FEMA is a bunch of thevies

[zurgswife]

So a buddy drops of some stuff that is either going to a friends drive for Katrina evauees or to the Church's supply drive for the Gulf. He is an executive with a company that clears and repairs power lines for utilities. This is one Big Company, ever see orange trucks cutting trees away from power lines? They got thousands of those trucks.

So he said they had crews, trucks, fuel, water, communications, food for the crews etc. staged ahead of time. They do a lot of storm work. hey the storm is gonna hit someplace and that someplace is gonna need the lines fixed. So they stage stuff to be ready and the were rolling early last week. These are smart guys.

So the trucks get to where the damage is and FEMA confiscates all their water, fuel, crew food, some equipment..... apparently the utility companies had their fuel taken too.

Today the "John Wayne" dude general is on TV asking for the private sector to come fix the utility infrastructure, in a kind condescending way IHMO. You Dude, they showed up and FEMA took the stuff they needed to do their jobs because unlike the Feds they prepared and got there early.

Now this guy did say they were getting some work done but the crews are woring forn the outside of the storm damage in because they can't keep the supplies if the go where the worst damage is.


They will never get this place fixed with the government doing this kind of crap!!!

[Lisa loves Pooh]

If they used it for themselves--then thieves yes.

Someone was saying they have the power to comandeer things someone was saying.

But how crappy of them to do it whether they legally could or not.

(And I'm sure the general didn't know about it :)).

[crazyforgoofy]

Holy cow! I'm amazed at the cajones of that bunch! But am glad your friend and his company continue to do what's needed.

FEMA has the full power of the federal government behind it but simply didn't do the job. What a shame and what a mess. It has cost lives and the safety and sanity of untold numbers of people.

[Bunch24]

FEMA - Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Aren't they supposed to manage the relief efforts? If they confiscate food, water and supplies, wouldn't that be part of their job?

Are you going to get mad at the cops who are syphoning gas out of abandoned vehicles? Are you going to get mad at the cops who were confiscating abandoned generators to bring to hospitals?

Like it or not, FEMA is in charge there, not the big orange trucks or Acadian Ambulance or even the National Guard. FEMA is running the show, and last I checked, the city was pretty much cleared and they're continuing the clean up efforts.

Me thinks too many people believe that the whole pixie dust thing reallly works. It's going to take a whole lotta elbow grease and patience to clean this up, not a wave of the wand. They've been saying all along that this process will take months, years.

[JimMIA]

I REALLY doubt the veracity of that story.

[Belle1962]

When he ordered the evacuation of NO Last Sunday, even the Mayor hinted at the ability of his (local) government to confiscate any items needed for relief efforts (he specifically mentioned private boats that may be needed and skirted around the issue of "other buildings" in the area that may be needed/used). I can't remember the exact words he used to be pc in saying it but the gist was if they needed it they were using it. I had to explain to my son why the government has that ability.

[zurgswife]

I REALLY doubt the veracity of that story.


Excuse me why would you doubt the veacity of the story???? (There is another poster on another board who posted her cousin works for the company and told a similar tail, I'll see if she will come post it here)

Yes, FEMA has the government behind them to do any thing they want...but how are they going to clean up this mess if they confisacte stuff from the people are coming to help clean the damn mess up...they are never going to get anything accomplished....

[crazyforgoofy]

If FEMA officials were there why didn't THEY have the stuff they needed? Why weren't they prepared if a utility company from Pennsylvania could get there with equipment and supplies. Why did they need to confiscate the supplies utility companies need to do their jobs? They're FEMA, they're supposed to MANAGE their resources not take them from the people who are trying to turn the freakin lights back on.

[Zurg]

I REALLY doubt the veracity of that story.

Well the guy in question is a memebr of the board of directors of the company. He stopped at our house to drop off stuff to send to a DIS member who is trying to help evacuated kids in Texas get stuff to go to school, Ya know clothing backpackes etc. I have know him for 30 years, never heard one word that wasn't 100% accurate.

Now he understands that if the troops need stuff they need stuff and it isn't as bad now as it was last week but bottom line is that FEMA is taking the stuff from the utilities and their storm work contractors.

But if the leaders are going on TV and asking for the private sector to step up when FEMA uses it power to take everything the private sector needs to do it job when they show up, then I think what we are getting from the leaders is a bunch of stuff we are not allowed to say on the DIS. You may have heard of CYA?

So you doubt the veracity of that - well it is true. You can choose to doubt it. But just exactly what has any level of government show in this situation that would make you think they are on the ball here?

[Free4Life11]

When they "comandeer" things do they pay the companies for it?

[Zurg]

..if a utility company from Pennsylvania could get there with equipment and supplies.

In fairness it is a national well international company. They do a lot of storm work and prepair for huricains - They are gonna hit someplace that has powerlines and these guys have the equipment, people and management skills to help fix the lines and get paid for it.

[totalia]

Wow. Thats horrible. Interesting, its ok to steal supplies from citizens but not ok for the feds to enter a gvt area without consulting and gaining approval from the local gvt first during a life or death situation when it could save lives.

Does that seem wrong to anyone else?

[FroggyinArk]

we have a similar situation with a local contractor that subs to the same big orange (german name right?) trucks.. he carried two crews over to hattiesburg, and the first crew, was hit up to give over their extra fuel, ( that they had trucked over from here to run saws/ generators/ etc) and the second crew did not take travel trailers to stay in, because they were warned that those might b e confiscated by fema so they carried tents and are setting up camp in a guys private field with access to his showers etc.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Wow. Thats horrible. Interesting, its ok to steal supplies from citizens but not ok for the feds to enter a gvt area without consulting and gaining approval from the local gvt first during a life or death situation when it could save lives.

