgeous, sprawling with beautiful decor and gardens. The courtyards all have sparkling fountains and cobblestone streets. There's carriage rides, live Jazz music nightly, and more. If there's a Holiday Inn that could match up to POFQ, I'd be shocked.

YoHo

01-01-2006, 10:51 PM

Sara, joshsmom, everyone, I had no intention of denegrating posters. I think those who know me, know I'm more concerned with what Disney should be. Of course we all have to deal with what Disney is and that includes the fact that the Deluxes have been priced out of reasonablness. We have to deal wih the values, that doesn't mean we have to accept them and I won't call them part of being in "Disney" even if they are part of being in Disney(tm).

RobInBigKC

01-02-2006, 03:08 AM

It's well established with a quick look at the rack rate prices that when Disney only had the Poly, the Contemp and the Campground (and the Golf resort) That's it's prices were significantly lower then they were at the time CBR was built. They went up faster then inflation. To a large extent, Disney bilked people into thinking they were getting a deal with CBR when all they were doing was giving them less then they used to get.
Could be. Maybe I fell into the Disney marketing trap. All I know for sure is that when I was a kid and the CR, the Poly, and the Golf Resort were the only resorts available, the prices were out of reach of my parents' budget. We used to dream of being able to stay at one of the "semi-official" hotels on Disney property such as the HoJo. When I started taking my own kids in 1997, we could have stayed at a moderate (CBR) or a value but the kids chose the value (came down to only a question of sports theme vs. nicer pools in a 5 year old boy's eyes). Now that my immediate family is up to myself, DW, and 4 DS's, the only place we can stay onsite is a value (if we want the opportunity to return on any sort of semiregular basis) -- anything higher and WDW would be a once a decade treat or the kids would be hearing "no, you can't have that ice cream", etc., all the time during our stay.

I've talked to some Disney employees that indicated that when CBR was built, most of the long term imagineers and employees were offended by what they had created. It was so against everything WDW was supposed to be. If the Caribbean Beach Resort offended the Imagineers that built WDW and DL, think of how their stomachs must churn at the site of the poop century.

Unfortunately, Walt is obviously long gone so there is no way for sure to know what his vision was. IMO, the value resorts WERE part of his plan. See Walt's "Florida film" recorded on October 27, 1966, a little over one month before his death. Walt says in that film, "We’re now developing a master plan that encompasses the theme park and all the facilities around it that will serve the tourist: hotels, motels, and a variety of recreational activity. In fact, just this little area alone is five times the size of Disneyland in California."

He obviously was referring to WDW itself (not the area outside of WDW that he didn't control) and note that he referred to BOTH hotels and motels. Remember that hotels and motels were very much different things back in the 1960s (and before).

The sketch below also shows references to an area of hotels where the CR, the Poly, and the GF are today (although initial plans were for an Asian hotel to be on the plot of land that the GF now sits on) near what would become the MK and an area of camps and MOTELS farther out (like the values are today).

http://www.wdwinfo.com/photopost/data/500/102160WDW_Plan_Sketch-med.jpg

If you want to read some opinions on the resorts, I suggest you do a search on resort caste system on this board. I'm not going to repost the arguments.
I tried to do this but got too many hits on threads where people meant to type the word "castle". LOL.

I was able to identify a few from their titles, however, and read them. Obviously, there is a caste system and the mods and deluxes do get additional benefits that the values don't and I have no problem with either one of those facts.

My earlier post was to say that, IMO, your blanket statement that there aren't advantages/fun/excitement at the Values was/is incorrect. I'm sure the a/f/e at a deluxe or mod is of a different type and of a different level than it is at a value.

However, a "We're staying at WDW feel" is still there at the values. If it wasn't, my family would still be staying off-site (thus probably giving us bigger rooms for the same amount of money or the same size rooms for less money) just as we did in the 1970s and 1980s.

And I'd still like my question answered.
I don't know what the Value suites are priced at. I don't think anyone does except for the few families that have been able to stay in them. My GUESS is somewhere from 85% to 115% of the cost of two stand-alone value rooms.

the Deluxes have been priced out of reasonablness.
Something we agree on. Although, if Disney can fill the deluxe rooms at the prices they're asking, why not have their prices set at that point? Sadly, I don't think I will ever be able to stay in one (without winning a sweepstakes of some sort) with the price structure the way it is but I have no problem with others being able to.

-- Rob

YoHo

01-02-2006, 01:21 PM

mrsR123

01-02-2006, 06:11 PM

I don't disagree that Walt wanted a lower priced option I think there should be one. I thinkthe current values however do not represent anything like real Disney imagineering and excellence. I wanted them to do it right, not just do it.

That is perfectly stated.

pedro2112

01-03-2006, 01:33 AM

YoHo

01-03-2006, 11:39 AM

They could have used the original tiered approach where each Hotel contained 3 distinct levels of rooms on the same complex. The same plan that they brought back for Animal Kingdom and was nixed as being too expensive to build.

