Who is the most Accountable?

[Virgo10]

POLL COMING:
Who do you believe is the most responsible for the debacle in New Orleans and the surrounding states?

No rants please. There are plenty of other threads here for that.

Thanks to Alex for starting this board! ::yes::

[Nancy]

Mayor and Governor

[Lisa loves Pooh]

FEMA and Governor

[What the Heck]

Virgo thanks for the poll. I was thinking of doing one just like it (but then my memory kicked out and I forgot).

[Lebjwb]

A Colossal Failure of Leadership

Saving people and maintaining order are the first order of government in any disaster. In New Orleans, neither has been achieved.

WEB-EXCLUSIVE COMMENTARY
By Eleanor Clift
Newsweek
Updated: 12:29 p.m. ET Sept. 2, 2005


Sept. 2, 2005 - I didn’t see the movie “The Day After,” which depicts the desolation and desperation in the aftermath of a nuclear attack. Staring at the images from New Orleans and the Gulf Coast is like watching that disaster movie in real time. People trying to survive, scavenging like wild animals, dead bodies stuffed in corners of the Superdome, the governor of Louisiana fighting to hold back tears.

Where is Rudy Giuliani when we need him? We’ve had four years since 9/11 to prepare for a crisis with mass casualties, yet we seem totally unprepared. To be sure, there are countless unsung heroes performing tasks of kindness and going out of their way to help their fellow man. But this was a moment for national leadership, and nobody rose to take charge the way Giuliani did in New York.

This has been a colossal failure of government. President Bush spent Tuesday, the day after Katrina struck, at a Medicare event in Arizona and then he made his way to a San Diego naval base for yet another anniversary tribute to the Greatest Generation. His concession to reality was adding a few words of compassion to his prepared remarks. Meanwhile, the greatest natural disaster in a century was unfolding at sickening speed with television cameras capturing footage of looting reminiscent of the days after the invasion of Iraq. Things were so bad “you almost wonder if Donald Rumsfeld is in charge,” said Marshall Wittmann, an analyst with the Democratic Leadership Council.

Saving people and maintaining order are the first order of government in any disaster, and neither was achieved. The much-touted Department of Homeland Security appeared too caught up in its internal bureaucracy to perform, and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) called off its rescue missions Thursday because residents trying to board boats were getting violent. The disorder and lawlessness was breathtaking to watch. At one point, the evacuation of patients from a hospital was halted because of gunfire. Bush talks about “zero tolerance” for looters, but there aren’t enough police to stop them and the jails are under water. One third of the National Guard from the affected states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama are in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they’re the ones trained to perform the police functions that restore civil order.

Instead of declaring a national emergency and deploying the military from all those nearby Texas bases, Bush deployed his father and President Clinton for a photo op at the White House as a prelude to a fund-raising tour. Callers to cable shows called the unfolding disaster “our tsunami” and wondered whether other countries would come to our aid the way the American government did when the tsunami hit Asia. We are the richest nation on earth with the resources, as Bush rightly said, “to take care of our business.” Even so, gestures of support are welcome; NEWSWEEK has learned that the former ambassador from Sri Lanka is rallying medical doctors from his country’s expatriate community to go to New Orleans to help. “I figured this is the least we could do to reciprocate for all the help we got,” Ambassador Devinda Subasinghe says.

We’re getting a taste of what poorer parts of the world have experienced along with a glimpse into a frightening future. Scientists say we have entered a cycle of frequent and dangerous storms. September is the peak season for hurricanes, and we’re already through the letter K with Katrina.

Bush’s comment that nobody thought the levees in New Orleans would break is false, and he will regret those words just as Condoleezza Rice did her comment that nobody could imagine a plane flying into a building like a missile. Local authorities and the Corps of Engineers had war-gamed hurricane scenarios and issued repeated warnings about the vulnerability of the levees. Their pleas were turned down and funding cut instead. Now the money will flow. Congressional leaders rushed back to Washington early to pass legislation to free up $10 billion for hurricane relief, a mere down payment on what it will cost to rebuild the stricken areas.

Congress had been planning to eliminate the estate tax, draining billions from a federal budget already reeling under the costs of a war. Marshall Wittmann, who used to advise John McCain, predicts that Bush’s tax-cutting days are over. “We’ve been living in la-la land,” he says. “This is a moment of sobriety when business as usual can’t continue.”

[Virgo10]

Virgo thanks for the poll. I was thinking of doing one just like it (but then my memory kicked out and I forgot).

You're welcome. I am interested in seeing who people feel is ultimately responsible for what has happened over the past few days and continues to happen.

I chose the President. As the most powerful man in this country, I feel he had the authority to take charge. As I asked in the original post, please no rants, so I'll leave it at that.

[N.Bailey]

I think there is enough blame to go around for all of them, as well as the thugs who were creating chaos. It's still the worst catastrophe that we've ever seen and I'm sure they're all doing all they can. Everyone needs to come together in solidarity now. There will be plenty of time for the blame game later on. If nothing else however, HOPEFULLY we'll learn from this so we're much more prepared should it happen again.

[C.Ann]

The one who can cut through governmental red tape in the blink of an eye when he chooses to..

I don't have to name him.. You already know who he is..

[Teejay32]

Other, since "roving armed groups of idiots" is not an option.

[pattyT]

Lets see...
whrere do I start the list...
amazing that we can get to other COUNTRIES faster than one of our own states isn't it

[Free4Life11]

Two of the above:
- President
- Governor

[Planogirl]

I blame both the state government and the feds. Troops should have been sent into New Orleans and the damaged coastal areas immediately after the storm passed. I saw someone comment that it was foolish to send troops into harm's way due to the looters but that makes absolutely no sense IMO. Isn't that the normal way of life for deployed troops?

[WebmasterAlex]

Lets see...
whrere do I start the list...
amazing that we can get to other COUNTRIES faster than one of our own states isn't it

I have heard that a lot. Can you provide a specific example?

I picked other. The aid would have been far quicker had it not been for "roving bands of idiots" as someone said earlier and if the NO police department hadn't abandoned NO to the roving bands of idiots.
Since the Mayor is ultimately responsible for the Police Department I guess you have to count him in there

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I may have to recant my option--or add to it b/c I agree with C. Ann and pattyT.


I am soooo convinced--there will be a Congressional hearing about this. Too many peeved constituents.

[Free4Life11]

I may have to recant my option--or add to it b/c I agree with C. Ann and pattyT.


I am soooo convinced--there will be a Congressional hearing about this. Too many peeved constituents.

I was trying to change my vote after I made it...

I agree there will likely be a Congressional hearing. I have never seen such outrage from American citizens EVER. On every message board I post at, there are pissed off people.

[M:SteveO]

Governor and Mayor, but most of all Mother Nature.

This is the biggest natural disaster in this country's history, things don't flow smoothly in situations like this. However, the governor did not declare martial law until Thursday, 2 days after the levee broke. Let's remember that the hurricane struck Monday, everybody thought everything was fine, the levees breached on Tuesday and she did not declare martial law until 2 days after that. Contrast that to Haley Barbour, governor of Mississippi, who declared martial law on Monday - see a difference? And can we clear up the fact that the military arrived on the third day after the levees breached, not the fifth. Dealing with a disaster like this is just not as easy as people make it seem.

[Rozzie]

mother nature--this is what happens when you build a city below sea level.

mayor--should have ordered the mandatory evac sooner and bussed people out then

[Free4Life11]

Ok well I've heard that in Louisiana law martial law does not EXIST? Can anyone clarify this? I've heard so many different things.

[snappy]

I have heard that a lot. Can you provide a specific example?

I picked other. The aid would have been far quicker had it not been for "roving bands of idiots" as someone said earlier and if the NO police department hadn't abandoned NO to the roving bands of idiots.
Since the Mayor is ultimately responsible for the Police Department I guess you have to count him in there

I agree with Alex. Many people were further jeopardized by the thugs. It is 4 pm on Saturday, there are still people on roofs. The rescue effort was hampered and even suspended due to the lawlessness. Some of the thugs own relative may very well have perished due to their actions. My cousin is married to a N.O. police officer. My sister-in-law's son also is one. Their blue shirts are being used as target practice. These are fine young men with familes and their lives are at risk while they are trying to keep order during rescue and recovery. I know all N. O. cops are not saints but if I hear one mor reporter talk about the reputaion of the city's cops I am going to explode.

I doubt any government official could have foreseen the enormity of the problem with the criminal element left to their own devices. The mayor is still trying to soft soap the gang problem. Having lived, worked and attended jr high, high school and college in New Orleans and Metairie, I can tell you first hand N. O. has a very large criminal population there. I have had my purse stolen in the CBD, one of my cars stolen from my husband's former place of employment near St. Charles Avenue, and our house burglarized in Metairie. We paid astronominical property damage rates in this area, the reason is obvious. I tend to believe some of the thugs purposely did not evacuate in order to take advantage of empty houses. I don't begrudge anyone food, water, and diapers but I know that when residents are allowed to return to their houses (supposedly Monday-Wednesday in Jefferson parish) many will find their homes looted and and trashed even more than they were after the storm and the flood waters.

I would love to know how full the busses were that Nagin sent in to the neighborhoods to bring people to the dome.

[Nancy]

I've heard that about martial law there too. Also, in another post we were discussing why the mayor didn't have the power to order mandatory evacs without a judges order. Can anyone clarify both of those topics?

[shelby_36]

9 months after the tragedy in Africa was brought to light they still have not receive much relief.



I said Mayor. but also feel the driector of emergency services in LA was also responsible.

[N.Bailey]

Ok well I've heard that in Louisiana law martial law does not EXIST? Can anyone clarify this? I've heard so many different things.

I can't verify as fact that it doesn't exist there, but the mayor stated he had called for Marshall Law early on, but it was acknowledged that the governor hadn't done the same.

[N.Bailey]

mother nature--this is what happens when you build a city below sea level.

snip


::yes::

[auntpolly]

I think it's "other" -- it's those Christians for not being Christian enough! Will they ever learn? Bringing the wrath of God down on us and what-not!