Does that seem wrong to anyone else?

I think they can commandeer in the disaster area---not come to my house and take my minivan. I'm sure there are several much closer to the area that they can take.

But I could be wrong.


The disaster area is in 3 states. It seems the govt access was a problem in Louisiana. Not sure about Missisippi and Alabama.

And not sure how close to the zone the utility trucks were located.

I always find it odd when they commandeer things from people who need it themselves. It isn't like McD's is opening and they can hop on through the drive through.

I'd also hate to think that in the zone--I stock up supplies for my family...that htey can come and take them from us. B/c hello--where do we get fresh supplies--and if we could get them from there...then FEMA could too.

[JimMIA]

Excuse me why would you doubt the veacity of the story???? (There is another poster on another board who posted her cousin works for the company and told a similar tail, I'll see if she will come post it here)A lot of reasons. But don't get me wrong. I have absolutely no reason to doubt that someone told you such a tale, or that you read such a tale on the internet. A lot of people tell "tails" during big events like this...to get attention, to make themselves seem more important than they really are, etc, etc. I'm just saying it is not believable. We all need to not be too gullible, and we should view stuff like this with a critical eye.

First of all, I find it incredibly odd that the "tail" may have appeared on two Internet discussion boards, yet it escaped the attention of the entire news media.

I find it impossible to believe that thousands of highly trained news media professionals - who gather information, innuendo, and rumors for a living - working 24/7 with virtually limitless resources - who would KILL for a story such as this if it were true - all failed to uncover this incredible travesty.

I've worked with those folks, and believe me they are like sharks with blood in the water when they sense a good story. If there was even a shred of a half-truth to that "tail," the news media would be screaming at the top of their lungs.

Secondly, "another poster (unidentified) on another board (unidentified) who posted her cousin (unidentified) works for the company (unidentified) and told a similar 'tail'" is hardly a credible source of information about anything. You're saying that you read somewhere...that someone you don't even know...said they have a cousin you don't know...who they claim told them about the alleged incident.

I have no doubt that you read what you read; I just don't believe it's true.

I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift. No offense, but it's just not a believable story.

[N.Bailey]

I don't doubt the story for one 2nd and all I can do is shake my head at FEMA's actions. I understand they have the authority to commandeer anything they wish, but that doesn't mean they should and it doesn't make it right.

[WebmasterKathy]

Actually, the Zurgs indicated that they were told this directly, face-to-face, by a friend who is on the board of directors of the company in question.

Although infuriating, I have no reason to doubt the truth of the story. And I certainly do not doubt the veracity of the Zurgs.

[Free4Life11]

Does anyone know, if they comandeer supplies do they pay them back?

I heard they are spending $500,000,000 a day....I'd LOVE to see their financial statements (out of interest as an accounting student)! I am studying accounting now and can't imagine spending so much money a day, must be a nightmare for the FEMA accounting department! Goooooddd night!

Imagine if you had to AUDIT them...:earseek:

[Zurg]

I've worked with those folks, and believe me they are like sharks with blood in the water when they sense a good story. If there was even a shred of a half-truth to that "tail," the news media would be screaming at the top of their lungs.

Well you are free to believe what you want.

I assume you are as sharp as the sharks you swim with.

Me? I believe the media sit around at press conferances and hashes out what they have been spoon fed.

So In short you trust the media, the same people who reported that New Orleand dodged a bullet just before it flooded. The same media who run photos of swamped NO school busses but don't ask why those very busses were not used to evacuate people just as the state emergancy documents envision.

Your free to beleive what you want, just as I am free to think that the sharks you so proudly swim with are bottom feeding cat fish.

[Zurg]

Does anyone know, if they comandeer supplies do they pay them back?

Well I assume so. It is part of the constiution, as I recall it is refered to as the "Taking Clause" part of the 5th amemdment.

...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[Christine]

I'm not trying "take up" for FEMA now because I don't know the back story, but in listening to James Witt (the old FEMA director) he has said that since 9/11 and the invention of Homeland Security, FEMA has pretty much been dissected and broken up--really just a shell of what the once were. The have been moved under Homeland Security and are no longer an independent agency. Basically, most of their power has been stripped. Of course, everyone still thinks of FEMA in an emergency and now they are expected to do what they've always done, yet they are apparently very broken and disorganized in their current organziation.

[zurgswife]

Hello??? How do you take the first statment I made and turn it into the statement you made???

So a buddy drops of some stuff that is either going to a friends drive for Katrina evauees or to the Church's supply drive for the Gulf. He is an executive with a company that clears and repairs power lines for utilities. This is one Big Company, ever see orange trucks cutting trees away from power lines? They got thousands of those trucks.

You're saying that you read somewhere...that someone you don't even know...said they have a cousin you don't know...who they claim told them about the alleged incident.

I got the info from a Executive/Member of the Board of Directors of the Family owned company, I did not read it any where.

The part about the cousin was to back up what I was saying. That this person posted an independent post stating a similar experience. I've PM'd this person to post it here, as they board they posted it on is where alot of DISers also hang, so I figure they also post here....

[JimMIA]

And I certainly do not doubt the veracity of the Zurgs.Nor do I, Kathy. In fact, in my posts, I specifically said I had no doubt they heard what they said they heard. If you or they got that from my posts, you need to go back and re-read them.

Nor do I make personal comments about the Zurg's postings. I worked with a lot of news media personnel during my law enforcement career. They weren't my pals; I'm not a fan. In fact, I'm very skeptical of them -- not because of their skills, but because of their bias. Pick your news channel and you've picked your bias.

But I recognize their abilities -- they are very good at the things they are good at. And one of the things they are very, very good at is detecting stories like this one. Believe me, if anything remotely like what this thread really happened, they would have found out about it long ago and would have broadcast it.