Contemp was supposed to have the Tower (highest price) Garden Wings (moderate) Courtyard (value)

Back during WDW planning, Imagineering and Disney realized they didn't have the resources to pull that off, so they concentrated on building the best parts of the resorts as well as they could with the intention of adding on when they could.

They brought in outside companies to do the lower cost options.

All was fine and when Epcot was built they started making plans, but then Eisner showed up and the idea that the poor guests should be lumped in with the rich guests offended his park avenue sensibilities, so they were shoved off.

DisneyKidds

01-03-2006, 12:32 PM

They could have used the original tiered approach where each Hotel contained 3 distinct levels of rooms on the same complex. The same plan that they brought back for Animal Kingdom and was nixed as being too expensive to build.
Careful with that one Yoho. Was that ever really a plan, or was that AV's idea of how Mods and Values could have been done and still have been "Disney"? I remember the thread where he laid out his idea for the African Village hotel, but I seem to recall that as being a "how could they have done it" idea, not a "this was what they were planning on doing, but didn't" kind of thing.

I'll see if I can find the thread.

Oh, and as for that Contemporary....weren't the wings just a cheap grab at increased occupancy ;).

Another Voice

01-03-2006, 12:44 PM

Oh, and as for that Contemporary....weren't the wings just a cheap grab at increased occupancy
Both the Garden Wings and the Courtyard (to have located where the convention center now sits) exist on plans from 1969.

The original concept for WDW was for a resort - that meant all levels of price points, including motels. Each guest would be able to enjoy ALL of WDW, and pick the accomidation that best suited their need.

The concept of "resort tiers" where the resorts themselves were segregated (and the only difference between rooms was "parking lot view") was brought in by Michael Eisner. His primary interest was with the large, deluxe hotels catering to free spending vacationeers. The Moderates and Values were only ecomonic entities designed to siphon people off Internation Drive. And yes, there were intentionally set as far out of the way as possible as not degrade the high rent district. It's not the people at the Grand Floridian looking down at the people at the All Stars - it's Disney themselves.

Not that I disagree with you, but what could have been done different and still kept the price well under $100.00/night at todays prices?The company that claims they are the single greatest creative force in the world, the touchstone for imagination, the wizards that create "magic" for millions every year - and the best they can come up with is three tons of fiberglass spelling out "Do The Funky Chicken"?

Even I think they are capable of more than that had they wished to try. But, they didn't try because they figured you're not worth it. You'd spend the money to stay at the place no matter what they did, so they did the least effort possible.

peter11435

01-03-2006, 12:49 PM

It's not the people at the Grand Floridian looking down at the people at the All Stars - it's Disney themselves.

That’s a rather bold (and slightly foolish) comment to make. Especially considering the values are more profitable than the deluxes.

Another Voice

01-03-2006, 12:52 PM

If you knew what Disney management really thinks about the three-visit-a-year pin trading crowd - it would make your snow globe boil.

peter11435

01-03-2006, 01:05 PM

If you knew what Disney management really thinks about the three-visit-a-year pin trading crowd - it would make your snow globe boil.

And we're supposed to believe that you know what Disney management really thinks about them. Please tell me how you are so priliged to have all of this inside information about every facit of the Walt Disney Company. So since you know all of this who does disney prefer, the once in a life time spend all their money crowd, or the cheap locals.

YoHo

01-03-2006, 01:46 PM

I'd like proof that the Values are more profitable.

peter11435

01-03-2006, 02:11 PM

I'd like proof that the Values are more profitable.

Well the fact that in the last 10 years Disney (a profit driven company in your opinon) has constructed 8640 value resort rooms and only about 1200 deluxe rooms. That should be proof enough.

All Aboard

01-03-2006, 04:24 PM

I don't know about the margins at each resort. But, on the numbers built - it's not quite as extreme as 8640 v 1200. Since the 8640 includes All Star Sports, then you have to include the Wilderness Lodge since they both opened the same year.

So, 728 WL rooms; 1,308 AKL rooms and 378 Boardwalk Inn rooms total 2,414 deluxe rooms built.

I don't think you can that metric alone and conclude that the values are more profitable. It makes you ask "if they weren't, then why did they build so many more than they did Deluxes in the past 11 years?" But, the answer to that question may simply be that perhaps Disney thought that they were fully saturated in the Deluxe category and that the unserviced market was the lower price point - and that's where they could steal market share. Notice too, that the bulk of the deluxe rooms built during the past 11 years are the cheapest rooms to rent in that category.

YoHo

01-03-2006, 04:29 PM

Based on margin, I'd say it simply takes more Value rooms to generate the same profit as those fewer Deluxe rooms. And as AA stated, maybe they thought it was an underserved market.

