So, who's responsible?

[bsnyder]

No, not for New Orleans. Arguing after the fact isn't going to change what happened in the past.

But how about before the fact?

We haven't even reached the peak of the 2005 Hurricane season. Hopefully we won't have another Katrina, but chances are, we'll have more storms threaten our coastal communities. The central east coast of Florida has just been issued tropical storm warnings, due to TD#16.

So, who's responsible for the safety and well being of the folks living along our coasts?

The individual?

Their state and local governments?

Or, their federal government?

[ThAnswr]

No, not for New Orleans. Arguing after the fact isn't going to change what happened in the past.

But how about before the fact?

We haven't even reached the peak of the 2005 Hurricane season. Hopefully we won't have another Katrina, but chances are, we'll have more storms threaten our coastal communities. The central east coast of Florida has just been issued tropical storm warnings, due to TD#16.

So, who's responsible for the safety and well being of the folks living along our coasts?

The individual?

Their state and local governments?

Or, their federal government?

All of them.

[peachgirl]

All of them.

::yes::

[BuckNaked]

Primarily, the individuals and state/local government, especially before the storm hits and in the immediate aftermath.

[bsnyder]

All of them.

Who's in charge? All of them?

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Yes. All of them.

[ThAnswr]

Who's in charge? All of them?

You asked the question "who's responsible" and you got an answer.

You didn't ask who's in charge, you asked who's responsible.

The problem is you don't like the answer.

Btw, you're a little late to the party. Your question "who's responsible" has been asked and answered ad nauseum.

[bsnyder]

You asked the question "who's responsible" and you got an answer.

You didn't ask who's in charge, you asked who's responsible.

The problem is you don't like the answer.

Btw, you're a little late to the party. Your question "who's responsible" has been asked and answered ad nauseum.

No it hasn't.

My community could be in danger next week, or next month. Yours could be (again).

Let's just take one small item. We have a huge elderly population. Who is responsible for getting them evacuated?

Local?
State?
Federal?

[BuckNaked]

For those that say "all of them", to what degree?

For example, I think that the individuals, and state/local governments are responsible from the point that the storm is known to be on the way and through the immediate aftermath. After that, I think that the federal government should step in, and especially in the case of a major disaster, take over the entire operation, with state and local officials serving only a consulting role.

How about you guys?

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I like that idea.

[wvrevy]

State and local governments simply are not equipped to deal with something of this magnitude. As such, the Homeland Security department, of which FEMA is a part, has ultimate responsibility.

But the simplest answer is that everyone needs to do their part. Individuals that are capable of leaving should do so. Cities and states should do what they can to assist those that need it, and the fed should be overseeing the entire process, not just coming in during the aftermath.

[bsnyder]

You asked the question "who's responsible" and you got an answer.

You didn't ask who's in charge, you asked who's responsible.

The problem is you don't like the answer.

Btw, you're a little late to the party. Your question "who's responsible" has been asked and answered ad nauseum.

I asked "who's responsible for the safety and well being of the folks living along our coasts"?

I could just as easily said "who's in charge of the safety and well being of the folks...."

They're synonymous, in this context.

So, who do you think should be "in charge" and "responsible" for evacuating the nursing homes in your area?

FEMA?
Jeb?
Charlotte County officals?

[bsnyder]

State and local governments simply are not equipped to deal with something of this magnitude. As such, the Homeland Security department, of which FEMA is a part, has ultimate responsibility.

But the simplest answer is that everyone needs to do their part. Individuals that are capable of leaving should do so. Cities and states should do what they can to assist those that need it, and the fed should be overseeing the entire process, not just coming in during the aftermath.

What if the cities and states don't do what they can?

[BuckNaked]

But the simplest answer is that everyone needs to do their part. Individuals that are capable of leaving should do so. Cities and states should do what they can to assist those that need it, and the fed should be overseeing the entire process, not just coming in during the aftermath.

While I'm in favor of overhauling the laws so that any disaster declaration puts the feds in charge immediately after the storm hits, I'm not in favor of the federal government planning and overseeing evacuations and other preparations.

[poohandwendy]

You asked the question "who's responsible" and you got an answer.

You didn't ask who's in charge, you asked who's responsible.

The problem is you don't like the answer.

Btw, you're a little late to the party. Your question "who's responsible" has been asked and answered ad nauseum.I think she did ask ''who is in charge?'' on post 5 (?). If you don't have an answer or just don't want to, fine. But sheesh, thread starters aren't limited to one question, as far as I know.

