So this is what happens to those who help

[DisDuck]

I am posting the complete article from NYT on Navy heliocopters used to rescue people on Tuesday(8/30). This is just one example of why the Feds are being included in the 'blame' and rightfully so. Important to note that the supplies were already dropped off. These pilots did the rescueing on their way home to Pensacola. If our own military has to stand on ceremony/red-tape then who can we rely on for aid in a disaster?


Navy Pilots Who Rescued Victims Are Reprimanded
By DAVID S. CLOUD
Published: September 7, 2005

PENSACOLA, Fla., Sept. 6 - Two Navy helicopter pilots and their crews returned from New Orleans on Aug. 30 expecting to be greeted as lifesavers after ferrying more than 100 hurricane victims to safety.

Instead, their superiors chided the pilots, Lt. David Shand and Lt. Matt Udkow, at a meeting the next morning for rescuing civilians when their assignment that day had been to deliver food and water to military installations along the Gulf Coast.

"I felt it was a great day because we resupplied the people we needed to and we rescued people, too," Lieutenant Udkow said. But the air operations commander at Pensacola Naval Air Station "reminded us that the logistical mission needed to be our area of focus."

The episode illustrates how the rescue effort in the days immediately after Hurricane Katrina had to compete with the military's other, more mundane logistical needs.

Only in recent days, after the federal response to the disaster has come to be seen as inadequate, have large numbers of troops and dozens of helicopters, trucks and other equipment been poured into to the effort. Early on, the military rescue operations were smaller, often depending on the initiative of individuals like Lieutenants Shand and Udkow.

The two lieutenants were each piloting a Navy H-3 helicopter - a type often used in rescue operations as well as transport and other missions - on that Tuesday afternoon, delivering emergency food, water and other supplies to Stennis Space Center, a federal facility near the Mississippi coast. The storm had cut off electricity and water to the center, and the two helicopters were supposed to drop their loads and return to Pensacola, their home base, said Cmdr. Michael Holdener, Pensacola's air operations chief.

"Their orders were to go and deliver water and parts and to come back," Commander Holdener said.

But as the two helicopters were heading back home, the crews picked up a radio transmission from the Coast Guard saying helicopters were needed near the University of New Orleans to help with rescue efforts, the two pilots said.

Out of range for direct radio communication with Pensacola, more than 100 miles to the east, the pilots said, they decided to respond and turned their helicopters around, diverting from their mission without getting permission from their home base. Within minutes, they were over New Orleans.

"We're not technically a search-and-rescue unit, but we're trained to do search and rescue," said Lieutenant Shand, a 17-year Navy veteran.

Flying over Biloxi and Gulfport and other areas of Mississippi, they could see rescue personnel on the ground, Lieutenant Udkow said, but he noticed that there were few rescue units around the flooded city of New Orleans, on the ground or in the air. "It was shocking," he said.

Seeing people on the roofs of houses waving to him, Lieutenant Udkow headed in their direction. Hovering over power lines, his crew dropped a basket to pick up two residents at a time. He took them to Lakefront Airport, where local emergency medical teams had established a makeshift medical center.

Meanwhile, Lieutenant Shand landed his helicopter on the roof of an apartment building, where more than a dozen people were marooned. Women and children were loaded first aboard the helicopter and ferried to the airport, he said.

Returning to pick up the rest, the crew learned that two blind residents had not been able to climb up through the attic to the roof and were still in the building. Two crew members entered the darkened building to find the men, and led them to the roof and into the helicopter, Lieutenant Shand said.

Recalling the rescues in an interview, he became so emotional that he had to stop and compose himself. At one point, he said, he executed a tricky landing at a highway overpass, where more than 35 people were marooned.

Lieutenant Udkow said that he saw few other rescue helicopters in New Orleans that day. The toughest part, he said, was seeing so many people imploring him to pick them up and having to leave some.