[kilee]

Siphoning gas out of abandoned cars is one thing. These are rescue workers coming to help. I would think that by having their own supplies they wouldn't be a drain on FEMA and other rescue agencies. If they just showed up no food, no water, no gas. Well there's another dozen mouths to feed and shelter to give. I really don't understand the logic to this or much of what has happened thus far. I was and have been a Bush supporter, but more and more lately I have to shake my head and wonder what his problem is..... :confused3

[DawnCt1]

FEMA - Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Aren't they supposed to manage the relief efforts? If they confiscate food, water and supplies, wouldn't that be part of their job?

Are you going to get mad at the cops who are syphoning gas out of abandoned vehicles? Are you going to get mad at the cops who were confiscating abandoned generators to bring to hospitals?

Like it or not, FEMA is in charge there, not the big orange trucks or Acadian Ambulance or even the National Guard. FEMA is running the show, and last I checked, the city was pretty much cleared and they're continuing the clean up efforts.

Me thinks too many people believe that the whole pixie dust thing reallly works. It's going to take a whole lotta elbow grease and patience to clean this up, not a wave of the wand. They've been saying all along that this process will take months, years.


Exactly, and the magic word is???? ...COORDINATION.

[JimMIA]

Let me give a challenge to anyone who actually believes this story.

I sincerely don't mean this personally, and if I've offended anyone, I apologize...but you just can't let wild stories like this circulate unverified.

Here's the challenge:
If you even think the story might be true...call the regular broadcast networks, CNN, MSNBC, and Fox and give them the information in the original post. You may be able to contact them via the Web if you prefer.

OP wisely chose not to identify the company, and neither will I, but if you give the business they are in and the color of the trucks, the media supersleuths will be able to figure it out.

Don't hand OP up and mention the member of the company's board unless you get her personal prior approval to do so. That will only create needless aggravation for her when the media calls the company. She posted the information here completely in good faith, so please don't violate her confidence. If she gives you the okay, that's fine, but please respect her right not to release that info to the media -- they don't need it anyway to verify the story.

Just tell the media that there are reports from two different sources -- one a company exec, and the other a worker bee -- with the same tale of woe...and you thought they'd like to know.

If the story is true, we will hear it on the news by tomorrow night.

If that happens, I'll personally eat crow and apologize to everyone here.

[HaleyB]

FEMA is a bunch of theives. They are also a few worse things than that.

I don't understand how anyone could doubt this story after hearing all the lies from FEMA and DHS this week.

We have some big cleaning up to do, not just in the gulf states.

[totalia]

I think the whole gvt has some explaining and cleaning up to do. This just showed that the country is definately not ready for any kind real terrorist attack.

[zurgswife]

Let me give a challenge to anyone who actually believes this story.

I sincerely don't mean this personally, and if I've offended anyone, I apologize...but you just can't let wild stories like this circulate unverified.

Here's the challenge:
If you even think the story might be true...call the regular broadcast networks, CNN, MSNBC, and Fox and give them the information in the original post. You may be able to contact them via the Web if you prefer.

OP wisely chose not to identify the company, and neither will I, but if you give the business they are in and the color of the trucks, the media supersleuths will be able to figure it out.

Don't hand OP up and mention the member of the company's board unless you get her personal prior approval to do so. That will only create needless aggravation for her when the media calls the company. She posted the information here completely in good faith, so please don't violate her confidence. If she gives you the okay, that's fine, but please respect her right not to release that info to the media -- they don't need it anyway to verify the story.

Just tell the media that there are reports from two different sources -- one a company exec, and the other a worker bee -- with the same tale of woe...and you thought they'd like to know.

If the story is true, we will hear it on the news by tomorrow night.

If that happens, I'll personally eat crow and apologize to everyone here.

Done....I know it's true because there is no reason company officials would lie to a personal friend about such an incident. If it turns up on the news then you will know it is true, if not it really doesn't matter to me...

[Geoff_M]

A couple of points and questions:

1) Was this company's effort a "for profit" operation. Meaning, were they going down there to help, but turn a profit at the same time. When east-central Indiana was hit with a ice storm of biblical proportions last winter, "for profit" tree services came in (seperate from utility trucks from other areas offering mutual aid) and billed people (as would be their right to do) for removing trees from properties. I just want to understand the nature of what their intent was.

2) FEMA.... People keep talking about "their" (FEMA's) resources. FEMA doesn't own warehouses of boats, nor warehouses of bucket trucks, nor fleets of helicopters. They have to find them through local agencies, the military, and other "in theater" resources.

3) People need to make up their minds what they want FEMA to do. People have been shouting for FEMA to "do something" to fix this "failed" effort "ASAP". Red tape is to be ignored, things need to be cut to the chase. Do it, and do it now! If FEMA sees a whole fleet of bucket trucks and fully equipt tree crews in the region who are there to mainly help billable customers... and FEMA thinks they can he used for the greater good by re-directing them via "commendeering" to work on the areas that need the work done pronto (but work the company can't just hand an invoice to)... then why are people being critical about what FEMA did.

What is it people fear FEMA is doing with the trucks and fuel? Selling it on the black market and pocketing the money?

4) If I'm wrong about the profit motive for them being down there, and they were down there for humanitarian efforts, then what's the big problem with being pulled into the FEMA resource pool. FEMA is more likely to know where they would be most needed.

5) "Stealing"... I think it's safe to say that the company will get their trucks back from FEMA along with a nice check.

[N.Bailey]

A couple of points and questions:

1) Was this company's effort a "for profit" operation. Meaning, were they going down there to help, but turn a profit at the same time. When east-central Indiana was hit with a ice storm of biblical proportions last winter, "for profit" tree services came in (seperate from utility trucks from other areas offering mutual aid) and billed people (as would be their right to do) for removing trees from properties. I just want to understand the nature of what their intent was.