I agree with Brenda. Beforehand and immediately after a hurricane, I think those who are responsible are the citizens and the local/state govt. Because they are the ones with immediate access and on the scene knowledge of what is going on. Afterwards, if the fed govt is needed, then they are responsible.

I would apply the same level of command to the question "who's in charge?' also.

I would not want or expect the federal govt to be on the scene before or immediately after every potential natural disaster because I think that would just cause more chaos and would be an unnecessary waste of resources.

I think we need a better plan for coordinating from the local level to the federal, hopefully that will happen.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Bet---if you have the means to get out of your home and protect it--the responsibilty lies on you. They cannot go door to door and personally assist every citizen. Some personal responsibilty is necessary. Our government is not baby sitters. We don't wear a GPS so that they know where we are at all times so that they can personally chase us out of town.

It is their responsibility to tell me there is a problem, maybe even if their might be a problem. Once they do that--I have personal responsibility to do what I can to protect myself.

After the fact--they need to tell me if it is safe or not--and if I'm permitted to return, then once again it is my responsibility to not do things I don't know how to do or would put myself at risk. If I don't know how to remove a tree from my home--I shouldn't do it.

Disaster readiness depends on the notion that most citizens can care for themselves.
For hurricane season, they've told me and you and everyone else this many times--have a plan, have your supplies, have your evacuation planned out. So they are expecting most citizens to do this. If they don't--then even their best plans won't go as planned.

For nursing homes/hospitals--THEY should have their own plans in place. Perhaps have that as part of their requirements to operate. Much like the evacuation plan in case of fire--they should have one in place for a hurricane as well.

[wvrevy]

What if the cities and states don't do what they can?
Then the officials there should be held responsible for their lack of action, up to and including impeachment for gross incompetance.

While I'm in favor of overhauling the laws so that any disaster declaration puts the feds in charge immediately after the storm hits, I'm not in favor of the federal government planning and overseeing evacuations and other preparations.
Why not ? They are much better equipped to handle such planning in that they can much more easily cooprdinate between neighboring states to lend support in terms of manpower and shelter, and they have many more resources at their disposal to make certain that the evacuation is as orderly and prompt as is possible.

We aren't talking about the evacuation of a few hundred people here, Brenda. It's completely unrealistic to expect a single local or state government to be able to manage something on the massive scale of the evacuation of a major city. They have neither the resources nor the manpower to do so.

[ThAnswr]

I think she did ask ''who is in charge?'' on post 5 (?). If you don't have an answer or just don't want to, fine. But sheesh, thread starters aren't limited to one question, as far as I know.

And I answered the OP on post 2 before the question morphed.

[BuckNaked]

We aren't talking about the evacuation of a few hundred people here, Brenda. It's completely unrealistic to expect a single local or state government to be able to manage something on the massive scale of the evacuation of a major city. They have neither the resources nor the manpower to do so.

It seems that other cities have been able to do it without federal interference.

[peachgirl]

Who's responsible depends on the severity of the disaster.

When the disaster is of such a magnitude that the local or state governments don't have the resources to handle it, the federal gov't has the responsibility to step in.

I assume we're talking catastrophes and not things like a tree limb fell on my house during a hail storm.

I don't recall a disaster that required the complete evacuation of well over 1 million people, and that's just the New Orleans area.

[BuckNaked]

I don't recall a disaster that required the complete evacuation of well over 1 million people, and that's just the New Orleans area.

I agree that NOLA is unique, and I could see possibly involving the feds in helping to evacuate that citizen. But without an adequate plan in place, all the help in the world won't make a difference.

[wvrevy]

It seems that other cities have been able to do it without federal interference.
Really ? Please point to the major metropolitan American city that has been completely evacuated without federal government assistance.

[peachgirl]

I agree that NOLA is unique, and I could see possibly involving the feds in helping to evacuate that citizen. But without an adequate plan in place, all the help in the world won't make a difference.

Whether it makes a difference or not, they are required to give assistance and they didn't.

I see this morning that Bush wants to head the probe in finding out what went wrong...a little like the fox guarding the hen house if you ask me. I think I'll rely on the congressional investigation which might be just a little more of a real investigation rather than a quick track to blame everyone but the Federal Government.

[JimMIA]

At the risk of joining a thread with a lot of silliness and personal bickering, I can tell you the legal answer.