[revcohea]

Why are we looking at why this happened? People are dying and need help. If we spent a little less time trying to point blame and a little more time doing what we can to help the situation we'd get a lot more done. Help will get there and is getting there. The reality is that if the people had evacuated then we wouldn't have this problem. And don't use the 'these people are poor and can't get out. Where are all the city busses and school busses, couldn't these have been used to evacuate the people that couldn't afford to leave?
And my biggest question is why were there any people in Hospitals when a CAT 5 storm was bearing down on the city. Whenever someone issues a manditory evacuation they should follow through with it. But you know what all that doesn't matter now. That's past, now we have a whole new problem and we have to help these people.

[DisWDWMay]

FEMA...Michael Brown was a Lawyer who's only experience in emergency response was a year as an assistant to the city manager. He was over his head.

And the president...The buck stops there.

[Virgo10]

Why are we looking at why this happened? People are dying and need help. If we spent a little less time trying to point blame and a little more time doing what we can to help the situation we'd get a lot more done. Help will get there and is getting there. The reality is that if the people had evacuated then we wouldn't have this problem. And don't use the 'these people are poor and can't get out. Where are all the city busses and school busses, couldn't these have been used to evacuate the people that couldn't afford to leave?
And my biggest question is why were there any people in Hospitals when a CAT 5 storm was bearing down on the city. Whenever someone issues a manditory evacuation they should follow through with it. But you know what all that doesn't matter now. That's past, now we have a whole new problem and we have to help these people.

Well I can't speak for everyone but I want to know why this happened to learn from it. If we don't learn from our history, we are doomed to repeat it.

This was a simple poll. I started it out of curiosity on what the members of the DIS thought about who was the most responsible for this mess.

Posting our feelings won't change a thing but it does help relieve frustration. Most of us can't do anything but donate, pray and bear witness to this tragic event. While I understand that it is your right to respond to any thread you care to, I don't understand why you feel the need to criticize this one. It was well labeled and ignoring things that you think are inappropriate is always a good option.

[WebmasterAlex]

The reason I think this poll is great is because I want to compare it to one 6 months from now. In 6 Months there will be investigations and reports and hearings. My guess is that it is going to come out that Bush was not as responsible as a lot of people are trying to make him and that the government of NO and LA were very responsible. Not trying to back that up with facts at the moment just my guess of where this is going.

[cati]

Governor and Mayor!! They are the ultimate responsible persons. New Orleans government for not having a plan in place years ago as to how it would handle a disaster. They knew a huricane could do this years ago.

[poohandwendy]

All of the above and ALSO the citizens who actually made things worse and the NO police who walked away from their responsibility.

I would not blame one specific office or group more than the other, they all collectively contributed to the the problems. It is the whole picture that made it such a catastrophe, IMHO.

The total breakdown of communication and organization before and during this nightmare is beyond comprehension.

[Bunch24]

Actually, the blame goes to Hurricane Katrina.

You see, Katrina and the subsequent levee break turned New Orleans and surrounding area into an island, an island with no bridge access because of damage. Pretty hard to go into an island with no bridge access. Coast guard helicopters were dispatched to the area as soon as the winds died down, which people don't realize wasn't until late Monday night.

Coast guard helicopters can only carry so many people at one time. Do you know as of today at 3 p.m., the Coast Guard reported that their helicopters had rescued some 9,500 people? Sounds like they were doing their job.

As for the buses dispatched to the Superdome, like I mentioned earlier, it's hard to get a vehicle onto an island without bridges. Simply put, there was no way to get into New Orleans immediately after the storm. I know of some citizens who took boats into the area and were rescuing people, but apparently they were stopped by police because the area was too dangerous for civilians to be doing rescue attempts.

Everybody is quick to blame the President or the Governor or the Mayor, but nobody wants to blame the real culprit, the storm.

[poohandwendy]

Everybody is quick to blame the President or the Governor or the Mayor, but nobody wants to blame the real culprit, the storm.
__________________
Sorry, but the storm was an inevitability. The breakdown in resources was totally man made and caused more damage than the storm.

[gina2000]

All of them.

[dcentity2000]

I have absolutely no idea.



Rich::

[Divamomto3]

I blame the Governor for constantly looking like a deer in headlights and the President of the United States for letting us down and not getting his butt back to DC (yes, I know he can do everything from Crawford but it's the symbolism of DC that contributes to the feeling that he is taking control and that he cares what's happening) and rolling up his sleeves and visably taking charge of the situation. If we saw him ranting and raving and giving orders but it still took a long time, we'd at least feel like he tried to do something. Instead, he was cutting cake with McCain. :rolleyes:


Exteme Applause and Gratitude goes out to the United States Coast Guard, the American Media, and the citizen volunteers.

[N.Bailey]

The reason I think this poll is great is because I want to compare it to one 6 months from now. In 6 Months there will be investigations and reports and hearings. My guess is that it is going to come out that Bush was not as responsible as a lot of people are trying to make him and that the government of NO and LA were very responsible. Not trying to back that up with facts at the moment just my guess of where this is going.
I agree with you, but I do think Bush should have been in the public eye a little more. He came across as very uncaring to many. Not necessarily to me, but to many he did.

When such a catastrophe strikes, it's easier somehow to blame others to make us feel better too. With 9-11, we had a clear understanding of who was to blame and that made a lot of us feel better. Not better that it happened, but better that we had someone to blame. IMO, a lot of things could have been handled better here, but I don't think anyone, our leaders included, expected such a catastrophic loss and no one took the lawlessness into consideration when coming up with the plans. I don't think anyone could have foreseen that!!! Looking back (because hindsight is 20/20) I'm sure they'd all do things a little differently, but who wouldn't have?

[DisWDWMay]

Originally Posted by WebmasterAlex

The reason I think this poll is great is because I want to compare it to one 6 months from now. In 6 Months there will be investigations and reports and hearings. My guess is that it is going to come out that Bush was not as responsible as a lot of people are trying to make him and that the government of NO and LA were very responsible. Not trying to back that up with facts at the moment just my guess of where this is going.

My guess is that you are right, not because the facts will back Bush, FEMA, the Mayor, or the Governor but because politicians are very adept at deflecting blame. Witness the Iraqi war, there's still debate after 4 years about who's to blame for the WMD misinformation, which ultimately resulted in noone really taking the fall. Its going to end up the same way with this debacle as one politician after another talks out the side of his mouth and noone takes accountablility.

And yes, it was a debacle. International personnel and supplies were on the ground, and air drops were taking place two days after the tsunami hit the Indian Ocean third world countries but it takes five days for federal relief in New Orleans.

[babar]

The guy who lives down the street from me just because I can't stand him. :rotfl: :rotfl:

[DawnCt1]

They mayor and the governor. Hands down.

[JimB.]

In MY perceived order..............

1. Tie between state & local. It appears they have had NO pre-plan in place for this.

2. Residents that CHOSE to stay (as opposed to those that just could not get out (which was the fault of #1 above))

3. Residents that stayed and chose to become evil & resort to mob rule.

4. The Feds. I KNOW the locals are supposed to request things before the feds can do a lot of stuff, but after the state/local govts proved incapable of doing, well ANYTHING, the feds should have sent assets anyway (quicker)

5. The feds & state for not really seriously considering the possibility of this happening with the levee system. I know funding by the feds has been cut in the past, but if the state/locals were truly concerned, they would have screamed to high heaven about it.

[lyeag]

Interesting blurb on Drudge... I know how some of you feel about Drudge, but I will put it out there for discussion sake....

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

[DawnCt1]

I agree with you, but I do think Bush should have been in the public eye a little more. He came across as very uncaring to many. Not necessarily to me, but to many he did.



I think President Bush goes into CEO mode and works behind the scenes. As a result it does hurt him politically because people don't see that he is working the problem, assigning the right people, monitoring the situation. Unfortunately being President is too often a PR job. I have no doubt that he was putting in the time, the concern, the effort and the heart.

[Charade]

A Colossal Failure of Leadership

Saving people and maintaining order are the first order of government in any disaster. In New Orleans, neither has been achieved.

WEB-EXCLUSIVE COMMENTARY
By Eleanor Clift
Newsweek
Updated: 12:29 p.m. ET Sept. 2, 2005


Sept. 2, 2005 - I didn’t see the movie “The Day After,” which depicts the desolation and desperation in the aftermath of a nuclear attack. Staring at the images from New Orleans and the Gulf Coast is like watching that disaster movie in real time. People trying to survive, scavenging like wild animals, dead bodies stuffed in corners of the Superdome, the governor of Louisiana fighting to hold back tears.




Didn't see it but makes a direct comparison to it. :rolleyes:

[O2BNWDW]

Governor and Mayor -
Where were the plans? Why wasn't the National Guard called immediately after.
The President is not God - he is not omiscient but a lot of people seem to think he should be.

[Lebjwb]

I think President Bush goes into CEO mode and works behind the scenes. As a result it does hurt him politically because people don't see that he is working the problem, assigning the right people, monitoring the situation. Unfortunately being President is too often a PR job. I have no doubt that he was putting in the time, the concern, the effort and the heart.

And it really showed too, didn't it? What a bang up job.

If he had put anymore "time, concern, effort and heart" into it they'd still be swamping out New Orleans 5 years from now.

[dvcgirl]

Well, the more I'm hearing about this "Hurricane Pam" FEMA exercise that took place two years ago in New Orleans with all sorts of experts, many from LSU, local government officials, state officials, FEMA and a representative from the White House.... I think that they're *all* responsible to a certain degree. I don't think that we should politicize this thing. It's a failure of collassal proportions on multiple levels. I don't think that there's any other way to look at it.

The gentleman I saw this evening on MSNBC was from LSU and he briefed this panel. They asked about his reaction the comments from the Director of Homeland security that they never expected the one-two punch that they got. This man was very upset...said that's *exactly* what we told them would happen. And not only did the experts tell them that the city would flood, they told them that from public opinion polls that they had taken that 70% of the residents would evacuate and 30% would stay...meaning that they'd have to rescure 300,000 people.

They told them about the high possibility for violence. They told them about the incredibly high incidence of disease from the highly contaminated water. He said that many more will die from gastrointestinal disease from wading in that water....most of them will be the elderly, sick and babies. They gave these officials a CD of the storm ...fully animated...how it would come in....how the bowl would fill..and all of the statistics. They told them to have thousands of tents available for the refugees. A woman from FEMA responded..."Amerians don't live in tents." No, they just drown in the swill, suffocate in their attics and die on hot pavement. Yes, they should have evacuated. But not everyone is educated enough to understand what was going to happen. There have been so many times when hurricanes are predicted to be awful, and they're just not as bad as predicted. Unfortunately, you also get some Andrews, Charleys, Ivans and Katrinas...and they're actually *worse* than the forecast.