2) FEMA.... People keep talking about "their" (FEMA's) resources. FEMA doesn't own warehouses of boats, nor warehouses of bucket trucks, nor fleets of helicopters. They have to find them through local agencies, the military, and other "in theater" resources.

3) People need to make up their minds what they want FEMA to do. People have been shouting for FEMA to "do something" to fix this "failed" effort "ASAP". Red tape is to be ignored, things need to be cut to the chase. Do it, and do it now! If FEMA sees a whole fleet of bucket trucks and fully equipt tree crews in the region who are there to mainly help billable customers... and FEMA thinks they can he used for the greater good by re-directing them via "commendeering" to work on the areas that need the work done pronto (but work the company can't just hand an invoice to)... then why are people being critical about what FEMA did.

What is it people fear FEMA is doing with the trucks and fuel? Selling it on the black market and pocketing the money?

4) If I'm wrong about the profit motive for them being down there, and they were down there for humanitarian efforts, then what's the big problem with being pulled into the FEMA resource pool. FEMA is more likely to know where they would be most needed.

5) "Stealing"... I think it's safe to say that the company will get their trucks back from FEMA along with a nice check.

I did not read in the OP anywhere that their trucks were commandeered. Here is what was stated that was taken:


So the trucks get to where the damage is and FEMA confiscates all their water, fuel, crew food, some equipment..... apparently the utility companies had their fuel taken too.


Of course they have the authority to take whatever they want. No one is questioning that. If they're looking for help however, how do you suggest outside crews are able to go in and do any job when all this is taken from them?

They have the resources of the American government. Why can't their own supplies be shipped in? This certainly isn't a week ago. A week ago it might have been more acceptable.

[wvrevy]

Nomenclature and apologists aside, if you don't believe this story, you simply don't know what FEMA is empowered to do. In a state of emergency, FEMA is perhaps THE single most powerful agency within our government. In an emergency, FEMA becomes the government...which is why those apologizing for their failure by trying to blame local officials are, pardon the pun, all wet. Here are a few of FEMA's powers, all granted by executive order, not provided constitutionally:

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

So whether you choose to believe they didn't do what has been claimed or not, they absolutely have the authority to do so. The only debate should be whether they were correct in excercising that authority in this particular situation.

[JimMIA]

Geoff,

The company is definitely a for-profit company. Their bread and butter business is keeping trees trimmed back from power lines, I presume under contract with the electric utilities and phone companies. I'm not sure what their geographic scope is, but they're a big, well-known company.

In disaster situations, they are often contracted to come in and remove downed trees, which have to be removed before the utility companies can restore service.

They get paid for that, but I have to tell you -- having been through a few of these things -- that it's not just money in anybody's pockets. That part of their work is really a special thing to these guys and the utility guys, and they really work their butts off. All of those folks go WAY out of their way in an emergency situation, and I don't know what we'd do without them.

Katrina hit us as a barely Cat 1 storm, but we had 1.45 million people without power in South Florida. Within about 4 days, Florida Power and Light had about 80% of us back up, and they had virtually everybody back up within 8-9 days. That's pretty amazing, and it doesn't happen just because somebody's getting paid to do a job.

[Geoff_M]

I did not read in the OP anywhere that their trucks were commandeered.I must have read that too fast. I saw the part about "equipment" and thought they meant the trucks too.

Of course they have the authority to take whatever they want. No one is questioning that. If they're looking for help however, how do you suggest outside crews are able to go in and do any job when all this is taken from them?Well, if the items were redirected to help an effort that FEMA deemed more critical then the billable work (assuming that was their MO) they what they were looking to do, then what's the problem?

I'm not trying "take up" for FEMA now because I don't know the back story, but in listening to James Witt...Funny, FEMA got pretty good marks in their response to the series of hurricane "body blows" that Florida took last year. If I'm not mistaken, FEMA was in it's current configuration back then too. Mr. Witt seems to suggest that FEMA in the last 12 months somehow "forgot" how to handle hurricane relief. Mr. Witt may deserve a lot of credit for turning FEMA around after its much panned performance after Andrew, but never in his tenure at the agency was he faced with what FEMA has had to deal with in the last week.

Mr. Witt has also been hired a as consultant to the Governor of Louisiana. As one person said on the news tonight. "A lot of politicians down here have learned that you can get a lot of mileage out of blaming stuff on FEMA."

They get paid for that, but I have to tell you -- having been through a few of these things -- that it's not just money in anybody's pockets. That part of their work is really a special thing to these guys and the utility guys, and they really work their butts off. All of those folks go WAY out of their way in an emergency situation, and I don't know what we'd do without them.I'm not suggesting that these guys are un-needed, lazy, or the equivilent of war-profiteers. My point was that if you show up in "the zone" with stuff FEMA thinks it needs more than you do for a job that's more important at the moment then what you're doing... it's gonna be re-directed. I'm sure there's a process to get re-imbursed once the dust settles.

Before people get too out of joint about this, perhaps it would be a good idea to find out what exactly the supplies were re-directed towards.

[zurgswife]

They are for profit. The are typically hired by the utility companies to aid them in tree trimming the lines. During storm work they work to remove the debris so the utitlity companies can get in as soon as possible to make the repairs. They are an international company and probably do about 75% of the storm removal in the US. They were hired by the utility companies to come in and aid in the repairing of electricity like every other storm we have had for decades. This is nothing new. It's just that FEMA didn't have there own supplies so the commendeered this company's. Which stopped them from starting there much needed work.