The storm preparations and immediate aftermath are the legal responsibility of local and state officials. There is, however, a tremendous amount of coordination with federal agencies like the National Hurricane Center and FEMA...and it works a lot better than people with political agendas from either side would like to admit.

In Florida, which is what we are talking about in this particular thread (except for those of you who just don't like each other ;) ), the Governor has the authority to order mandatory evacuations. (That is not true in all states.) If that happens, local police agencies have the authority -- and in fact DO -- go into areas and remove people who decline their invitation to leave. The timing and logistics of all evacuations -- voluntary or mandatory -- are the responsibilities of local officials, although obviously they consult heavily with NHC.

In the aftermath of a storm, the entire process is the legal responsibility of the local and state authorities UNLESS they decide they can't handle it and ask for federal help. The federal response is a menu kind of thing, so you can select one type of aid and decline others.

Constitutionally, the federal government CANNOT step in and take over. In addition, there is a federal law prohibiting the U.S. military from performing law enforcement functions within the boundaries of the U.S., which is why you heard so much emphasis the other day about all those National Guard troops remaining under the control of the governors.

Some level of federal help is requested in virtually every storm situation, and that assistance is coordinated by FEMA. Contrary to popular belief, FEMA does not take over any local or state functions...nor do they take over the responsibilities or command of any federal agencies. They are a coordinating agency, and it's a very collaborative situation with everybody working together.

In a major storm recovery, all levels of government participate and each has their own specific responsibilities. For example, in Hurricane Andrew, we had some projects funded and controlled by FEMA, some funded federally and by state funds and controlled by state government, some by county government, some by city governments, and even a large component by a big non-profit set up by the business community.

I know that is not what everyone wants to hear, but that's how it works.

You can go back to fighting now...enjoy.

[poohandwendy]

We aren't talking about the evacuation of a few hundred people here, Brenda. It's completely unrealistic to expect a single local or state government to be able to manage something on the massive scale of the evacuation of a major city. They have neither the resources nor the manpower to do so.
I don't think it is unrealistic at all. Who better to manage an evacuation than those who are governing the city and live there? They know the area, they know the resources, they know the people.

What I think the federal govt should do NOW, is to create a federal evacuation plan that is a guideline for city officials to customize to their needs and what would be practical for their area. They need to outline the issues we have learned from other cities who have dealt with massive evacuation and propose ideas of how city govts can put those ideas into action if/when needed. Then the local and state govts can work out the details for their own areas.

And then the local and state govts need to pass along the info to the citizens. IMO, this just needs to become a fact of life for people. Everyone needs to have a plan BEFORE things come crashing down.

Just my thoughts.

[BuckNaked]

Really ? Please point to the major metropolitan American city that has been completely evacuated without federal government assistance.

As far as I know, no major metropolitan area has ever been completely evacuated. But other major cities have always been able to get out the people that needed to be out.

Whether it makes a difference or not, they are required to give assistance and they didn't.

Where did the city or state ever request evacuation assistance? And where do you get the idea that the federal government is required to offer that assistance?

[peachgirl]

In the aftermath of a storm, the entire process is the legal responsibility of the local and state authorities UNLESS they decide they can't handle it and ask for federal help. The federal response is a menu kind of thing, so you can select one type of aid and decline others.

That's not what a little thing called the National Response Plan says.

[ThAnswr]

I don't think it is unrealistic at all. Who better to manage an evacuation than those who are governing the city and live there? They know the area, they know the resources, they know the people.

What I think the federal govt should do NOW, is to create a federal evacuation plan that is a guideline for city officials to customize to their needs and what would be practical for their area. They need to outline the issues we have learned from other cities who have dealt with massive evacuation and propose ideas of how city govts can put those ideas into action if/when needed. Then the local and state govts can work out the details for their own areas.

And then the local and state govts need to pass along the info to the citizens. IMO, this just needs to become a fact of life for people. Everyone needs to have a plan BEFORE things come crashing down.

Just my thoughts.

Would I be out of line if I said your answer sounds like you're saying it should be the responsibility of all three?

Just asking.

[poohandwendy]

Would I be out of line if I said your answer sounds like you're saying it should be the responsibility of all three?

Not at all. They need to work together in the planning stages. Then, when/if a big disaster happens, the chain of command starts with local and then works it's way up to federal if/when the local and state cannot handle it. My point is that we need to come up with planning so that the local and state govts will be able to at least handle immediately before and after a major disaster without total chaos.