And so here's the thing....we have a democratic Mayor who failed to control the city. His police department took off. We have a Democratic Governor who was ill-prepared and failed to send in the national guard. She still looks shocked that this is happening. We have a republican director of FEMA who had all of the information and numbers and showed up too late. He'll probably be gone soon. And a republican president who should have called for the Feds to take over the mission as it was evident by Wednesday that the City and State couldn't handle it. I hate to see this thing turned into a huge political debate....Democrats failed those people...Repulicans failed those people. Clinton had the levee restoration on the table and passed on it....So did Bush. Democrats and Republicans failed them.

And I think that if that Superdome was filled with poor white people....they'd be dying too. I hate to see this turned into a racial war. And I'm sick to death of seeing Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson try and rachet this thing up into just that. Their *job* is to whip this thing up into a racial war, because then they both still *have* jobs.

In the end, it's just a damn shame.

[lulu71]

I voted for the Governor because the evacuation plan was a multi-parish effort and Blanco stressed that none of the parish or city leaders be "free agents" and plan for their own areas without the group's coordination. If she led the group, she holds the responsibility.

[lyeag]

Governor and Mayor -
Where were the plans? Why wasn't the National Guard called immediately after.
The President is not God - he is not omiscient but a lot of people seem to think he should be.

Well, according to a press release on the 27th they were working together on decisions.

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=4

Mayor Nagin is working with Gov. Kathleen Blanco and other City, local and State officials are watching the storm’s path and working together to make decisions that affect citizens. Gov. Blanco has declared a state of emergency in Louisiana, which provides city government with additional authority and improved access to resources needed when responding to elevated threats, such as natural disasters.


AND

Anyone planning to spend time in a shelter should bring three to four days’ worth of food, sleeping gear, and medical supplies including oxygen, medicine and batteries for any necessary devices. No weapons or bulky items are allowed in any shelters.

[jnf142]

We're from New Orleans, or Metairie to be exact. As we were leaving the city Saturday night we were listening to a N.O. talk radio station. We constantly heard announcements telling people that if they did not have the means to evacuate, to please go to certain locations and they would be taken from the city. I'm pretty sure this was all over ALL media airwaves, not just talk radio. Not only that, announcements were made constantly as to what people should bring to shelters.
In 1998 (for Hurricane Georges) the Superdome was opened as a shelter, the mayor SWORE it would never happen again because of the riots, vandalism, and general disrespect toward the city then. People were shown then actually carrying out things that obviously belonged in the dome. When evacuees were GIVEN food from the concession stands in the dome, they actually complained about the "quality" of it.
All of this is just so sad. Not any one person can be blamed, it started when people chose not to leave. Someone posted that some people aren't educated enough to know what's going to happen. Being from there, I can tell you that if you aren't educated about it, it's your own fault, the information is ALWAYS there for us. At the beginning of every hurricane season, at least once a week for a month, local news is preempted for a program called "Surviving the Big Hurricane", or something to that effect. We are offered free tracking maps, free evacuation route maps, free lists of what to have on hand in case of a bad storm, etc. Also, you can't call for a mandatory evacuation unless you have the manpower to back it up in such a highly populated area.
I apologize for going off on a tangent. I'm just so sad to see my city that I love so much, and all of its people, history and culture underwater.

[DisneyCP2002]

The one who can cut through governmental red tape in the blink of an eye when he chooses to..

I don't have to name him.. You already know who he is..
I totally agree with this. Also I hold several others on the list responsible.

[Puffy2]

The blame for the cause of the incident can be debated, but the HUGE FAILURE of our government to adequately respond to this national tragedy is unforgiveable for a nation of our wealth and education.

And that failure rests solely with the Bush Administration.

Perhaps it's a good wake up call for us - before a much larger tragedy hits this nation . Vote carefully in the next election - your lives very well may depend on it.

[profdsny]

Not sure what blame the govenor should have. Not saying she doesn't, just don't see how. Remember, it was more than just New Orleans in La that was hit.

[dvcgirl]

The blame for the cause of the incident can be debated, but the HUGE FAILURE of our government to adequately respond to this national tragedy is unforgiveable for a nation of our wealth and education.

And that failure rests solely with the Bush Administration.

Perhaps it's a good wake up call for us - before a much larger tragedy hits this nation . Vote carefully in the next election - your lives very well may depend on it.

To say it rests solely with the Bush Administration is ridiculous. This thing goes from top to bottom. Even a minor thing like the New Orleans Police Force remaining on duty rather than taking off could have made a *huge* difference. Having a competent governor is another. Yes, I agree with you to a certain degree, the Bush Administration has to own up here, but so do the local and state authorities. This is like the Perfect Storm of bad leadership....from top to bottom. I think as far as the Feds go, that FEMA and Homeland Security play a huge role in the failure of this mission...

[Talking Hands]

The Governor and the Mayor

[Deb & Bill]

FEMA, because everytime anyone tried to do something, FEMA confiscated the assets and said they were in charge. And delayed the response even more.

Turn FEMA and Homeland Security over to DoD.

[DMRick]

If there has to be blame, the governor and mayor for not practicing an evacuation plan, and not planning for emergency services to be activated to help those that wanted to, get out of dodge.
Also, although I know the people were told to bring food and water for two days, I think the dome should have been stocked with food and water if that was where the people were to be taken, in case someone didn't bring it.
Of course it's always easy for me to sit here without knowing all the facts (about how they would get help out faster), especially with hindsight, than if I had to react after thinking people were realtively safe, and then have the levies go, and have to figure out how to get a small army and food for the victims and that army there quickly.

[2Poodles]

1.) Bush

2.) FEMA & Home Land Security

3.) Governor & Mayor

(Just my opinion)


Mary & the 2Poodles
(Sebastian & Winslow)

[shortbun]

President
That's where the "buck stops"

Also, the "not sending troops into harm's way" comment. Laughable concept in today's world isn't it?! A few snipers keep them from saving thousands and yet we have no problem sending them to Falluja without adequate body armour. Ha! Wonder what could be more valuable in Iraq than our own American brothers and sisters right here at home? I reel from the reality of it all. Sickening. I read headlines this morning, "New Orleans Left to the Dead and Dying" OMG. the horror.

[shortbun]

Governor and Mayor -
Where were the plans? Why wasn't the National Guard called immediately after.
The President is not God - he is not omiscient but a lot of people seem to think he should be.

W has pretty much declared himself omniscient in many cases. Why would people NOT expect him to act as such? He's been billed as the take charge guy. Guess he missed out on this one, eh?

And Dawn-to say that W takes on the CEO role behind the scenes. What does he know about being a successful CEO? Nothing. None of his businesses succeeded. Seems like he was looking to others to do something here and four days later, remembered he WAS the CEO and needed to do something other than a flightseeing tour.

[2Poodles]

Shortbun -- I agree with everything you posted especially -- President -- That's where the "buck stops"

CAnn -- The one who can cut through governmental red tape in the blink of an eye when he chooses to.. I agree 100%.


Mary & the 2Poodles
(Sebastian & Winslow)

[Virgo10]

Well, the more I'm hearing about this "Hurricane Pam" FEMA exercise that took place two years ago in New Orleans with all sorts of experts, many from LSU, local government officials, state officials, FEMA and a representative from the White House.... I think that they're *all* responsible to a certain degree. I don't think that we should politicize this thing. It's a failure of collassal proportions on multiple levels. I don't think that there's any other way to look at it.

Lots of good stuff *snipped* for brevity.




I just want to add that I'm not "blaming" any one Party. I'm saying that individual PEOPLE were responsible for what happened. The folks affected put them in charge and, maybe to a lesser degree their Party, they failed across the board. They congratulated themselves in front of a reeling nation on what a great job they were doing while people in New Orleans and elsewhere were dying in the streets.

I saw Republicans, Democrats, whites, blacks, males and females do it. This isn't Iraq where we weren't seeing the bodies of dead soldiers because certain "PEOPLE" thought it wasn't in the best interest of this country. These are our fellow citizens and, say what you want about the news media, I thank God that they were there to show what was going on.

[Dizzy4Dizney]

I love how people blame the President for anything they can. It's his fault the levys broke. It's his fault, 30,000 troops weren't in the city before the storm hit. It's his fault the looters took over and started pilaging.

This was a local blunder, not federal. Most of this could have been avoided if the local officials did two things:

1- 40 years ago, when those levys were built, build them to standards to withstand a catagory 5, not 3 storm. Bad decision.

2- Knowing that a catagory 5 was coming at them on Thurs, should have had a mandatory evacuation of the city and declare martial law. More people could have gotten out and the aftermath wouldn't have been so bad.

Hindsight is 20/20.

[bz8bls]

Well said DVC girl. I totally agree about Jesse Jackson...such an opportunist. I'm
African-American and Jesse doe not represent the mind-set of all African-Americans. I don't think the issue is racist, but it is a class problem. There were a lot of African-Americans who could afford to leave NO.

I do think that buses should have been brought in to get those people out since it was a mandatory evacuation.

[wvrevy]

Actually, as much as I've focused on the president's bungling, there is plenty of blame to go around, from his office all the way down to the mayor of New Orleans. FEMA has been inept, the Homeland INSecurity department has shown itself inable to deal with a massive problem in a major city, and the national guard is overwhelmed and underperforming...but that's just the start.

This was a complete and total failure of leadership, and nobody is exempt from the criticism.

[WebmasterAlex]

What I find interesting is that when this poll was first started the president was in the lead by a lot. The Governor has now caught up as more and more facts come out and more than one is really a hot answer!

[Virgo10]

What I find interesting is that when this poll was first started the president was in the lead by a lot. The Governor has now caught up as more and more facts come out and more than one is really a hot answer!

Part of that may be that people don't want to believe the one person leading this country was inept.

[WebmasterAlex]

I don't think so...

I think as more and more facts come out people are seeing this different.

[wvrevy]

I don't think so...

I think as more and more facts come out people are seeing this different.

Maybe his office just has a better spin machine than hers. :teeth:

Like I said, she certainly shouldn't be exempt from the criticism. This is every bit as much her failure as it is his. There is, sadly, plenty of blame to go around.