[Geoff_M]

It's just that FEMA didn't have there own supplies so the commendeered this company's. Which stopped them from starting there much needed work.They're dealing with an area the size of Great Britain... they may not have stockpiles of fuel at every location. Again, we don't know what work the supplies to re-directed to. If we did, then there might be something to judge this all by. I doubt it's the case here, but for example if the effort that the items were re-directed towards was levee repair, would that be so outrageous? How about getting food and water to people that needed it?

[Zurg]

Geoff,

.. these guys and the utility guys, and they really work their butts off. All of those folks go WAY out of their way in an emergency situation, and I don't know what we'd do without them. .

Thanks for that. I agree. I know that the guys who run the company have very strong feelings about being useful to society. I am very proud to have them as friends.

This was the point of the original post (I wrote it on another board but the wife copied it here and added the thieves part):

John Wayne kinda guy General is in TV with two big shot FEMA guys. He is calling on private sector to come down and help out, specifically with fuel and utilities. He was IHMO kind rude and condescending about it. Making it sound like he and FEMA are doing a great job but the private sector needs to step up. (raise you hand if you think any level of Government responded well here. See them quickly stand up and help the cops and firemem in NO - me neither)

So then I hear from my friend with thousands of Orange trucks, that they staged what they would need to get in start doing their job, went in to get started but when they got there FEMA took the stuff. It was most common last week but they still are having stuff taken.

OK if they need it for another priority fine. Hey if the troops need it OK go for it. BUT Then don't be on TV blasting the private sector for not helping out if you are taking they stuff they need to do their gig.

You want communications back? most is on wires and needs power and both need the utility people doing there thing.

I don't expect them to run to CNN and complain, that is what a politician would do, they are not politicians, I expect them to ship more stuff and have crew drive a few hours for fuel instead of cutting trees and work it out. It will take longer and be harder but that is what they do. Very well.

A friend, in the area, on another board said they just did her street and the trees are out of the way. She was so happy she made the crew brownies. I'll pass that on to the my friends wife who I work with on a charity auction. She is the one who had her husband drop off all the extra back packs they have 'cause one of our fellow DIS people in Texas want them for kids in her school that were evacuated and don't have back pack.

To be honest I find conversations like this draining and pointless and that why I don't DIS much anymore, too much debating.

[Geoff_M]

Hey if the troops need it OK go for it. BUT Then don't be on TV blasting the private sector for not helping out if you are taking they stuff they need to do their gig.I think that part of the problem is that people keep taking individual situations and then applying them across the whole disaster. People took the awful situation at the NO Convention Center and applied it mentally across the whole three state area. I doubt your friends company's presence down there has gone un-noted by FEMA. I doubt they have been told to "go home". For all your friend knows FEMA will pull back up in a day or two with a load of fuel and provisions and then tell them to "go nuts" on the trees and lines. I don't think your friend is a liar, I just think we don't have all the info needed before getting indignant and blasting FEMA.

[JimMIA]

wvrevy...

Are you sure about those Exec Order numbers?

I looked those up in the National Archives and got differing info. As a matter of fact, I think they have almost all been revoked.

11921 was issued by Gerald Ford in 1976, and mentions the Office of Emergency Preparedness (not FEMA, although it may be the predecessor of FEMA). However, it looks like a "housekeeping" order, changing the Table of Contents, names of various units of government, saying this agency should follow guidance from that one, etc. I haven't read the thing thoroughly, but it doesn't look like anything that confers broad powers on any agency.

11049 is just wrong...I'm guessing a number transposition. That one actually provides implementation steps for something called the "Public Works Acceleration Act." Again, signed by JFK in 1962. I believe the correct number is 11490, as shown below.

10990, 10995, 10997, 10998, 11000, 11001, 11002, 11003, 11004, and 11005 were issued by JFK in Feb 1962. 11310 was issued in October 1966 by LBJ. Those all mention the topics you cited, but they were all revoked by 11490 by Nixon in Oct 1969, and that EO was revoked in 1988 by Reagan.

You might want to double check the numbers or your source.

[Bunch24]

So In short you trust the media, the same people who reported that New Orleand dodged a bullet just before it flooded.

Not to nit-pick, but what the media reported was true. Had Katrina hit New Orleans dead on and not 20 miles to the east, we wouldn't have seen evacuations. The Superdome probably wouldn't be standing, and neither would any buildings in New Orleans.

As of today, New Orleans is still salvageable. Had Katrina's eye passed directly across New Orleans, it would have been flattened and everyone left behind in the city would have perished.

[Planogirl]

I already posted the complete article from the AP wires on an earlier thread but this is a condensed version:
Managers at two French Quarter hotels teamed up to hire 10 buses to carry their 500 guests to safer ground, but federal officials commandeered the vehicles and told the guests to go to the convention center with other evacuees, one of the managers said.

It'll be interesting to see if these people are reimbursed. I'd also like to know why it's not just as important for tourists to get out of New Orleans as anyone else.

[Bunch24]

I already posted the complete article from the AP wires on an earlier thread but this is a condensed version:


It'll be interesting to see if these people are reimbursed. I'd also like to know why it's not just as important for tourists to get out of New Orleans as anyone else.

Some of the problems tourists ran into was getting flights out of the city. And from what I've heard, rental car companies rented out their fleet in a 8-hour span. I saw one report that a group of tourists trapped in a hotel got together and called a bus company and rented a bus to pick them up. The bus was redirected to the Superdome instead.

Of course, that was before the flood, when some people still had power/phones.

Not to mention, at some point, state police shut down all routes leaving New Orleans. The early winds were strong enough to rock the bridges, and officials felt it safest to just close in the city and have everyone ride out the storm.