"I would be looking at a family of two on one roof and maybe a family of six on another roof, and I would have to make a decision who to rescue," he said. "It wasn't easy."

While refueling at a Coast Guard landing pad in early evening, Lieutenant Udkow said, he called Pensacola and received permission to continue rescues that evening. According to the pilots and other military officials, they rescued 110 people.

The next morning, though, the two crews were called to a meeting with Commander Holdener, who said he told them that while helping civilians was laudable, the lengthy rescue effort was an unacceptable diversion from their main mission of delivering supplies. With only two helicopters available at Pensacola to deliver supplies, the base did not have enough to allow pilots to go on prolonged search and rescue operations.

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Commander Holdener said. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do right now and that is not the priority."

The order to halt civilian relief efforts angered some helicopter crews. Lieutenant Udkow, who associates say was especially vocal about voicing his disagreement to superiors, was taken out of the squadron's flying rotation temporarily and assigned to oversee a temporary kennel established at Pensacola to hold pets of service members evacuated from the hurricane-damaged areas, two members of the unit said. Lieutenant Udkow denied that he had complained and said he did not view the kennel assignment as punishment.

Dozens of military aircraft are now conducting search and rescue missions over the affected areas. But privately some members of the Pensacola unit say the base's two available transport helicopters should have been allowed to do more to help civilian victims in the days after the storm hit, when large numbers of military helicopters had not reached the affected areas.

In protest, some members of the unit have stopped wearing a search and rescue patch on their sleeves that reads, "So Others May Live."

[dadtoagirl]

The next morning, though, the two crews were called to a meeting with Commander Holdener, who said he told them that while helping civilians was laudable, the lengthy rescue effort was an unacceptable diversion from their main mission of delivering supplies. With only two helicopters available at Pensacola to deliver supplies, the base did not have enough to allow pilots to go on prolonged search and rescue operations.
"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Commander Holdener said. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do right now and that is not the priority."

I applaud them for rescuing people, but at the time you had thousands starving to death all over the gulf in need of supplies which had to be delivered by helicopter, but weren't as the helicopters were being used for other purposes. I can see both sides of the argument and these guys were in a lose lose situation.

[tiggersmom2]

I applaud them for rescuing people, but at the time you had thousands starving to death all over the gulf in need of supplies which had to be delivered by helicopter, but weren't as the helicopters were being used for other purposes. I can see both sides of the argument and these guys were in a lose lose situation.


I agree

[DisDuck]

here is part of the story you might have missed.

"The two lieutenants were each piloting a Navy H-3 helicopter - a type often used in rescue operations as well as transport and other missions - on that Tuesday afternoon, delivering emergency food, water and other supplies to Stennis Space Center, a federal facility near the Mississippi coast. The storm had cut off electricity and water to the center, and the two helicopters were supposed to drop their loads and return to Pensacola, their home base, said Cmdr. Michael Holdener, Pensacola's air operations chief.

Their orders were to go and deliver water and parts and to come back," Commander Holdener said."

But as the two helicopters were heading back home, the crews picked up a radio transmission from the Coast Guard saying helicopters were needed near the University of New Orleans to help with rescue efforts, the two pilots said"


This was a Federal Facility which doesn't mean they should not have gotten the supplies but why is supply drop a higher priority than saving lives. Then don't forget these pilots were on there way home, supplies had already been delivered when a call for aid came thru. Should they have ignored that call?

[Tigger_Magic]

The Navy pilots should have followed orders. What would happen if all the helicopters and crews decided to do what they thought was "best"? I applaud their efforts to bring much needed supplies to those in need, but to decide "to respond and turned their helicopters around, diverting from their mission without getting permission from their home base" is simply wrong.

[Tigger_Magic]

here is part of the story you might have missed.