[WebmasterAlex]

Maybe his office just has a better spin machine than hers. :teeth:

Like I said, she certainly shouldn't be exempt from the criticism. This is every bit as much her failure as it is his. There is, sadly, plenty of blame to go around.

I think people are starting to understand there are laws, constraints and limits and I think all the information coming out about the national guard and who is in charge is surprising people.
Could bush have gotten troops there sooner? Most certainly, I'm sure he could have gotten a fairly big force of one of the airborne divisions or a Marine expeditionary unit in there.
The problem is it would have been completely illegal and the troops would have had NO police powers whatsoever when they did get there.
That is, by law, under the control of the Governor

[LoraJ]

Maybe his office just has a better spin machine than hers. :teeth:

Like I said, she certainly shouldn't be exempt from the criticism. This is every bit as much her failure as it is his. There is, sadly, plenty of blame to go around.


Agree.

[auntpolly]

This thread is about accoutability, not blame; right?

If you want to talk about accountablility, talk about the president -- the buck stops there, right? And he wanted to be president so bad!

If you want to talk about blame, talk about us all. THis whole thing is like one big, bad disaster movie where the geeky scientists with the pencil protecters tell us that a disaster is coming and we all blow him off, then "POW!" half of the world is dead.

Pencil protecter geeky scientists have been predicting this for a long time and everyone blew them off. And I doubt if we even learned anything from this experience!!! Just last night I posted a Weather Channel link about Tampa being just as vulnerable, and a Tampa person dismissed it completely. We're all living on borrowed time and none of us want to face things like this -- and the Mayor of NO was supposed to fight us all and be ready for a cat 4 or 5 hurricane all by himself???? Who is he? Superman???

[Charade]

I guess I'd like to know just how quickly people think that thousands and thousands of people could be evacuated when a lot of them can't even be found or don't want to leave? Could they have been better prepared? Yes. Could they have been prepared for every unknown? No. Will we learn from this? Hopefully. Assigning absolute blame at this point does nothing but make some people feel better as we don't know all the facts. I do agree that the response could have been better and faster but the level of digust that some people have toward the people that were trying to help as best as they possibly could with what they had at their disposal is disturbing.

[Charade]

This thread is about accoutability, not blame; right?

The difference???? :confused3



We're all living on borrowed time and none of us want to face things like this -- and the Mayor of NO was supposed to fight us all and be ready for a cat 4 or 5 hurricane all by himself???? Who is he? Superman???

If he's not superman, why do you expect the governor or the president to be one?

[auntpolly]

The difference???? :confused3





That difference was explained to you in the last thread you asked? Remember? The definitions are different -- it is not semantics.

[wvrevy]

I guess I'd like to know just how quickly people think that thousands and thousands of people could be evacuated when a lot of them can't even be found or don't want to leave? Could they have been better prepared? Yes. Could they have been prepared for every unknown? No. Will we learn from this? Hopefully. Assigning absolute blame at this point does nothing but make some people feel better as we don't know all the facts. I do agree that the response could have been better and faster but the level of digust that some people have toward the people that were trying to help as best as they possibly could with what they had at their disposal is disturbing.

So, you don't find it disturbing that both the president and the head of the Homeland Security department have both said that "nobody could have predicted the levees breaking", despite the fact that it's been predicted for years? You don't find it disturbing that, even with the vast majority of the city already evacuated, we couldn't respond any better to a crisis in a major city than we have ? You don't find it disturbing that the excuse being used by those defending the federal response amounts to the fact that the governor didn't fill out the right forms ?

The whole thing is disturbing, Charade. And if you think it makes any of us that have been critical "feel better" to see how inept and unprepared our leadership has been, then you really don't understand the motivation of those of us that don't support this administration. :sad2:

[LoraJ]

The difference???? :confused3




If he's not superman, why do you expect the governor or the president to be one?


I don't expect any of them to be. I had voted the blame lies on one or more persons.

The more and more facts I read, the more I think FEMA and Homeland Security dropped the ball the most. They aren't individual people but organizations.

I think what everyone's anger with the preisdent was the way he handled himself throughout the week. When they would show him talking to the press on Monday and Tuesday he would say something for a minute and then go "rah rah medicade".

I don't think all the blame lays with him, I think he is partly to blame. When the mayor of NO was yelling and hollering on Friday, that's when he earned respect from me because he was fighting for his people. I never got the sense from Bush that he was fighting for them.

I'm sure most of the people that are being blamed are also blaming themselves if there was anything else they could have done.

Hopefully this will be a lesson learned and they can come up with better plans so that in the future we can speed up the response.

If we were invaded by another country, how long would it take for the troops to respond?

[wvrevy]

I don't expect any of them to be. I had voted the blame lies on one or more persons.

The more and more facts I read, the more I think FEMA and Homeland Security dropped the ball the most. They aren't individual people but organizations.

I think what everyone's anger with the preisdent was the way he handled himself throughout the week. When they would show him talking to the press on Monday and Tuesday he would say something for a minute and then go "rah rah medicade".

Just one small correction to a post I mostly agree with...Bush appointed the head of both agencies, and the head of FEMA is nothing more than a Bush cronie that had no experience in disaster management before taking the position. As I stated somewhere else on the board, every politician engages in cronyism to some extent. But hiring a lifelong buddy to manage an agency as critical as FEMA is absolutely inexcusable. That he (Brown) has proved to be inept should come as no surprise, considering he's never handled anything like a major disaster before.

[auntpolly]

If he's not superman, why do you expect the governor or the president to be one?

This question was answered in the very thread you cut and pasted from. DOn't you read the responses?? Go back and read what I wrote about it being everyone's fault, but Bush needing to accept accountablilty -- if you really care what I have to say -- which I doubt if you do.

[Charade]

So, you don't find it disturbing that both the president and the head of the Homeland Security department have both said that "nobody could have predicted the levees breaking", despite the fact that it's been predicted for years?

I do. But do you?


You don't find it disturbing that, even with the vast majority of the city already evacuated, we couldn't respond any better to a crisis in a major city than we have ?

I do. But do you?


You don't find it disturbing that the excuse being used by those defending the federal response amounts to the fact that the governor didn't fill out the right forms ?

No, I don't. Y'all have been complaining about this adminstration is trashing the Constitution. Can I can assume that you would have been OK if the adminstration had seized control from Governor of LA?


The whole thing is disturbing, Charade.

I agree.


And if you think it makes any of us that have been critical "feel better" to see how inept and unprepared our leadership has been, then you really don't understand the motivation of those of us that don't support this administration. :sad2:

I understand it more than you believe I do. The "usual suspects" are out in force. The fact *is*, nothing this adminstration does is ever acceptable to them so their reaction to this tragedy is not surprising. But don't confuse my position on this as defending the adminstration, I'm not. I did state that the response could have been better, at all levels. But I stop short of pointing my finger at the very people who were trying their best with what they had to help anyone they could.

[Charade]

This question was answered in the very thread you cut and pasted from. DOn't you read the responses?? Go back and read what I wrote about it being everyone's fault, but Bush needing to accept accountablilty -- if you really care what I have to say -- which I doubt if you do.

There are so many threads that I can't keep up. Plus, I spent the last day or so at the hospital with my GF so pardon me for not keeping up with reading/responding (to) your posts.

[ThAnswr]

What exactly is that the Bush apologists seem to be missing?

Building levees to protect one of the most important ports in the country is not the job of the local government. They don't have the resources. That is the job of the federal government.

The problem with this poll is it takes this tragedy as a whole. Different people are to blame for the events that transpired at different times. Of course, the mayor was reponsible for the lead-up to storm. Yes, it was his responsibility that he convey the message this is serious. Yes, it was the repsponbility of the governor when she realized this situation was starting to spiral out of control.

But, ultimately, it was the responbility of the federal government for not staying on top of this situation and for not calling the governor and mayor immediately. How do I know that didn't happen? Because none of the Bush apologists can come up with proof of that phone call. The CIC failed to get in touch with the troops to find out what was going on and what was needed.

On Monday, while a category 4 hurricane was hitting the gulf coast, Bush was peddling his medicare hooey and enjoying a piece of birthday cake with John McCain. Condoleeza Rice was shopping for shoes on Fifth Avenue in NYC.

No phone call from the WH: "Mayor Nagin, what's going on? Governor Blanco, what do you need?"

On Tuesday, when the floods had hit NO and the gangs were roving the strrets and critically ill patients were dying in the hospital, when there was no food, water, or power at the Superdome, Bush was playing the guitar.

No phone call from the WH: Mayor Nagin, what do you need? Governor Blanco, what's the situation and what do you need?

Nothing.

And the absolute crowning glory of just how out of touch the federal government was when the head of FEMA told the world the federal government didn't know there were people in the convention center. I knew it because I was watching CNN.

Too many Bush apologists think photo ops such as having your arm around a fireman at the WTC is leadership. That's not leadership, that's opportunism. Leadership was Rudy Giuliani walking the streets of NYC leading the charge, comforting people, answering questions.........that's leadership not phony photo ops on an aircraft carrier.

Anyone can look good during a canned moment and in good times. Real leaders emerge when times are bad. Real leaders lift up a country and a people.......FDR, during the worst of the depression said "My friends, we have nothing to fear but fear itself". And then he went to work.

The saddest of all is how so many people are willing to settle for less than the best from their government. We used to be a nation that thought big, had big ideas and big dreams. Now, we're a nation that makes excuses for small people.

Shame, shame, shame!

[LoraJ]

There are so many threads that I can't keep up. Plus, I spent the last day or so at the hospital with my GF so pardon me for not keeping up with reading/responding (to) your posts.


Hope she's okay :grouphug:

[auntpolly]

There are so many threads that I can't keep up. Plus, I spent the last day or so at the hospital with my GF so pardon me for not keeping up with reading/responding (to) your posts.

I'm sorry about your GF, but I'm talking about the very thread you quoted me from!!!! You asked me a question that I answered in the paragraph above the one you found fault with!!!

[spima3]

<snip>
And so here's the thing....we have a democratic Mayor who failed to control the city. His police department took off. We have a Democratic Governor who was ill-prepared and failed to send in the national guard. She still looks shocked that this is happening. We have a republican director of FEMA who had all of the information and numbers and showed up too late. He'll probably be gone soon. And a republican president who should have called for the Feds to take over the mission as it was evident by Wednesday that the City and State couldn't handle it. I hate to see this thing turned into a huge political debate....Democrats failed those people...Repulicans failed those people. Clinton had the levee restoration on the table and passed on it....So did Bush. Democrats and Republicans failed them.
<snip>
In the end, it's just a damn shame.