The investigations to follow this will all be interesting, but right now, everyone's focus should be on restoring this great city, not arguing about who's at fault. We won't know the results of an investigation until after the city's rebuilt, so nobody's gonna get fired (or impeached) now.

[Planogirl]

I guess the point is that FEMA wants everyone out of the city but then they commandeer buses that are taking people out. Then later they urge volunteers to come and help restore power and so on but then take equipment when those volunteers arrive to do so.

It just doesn't make any sense.

[N.Bailey]

I already posted the complete article from the AP wires on an earlier thread but this is a condensed version:


It'll be interesting to see if these people are reimbursed. I'd also like to know why it's not just as important for tourists to get out of New Orleans as anyone else.

I can't verify that it's true, but I heard these buses cost $25,000 too.

[zurgswife]

I can't verify that it's true, but I heard these buses cost $25,000 too.

They had one of the tourists interviewed on CNN and the person gave that number also...don't know if it was true but that is the number that was given.

[wvrevy]

From the Wikipedia article regarding FEMA:

Some of the actions FEMA can take in emergency situations, as authorized by Presidential executive orders are:

* allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
* allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
* allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
* allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
* allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
* allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
* allows to designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
* allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
* allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned if contaminated beyond reasonable means of decontamination, and establish new locations for populations.
* allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
* allows them to specify the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
* allows them to grant authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.
* allows them to assign emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.
* allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation.


Not sure about the numbers, because I got them from another source. But according to every bit of information I have been able to find, the information above is accurate.

[seashoreCM]

Either the events described happened or did not happen. If the events did happen that will put a chilling effect on private disaster relief in the future and lead to many more questions, "Why did help not come sooner?"

The moral of the story is, in case of disaster, if at all possible get away and/or stay away.

There could also be marauders and looters holed up in the house next door.

There was at least one news account of people offering support and help told not to "self-deploy".

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

[wvrevy]

The moral of the story is, in case of disaster, get away and/or stay away.

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

And to a person living paycheck to paycheck, no car, no out-of-state family to stay with even if they could find a way to get there, and no savings...how exactly would you recommend they go about doing that ?

[seashoreCM]

And to a person living paycheck to paycheck, no car, no out-of-state family to stay with even if they could find a way to get there, and no savings...how exactly would you recommend they go about doing that ?
They have nothing that FEMA would want to commandeer or confiscate so as to leave them more stranded than they already were.

(copied from another post)
What would have happened or did happen to persons without cars who took the city bus as far as they could from downtown New Orleans? I know it goes to the airport (at least in 1984 when I rode said bus) where people would undoubtedly seek shelter inside.

[wvrevy]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referring to in your post before you edited it.

But still, they are requesting aid from private companies, which was the original poster's point. This particular private company tried to come in and help, and all they got for their trouble was their food, fuel, and supplies taken by FEMA, effectively ending any prospect of this company helping out.

[JimMIA]

From the Wikipedia article regarding FEMA:



Not sure about the numbers, because I got them from another source. But according to every bit of information I have been able to find, the information above is accurate.For anyone who is interested in knowing what FEMA really does, here is the actual text of the FEMA part of Executive Order 12656, which spells out the responsibilities of all federal agencies involved in emergency and disaster management. The order was issued by President Reagan on November 18, 1988 and it combines, revokes, and supercedes the orders wvrevy mentioned. It is still in effect and provides the legal foundation for everything any federal government agency does in a disaster or other national emergency.

The source is FEMA's website, and a link to the full text of the actual document, detailing the responsibilities of ALL federal government entities is here: http://www.fema.gov/library/eo12656.shtm

"PART 17--FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY

SEC. 1701. Lead Responsibilities. In addition to the applicable responsibilities covered in Parts 1 and 2, the Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency shall:

Coordinate and support the initiation, development, and implementation of national security emergency preparedness programs and plans among Federal departments and agencies;


Coordinate the development and implementation of plans for the operation and continuity of essential domestic emergency functions of the Federal Government during national security emergencies;


Coordinate the development of plans, in cooperation with the Secretary of Defense, for mutual civil-military support during national security emergencies;


Guide and assist State and local governments and private sector organizations in achieving preparedness for national security emergencies, including development of plans and procedures for assuring continuity of government, and support planning for prompt and coordinated Federal assistance to States and localities in responding to national security emergencies;


Provide the President a periodic assessment of Federal, State, and local capabilities to respond to national security emergencies;


Coordinate the implementation of policies and programs for efficient mobilization of Federal, State, local, and private sector resources in response to national security emergencies;


Develop and coordinate with all appropriate agencies civil defense programs to enhance Federal, State, local, and private sector capabilities for national security emergency crisis management, population protection, and recovery in the event of an attack on the United States;


Develop and support public information, education and training programs to assist Federal, State, and local government and private sector entities in planning for and implementing national security emergency preparedness programs;


Coordinate among the heads of Federal, State, and local agencies the planning, conduct, and evaluation of national security emergency exercises;


With the assistance of the heads of other appropriate Federal departments and agencies, develop and maintain capabilities to assess actual attack damage and residual recovery capabilities as well as capabilities to estimate the effects of potential attacks on the Nation;


Provide guidance to the heads of Federal departments and agencies on the appropriate use of defense production authorities, including resource clemency, in order to improve the capability of industry and infrastructure systems to meet national security emergency needs;


Assist the Secretary of State in coordinating the formulation and implementation of United States policy for NATO and other allied civil emergency planning, including the provision of:


advice and assistance to the departments and agencies in alliance civil emergency planning matters;


support to the United States Mission to NATO in the conduct of day-to-day civil emergency planning activities; and


support facilities for NATO Civil Wartime Agencies in cooperation with the Departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, State, and Transportation.
SEC. 1702. Support Responsibilities. The Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency shall:

Support the heads of other Federal departments and agencies in preparing plans and programs to discharge their national security emergency preparedness responsibilities, including, but not limited to, such programs as mobilization preparedness, continuity of government planning, and continuance of industry and infrastructure functions essential to national security;


Support the Secretary of Energy, the Secretary of Defense, and the Members of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in developing plans and capabilities for identifying, analyzing, mitigating, and responding to emergencies related to nuclear weapons, materials, and devices, including mobile and fixed nuclear facilities, by providing, inter alia, off-site coordination;


Support the Administrator of General Services in efforts to promote a government-wide program with respect to Federal buildings and installations to minimize the effects of attack and establish shelter management organizations."