In either case, you're making a pretty far reaching statment there.

doubletrouble_vb

01-03-2006, 06:08 PM

I'd have to look at this and say...they didn't complete Pop Century so that makes me question how profitable these motels are. And the numbers cited don't include the DVC units.

It would be interesting to know what hotel classification generates the most income for Disney including the margins on food the guests buy, the trinkets, and the nights accomodations.

YoHo

01-03-2006, 06:29 PM

I would guess that DVC makes the most upfront profit. Of course that's at the expense of long term profit, but such is Disney in 2006.

I would bet the Deluxes with their higher rack rates and popular resturants (that pull guests from other, cheaper, resorts) are likely the most profitable on a per guest basis.

Costumesaremylife

01-03-2006, 07:05 PM

I'd love more info on the Suites. I love the All star movies and Pop century. I love kitsch, cheese, crazyiness and all the fun of those hotels. I may not be able to hop on a monorail, but that doesn't bother me.

Lesleyluvdisney

01-03-2006, 07:18 PM

yeah, well when it stops costing us about $3200 just to get there...then..we'll maybe start staying at the "moderate-deluxe" resorts. as it is our trip to the "all stars" this year has cost us $3900 as opposed to the $6800 for WL.

Well said Rob!!

Les
x

airlarry!

01-03-2006, 07:42 PM

Please tell me how you are so priliged to have all of this inside information about every facit of the Walt Disney Company.

You aren't by any chance a new poster to this board? Has the search function been disabled again? The answers to this and many more questions you have are found in a treasure trove of archived posts...

pedro2112

01-03-2006, 11:34 PM

The original concept for WDW was for a resort - that meant all levels of price points, including motels. Each guest would be able to enjoy ALL of WDW, and pick the accomidation that best suited their need.

The concept of "resort tiers" where the resorts themselves were segregated (and the only difference between rooms was "parking lot view") was brought in by Michael Eisner.

This is what I am not understanding. I've seen the plans posted above.. it is clear that Disney's original plans included "motels" in addition to the hotels, and those "motels" were at the fringes of WDW property. So how is that different than what was eventually built.. the values?

The company that claims they are the single greatest creative force in the world, the touchstone for imagination, the wizards that create "magic" for millions every year - and the best they can come up with is three tons of fiberglass spelling out "Do The Funky Chicken"?

Even I think they are capable of more than that had they wished to try. But, they didn't try because they figured you're not worth it. You'd spend the money to stay at the place no matter what they did, so they did the least effort possible.

I've never stayed at a value resort. Nevertheless, I still don't see what they could have done other than build a motel 6 with Disney themeing to compete with the cheapo motels out there for less than $100.00/night. Is your main complaint the themeing? Or is it something else?

mrsR123

01-04-2006, 12:28 AM

The All-Stars are not themed. They are decorated. Their population density is too high. Their service is too low even at the price point presented. THey have been positioned out in the hinterlands, yet touted as Nirvana. They contribute to the need for decidedly unmagical bus transport. They don't put a person into the middle of a story. They don't evoke another time, place or possibility. They keep people from understanding what real Disney is, but they keep people from staying off-site.

Some of these issues might have come out the same, others might have not if someone had tried to do it well.

I'm no Imagineer, but get the rights to make it a Lego village where the boxiness wouldn't be a detractor, theme it to Honey I Shrunk the Resort and make giant icons that make sense, theme it to the Streets of America backlot-- there are plenty of real apartments in NYC that are about the size of an All Stars room.

I don't knock folks on a budget, but they deserve real Disney.

Planogirl

01-04-2006, 02:25 AM

I personally don't see what's so horrible about staying offsite. I prefer driving to buses and I can stay in places that are closer to most of the parks than the icon trimmed budget resorts and also have more amenities. But I've always said to each their own.

And I do get "it". I just personally don't get it at the Values. To those who do, good for you!

peter11435

01-04-2006, 08:18 AM

You aren't by any chance a new poster to this board? Has the search function been disabled again? The answers to this and many more questions you have are found in a treasure trove of archived posts...

I have been on these forums for a long time. Reading and posting for about 5 years now. I have never once heard AV provide any reason why we should believe him except for this cheap I have sources type of comments.

peter11435

01-04-2006, 08:27 AM

I'd have to look at this and say...they didn't complete Pop Century so that makes me question how profitable these motels are. And the numbers cited don't include the DVC units.

True but the reason they didn't finish pop (yet) is because of the downturn that came after 9/11 (although I am sure AV will say there was another reason). The fact that no deluxe resort has been built, opened, or even rumored in this time kills your theory. As for DVC resorts they are an entirely different situation and ARE NOT deluxe resorts. If the All-Stars were not profitable they would have never started building another 5760 value rooms.

Obviously as Yoho states the deluxe resorts make more money per room than the values (that doesn't take a rocket scientist). And obviously the deluxe resorts make more money per guest (again...well that doesn't even take a used car salesman). However a value resort costs about the same or less to construct as a much smaller (in number of rooms) deluxe resorts. They then cost less to operate. Thus forget how much each guest is spending or the amount per room. The fact is that the value resorts have a higher profit margin than the big guys.

doubletrouble_vb

01-04-2006, 09:46 AM

The All-Stars are not themed. They are decorated.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they are unthemed. All Star Music was nicely themed. If you walked through the Jazz section...especially at night...the landscaping evokes the same feeling of New Orleans as POFQ. The Rock n' Roll section has the theme of a 1950's diner. I didn't walk through Country fare so I can't say about that.

Now if you said POP fails to take you away to another place I'd have to agree.

Peter11435...DVC is certainly not deluxe except where they were built connected to a deluxe but SSR and OKW do fit into a slot between moderate and deluxe. They have more amenities than a moderate and fewer than a deluxe. If it was just the 9/11 downturn that was holding Disney back from building more values they would have started completing Pop Century.

I think Disney realizes that while the values are pulling people out of hotels off site they are also pulling people out of the moderates and possibly out of deluxes. Using DVC'ers as an example...some of them choose not to stay Fri & Sat nights on points. But they are Disney obsessed so they want to stay on property. Whereas they might have stayed in a moderate they happily suffer through a couple days at All Stars or POP before checking into their not-deluxe accomodations with DVC. Sure that may bump up the profits at All Stars but what does that do for the overall bottom line for on-campus hotels?

peter11435

01-04-2006, 10:43 AM

Peter11435...DVC is certainly not deluxe except where they were built connected to a deluxe but SSR and OKW do fit into a slot between moderate and deluxe. They have more amenities than a moderate and fewer than a deluxe. If it was just the 9/11 downturn that was holding Disney back from building more values they would have started completing Pop Century.

While they may have the amenities between a moderate and a deluxe they can't really be compared to the other resorts because they have an entirely different pricing stucture and there profit is very very different.

As for finishing pop, attendance is starting to return to pre-9/11 levels. However not enough to (yet) justify adding another 2880 rooms every night.

Bstanley

01-04-2006, 12:04 PM

I have been on these forums for a long time. Reading and posting for about 5 years now. I have never once heard AV provide any reason why we should believe him except for this cheap I have sources type of comments.

???

Are you saying that you are unaware that in the past AV worked for the Mouse at a level that brought him in contact with various levels of senior management at Disney?

Or that you doubt the claim?

Bstanley

01-04-2006, 12:22 PM

The fact is that the value resorts have a higher profit margin than the big guys.

Source Please?

This flies in the face of the experience of the rest of the hotel industry in the US. A typical upscale hotel has a 15-20% profit margin (I'm sure Disney is better - their occupancy is through the roof compared to most resorts). A typical limited service hotel has a 5-10% profit margin (ditto).

So outside of Disney a typical 'motel' has one half to one third of the profit of a 'resort'. Basically - there's money in them thar Spas.

PS. Sorry - Hospitality.net statistics for 2004.

peter11435

01-04-2006, 02:41 PM

???

Are you saying that you are unaware that in the past AV worked for the Mouse at a level that brought him in contact with various levels of senior management at Disney?

Or that you doubt the claim?

I don't remember ever hearing that. However that said I caution everyone that anyone can post anything on the internet.

peter11435

01-04-2006, 02:44 PM

Source Please?

This flies in the face of the experience of the rest of the hotel industry in the US. A typical upscale hotel has a 15-20% profit margin (I'm sure Disney is better - their occupancy is through the roof compared to most resorts). A typical limited service hotel has a 5-10% profit margin (ditto).

So outside of Disney a typical 'motel' has one half to one third of the profit of a 'resort'. Basically - there's money in them thar Spas.

PS. Sorry - Hospitality.net statistics for 2004.

The key word there is typical. Disney is not a typical location. The values have extremely high occupancy rates. To to mention most limited service motels in this country do not have anywhere near 3000 rooms. The money is in the numbers.

DisneyGirl4188

01-04-2006, 02:45 PM

I would just like to say that I do take offense at the "value bashing" that is going on. I loved ASMo. The service was great and I never once felt that I was "lower class". I think that they are wonderfully THEMED too. One of my favorite things to do was take pictures of the icons. These to me feel even MORE Disney than say the GF.

Personally, I think that some of the other resorts are stuffy, while the values are fun. Don't get me wrong, I think that each resort has a charm about it, but I much prefer the values. I don't feel like lower class or undesirable because I stay there. I also don't feel like I am out in the middle of nowhere. We did drive to the parks, but it only took a few minutes (less than 5 to AK). When staying on at the Boardwalk, BC, YC, etc they all share busses, so it isn't just a value thing.