"The two lieutenants were each piloting a Navy H-3 helicopter - a type often used in rescue operations as well as transport and other missions - on that Tuesday afternoon, delivering emergency food, water and other supplies to Stennis Space Center, a federal facility near the Mississippi coast. The storm had cut off electricity and water to the center, and the two helicopters were supposed to drop their loads and return to Pensacola, their home base, said Cmdr. Michael Holdener, Pensacola's air operations chief.

Their orders were to go and deliver water and parts and to come back," Commander Holdener said."

But as the two helicopters were heading back home, the crews picked up a radio transmission from the Coast Guard saying helicopters were needed near the University of New Orleans to help with rescue efforts, the two pilots said"


This was a Federal Facility which doesn't mean they should not have gotten the supplies but why is supply drop a higher priority than saving lives. Then don't forget these pilots were on there way home, supplies had already been delivered when a call for aid came thru. Should they have ignored that call? They should have contacted their immediate superiors to advise them of the call for extra help and requested permission to do what they did. That's the way the military works. Unless you want to suggest mutiny as an SOP.

[peachgirl]

This was a Federal Facility which doesn't mean they should not have gotten the supplies but why is supply drop a higher priority than saving lives.

Interesting...I recall several discussions here and statements made by Federal officials that the priority was rescue and saving lives when asked why they didn't drop supplies to those at the Convention Center who were dying of dehydration.

[BibbidiBobbidiBOO]

The Navy pilots should have followed orders. What would happen if all the helicopters and crews decided to do what they thought was "best"? I applaud their efforts to bring much needed supplies to those in need, but to decide "to respond and turned their helicopters around, diverting from their mission without getting permission from their home base" is simply wrong.

I agree. You have orders and a chain of command for reasons. With only 2 from that area to deliver supplies, they may have had others ready to make a run with supplies to another area.

[DoeWDW]

What they don't tell me in the story is what ELSE was scheduled for those helicopters that did not get done. They were told to drop supplies and return. Would they then have been sent on other supply-drop-and-return missions that didn't get done because the helicopters were not back?

If they were to return and then have the rest of the day off, and they chose to keep working and rescuing people then my hat is off to them.

If there were people who were harmed by going without food and water and other needed supplies because they diverted to NOLA, then I'm not as sure.

Actually, either way my hat is off to them. They should be considered heroes. I'm proud that they serve my country.

[Planogirl]

I'm grateful to these guys for caring enough to rescue some people. They are heroes in my book.

[DisDuck]

Tigger and Bibb.. As pointed out in the article, the pilots did try to contact Pensacola and could not get thru. So they made a decision to help rather than ignore the call. I consider that the correct call. And don't we train our military to think and not just follow order because they are orders (sort of settled by The Nuremburg Trials where the 'I was just following orders' was not a defense).

[dadtoagirl]

Tigger and Bibb.. As pointed out in the article, the pilots did try to contact Pensacola and could not get thru. So they made a decision to help rather than ignore the call. I consider that the correct call. And don't we train our military to think and not just follow order because they are orders (sort of settled by The Nuremburg Trials where the 'I was just following orders' was not a defense).

Their is no right or wrong in a situation like this. They did what they did and helped how they thought they should. End of story!

[JimB.]

Having had a career flying in the Navy, perhaps I can interject .........

Search & Rescue has ALWAYS been a major mission of the Navy, be it jets, helo's, props, subs or ships.

These guys apparently fulfilled their primary mission. They performed a secondary rescue mission without incident & with positive results. This was not an example of "flat hatting" (as we called it).

They should get a pat on the back.

As an example to those that say they should have just "followed orders".....

A few (ok, ok, many) years ago, I was flying out over the Atlantic Ocean about 150 miles off of the coast of Jacksonville, Fl.. While we were performing our mission, we heard a "mayday" call over "Guard" frequency (which is a distress frequency we ALL had to monitor ALL THE TIME). We broke off of our mission and DF'ed our way down a bearing to where the call came from.