Great post!

Unfortunately, the calm voice of reason is seldom a welcomed guest.

[wvrevy]

I do. But do you?
Umm...obviously. :teeth:
No, I don't. Y'all have been complaining about this adminstration is trashing the Constitution. Can I can assume that you would have been OK if the adminstration had seized control from Governor of LA?
She asked for help. Everyone knew she asked for help, because she did it on live television. People are defending the administration (and by that, I mean everyone from Bush to FEMA and HSA) because it wasn't done "formally". Sorry, but I don't think anyone is going to quibble over beaurocracy when people are dying, Charade.
I understand it more than you believe I do. The "usual suspects" are out in force. The fact *is*, nothing this adminstration does is ever acceptable to them so their reaction to this tragedy is not surprising.
Obviously, you don't have a clue as to why those of us that criticize are so vocal in our opposition. There are a number of things the president has done that I've supported (standards for schools and the Afghanistan war being two off the top of my head). But the obstinate refusal to see any flaw or allow any criticism by so many on these boards is just baffling to me. The man has done some things right. I don't know that anybody would argue that. But he's failed miserably at many other things, too. In my opinion, this is absolutely one of those failures.

(ETA...Hope your GF is ok !)

[Charade]

Hope she's okay :grouphug:

Thank you. She's doing much better now.

[wvrevy]

Great post!

Unfortunately, the calm voice of reason is seldom a welcomed guest.

Believe me, I know. I've been trying to say that the failure was widespread from the beginning, and have run up against the "Bush is a saint" crowd any number of times. The "blame" is shared by the government, not one party in particular.

however...saying that it's "reasonable" to expect the head of FEMA to be "gone soon" is not very realistic. Has Bush fired any of his friends that have made serious blunders under his administration ? Rumsfeld still has a job...Karl Rove...anyone ?

[poohandwendy]

I've been trying to say that the failure was widespread from the beginning, and have run up against the "Bush is a saint" crowd any number of times. The "blame" is shared by the government, not one party in particular.
Actually, I haven't seen anyone say that Bush doesn't share the responsibility at all (or that he is a saint, LOL)...I think most people are in agreement that the blame does not rest at any one departments feet.

[wvrevy]

Actually, I haven't seen anyone say that Bush doesn't share the responsibility at all (or that he is a saint, LOL)...I think most people are in agreement that the blame does not rest at any one departments feet.
Umm.....Keep reading :teeth:

[peachgirl]

The "usual suspects" are out in force.

They certainly are. It isn't just me, there are many of us on the liberal side who have been amazed how much agreement there has been between people on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

However, there is the usual cast of characters who wouldn't have to even know there was a hurricane before they were posting their defense of the President.

[poohandwendy]

They certainly are. It isn't just me, there are many of us on the liberal side who have been amazed how much agreement there has been between people on opposite sides of the political spectrum.
I think most people are in basic agreement with this, which is good. (sort of...still a shame there has to be anything to agree upon)However, there is the usual cast of characters who wouldn't have to even know there was a hurricane before they were posting their defense of the President.
And there are those who, no matter what actions the POTUS took, would find fault with him. Just the way it is...there will always be the partisan extremists. I think they are the minority, thankfully.

[brittsmum1998]

governor and mayor

[damo]

The poll on foxnews.com has 35% saying the federal government did a great job.

[Puffy2]

Wow, that's pathetic seeing that the only people that routinely watch Faux News are republicans.

[brittsmum1998]

You may say that Puffy, but remember that is the #1 cable news program in the country whether you like to hear it or not. To me that represents the 'majority' a heck of a lot more than CNN or MSNBC.

[Puffy2]

Which is even more disturbing.

[JerJan]

The President is the Commander in Chief which makes him RESPONSIBLE for the actions of the people that work for him. As President Harry Truman once said so eloquently "THE BUCK STOPS HERE!"
And I would just like to say that I am a VERY PISSED OFF :mad: and EMBARRASSED :sad2: American citizen.

[N.Bailey]

Umm...obviously. :teeth:

She asked for help. Everyone knew she asked for help, because she did it on live television. People are defending the administration (and by that, I mean everyone from Bush to FEMA and HSA) because it wasn't done "formally". Sorry, but I don't think anyone is going to quibble over beaurocracy when people are dying, Charade.

Obviously, you don't have a clue as to why those of us that criticize are so vocal in our opposition. There are a number of things the president has done that I've supported (standards for schools and the Afghanistan war being two off the top of my head). But the obstinate refusal to see any flaw or allow any criticism by so many on these boards is just baffling to me. The man has done some things right. I don't know that anybody would argue that. But he's failed miserably at many other things, too. In my opinion, this is absolutely one of those failures.

(ETA...Hope your GF is ok !)


I don't disagree with you. There is plenty of blame to go around here. The only thing I'll take issue to is the fact that, remember when the mayor was on the phone swearing? We know he was just a little PO'd and it's certainly understandable. When asked however if he'd called for Martial Law, he replied that he had. When asked if the governor had done the same, he acknowledged that she hadn't. This was pretty darn late in the week. Thursday maybe?

I'm not even sure Martial Law exists in LA, but it seems the mayor wasn't so in the governor's corner.

[totalia]

We're from New Orleans, or Metairie to be exact. As we were leaving the city Saturday night we were listening to a N.O. talk radio station. We constantly heard announcements telling people that if they did not have the means to evacuate, to please go to certain locations and they would be taken from the city. I'm pretty sure this was all over ALL media airwaves, not just talk radio. Not only that, announcements were made constantly as to what people should bring to shelters.
In 1998 (for Hurricane Georges) the Superdome was opened as a shelter, the mayor SWORE it would never happen again because of the riots, vandalism, and general disrespect toward the city then. People were shown then actually carrying out things that obviously belonged in the dome. When evacuees were GIVEN food from the concession stands in the dome, they actually complained about the "quality" of it.
All of this is just so sad. Not any one person can be blamed, it started when people chose not to leave. Someone posted that some people aren't educated enough to know what's going to happen. Being from there, I can tell you that if you aren't educated about it, it's your own fault, the information is ALWAYS there for us. At the beginning of every hurricane season, at least once a week for a month, local news is preempted for a program called "Surviving the Big Hurricane", or something to that effect. We are offered free tracking maps, free evacuation route maps, free lists of what to have on hand in case of a bad storm, etc. Also, you can't call for a mandatory evacuation unless you have the manpower to back it up in such a highly populated area.
I apologize for going off on a tangent. I'm just so sad to see my city that I love so much, and all of its people, history and culture underwater.

Your from Metairie. Do you have any idea of the state of Metairie atm? My fiance's aunts house in Metairie. My fiance lives in (I think its called) Fat City. Just looking to see if any of it is flooded and the like.

From the sounds of it, his aunts house may have relatively escaped the damage (except the possibility of the looters). We think my fiance's apartment building is gone from what we've heard.

Do you have any information? It would be appreciated. I'd like to let him and his family know.

[brittsmum1998]

Just like the 'buch stops here' ....'truth is sometimes stranger than fiction' :goodvibes


ETA: there is always Canada :wave2:

[totalia]

What exactly is that the Bush apologists seem to be missing?

Building levees to protect one of the most important ports in the country is not the job of the local government. They don't have the resources. That is the job of the federal government.

........................................

Shame, shame, shame!
Well said.

[dvcgirl]

Well said DVC girl. I totally agree about Jesse Jackson...such an opportunist. I'm
African-American and Jesse doe not represent the mind-set of all African-Americans. I don't think the issue is racist, but it is a class problem. There were a lot of African-Americans who could afford to leave NO.

I do think that buses should have been brought in to get those people out since it was a mandatory evacuation.

I totally agree. It's a class problem. I heard an awful statistic today...that 50% of the children in NO, many of them African-American, live below the poverty level. However, this information was well known to the local government, state government and FEMA. Part of the "Hurricane Pam" exercise had statistics stating how many would evac...and how many wouldn't. One of the reasons that people couldn't leave is that they had no way to leave. Everyone knew that. And they also knew that they'd have *thousands* of people at the Superdome and they had nothing there for them. No protection for them. Those poor people were dumped off there and left to fend for themselves under the worst of human conditions. Horrific planning, on every level.

Don't get me wrong though, now matter how flawlessly the evac went off, some people just *won't* leave. It happens with every hurricane, and many older people just won't leave their home, their pets....and they can't be forceably removed. I think that many, many people would have died...but no doubt, many others have died unnecessarily. And that's where the local, state and federal government needs to be held accountable.

[J.C.&ALI'SMOM]

The original question is about the response AFTER the hurricane. The problems with the response taking so long after the hurricane is FEMA.

Now there are plenty of others who are responsible for the lack of prep BEFORE.

ThAnswr has it right. The levees are the responsibility of the federal gov. and the funding for the improvements have been cut for years.

Where was W when the worst disaster of our lifetimes was going on. He made it to the WTC within a day or two, but barely mentioned the Gulf Coast's destruction and didn't show up until yesterday. UNBELIEVABLE!! He could have had the legacy of a pres. who held the US together through 2 disasters, but no. He behaved as if he were hardly aware of it for several days.

What exactly is that the Bush apologists seem to be missing?

Building levees to protect one of the most important ports in the country is not the job of the local government. They don't have the resources. That is the job of the federal government.

The problem with this poll is it takes this tragedy as a whole. Different people are to blame for the events that transpired at different times. Of course, the mayor was reponsible for the lead-up to storm. Yes, it was his responsibility that he convey the message this is serious. Yes, it was the repsponbility of the governor when she realized this situation was starting to spiral out of control.

But, ultimately, it was the responbility of the federal government for not staying on top of this situation and for not calling the governor and mayor immediately. How do I know that didn't happen? Because none of the Bush apologists can come up with proof of that phone call. The CIC failed to get in touch with the troops to find out what was going on and what was needed.

On Monday, while a category 4 hurricane was hitting the gulf coast, Bush was peddling his medicare hooey and enjoying a piece of birthday cake with John McCain. Condoleeza Rice was shopping for shoes on Fifth Avenue in NYC.