[ByTheSea]

to be specific, 12656 was amended by executive order 13286

Without prejudice to subsections (a) through (i) of this section, all responsibilities
assigned to specific Federal officials pursuant to Executive Order
12656 that are substantially the same as any responsibility assigned to,
or function transferred to, the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant
to the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (regardless of whether such responsibility
or function is expressly required to be carried out through another
official of the Department of Homeland Security or not pursuant to such
Act), or intended or required to be carried out by an agency or an agency
component transferred to the Department of Homeland Security pursuant
to such Act, are hereby reassigned to the Secretary of Homeland Security.

[wvrevy]

I'm sorry...so, what in that actually "revokes or supercedes" any of the prior EO's that had been issued regarding the responsibilities and emergency powers that FEMA is charged with ? :confused3

And yes, a lot of their responsibilities have been taken on / over by the Homeland Security department...which is why it was ludicrous when people immediately started blaming the local governments for the lack of response. In a state of emergency, the Homeland Security department, and to a lesser degree FEMA, has the power to pretty much do as they please.

[d-r]

here's something interesting-

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

[JimMIA]

I'm sorry...so, what in that actually "revokes or supercedes" any of the prior EO's that had been issued regarding the responsibilities and emergency powers that FEMA is charged with ? :confused3 Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to start one of those silly contests where we both get wet here. ;)

What I was trying to gently point out was that your source is an Internet encyclopedia that anyone can edit. I could go there and edit those passages to say anything I want. Instead of relying on a source like that, I was gently trying to suggest that you go and look at the actual documents, and see for yourself what they really say.

If you had, here's what you would find. The numbers you cited do, in fact, discuss the powers you talk about, but not one of them has a thing in the world to do with FEMA. The original set of EOs was initiated in February 1962 and set the framework for the U.S. government's response in the event of an all-out nuclear war with Russia. They give the Transportation Department the authority to take over roads and highways; the FCC can take over all communications media; the FAA can take over all airports and aircraft; Agriculture can take over all food distribution, etc, etc. Not one word of any of those EO's gives any powers to FEMA. FEMA wasn't even in existance until 17 years later. Wikipedia is incorrect.

If you click on the link I gave you above, you will see all of the responsibilities of each government department in emergencies, and you will clearly see that FEMA's main role is to coordinate...not dictate.

And yes, a lot of their responsibilities have been taken on / over by the Homeland Security department...which is why it was ludicrous when people immediately started blaming the local governments for the lack of response. In a state of emergency, the Homeland Security department, and to a lesser degree FEMA, has the power to pretty much do as they please.Right. That's what ByTheSea is talking about. FEMA, along with many other government agencies, was merged together to form DHS. FEMA is one of several dozen governmental agencies comprising DHS -- they're not separate, FEMA is one of the component parts.

I don't criticize local authorities. Not because I don't know they screwed up, but because there is no point at this juncture to criticize any governmental agency. We don't know what happened yet.

Once the emergency phase of this nightmare is behind us, I'm sure there will be a thorough top to bottom review of every phone call, every NHC warning, every iota of this whole disaster. When that is done -- and I predict that it will be done in a thoroughly professional, detailed, and non-partisan manner by everyone involved -- there will be a TON of blame for local officials in some jurisdictions, a TON of blame for state officials in some jurisdictions, and a TON of blame for various federal officials from top to bottom. There will be no shortage of blame for anybody. Pobody was Nerfect!

But it's also true that this disaster was too big for anyone to get their arms around, no matter what they did.

I spent an entire career in local law enforcement, including serving in the departmental command center during Hurricane Andrew and also serving during the Miami riots of the 80's. I'm not criticizing anyone, but I know which responsibilities can only legally be handled by local authorities, which decisions can only be made by local governments, when the responsibilities shift, and who decides when they shift. Hint: it's not the federal government that makes that call, and there are very, very good reasons for that -- both constitutional and operational.

The President offered the governor of Louisana the option to make that call a couple of days ago. She declined, and I personally agree with her because we are still in the stage of this mess where we need the National Guard to retain their law enforcement powers. We faced exactly the same issue, and made exactly the same decision, after Hurricane Andrew.

[wvrevy]

I'm sorry, but I still disagree. EO12656 simply lays out the responsibilities that each department head has in relation to developing a plan for national emergency response. I do not see anything in there that rescinds powers that were granted to the various departments that were then rolled into FEMA once the agency was established (which are spelled out by the previous EO's and granted to the new FEMA by EO12127). I have not seen anything that says that those powers were ever revoked.

Besides...the point has always been that they have the authority to do what was stated in the OP. The question is simply whether they were correct in excersizing that right under the circumstances stated.

[Thea]

I already posted the complete article from the AP wires on an earlier thread but this is a condensed version:


It'll be interesting to see if these people are reimbursed. I'd also like to know why it's not just as important for tourists to get out of New Orleans as anyone else.

Even more interesting is what happened after the buses were lost. The Tourist had to wander the streets of DT New Orleans and at one point the police shot over their heads to prevent them from crosing a bridge and they received NO help. The hotels had shut down and the police restricted them from entering the 2 "refuge of last resort" sites quoting that it would be to dangerous for them. They finally settled down 50 yards from a police post, hoping that they would be safe. They received no food or water. This was reported by CNN


I have found what is supposed to be an eyewitness report of said experience on www.wwltv.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19324 but do know how reliable it is, but most checks out with what CNN reported.

Thea

[seashoreCM]

So now we have at least two incidents:

1. FEMA taking fuel and supplies from debris removal crew.

2. Sheriff taking food and water from tourists camped under bridge.

That is two events too many and enough to make the thread title a true sentence.

Maybe it is nothing more than corruption. New Orleans was a very corrupt city at the top.

Even the federal government has published brochures on preparing for emergency, recommending stockpiling supplies for survival. And now the government goes around seizing these survival supplies?

Maybe there is another moral to the story, he with the most firepower wins.

By the way, who actually got the $45. per person bus fare those tourists (the same ones under the bridge) paid? The hotel managers? I suppose that if some of the tourists wound up in Houston they could make up the lost $45. bus fare by sneaking rides on the Wham Bam Tram (google for the definition; New Orleans did have something similar.)

[lovethattink]

I was talking to another mom at soccer practice yesterday. I asked her how her husband made out. He had left last week in his car with his boat in tow to help rescue people. He had lots of water, food, and gas with him. Along the way he encountered stranded motorists and filled their tanks with his gas. When he got to affected areas, he was advised by the powers that be (not sure if it was coast guard, national guard, FEMA?) that he could not go in there to rescue people. They took most of his supplies and he headed home feeling almost defeated. His wife said that he was told by them that looting is such a hinderence to their rescue efforts. They can't let private citizens in to help. Because they can't tell the looters apart from those private citizens trying to rescue. They were very kind to him, and extremely appreciative of the supplies he had with them. In no way did he feel that they were stealing from him.

[DisDuck]

By the way has anyone noticed that in JimMIA quote from the actual FEMA documents there is only mention of National Security Emergency and how to handle an 'attack' on the US (including reference to NATO aid). There is not one mention of how to handle a 'nature' attack, such as earthquack or hurricane.

It seems to me and there have been several references to this in the media that once FEMA was enveloped by Homeland its functions were refocused on National Security (ie. a terrorist incident) at the expense of a 'natural' incident.

Maybe that is why FEMA has had so much trouble with responding to Katrina. It was not a WMD.

[mom2alix]

By the way has anyone noticed that in JimMIA quote from the actual FEMA documents there is only mention of National Security Emergency and how to handle an 'attack' on the US (including reference to NATO aid). There is not one mention of how to handle a 'nature' attack, such as earthquack or hurricane.

It seems to me and there have been several references to this in the media that once FEMA was enveloped by Homeland its functions were refocused on National Security (ie. a terrorist incident) at the expense of a 'natural' incident.

Maybe that is why FEMA has had so much trouble with responding to Katrina. It was not a WMD.

Actually that is even more disturbing, since in NO it was the levee breaking more than the hurricane that was the problem. What if the levee had been bombed by terrorists instead? We would have an even worse situation because no one would have evacuated before the city flooded. First hand accounts indicate they had 15 feet of water within 15 minutes. Given the response problems we've had, I don't think they're ready for "attacks" any more than they are for natural disasters.

[The Mystery Machine]

If FEMA officials were there why didn't THEY have the stuff they needed? Why weren't they prepared if a utility company from Pennsylvania could get there with equipment and supplies. Why did they need to confiscate the supplies utility companies need to do their jobs? They're FEMA, they're supposed to MANAGE their resources not take them from the people who are trying to turn the freakin lights back on.

I have to say something to this because the answer is CLEAR!!!

1) Bush hired a "buddy" to head up FEMA. The person had NO EXPERIENCE.

2) FEMA was put under "HOMELAND SECURITY". It was no longer a power unto itself.

[jekajekalynn]

My DM called me today and she was royally p-offed with FEMA.

She lives in FL, and told me that they had it all over the news about how Jacksonville and St. Augustine police, firefighters, and other emergency workers who were going to the states that were hit were getting TURNED AWAY by FEMA!!!!
:mad:
They said that FEMA were telling these police and whatnot were NOT wanted ,and if they continued to try to help that they would be charged with something.
My dm said though that the Florida highway patrol got the workers a POLICE ESCORT so that these ppl who are able to help could without getting any crap from FEMA . My mom said on the news that the firemen were saying that FEMA weren't even in some of the areas and how they rescued hundreds of ppl.
:rolleyes2

[mom2alix]

My DM called me today and she was royally p-offed with FEMA.

She lives in FL, and told me that they had it all over the news about how Jacksonville and St. Augustine police, firefighters, and other emergency workers who were going to the states that were hit were getting TURNED AWAY by FEMA!!!!
:mad:
They said that FEMA were telling these police and whatnot were NOT wanted ,and if they continued to try to help that they would be charged with something.
My dm said though that the Florida highway patrol got the workers a POLICE ESCORT so that these ppl who are able to help could without getting any crap from FEMA . My mom said on the news that the firemen were saying that FEMA weren't even in some of the areas and how they rescued hundreds of ppl.
:rolleyes2
Okay, I know I shouldn't be so shocked, but I really thought this could not be true, so I went looking for verification and much to my horror I found it.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/4941402/detail.html

jekajekalynn - By no means to I mean to imply I doubted your honesty :) , I just couldn't believe things were that bad until I read the article for myself. It's just sickening.

[Laura]

Sickening is a very good word for it. :(

[Free4Life11]

Sounds to me like FEMA are control freaks, they want to do everything their way and we've all seen what good THAT's done so far!