[ThAnswr]

What if the cities and states don't do what they can?

Well, then I say "screw 'em"! Let the dead and injured pile up and serve as a warning to those too lazy or too stupid or too old to take responsibility for themselves. Yeah, that'll teach the next disaster victim!

Sorry, couldn't help myself. In fact, I'm so upset with myself, I'm going to give myself a stern lecture and then march myself off to my room for a timeout.

But, before I do that, I have a question: What answer are you looking for?

[poohandwendy]

"What answer are you looking for?"

For petes sake, can we please have a discusson without a childish 'us against them' tone for once?

[ThAnswr]

"What answer are you looking for?"

For petes sake, can we please have a discusson without a childish 'us against them' tone for once?

That would be nice, but I don't believe the purpose of this thread was to share information.

[gina2000]

At the risk of my online life, I'll bite.


No matter what our constitution says, no matter what our framework has been up until this point, we haven't ever had to deal with the massive destruction and chaos that occurred due to Katrina. IF a WTC tower had fallen over rather than collapsed, we may have had the same sort of chaotic response and timing that we did during Katrina's aftermath. I can't think of another scenario where a massive part of a city would be inaccessible for a long enough period of time that emergency people could not get in to aid those in need. Obviously, we need to face this problem head on for the future.

In my opinion, we need to work on a federal, state and local level to prevent anything of this magnitude from ever causing such suffering and strife.

The Federal Government should mandate an Emergency Response division which will work with state and local governments on a regular basis to determine what courses of action can be taken in the event that a natural disaster should strike. This should include evacuation procedures for the poor, the sick and the elderly. This division should work with the state and local officials if a disaster is in the making as well as help in the aftermath with coordination of emergency personnel on a federal, state and local basis. If a disaster does occur, the state should know that they can rely on this division to help expedite emergency food, water and personnel.

As an aside....hi, Bet. I know you won't agree with most of this, but I think the needs of the few outweigh the needs of many in this sort of scenario.

[Pugdog007]

1. The individual
2. Their state and local governments

[ThAnswr]

At the risk of my online life, I'll bite.


No matter what our constitution says, no matter what our framework has been up until this point, we haven't ever had to deal with the massive destruction and chaos that occurred due to Katrina. IF a WTC tower had fallen over rather than collapsed, we may have had the same sort of chaotic response and timing that we did during Katrina's aftermath. I can't think of another scenario where a massive part of a city would be inaccessible for a long enough period of time that emergency people could not get in to aid those in need. Obviously, we need to face this problem head on for the future.

In my opinion, we need to work on a federal, state and local level to prevent anything of this magnitude from ever causing such suffering and strife.

The Federal Government should mandate an Emergency Response division which will work with state and local governments on a regular basis to determine what courses of action can be taken in the event that a natural disaster should strike. This should include evacuation procedures for the poor, the sick and the elderly. This division should work with the state and local officials if a disaster is in the making as well as help in the aftermath with coordination of emergency personnel on a federal, state and local basis. If a disaster does occur, the state should know that they can rely on this division to help expedite emergency food, water and personnel.

As an aside....hi, Bet. I know you won't agree with most of this, but I think the needs of the few outweigh the needs of many in this sort of scenario.

Well said.

[bsnyder]

That would be nice, but I don't believe the purpose of this thread was to share information.

Actually, it was to start a discussion - I don't know the answer I'm looking for. I do know that my community, and many others, are certainly at risk of having a catastrophe like Katrina. If we should do things differently than the way they are presently designed, I'd be all for that.

[poohandwendy]

At the risk of my online life, I'll bite.


No matter what our constitution says, no matter what our framework has been up until this point, we haven't ever had to deal with the massive destruction and chaos that occurred due to Katrina. IF a WTC tower had fallen over rather than collapsed, we may have had the same sort of chaotic response and timing that we did during Katrina's aftermath. I can't think of another scenario where a massive part of a city would be inaccessible for a long enough period of time that emergency people could not get in to aid those in need. Obviously, we need to face this problem head on for the future.

In my opinion, we need to work on a federal, state and local level to prevent anything of this magnitude from ever causing such suffering and strife.

The Federal Government should mandate an Emergency Response division which will work with state and local governments on a regular basis to determine what courses of action can be taken in the event that a natural disaster should strike. This should include evacuation procedures for the poor, the sick and the elderly. This division should work with the state and local officials if a disaster is in the making as well as help in the aftermath with coordination of emergency personnel on a federal, state and local basis. If a disaster does occur, the state should know that they can rely on this division to help expedite emergency food, water and personnel.