While I do save money by staying at a value, that means that I have more money to spend elsewhere. I think that Disney realizes that too. All I use my room for is sleeping and showering, so to pay over $300.00 a night is crazy (to me).

I do plan on staying at POP for our next trip, although I could just as easy pick AKL or POFQ. I like the Mr. Potato Head and Roger Rabbit. Those icons are Disney to me.

All Aboard

01-04-2006, 02:47 PM

With all due respect, you can caution all you want. But, Another Voice does happen to know what the heck he is talking about and rarely (if ever) embelishes to make a point.

peter11435

01-04-2006, 03:06 PM

With all due respect, you can caution all you want. But, Another Voice does happen to know what the heck he is talking about and rarely (if ever) embelishes to make a point.

How do you know he knows what he is talking about. Without having "inside information" yourself there would be no way you could prove him right or wrong. The only reason you have to believe him is that you choose to. And say what you want but I find most of AV posts to be nothing more than fancy finger work if you know what I mean.

I'll just cite one example

"If you knew what Disney management really thinks about the three-visit-a-year pin trading crowd - it would make your snow globe boil.
"

That my friend is embelishment.

Another Voice

01-04-2006, 03:13 PM

I would just like to say that I do take offense at the "value bashing" that is going on.
No one is bashing the Values here. What we’re saying is that Disney is not providing enough for the Values. It’s not the size of swimming pools or the number of little shampoo bottles they leave in your room every afternoon – it’s about the core element that made Disney resorts different than all those places strung out on International Drive.

“Themeing” means using all the elements around to provide a sense of being “somewhere” else. It’s more than just the art stapled to the walls or the cute names for the restaurants. It’s the flickering shadows on the vegetation cast by the torches at the Poly, the “zoom” of the monorail as it glides overhead at the Contemporary, the smell of magnolias at Port Orleans. At its core, truly theming a place is the same as storytelling. In fact, the whole point of a Disney themed hotel was to give you the exact same feeling you get when you walk into a themed land in the Magic Kingdom.

“Decoration” just makes something look more appealing that it would be otherwise. It’s the way a twenty foot Yo-Ho hides the concrete tilt-wall construction blockhouse. Things may look better, but it doesn’t have the same impact as being in a themed resort. The place may be pleasant to be in, but it doesn’t have the same “oh wow – look at this” feeling that the parks pull off.

And it’s not a question of money – like all storytelling it’s more about talent and effort. For the same amount of money they spent at Pop Century, Disney could have designed a place that gave had the same impact as Dixie Landings or Old Key West. It was Disney that decided against putting in this extra effort because of how they see the market.

No one is looking down at anyone staying in the Values. We’re just disappointed with Disney's approach.

Peter - No one is telling you to believe anything. In fact, I suggest you put me on your "ignore" list so you won't have to waste your time reading my posts.

peter11435

01-04-2006, 03:21 PM

No one is bashing the Values here. What we’re saying is that Disney is not providing enough for the Values. It’s not the size of swimming pools or the number of little shampoo bottles they leave in your room every afternoon – it’s about the core element that made Disney resorts different than all those places strung out on International Drive.

“Themeing” means using all the elements around to provide a sense of being “somewhere” else. It’s more than just the art stapled to the walls or the cute names for the restaurants. It’s the flickering shadows on the vegetation cast by the torches at the Poly, the “zoom” of the monorail as it glides overhead at the Contemporary, the smell of magnolias at Port Orleans. At its core, truly theming a place is the same as storytelling. In fact, the whole point of a Disney themed hotel was to give you the exact same feeling you get when you walk into a themed land in the Magic Kingdom.

“Decoration” just makes something look more appealing that it would be otherwise. It’s the way a twenty foot Yo-Ho hides the concrete tilt-wall construction blockhouse. Things may look better, but it doesn’t have the same impact as being in a themed resort. The place may be pleasant to be in, but it doesn’t have the same “oh wow – look at this” feeling that the parks pull off.

And it’s not a question of money – like all storytelling it’s more about talent and effort. For the same amount of money they spent at Pop Century, Disney could have designed a place that gave had the same impact as Dixie Landings or Old Key West. It was Disney that decided against putting in this extra effort because of how they see the market.

No one is looking down at anyone staying in the Values. We’re just disappointed with Disney's approach.

Peter - No one is telling you to believe anything. In fact, I suggest you put me on your "ignore" list so you won't have to waste your time reading my posts.

To be honest I think that post was excellent. And I agree that Disney could have built something far better for the amount that Pop cost.

DisneyGirl4188

01-04-2006, 03:28 PM

I see your points, but each resort is different and evokes a different 'feel'. When I see ASMo I DO get the feeling of magic. The values just have a different feel than a deluxe. I don't feel like I am at just another Hojo, but that I am somewhere special. I wouldn't change the resorts at all. My little brother will be going with DH and I next time and he picked POP. He loves the pictures of it and doesn't feel the same about any of the other places. To him, POP is magic.