We found an H-3 helicopter about 35 miles off of the coast, (coincidentally the ones used by these guys) floating in the water upside down with 4 guys next to it in a life raft. Obviously, being a fixed wing aircraft, we could not fish these guys out ourselves, but you can be doggone sure we extended our flight and stayed over these guys until they were rescued.

Question: Should we have ignored the call?

It's part of the job.

Always.

And these guys (IMHO) showed SUPERIOR initiative in assisting in the rescue of thoses that needed it.

And their CO needs to re-evaluate his outlook.

There was once a very famous WW2 Admiral named Arleigh Burke. He had a standing "order" (for lack of a better term) that he would give a case of Scotch to any of his staff officers that did the right thing by DIS-obeying one of his orders.

These guys should at least get a bottle........................

[What the Heck]

Having had a career flying in the Navy, perhaps I can interject .........

Search & Rescue has ALWAYS been a major mission of the Navy, be it jets, helo's, props, subs or ships.

These guys apparently fulfilled their primary mission. They performed a secondary rescue mission without incident & with positive results. This was not an example of "flat hatting" (as we called it).

They should get a pat on the back.

As an example to those that say they should have just "followed orders".....

A few (ok, ok, many) years ago, I was flying out over the Atlantic Ocean about 150 miles off of the coast of Jacksonville, Fl.. While we were performing our mission, we heard a "mayday" call over "Guard" frequency (which is a distress frequency we ALL had to monitor ALL THE TIME). We broke off of our mission and DF'ed our way down a bearing to where the call came from.

We found an H-3 helicopter about 35 miles off of the coast, (coincidentally the ones used by these guys) floating in the water upside down with 4 guys next to it in a life raft. Obviously, being a fixed wing aircraft, we could not fish these guys out ourselves, but you can be doggone sure we extended our flight and stayed over these guys until they were rescued.

Question: Should we have ignored the call?

It's part of the job.

Always.

And these guys (IMHO) showed SUPERIOR initiative in assisting in the rescue of thoses that needed it.

And their CO needs to re-evaluate his outlook.

There was once a very famous WW2 Admiral named Arleigh Burke. He had a standing "order" (for lack of a better term) that he would give a case of Scotch to any of his staff officers that did the right thing by DIS-obeying one of his orders.

These guys should at least get a bottle........................I agree. However, I disagree with the inferences made. One moron Navy Commander does not make the decisions for the entire Administration. Their commander on site was wrong and should be reprimanded for it - and never promoted again.

[Tigger_Magic]

Tigger and Bibb.. As pointed out in the article, the pilots did try to contact Pensacola and could not get thru. So they made a decision to help rather than ignore the call. I consider that the correct call. And don't we train our military to think and not just follow order because they are orders (sort of settled by The Nuremburg Trials where the 'I was just following orders' was not a defense). Yes, we do train our military to follow orders, because if you have every person deciding to do whatever seems right in their own eyes, you'd have chaos. Imagine every helicopter pilot deciding to do whatever they thought would be the "best" in this situation... it could have severely compounded the disaster.

I understand that they tried to call their base and could not get through. The fact is they had orders to follow and they chose to do something different. I applaud their efforts to help, but the bottom line is they violated military protocol. However, this hardly rises to the level of comparison to Nuremburg -- :rolleyes:

What they did was good, but it was also wrong. If they are punished, whatever punishment they receive is justified.

[BuckNaked]

And don't we train our military to think and not just follow order because they are orders

Not quite - the military is trained to follow all lawful orders. The order to return to base was obviously lawful.

(sort of settled by The Nuremburg Trials where the 'I was just following orders' was not a defense).

Don't you think that's just a wee bit over dramatic? You're comparing following an order to return to base to an order to murder millions of people?

They did what they did, and there were called on it. Big deal.

[JimB.]

What they did was good, but it was also wrong. If they are punished, whatever punishment they receive is justified

Just a question. Ever been in this situation?

There is a little block on Fitness reports labeled "Initiative", which we, as Naval Aviators, Flight Officers & Aircrew pride ourselves on.