No phone call from the WH: "Mayor Nagin, what's going on? Governor Blanco, what do you need?"

On Tuesday, when the floods had hit NO and the gangs were roving the strrets and critically ill patients were dying in the hospital, when there was no food, water, or power at the Superdome, Bush was playing the guitar.

No phone call from the WH: Mayor Nagin, what do you need? Governor Blanco, what's the situation and what do you need?

Nothing.

And the absolute crowning glory of just how out of touch the federal government was when the head of FEMA told the world the federal government didn't know there were people in the convention center. I knew it because I was watching CNN.

Too many Bush apologists think photo ops such as having your arm around a fireman at the WTC is leadership. That's not leadership, that's opportunism. Leadership was Rudy Giuliani walking the streets of NYC leading the charge, comforting people, answering questions.........that's leadership not phony photo ops on an aircraft carrier.

Anyone can look good during a canned moment and in good times. Real leaders emerge when times are bad. Real leaders lift up a country and a people.......FDR, during the worst of the depression said "My friends, we have nothing to fear but fear itself". And then he went to work.

The saddest of all is how so many people are willing to settle for less than the best from their government. We used to be a nation that thought big, had big ideas and big dreams. Now, we're a nation that makes excuses for small people.

Shame, shame, shame!

[What the Heck]

Wow, that's pathetic seeing that the only people that routinely watch Faux News are republicans.source?

[What the Heck]

What exactly is that the Bush apologists seem to be missing? What exactly is wrong with those who want to bash Bush no matter what?

Building levees to protect one of the most important ports in the country is not the job of the local government. They don't have the resources. That is the job of the federal government.True. And it has been the job of the federal government for at least the last 100 years. He should have done something when he took office. The previous president should have done something in his 8 years. The president before that should have done something as well.

The problem with this poll is it takes this tragedy as a whole. Different people are to blame for the events that transpired at different times. Of course, the mayor was reponsible for the lead-up to storm. Yes, it was his responsibility that he convey the message this is serious. Yes, it was the repsponbility of the governor when she realized this situation was starting to spiral out of control. They were also the only ones with the authority to respond until the Governor asked specifically for troops and supplies. Why is that the Presidents fault?

But, ultimately, it was the responbility of the federal government for not staying on top of this situation and for not calling the governor and mayor immediately. How do I know that didn't happen? Because none of the Bush apologists can come up with proof of that phone call. The CIC failed to get in touch with the troops to find out what was going on and what was needed. Excuse me? Have you been watching the same news I have? Or just ignoring when they interviewed the congressional members from New Orleans, or the governor of Alabama, etc, all of who said they spoke with the President every day - did the Governor of Louisiana just not want to participate?

On Monday, while a category 4 hurricane was hitting the gulf coast, Bush was peddling his medicare hooey and enjoying a piece of birthday cake with John McCain. Condoleeza Rice was shopping for shoes on Fifth Avenue in NYC. This wasn't good politics, agreed. But, on Monday it was still in the hands of the local governments, which is where it should have been.

No phone call from the WH: "Mayor Nagin, what's going on? Governor Blanco, what do you need?"See my post above. I would like to see your source that this did not happen. Have you heard from the Governor? Has anyone heard from the Governor? The mayor is extremely vocal, how come this is one thing he has not been complaining about?

On Tuesday, when the floods had hit NO and the gangs were roving the strrets and critically ill patients were dying in the hospital, when there was no food, water, or power at the Superdome, Bush was playing the guitar.Again, bad politics, but are you saying we should nationalize the police force? Getting any troops in there with a command and control center (rather than just committing murder by throwing them in) would take and did take a few days. At this point it was still local responsibility.

No phone call from the WH: Mayor Nagin, what do you need? Governor Blanco, what's the situation and what do you need?

Nothing.Nothing from the Governor. She had 7,500 troops at her disposal - where were they? It was local responsibility.

And the absolute crowning glory of just how out of touch the federal government was when the head of FEMA told the world the federal government didn't know there were people in the convention center. I knew it because I was watching CNN. Did the city know? I've heard that the city had never intended it to be used that way, they did not know the people were there. If it was just FEMA, you have a point, if it was everyone else, why are they supposed to know more about it than the local people who set it up?

Anyone can look good during a canned moment and in good times. Real leaders emerge when times are bad. Real leaders lift up a country and a people.......FDR, during the worst of the depression said "My friends, we have nothing to fear but fear itself". And then he went to work. Where is the Governor?

The saddest of all is how so many people are willing to settle for less than the best from their government. We used to be a nation that thought big, had big ideas and big dreams. Now, we're a nation that makes excuses for small people. Less? How long did it take the federal government after Andrew? How about last year? Did you see federal troops or National Guard? When did they get there? And that was with passable roads.

Shame, shame, shame!Yes, it is, those who would make it out to be something other than what it is. Did Bush do some things wrong? Yes, but to say it's all his fault or even the lions share is ludicrous.

[Deb & Bill]

Actually, I haven't seen anyone say that Bush doesn't share the responsibility at all (or that he is a saint, LOL)...I think most people are in agreement that the blame does not rest at any one departments feet.


NOPE, FEMA is at fault. Ultimately Homeland Security. A few days late and a few dollars short. H&HS was talking about putting mobile hospitals up on Wednesday within 72 hours - 10-12 of them. How many are up now?

[totalia]

Question, who does FEMA answer to? And if Bush had given the order to FEMA to send in aid emergency and that was ignored until FEMA felt willing to go in to deliver that aid, the why hasn't the head of FEMA been fired and replaced with whoever is below him as the head of FEMA just showed he doesn't have the countries best interests at heart or know what he's doing?

Seriously, if your a boss at a job and you give one of your employees the directive to do something right now and they take forever to do it...

What would you do? If its just a regular job, you'd write them up.

But a regular job probably doesn't have thousands of lives at stake and the whole world watching.

So why hasn't the President done anything against this person who waited so bloody long to have FEMA respond to a life or death situation except make excuses for him?

[Deb & Bill]

...So why hasn't the President done anything against this person who waited so bloody long to have FEMA respond to a life or death situation except make excuses for him?

You don't fire your buddy. You give him a nickname and tell him he did good work. And look the other way.

[totalia]

Thats disturbing. Its not like he was just hired to make sure a bunch of waitresses didn't steal tips.

[NeverEnufWDW]

I blame the Governor for constantly looking like a deer in headlights and the President of the United States for letting us down and not getting his butt back to DC (yes, I know he can do everything from Crawford but it's the symbolism of DC that contributes to the feeling that he is taking control and that he cares what's happening)

Yes, that's it by God !!!! This chaos could have all been avoided if there had been more SYMBOLISM. :rotfl:

[JerJan]

And that's ALL I can say to you "WHAT THE HECK?" Are you kidding me? Get your head out of the sand! Bush is the COMMANDER IN CHIEF he is ULTIMATLELY RESPONSIBLE...I need not go on.

[auntpolly]

Are all you democrats taking notes for when we have the next democratic president? I can't wait for the first one of them to ask why the president didn't do something...

....."not his job!", I'll say!!!! :)

[JerJan]

This not about being a democrat or a republican. It's about accountability... I don't give a Rat's A-- what political party anyone is from.

[auntpolly]

This not about being a democrat or a republican. It's about accountability... I don't give a Rat's A-- what political party anyone is from.

Of course not, but I just can't help remembering how much more upset the republicans got over the stain in Monica Lewinski's dress than about something like this.

[momof2inPA]

President
Fema

[Kitty 34]

The president has talked about protecting us from mass destruction for a long time, thus his reasons for the war in Iraq.

He didn't do a very good job protecting people from the mass destruction of a hurricane. No, he couldn't stop the hurricane but he certainly could have done so much right after that he didn't. :confused3:

[What the Heck]

And that's ALL I can say to you "WHAT THE HECK?" Are you kidding me? Get your head out of the sand! Bush is the COMMANDER IN CHIEF he is ULTIMATLELY RESPONSIBLE...I need not go on.
Yes? :smooth:

[What the Heck]

Of course not, but I just can't help remembering how much more upset the republicans got over the stain in Monica Lewinski's dress than about something like this.No, actually the Republicans were upset about a president committing perjury, conspiracy to committ perjury, etc. You know, crimes?

[M:SteveO]

He didn't do a very good job protecting people from the mass destruction of a hurricane. No, he couldn't stop the hurricane but he certainly could have done so much right after that he didn't.

What exactly could have he personally done that is not being done now? And don't say that he could have evacuated the Superdome, or the convention center, or any other thing. If you have listened to the general in charge of the entire operation (General Honoree), you will realize that everything that could be done is being done. People are being rescued by helicopters 24/7, the levees are being rebuilt, the city is being drained, and the rescue operation is "making it happen" (according to Honoree). "We would not have evacuated thousands of people if the system didn't work. Listen to this general, he knows what he's talking about, many on these boards, including myself, don't fully know what's going on.

[EsmeraldaX]

Local gov't first

Followed by the federal.

Basically, I think I would have picked all of the above, in the order I just listed.

[JerJan]

No, actually the Republicans were upset about a president committing perjury, conspiracy to committ perjury, etc. You know, crimes?

Aren't MURDER and INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER still crimes? I believe that's why some democrats are upset? :confused3

[What the Heck]

Aren't MURDER and INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER still crimes? I believe that's why some democrats are upset? :confused3
And your proof? Your conviction? If he is guilty of these, bring it on. Have you even bothered to look at the facts that are coming out now, at this early day? It appears more and more that the "delay" was planned - because if the troops had gone in earlier they would have been victims, not rescuers. But hey, thats not as good headlines as "Bush is a racist" or "Bush is a murderer". After all, Bush should have known of the people in the Convention Center, even when the mayor and his government did not. Please.

[totalia]

The president has talked about protecting us from mass destruction for a long time, thus his reasons for the war in Iraq.

He didn't do a very good job protecting people from the mass destruction of a hurricane. No, he couldn't stop the hurricane but he certainly could have done so much right after that he didn't. :confused3:
Yes Exactly. Well put.

[ThAnswr]

Are all you democrats taking notes for when we have the next democratic president? I can't wait for the first one of them to ask why the president didn't do something...