All Aboard

01-04-2006, 03:57 PM

The only reason you have to believe him is that you choose to.

If you mean that I have nothing more than just reading his posts online, then you are incorrect.

That my friend is embelishment.

Actually, in that case, it was the use of humor and metaphor (perhaps even allegory) to drive home a point. How Michael Eisner felt about theme parks and the guests who were "caught up in them" is no real secret.

Jason71

01-04-2006, 04:34 PM

I think the real profit margin for the values lies not in the profit per room per night, but in the fact that guests in the hotel (i) are not staying along I-Drive (or 192), and therefore (ii) less likely to have a car, and therefore (iii) even less likely to make a day trip to Universal or Wonderworks, or have a meal at Bahama Breeze or Golden Corral.

From that perspective, it made sense for Eisner et al to throw up the cheapest resort they could find--it was all about keeping people on-site, not necessarily entertaining them with Disney magic once they arrived. To me, it's like McDonalds french fries in the parks. Obviously there is a market for it, but I prefered it when Disney did things better than the real world just because they could.

airlarry!

01-04-2006, 06:17 PM

I have never once heard AV provide any reason why we should believe him except for this cheap I have sources type of comments.I don't remember ever hearing that. However that said I caution everyone that anyone can post anything on the internet.This is a true statement.

pedro2112

01-04-2006, 06:18 PM

No one is bashing the Values here. What we’re saying is that Disney is not providing enough for the Values. It’s not the size of swimming pools or the number of little shampoo bottles they leave in your room every afternoon – it’s about the core element that made Disney resorts different than all those places strung out on International Drive.

“Themeing” means using all the elements around to provide a sense of being “somewhere” else. It’s more than just the art stapled to the walls or the cute names for the restaurants. It’s the flickering shadows on the vegetation cast by the torches at the Poly, the “zoom” of the monorail as it glides overhead at the Contemporary, the smell of magnolias at Port Orleans. At its core, truly theming a place is the same as storytelling. In fact, the whole point of a Disney themed hotel was to give you the exact same feeling you get when you walk into a themed land in the Magic Kingdom.

“Decoration” just makes something look more appealing that it would be otherwise. It’s the way a twenty foot Yo-Ho hides the concrete tilt-wall construction blockhouse. Things may look better, but it doesn’t have the same impact as being in a themed resort. The place may be pleasant to be in, but it doesn’t have the same “oh wow – look at this” feeling that the parks pull off.

And it’s not a question of money – like all storytelling it’s more about talent and effort. For the same amount of money they spent at Pop Century, Disney could have designed a place that gave had the same impact as Dixie Landings or Old Key West. It was Disney that decided against putting in this extra effort because of how they see the market.

No one is looking down at anyone staying in the Values. We’re just disappointed with Disney's approach.

That's what I thought you meant, but I wanted to make sure.

I concur 100%.

Bstanley

01-04-2006, 07:00 PM

I don't remember ever hearing that. However that said I caution everyone that anyone can post anything on the internet.

Indeed.

Personally I've found that portraying myself as a middle-aged ex-paratrooper keeps the pedophiles at bay. :cool1:

lacy1101

01-10-2006, 03:18 PM

How nice! ::yes:: Wonder what the rate will be?

YoHo

01-10-2006, 04:03 PM

It’s the way a twenty foot Yo-Ho hides the concrete tilt-wall construction blockhouse.

Ugh, thanks for the nightmare fuel.

This thread is like a bad trip.
Posts flying out of the ether. Whoa.

Anyway, Jason71, I agree that picking up the mouthbreathers* on 192 and I-Drive was the goal. Too bad it didn't so much work and instead they just got a bunch of repeat visitors to downgrade.

* This is what Disney thinks of it's guests, not what I think. As All Aboard pointed out, It's well established that Eisner and Disney managment think the people that actually like Disney are beneath contempt.

Jason71

01-11-2006, 08:02 AM

Anyway, Jason71, I agree that picking up the mouthbreathers* on 192 and I-Drive was the goal. Too bad it didn't so much work and instead they just got a bunch of repeat visitors to downgrade.

* This is what Disney thinks of it's guests, not what I think. As All Aboard pointed out, It's well established that Eisner and Disney managment think the people that actually like Disney are beneath contempt.

I would agree, Rule of Unintended Consequences. (Like running buses to get people to go to Downtown Disney and instead causing DD space to fill up with people looking for free parking so no one can go there...oops, wrong out-of-control thread).

BTW, just for the record, I have nothing against I-Drive, seeing as I live only a block off it. I understand you were referring to Eisner & co., but in case anyone else thinks I was trying to run it down.

peter11435

01-11-2006, 08:09 AM

As All Aboard pointed out, It's well established that Eisner and Disney managment think the people that actually like Disney are beneath contempt.