"Flexibility" is another.

One thing we learned back in the days of the Cold War was that the Soviets feared the crap out of the American Military because we did not "stick to the book". We are flexible, adaptable & often "Think outside the box". They feared our unpredictability.

This is an asset.

What those pilots getting their butts reamed for is an asset. They should not get punished. At the most, remind them of the overall mission and what they need to accomplish.

But LIFE SAFETY takes precedent over other missions.

[DisDuck]

So, Tigger... The fact that when the pilot was able to get in-touch with Pensacola he was told to continue with the rescue operation then return to base. Gee, if he had made such a bad judgement call why was he not ordered to return immediately? Then, he certainly got a just punishment. Temporary suspension of flight status and assigned to Kennel duty watching the animals rescued from other bases. That is a good use of a trained resource. That commander showed everyone who is the boss. :confused3

[Laura]

So, Tigger... The fact that when the pilot was able to get in-touch with Pensacola he was told to continue with the rescue operation then return to base. Gee, if he had made such a bad judgement call why was he not ordered to return immediately? Then, he certainly got a just punishment. Temporary suspension of flight status and assigned to Kennel duty watching the animals rescued from other bases. That is a good use of a trained resource. That commander showed everyone who is the boss. :confused3

Funny; I just read this article and posted it on the liberal thread on the Community Board.

I totally agree with you, and why weren't they reprimanded when they called the base?

[Jaybrad]

I would not believe the New York Times if they said the Sun would rise tomorrow. Those folks rather climb a tree and tell a lie than tell the truth!!

[mom2alix]

Here's another source with a slightly different version of this story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_navy_rescuers_1;_ylt=AtdqZnMA4PwgqgqWC37eb 0UGw_IE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2ZGZwam4yBHNlYwNmYw--

Fla. Pilots 'Counseled' for Rescues By BILL KACZOR, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 24 minutes ago



Two Navy helicopter pilots were reminded of the importance of supply missions after delivering their cargo and then rescuing 110 hurricane victims in New Orleans instead of immediately returning to base, the military said Wednesday.

One of the pilots was temporarily assigned to a kennel but that was not punishment, said Patrick Nichols, a civilian public affairs officer at Pensacola Naval Air Station.

"They were not reprimanded," Nichols said. "They were counseled."

Lt. Matt Udkow and Lt. David Shand returned to the base from their mission on Aug. 30, a day after Hurricane Katrina made landfall, Nichols said.

Udkow and Shand met the next morning with Cmdr. Michael Holdener, who reminded them their orders were to fly water and other supplies to three destinations in Mississippi — the Stennis Space Center, Pascagoula and Gulfport — and then return to Pensacola, Nichols said.

"The Hollywood role of this thing is search and rescue," Nichols told The Associated Press. "Logistics was just as important. They realize that."

According to an account in The New York Times, the two air crews picked up a Coast Guard radio call that helicopters were needed for rescues in New Orleans. They were out of radio range to Pensacola, so they decided to fly their helicopters to New Orleans and join the rescue effort without permission.

It took only minutes for the H-3 helicopters to fly to New Orleans, where Udkow's crew plucked people off rooftops. Shand landed his helicopter on the roof of an apartment building where more than a dozen people had been stranded. When he returned to get more, two crew members entered the building and found two blind residents and led them to the helicopter.

Udkow later received permission to continue with the rescue missions when he landed to refuel in New Orleans.

Both helicopters returned to Pensacola, about 200 miles east of New Orleans, by dark, as required by flight rules. Nichols was unsure whether any supplies went undelivered as a result of the rescues.

The pilots and Holdener weren't available for interviews Wednesday, Nichols said. He said Udkow was flying and Shand was resting between missions.

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Holdener told the Times. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do night now and that is not the priority."