....."not his job!", I'll say!!!! :)

Let me tell you the notes you should be taking. THe next time some rightie tells you that we're all Americans and we all want the same things, watch your back. Today, Newt Gingrich on Sean Insanity, had the cajones to say "we have to put this divisiveness aside. It's hurting the country". Gee, ya think, Newtie. Guess what, Newtie, divisiveness was all fine and dandy when it served the righties purpose, but now that the righties are deservedly getting it up the gazoorch, oooooh let's stop.

Not me..........I don't forget that the very ones who want cooperation were the very ones who stabbed those on my side of the aisle in the back when it came to the lead up to the war in Iraq.

When people want to hash out problems and come to solutions, they have to have the sense that the other guy is an honest broker. Sorry, there are no honest brokers in this administration. They created this mess, and the only way to fix it is to give the righties the heave-ho.

I notice all the Bush apologists are out in full spin mode trying to pin the blame on the mayor or the governor or the parrish president. Newsflash: This could very easily have been a terrorist attack and the Bush administration is no more prepared for it now then it was on September 11, 2001. Billions have been spent by this administration for nothing other than window dressing and a nifty color code alert system.

The system this administration set up is a dismal failure. You want change........get rid of that sack of crap sitting in the Oval Office.

[Virgo10]

Let me tell you the notes you should be taking. THe next time some rightie tells you that we're all Americans and we all want the same things, watch your back.

Lots of interesting stuff *snipped* for brevity.


While I agree with most of what you said, I really believe this transends party lines. The people in charge, plain and simple, just don't know what they're doing. They had the facts years ago and did not act to protect the people they were elected to serve. Bureaucracy at its finest. :rolleyes:

[lyeag]

http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/UndertheDome/090605.html

Like thousands of other Washingtonians worried about family and friends in New Orleans after Katrina struck the Crescent City, former Rep. Bob Livingston (R-La.) and his wife, Bonnie, had some uneasy moments last week.

Livingston, the former Appropriations Committee chairman turned successful lobbyist, said his 83-year-old mother escaped to Shreveport with his sister and brother-in-law. His wife’s mother, also 83, fled the city just in time.

Livingston had to wait for word of the fate of his oldest son’s in-laws. On Friday, he received word that they were safe.
Livingston represented the New Orleans metro area for more than 20 years. He owns a condominium and two rental properties there and feared they were damaged or destroyed.

He was particularly critical of Gov. Kathleen Blanco (D) for failing to declare martial law promptly to deter widespread looting.

“I raised hell with the governor for not declaring martial law,” he said Thursday. “I told her last [Wednesday] night I was going on ‘Hannity & Colmes’ and criticize her for not doing that, and 20 minutes later, she did.”

[totalia]

Let me tell you the notes you should be taking. THe next time some rightie tells you that we're all Americans and we all want the same things, watch your back. Today, Newt Gingrich on Sean Insanity, had the cajones to say "we have to put this divisiveness aside. It's hurting the country". Gee, ya think, Newtie. Guess what, Newtie, divisiveness was all fine and dandy when it served the righties purpose, but now that the righties are deservedly getting it up the gazoorch, oooooh let's stop.

Not me..........I don't forget that the very ones who want cooperation were the very ones who stabbed those on my side of the aisle in the back when it came to the lead up to the war in Iraq.

When people want to hash out problems and come to solutions, they have to have the sense that the other guy is an honest broker. Sorry, there are no honest brokers in this administration. They created this mess, and the only way to fix it is to give the righties the heave-ho.

I notice all the Bush apologists are out in full spin mode trying to pin the blame on the mayor or the governor or the parrish president. Newsflash: This could very easily have been a terrorist attack and the Bush administration is no more prepared for it now then it was on September 11, 2001. Billions have been spent by this administration for nothing other than window dressing and a nifty color code alert system.

The system this administration set up is a dismal failure. You want change........get rid of that sack of crap sitting in the Oval Office.

Incredibly well put. I so very much agree with you.

[N.Bailey]

http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/UndertheDome/090605.html

Like thousands of other Washingtonians worried about family and friends in New Orleans after Katrina struck the Crescent City, former Rep. Bob Livingston (R-La.) and his wife, Bonnie, had some uneasy moments last week.

Livingston, the former Appropriations Committee chairman turned successful lobbyist, said his 83-year-old mother escaped to Shreveport with his sister and brother-in-law. His wife’s mother, also 83, fled the city just in time.

Livingston had to wait for word of the fate of his oldest son’s in-laws. On Friday, he received word that they were safe.
Livingston represented the New Orleans metro area for more than 20 years. He owns a condominium and two rental properties there and feared they were damaged or destroyed.

He was particularly critical of Gov. Kathleen Blanco (D) for failing to declare martial law promptly to deter widespread looting.

“I raised hell with the governor for not declaring martial law,” he said Thursday. “I told her last [Wednesday] night I was going on ‘Hannity & Colmes’ and criticize her for not doing that, and 20 minutes later, she did.”


More and more is coming out all the time and for some reason, it all seems to be pointing directly into the lap of the good ole governor of Louisiana. I'll reserve my judgment for now however, but IMO, too many are basing their opinion on emotion rather than law.

[totalia]

Because Law is not always right. Just as Religion is not always right.

In this case, saving lives was more important than peoples legal sensibilities.

[N.Bailey]

Because Law is not always right. Just as Religion is not always right.

In this case, saving lives was more important than peoples legal sensibilities.

Actually, no lives are more important than the US Constitution. Not IMO anyway.

[totalia]

*shakes her head* And without living people, your legal documents are just pieces of paper of a bygone civilization.

Your people should come first. Legal documents change with time. But people are forever. If you have no people, everything you fought for means nothing at all.

[N.Bailey]

*shakes her head* And without living people, your legal documents are just pieces of paper of a bygone civilization.

Your people should come first. Legal documents change with time. But people are forever. If you have no people, everything you fought for means nothing at all.



Without the Constitution, we have no country to protect and absolutely no reason to protect it. We can carry this back and forth till doomsday, but you'll not change my opinion.

[totalia]

Do you think my country doesn't exist then? Our Constitution didn't exist until 1982 when Pierre Trudeau fought to bring it into being. Its probably one of the few good things the man is remembered for doing.

Your Constitution is not your country. Your people are. The Constitution will change as needed. Such is the nature of that kind of document.

Without your people, you are not a country. You are not a belief. You are nothing but a bunch of savages fighting each other over who gets what spoils.

Without your people then what are you fighting for?

[N.Bailey]

Do you think my country doesn't exist then? Our Constitution didn't exist until 1982 when Pierre Trudeau fought to bring it into being. Its probably one of the few good things the man is remembered for doing.

Your Constitution is not your country. Your people are. The Constitution will change as needed. Such is the nature of that kind of document.

Without your people, you are not a country. You are not a belief. You are nothing but a bunch of savages fighting each other over who gets what spoils.

Without your people then what are you fighting for?
I can't say what your country was founded on, so I have no idea if your constitution is the backbone of your country or not.

Here however, it's a whole heck of a lot more than a piece of paper. Yes, our founding fathers made provisions that allow us to Amend that so called "piece of paper." It's been Amended a total of 28 times. The 1st 10 being the Bill of Rights. Since, it's only been Amended 17 times total. That "OUT" that our founding fathers gave is because in their wisdom, they knew they things would change over time.

The Constitution is above even the President of the United States. I don't ever expect you to understand it though. For you, it would be simply head knowledge. For many Americans however, it's heart knowledge.

[totalia]

We have a Costitution and we have a Bill of Rights. If you'd like, I can give you the gvt link that will tell you what they say.

It IS the backbone of the country. But we don't constantly quote it. It just IS.

Funny that the US Constitution can be listened to when people are dying in your own country and yet rights are denied to regular citizens because they don't love people of the opposite sex.

Very strange indeed.

You see, just because something exists, doesn't make it always right.

People were dying while the gvt was trying not to step on each others toes. How you can't see something wrong in that, I don't know.

[N.Bailey]

We have a Costitution and we have a Bill of Rights. If you'd like, I can give you the gvt link that will tell you what they say.

It IS the backbone of the country. But we don't constantly quote it. It just IS.

Funny that the US Constitution can be listened to when people are dying in your own country and yet rights are denied to regular citizens because they don't love people of the opposite sex.

Very strange indeed.

You see, just because something exists, doesn't make it always right.

People were dying while the gvt was trying not to step on each others toes. How you can't see something wrong in that, I don't know.



How you can equate your constitution to ours when you already stated that you didn't even have one till 1982 is beyond me. I'd say that it was not the backbone in forming your country and probably a reason why you don't give it the same weight we give ours.

The United States was founded on the US Constitution. It is to many of us what the Bible is to Christians. As I said, there is nothing I can say that will convince you of what it means to us, and you will never change my opinion. So at this time, I'll back out of this conversation because we're debating a topic that you have no real comprehension of.

[totalia]

No, yours means so much because you had a war to get it. In other words, people died. People died.

Apparently, your forefathers understood that the country exists because of the people in it.

See where I'm going with this?

[Kitty 34]

What exactly could have he personally done that is not being done now? And don't say that he could have evacuated the Superdome, or the convention center, or any other thing. If you have listened to the general in charge of the entire operation (General Honoree), you will realize that everything that could be done is being done. People are being rescued by helicopters 24/7, the levees are being rebuilt, the city is being drained, and the rescue operation is "making it happen" (according to Honoree). "We would not have evacuated thousands of people if the system didn't work. Listen to this general, he knows what he's talking about, many on these boards, including myself, don't fully know what's going on.

I just wish he would have done all this several days sooner.....I think we would have more survivors than deaths. :(

[What the Heck]

Because Law is not always right. Just as Religion is not always right.

In this case, saving lives was more important than peoples legal sensibilities.
And law is based on facts where emotions is based on how one feels. Of course, we don't need facts do we? (Oh no, now go to the fact that people are dieing - why, right to the jugular. Let's not worry about what really happened to cause them to die, lets just say that they are dieing and that it is all Bush's fault - if enough people say it, or even enough few saying it over and over, it must be true).

[What the Heck]

Let me tell you the notes you should be taking. THe next time some rightie tells you that we're all Americans and we all want the same things, watch your back. Today, Newt Gingrich on Sean Insanity, had the cajones to say "we have to put this divisiveness aside. It's hurting the country". Gee, ya think, Newtie. Guess what, Newtie, divisiveness was all fine and dandy when it served the righties purpose, but now that the righties are deservedly getting it up the gazoorch, oooooh let's stop.

Not me..........I don't forget that the very ones who want cooperation were the very ones who stabbed those on my side of the aisle in the back when it came to the lead up to the war in Iraq.

When people want to hash out problems and come to solutions, they have to have the sense that the other guy is an honest broker. Sorry, there are no honest brokers in this administration. They created this mess, and the only way to fix it is to give the righties the heave-ho.

I notice all the Bush apologists are out in full spin mode trying to pin the blame on the mayor or the governor or the parrish president. Newsflash: This could very easily have been a terrorist attack and the Bush administration is no more prepared for it now then it was on September 11, 2001. Billions have been spent by this administration for nothing other than window dressing and a nifty color code alert system.

The system this administration set up is a dismal failure. You want change........get rid of that sack of crap sitting in the Oval Office.You know, I usually have a lot of respect for your posts. They are for the most part well thought out, and based on fact. This time you are letting the facts slip away and letting hate take over your posts. You are not even open to anyone else having done anything else wrong at this point. At least that is what your posts are telling us.

There is a lot of things that went wrong and a lot of things that went right. We can get into the blame game now, get everything locked in so that when the facts do come in, we can ignore them. Or, we can wait and see what really happened - what happened in front of the cameras and what happened behind them.

As for Iraq, I won't even go there now. It doesn't belong in a thread about Katrina. You could be 100% true (I don't believe you are, but just so) and it would not help the victims of Katrina.

[What the Heck]

I just wish he would have done all this several days sooner.....I think we would have more survivors than deaths. :(Have you listened to the Generals and Admirals? Have you listened to the timelines of what was going on? People ended up not getting water and food (water and food that was supposed to be brought by the people themselves - the Mayor had told them to bring 5 days worth) because they were on rescue missions, one person at a time. They had people coming, but they had to take a slow route - they had to make sure the troops rescuing the people in New Orleans would not become victims themselves.

Let's not get our minds set in stone that "this was wrong, that was wrong". We see the end results, we don't see the reasoning made that brought those about. Some of the reasoning will be proved wrong - lets wait and see who's thought processes were wrong - after we get the people saved.

[ThAnswr]

You know, I usually have a lot of respect for your posts. They are for the most part well thought out, and based on fact. This time you are letting the facts slip away and letting hate take over your posts. You are not even open to anyone else having done anything else wrong at this point. At least that is what your posts are telling us.

Then you must not be reading my posts. I've said over and over again mistakes were made on all levels of government from the mayor to the president.

This was a colossal failure of government and not the failure of some poor ******* who had no way of getting out of the city. Mayor Nagin was the one who suggested these people get to the Superdome because anything was better than what was coming, and he was right. How many of those people would've been dead by now.

There is a lot of things that went wrong and a lot of things that went right. We can get into the blame game now, get everything locked in so that when the facts do come in, we can ignore them. Or, we can wait and see what really happened - what happened in front of the cameras and what happened behind them.

Up until the last 2 days, tell me what went right. Btw, we don't even know what the death count is. If it turns out 5000 people died, are you still going to be touting what went right?

You tell me not to judge the situation before get all the facts.......well, physician, heal thyself.

All I know is I and millions internationally watched the United States of America look like a third-world country. I and millions internationally watched a president play the guitar while water was flooding New Orleans, Biloxi was reduced to matchsticks, and Gulfport wouldn't even be recognized.

This country was disgraced by elected officials who actions were governed not by deliberate malice, but by incompetent ignorance. You choose which one is worse.

As for Iraq, I won't even go there now. It doesn't belong in a thread about Katrina. You could be 100% true (I don't believe you are, but just so) and it would not help the victims of Katrina.

I suggest you go back and read what I said about Iraq. After 9/11, this country came together and backed the president unlike any other time in history with the possible exception of WWII. Btw, I'm included in that group.

And then there was the lead up to the Iraq war and those of us who questioned suddenly became the enemy. Sorry, there are some things you don't forget, or at the very least, keep at the back of your mind.

So now we have another national crises, and the ones who had done the most dividing such as Gingrich, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly and all the rest of the rightie talking heads, suddenly call for unity and we all have to work together to find solutions, etc. Puhleeeeze. Sorry, my trust reserve is a little down now.

And, yes, the divisions and policies that have become part of this country, whether for either political or financial reasons, are hurting the victims of Katrina. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Words and actions have a way of coming back to haunt people.

If you want to help the survivors of Katrina, give a swift kick in the *** to the ones who've been doing the dividing and creating these policies.

And if you want to seek solutions to the problems in this country, find some honest brokers and there's none in this administration.

[totalia]

Well put ThAnswer. Very well put.

[totalia]

And law is based on facts where emotions is based on how one feels. Of course, we don't need facts do we? (Oh no, now go to the fact that people are dieing - why, right to the jugular. Let's not worry about what really happened to cause them to die, lets just say that they are dieing and that it is all Bush's fault - if enough people say it, or even enough few saying it over and over, it must be true).
They WERE dying. It WAS the gvt's fault for lack of response. I don't lay that at the governor and mayor's feet when they asked for help ahead of time.

So yes, lets talk about facts. I think your ignoring them to defend Bush.

And, if you've been listening, even Clinton agrees that the gvt failed the people and thinks there should be an investigation.

Or are you ignoring that fact too?

[What the Heck]

They WERE dying. It WAS the gvt's fault for lack of response. I don't lay that at the governor and mayor's feet when they asked for help ahead of time.

So yes, lets talk about facts. I think your ignoring them to defend Bush.

And, if you've been listening, even Clinton agrees that the gvt failed the people and thinks there should be an investigation.

Or are you ignoring that fact too?No, I'm not. I am all for an investigation, I just think we should avoid the lynching before the investigation has already started.

I believe the investigation should also, at least at first be looking for what went wrong instead of who was responsible. Lets get the process fixed in case we have to face it again. After that we can look for who's head to put on a pole if you still wish.

[What the Heck]

Then you must not be reading my posts. I've said over and over again mistakes were made on all levels of government from the mayor to the president.

This was a colossal failure of government and not the failure of some poor ******* who had no way of getting out of the city. Mayor Nagin was the one who suggested these people get to the Superdome because anything was better than what was coming, and he was right. How many of those people would've been dead by now. It was a colossal failure that is now starting to work out. Granted too late for those who are dead, but the help is there now.


Up until the last 2 days, tell me what went right. Btw, we don't even know what the death count is. If it turns out 5000 people died, are you still going to be touting what went right?

You tell me not to judge the situation before get all the facts.......well, physician, heal thyself.

All I know is I and millions internationally watched the United States of America look like a third-world country. I and millions internationally watched a president play the guitar while water was flooding New Orleans, Biloxi was reduced to matchsticks, and Gulfport wouldn't even be recognized.

This country was disgraced by elected officials who actions were governed not by deliberate malice, but by incompetent ignorance. You choose which one is worse. Well, I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV. :smooth: As for things going right, how about the Coast Guard beginning operations on Monday and the people they rescued? How about the Navy beginning operations on Tuesday? How about the evacuation of most of the city? (yes, I know, it should have been the whole city and that is what we should make sure our evacuation plans call for - to get all of the people out). Those are a few.

Your points about the President are very good. I agree. He sucks to high heaven as a politician. I am completely serious when I say I wish the Democrats could have come up with a decent candidate in 2004, but they had John (lets give in to the North Koreans and really piss of the Chinese and see what happens) Kerry. He should also look at whoever on his staff told him it was ok to continue with his schedule for the week, that person needs to be fired. If the President had been more Presidential we probably wouldn't be having conversations like this. But he didn't.


I suggest you go back and read what I said about Iraq. After 9/11, this country came together and backed the president unlike any other time in history with the possible exception of WWII. Btw, I'm included in that group.

And then there was the lead up to the Iraq war and those of us who questioned suddenly became the enemy. Sorry, there are some things you don't forget, or at the very least, keep at the back of your mind.

So now we have another national crises, and the ones who had done the most dividing such as Gingrich, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly and all the rest of the rightie talking heads, suddenly call for unity and we all have to work together to find solutions, etc. Puhleeeeze. Sorry, my trust reserve is a little down now.

And, yes, the divisions and policies that have become part of this country, whether for either political or financial reasons, are hurting the victims of Katrina. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Words and actions have a way of coming back to haunt people.

If you want to help the survivors of Katrina, give a swift kick in the *** to the ones who've been doing the dividing and creating these policies.

And if you want to seek solutions to the problems in this country, find some honest brokers and there's none in this administration.I disagree with your defination of those who have done the most dividing. I would include Al Sharpton, Howard Dean, John Kerry.

Should we have gone in to Iraq? We have had this discussion often. And I say it still should not be a part of Katrina. We need to come together not for the politicians, but for the Americans who are victims of Katrina.

[totalia]

Its working out because of Honnore (sp?). It has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with a no nonsense military man who finally was able to get his butt in there and get things done that commands respect just simply by being himself.

Just because its working out now does NOT excuse what happened in the first days after the nightmare began.

And it casts very very serious doubts about the Bush administration. Homeland Security is a joke. And since Bush and his cronies created it and Bush was partying while people were dying.. who do you think takes the brunt of that?

[WebmasterAlex]

General Honore as wonderful as he might be can't do anything without a lot of infrastructure behind him. I'm sure he is doing a great job but don't kid yourself, he is far from a one man show and he is on the phone to the pentagon a lot.

[What the Heck]

Its working out because of Honnore (sp?). It has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with a no nonsense military man who finally was able to get his butt in there and get things done that commands respect just simply by being himself.

Just because its working out now does NOT excuse what happened in the first days after the nightmare began.

And it casts very very serious doubts about the Bush administration. Homeland Security is a joke. And since Bush and his cronies created it and Bush was partying while people were dying.. who do you think takes the brunt of that?I agree with you regarding the General. My question, though, is if it's the Federal Governments responsibility, why is Louisiana the lone state saying it was a joke? Why isn't Mississippi screaming it? Why isn't Alabama? Why isn't Florida?

[cats7494]

I lay most of the fault with the federal government. Bush is a "top down" leader and this leads to ineffective local leadership.

[wvrevy]

Not sure if this has been posted or not, but this is from the website of the office of homeland security:

HSA Web Page (http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp)

Emergencies & Disasters

Preparing America

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.