Where? Show me proof outside of people posts on the internet.

All Aboard

01-11-2006, 12:36 PM

Bstanley

01-11-2006, 12:49 PM

While I have a high confidence level that The Big ME thinks that he is a superior being - it's a reach to extend that belief to ALL of Disney Management.

There are a fair number of those guys that started out running 'The Haunted Mansion' years ago and I'm not convinced that all of them have gone over to the Dark Side - even those at the very top.

Perhaps the broadness of the brush is what was being responded to.

YoHo

01-11-2006, 12:57 PM

I'd like you to name one person in upper managment (besides holdovers in Imagineering, a dead end job if there ever was one) that was with the company that long. Most of them were sycophants and when you're riding on someone's coat tails, you mimick him.

Bstanley

01-11-2006, 01:07 PM

Didn't Al Weiss start out as a co-op at WDW?

And Greg Emmer was a DL cast member I think.

YoHo

01-11-2006, 01:32 PM

Neither of whom had much power over how the Values were built.

The best answer would be Dick Cook, but being head of the Studio doesn't really put you in a position to care about the afformentioned mouthbreathers one way or the other. And what of the famed strategic planning?

Bstanley

01-11-2006, 01:58 PM

I am confident in believing that there are many people in 'Disney Management' that do not think I am 'beneath contempt'.

I even have some hope that B.Iger does not think I am 'beneath contempt' - he hasn't immediately done the things that I would have done in his place - but then again he hasn't done anything particularly 'Big ME'-like and he has made some modest steps in letting the operating groups stand on their own, which IMHO was a good thing. At worst (so far) he hasn't demonstrated that he 'gets it'.

peter11435

01-11-2006, 02:01 PM

Peter, I am curious as to what would qualify as "proof" under your demand. Short of Mr. Eisner opening his first segment of "Conversations" with it, I'm not sure what would satisfy you. Would quotes from Disney War? Would writings by other people who worked with him? No matter what anyone could offer up, it would still be third party. So, I don't think it would be possible to satisfy your request.

As others have stated Eisner does not represent all of Disney management. To say that Eisner feels this way is one thing but to point that finger at all of Disney management is immature.

Danaans

01-11-2006, 02:41 PM

I have made observations that things have been different at WDW, but that may be that the landscape is changing via the changing of Disney’s corporate infrastructure. I can only speak from experience and I have noted that you get treated better at the deluxe resorts than you do at the value resorts. Case in point -- bus service. Serious Improvement Needed! I’ve seen cattle cars that have more room.

And as far as Disney on the whole is concerned I have to agree with AV… Remember first, Disney is a business… That logo also now identifies an institution whose $22 billion in annual sales make it the world's largest media company. In fact they might have even written the book on it. Do I think it’s deviated since Walt’s first concept of the amusement park, oh yeah. Wasn’t Walt once quoted as saying a park that was affordable to everyone?

“Disneyland is not just another amusement park. It's unique, and I want it kept that way. Besides, you don't work for a dollar — you work to create and have fun.”

Walt Disney

We’ve come a long way since then.

YoHo

01-11-2006, 03:28 PM

GAH, Danaans I was gonna quote your post, but all the tags scared me.

anyway
“Disneyland is not just another amusement park. It's unique, and I want it kept that way. Besides, you don't work for a dollar — you work to create and have fun.”

Walt Disney

What a novel concept I wonder what the consultants think of that?

And I'll amend my statement. Anyone in managment that actually matters has contempt for the guests as corporate policy if not personal opinion.

People that get to go to the Company picnic, but don't sit at the executive's table don't count.

peter11435

01-11-2006, 03:31 PM

I can only speak from experience and I have noted that you get treated better at the deluxe resorts than you do at the value resorts. Case in point -- bus service. Serious Improvement Needed! I’ve seen cattle cars that have more room.

I have always been treated the same at any WDW resort I have stayed at. As for bus service, that is not unique to the values. The moderates and all of the deluxe resorts also have the same bus service.

peter11435

01-11-2006, 03:33 PM

And I'll amend my statement. Anyone in managment that actually matters has contempt for the guests as corporate policy if not personal opinion.

You really shouldn't make comments with no attempt to substantiate them.

Danaans

01-11-2006, 03:55 PM

I have always been treated the same at any WDW resort I have stayed at. As for bus service, that is not unique to the values. The moderates and all of the deluxe resorts also have the same bus service.

Peter, In this instance, it was directly related to staying at the ASMo. The bus service on 12/20 was sub-standard. There was not enough busses running to the ASMo, but I counted three, (in the time it took to finally get a bus.....going to the same Deluxe resort)

Danaans

01-11-2006, 04:02 PM

YoHo...tags...I have tags.....Gag! Sorry I scared you off....

Yup, Disney did say that. I was wondering what current policies now are in effect as far as the Greenback goes....

peter11435

01-11-2006, 05:58 PM

Peter, In this instance, it was directly related to staying at the ASMo. The bus service on 12/20 was sub-standard. There was not enough busses running to the ASMo, but I counted three, (in the time it took to finally get a bus.....going to the same Deluxe resort)
I see your point. And to be honest have seen he same thing myself. However I have also seen the same thing the other way around. I have had poor bus services and great bus service as all levels of Disney resorts.

Taqwus

02-04-2006, 02:27 PM

I was there doing the christmass rush and I did notice in some areas that you would see 3 buses from 1 resort before you would see one from your resort.
I do know they will route a bus from one resort to another after they drop off at the theme parks. ALso I have seen a bus driver call in for another bus when he sees a large crowd

Danaans

02-04-2006, 08:07 PM

Yeah, Tag I know I called our resort and requested a bus be sent to us...

but before it arrived we ended up getting on another. We were also there at Christmastime.

Mari annie

02-05-2006, 02:06 PM

;)

Everyone's IDEA of a Disney Vacation "is to each their own" :cool1:
If you don't want to stay at a budget locale, don't.

We have been going for years, 23rd trip coming up shortly.
We've stayed from All Stars-The Grand Floridian.
I like them all for different reasons, if one goes to WDW with their family
they are lucky to afford it!

I also like to use my mugs and interchange them at all the different hotels-
:cheer2:

YEA, now that's an idea!!! :rolleyes1

Off to see the MICk in 8 days!!! :moped:

Kelly Grannell

02-12-2006, 10:14 AM

I have always been treated the same at any WDW resort I have stayed at. As for bus service, that is not unique to the values. The moderates and all of the deluxe resorts also have the same bus service.

I'm sorry, but your math and/or your ability in understanding time must be abysmal. It's always 3:1 ratio for bus frequency between deluxe vs value. Considering the occupancy on the value is at least double the deluxe, that makes the relative ratio 6:1.

sandy6879

02-18-2006, 12:52 PM

Having gone to the value resors each of the past 4 years, I have to agree that the bus service is abysmal. We will be renting a car for the next trip and driving ourselves to the parks, just so I can lower my stress level :scared:

However, I think what many people are saying here, and again, I agree, is that Disney has lost the feeling Walt intended for it and has begun to resemble the corporate ruled world we live in. The prices have steadily crept up, as has their profit margins. In an effort to make halfway decent movies again, they bought Pixar. The creativity seems to be decreasing as the ideas for how to make more $$ is increasing. It's a shame, I think we all loved the Disney ideals we had as children, and I'm not sure what it will look like in 20+ years. Again, these are my opinions, not trying to rub them on anyone, but I do enjoy reading these posts. It truly opens my eyes to other opinions and ideas.

peter11435

02-18-2006, 02:28 PM

I'm sorry, but your math and/or your ability in understanding time must be abysmal. It's always 3:1 ratio for bus frequency between deluxe vs value. Considering the occupancy on the value is at least double the deluxe, that makes the relative ratio 6:1.
Im sorry but that is wrong. My math and my understanding of time is fine. Maybe in your limited experience that is what you have observed. I am on property nearly everyday and know perfectly what I am talking about. Most of the time the buses are far more frequent at the values than at the deluxes. To say otherwise is not only absurd but it is just plain wrong.

Kelly Grannell

02-18-2006, 02:36 PM

peter11435

02-18-2006, 02:50 PM

I guess it's just my luck (and a few countless thousands of people who stays at the All Star Resorts) that in the past 2 years when I stayed the total of 60 days I always experience the 3:1 frequency ratio.
I don't know about your luck, but I can assure you that there are always more buses on the value routes than any others.

Kelly Grannell

02-18-2006, 02:55 PM

peter11435

02-18-2006, 03:15 PM

more buses yes, but I'm talking about number of buses vs number of riders ratio.

say they give 1 bus for every moderate, and they give 6 buses All Stars Resorts, that doesn't mean they give more bus for All Stars Resorts because the occupancy of the All Stars Resorts is much higher than a moderate resort. It's like saying "I give $300 for the kids of family B and I only give $100 for my kids" but left out the fact that I only have two kids (ie $50 each) but family B has 12 kids (ie $25 each).

It's the ratio that counts, not the number of buses.

If the ratios are approximately equal, then at the time park closes, both groups (moderates vs value resorts) should have the approximately same wait time.
I understand completly. The fact is that number of buses on each route is determined by demand. Thus if their is one bus on an AKL route (~1000 rooms) there will be 3 buses on a pop route (~3000). The reason the lines get longer at the value stops than the deluxes is not because of a lack of buses but that they can't get there quick enough. They can only load 1-2-3 buses at a time. The values are the only resorts where they often load multiple buses at once