As an aside....hi, Bet. I know you won't agree with most of this, but I think the needs of the few outweigh the needs of many in this sort of scenario.I don't see anything wrog with that idea, but I still think that the local and state level would need to be the ones making the determination of whether or not the emergency response division was needed, immediately following a disaster. The only reason I don't think the federal govt should immediately take over from the word go (in a disaster) is because I think the local and state leaders usually have a better idea of what is actually going on and are more familiar with the specifics of their area.

I think most people are in agreement that all levels of govt need to become more prepared, have more intricate plans in place BEFOREHAND and work together when needed.

[Charade]

As an aside....hi, Bet. I know you won't agree with most of this, but I think the needs of the few outweigh the needs of many in this sort of scenario.

If the fate of 100 people is death by rapidly rising waters and 3 people are waiting for transfer to a hospital for emergency life saving care and there is only enough resources available to save the 100, who should be saved?

As hard and sad as it may be, we have to face the fact that in certain situations not everyone can be saved.

[gina2000]

My point is only that in an evacuation procedure, those without resources, the elderly and the sick should be given priority whenever we can because they cannot help themselves. It's unrealistic to expect to be able to save everyone but it is reasonable to try to ensure safety for as many people as possible including those who cannot help themselves.

[BuckNaked]

My point is only that in an evacuation procedure, those without resources, the elderly and the sick should be given priority whenever we can because they cannot help themselves. It's unrealistic to expect to be able to save everyone but it is reasonable to try to ensure safety for as many people as possible including those who cannot help themselves.

I don't know that they should be given priority, but they should certainly be helped by the local government to find a way out. Unfortunately, that didn't happen in this case.

[Charade]

I don't know that they should be given priority, but they should certainly be helped by the local government to find a way out. Unfortunately, that didn't happen in this case.

What I'd like to know is why there were still people in hospitals after the mandatory evacuation was issued? Was there not enough time?

[gina2000]

The fact that the local government would be helping them becomes, in an of itself, a priority situation because they normally would be left to ensure their own safety. Under the current set of conditions, the sick were helped only by the workers that took care of them and the other groups were left to their own devices until some people chose to go to the Dome.

[BuckNaked]

The fact that the local government would be helping them becomes, in an of itself, a priority situation because they normally would be left to ensure their own safety. Under the current set of conditions, the sick were helped only by the workers that took care of them and the other groups were left to their own devices until some people chose to go to the Dome.


I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by priority. Priority for government help, yes. Priority in getting out of town, no.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My point is only that in an evacuation procedure, those without resources, the elderly and the sick should be given priority whenever we can because they cannot help themselves. It's unrealistic to expect to be able to save everyone but it is reasonable to try to ensure safety for as many people as possible including those who cannot help themselves.


I'm not certain I understand this--should they be given priority for assistance to evacuate---okay, sure.

Are they important than my family. No they are not. Nor am I more important than your family, etc etc.

It is unrealistic to save everyone b/c stuff happens. Human error happens. Not enough time happens.

But any plan should at its best try to save as close to 100% as possible. But in a catastrophic event--death will happen.

[gina2000]

The poor, the sick and the elderly should be given priority in that they should be getting assistance from the local government to evacuate. Normally, governments leave it up to individuals to make their plans to evacuate. If the local government aids them in evacuation, the government is giving them priority because they are helping one or more sets of individuals rather than all individuals.

I must be speaking greek today.

Okay, Buck, you got it.

[Talking Hands]

I asked "who's responsible for the safety and well being of the folks living along our coasts"?

I could just as easily said "who's in charge of the safety and well being of the folks...."

They're synonymous, in this context.

So, who do you think should be "in charge" and "responsible" for evacuating the nursing homes in your area?

FEMA?
Jeb?
Charlotte County officals?
The nursing homes should have a plan in place if they are in an evacuation zone. The county government should have a plan in place to help if needed. FEMA is for after not the initial evacuation. Jeb. Really he is only one man even if he is the governor. Once he declares and emergency and orders that evacuation start it is up to the local officials unless they ask for help. I know Miami Beach has a plan to get everyone off the beach in the event of a storm as does the City of Miami. Now if you are in unincorporated Dade I don't know that they have a real plan but I have never checked because we aren't and evacuatiion zone.