The air over New Orleans was so thick with helicopters a few days later that crews were having a hard time finding people who needed rescuing, but that was not the case when Udkow and Shand flew their rescue missions.

"I would be looking at a family of two on one roof and maybe a family of six on another roof, and I would have to make a decision who to rescue," Udkow told the Times. "It wasn't easy."

Nichols said Udkow was in no way being punished by being put in charge of a temporary kennel in Pensacola for pets of military personnel who had been evacuated from hurricane-stricken areas.

"It's a collateral duty," Nichols said. "These guys don't just fly. They do other stuff."

[Tigger_Magic]

Just a question. Ever been in this situation? Nope. So does that negate my opinion? :confused3 There is a little block on Fitness reports labeled "Initiative", which we, as Naval Aviators, Flight Officers & Aircrew pride ourselves on.

"Flexibility" is another.

One thing we learned back in the days of the Cold War was that the Soviets feared the crap out of the American Military because we did not "stick to the book". We are flexible, adaptable & often "Think outside the box". They feared our unpredictability.

This is an asset.

What those pilots getting their butts reamed for is an asset. They should not get punished. At the most, remind them of the overall mission and what they need to accomplish.

But LIFE SAFETY takes precedent over other missions. Initiative and Flexibility are wonderful attributes that are ideal to find any anyone. I could only hope that those employees I manage would display these to some degree. They are also ideal in the military.

However, I don't think it's ideal for my employees or for military personnel to decide to do something -- especially something like this -- without getting prior clearance. Unpredictability can be an asset at times; in the midst of a natural disaster, however, unpredictability could easily compound an already bad or dangerous situation.

As I've said all along, I applaud their efforts to help. I just think there are appropriate ways to handle it and they did not follow the proper protocol. If they couldn't reach their base, they should have returned.

[LauraR]

I'm with the Lieutenants that saved so many lives. Their superior has some misplaced priorities. Did anyone die as a result of them blowing off their resupply mission? I seriously doubt it. Could many of the 110 people they saved have died? Yes. They used their better judgement and should be commended for it. Good to know that some of our military people value life over following orders. I imagine they thought their superior officer would support their decision (after being unable to contact him). Anybody with any common sense and human compassion would.

[DisDuck]

Well Jaybrad.. check your facts before condemning an organization. The report in NYT was not from anyone of their reporters but was copied off the Associated Press wire. Are they also a bunch of liars? Then there was a confirmation of the story with the only difference being the pilots were 'counseled' instead of reprimanded.

Then I like this quote "Nichols said Udkow was in no way being punished by being put in charge of a temporary kennel in Pensacola for pets of military personnel who had been evacuated from hurricane-stricken areas.

"It's a collateral duty," Nichols said. "These guys don't just fly. They do other stuff."


Kennel duty is not a 'collateral duty'. I guess it needed protection of PETA.

To those of you who think the pilots were wrong. I hope you are never in a position to need rescuing and are left behind because a pilot ignored a plea for help to return to base after bringing water/food stranded people. These people were supplied. It is not as if the pilots did not accomplish their primary goal of delivering supplies.

JimB and I don't always agree on things but I will defer to his experience in the military as to the proper course followed by these pilots.

[BibbidiBobbidiBOO]

DH is a logistics officer and I can tell you how important following orders is in this situation.

This happened last TUESDAY, the day we saw all the people wanting/needing supplies.
This statement is important:
Nichols was unsure whether any supplies went undelivered as a result of the rescues
That is the most important question I suppose. I am glad lives were saved at least (though others could have saved them later perhaps).

[DisDuck]

Or considering how little was being done in the beginning, especially with limited resources some one who might have died while waiting was saved. Just read the story from Meet The Press by the Jefferson Parish president on a friend's mother who died while waiting for rescue, day after day.

I give KUDOS to these pilots. They showed what it means to 'protect & serve'.

[Saffron]

I agree with JimB and dadtoagirl. And now I need a fainting smilie. ;) :teeth: