Why this issue is political to me.

[babar]

Everyone gets so upset when politics is brought into these kinds of situations. "Now isn't the time for this" they say. Okay, well when is the time?
I can't think of a better time, a time when our own people are dying, a national crisis, and we can't understand why it's happening. I don't know what some of you expect of a president, but I expected him to do a lot more than he's done. You can blame it all you want on the local officials, but when it comes down to it, I'd be looking for the President in something of this big a scope. I am disappointed beyond words in this whole debaucle, and I feel like shaking anyone I know who still supports Bush and screaming WHY??? :teeth:

Anyways, that's why I feel it's political.

[Free4Life11]

ITA. And it's not just about finding someone to blame. No one is stupid to think that President or any government official could do anything by themselves to completely change the situation. But being the president means that you are held to a higher level; people EXPECT to see leadership from him and I think leadership was sorely lacking this week.

I'd also like to point that this isn't just coming from "bushhaters" (Don't you just love that? VERY intelligent!) but people WHO VOTED for Bush and supported him and are frustarated and outraged.

[jrydberg]

Frankly, I'm disgusted by posts that seek to apportion blame regarding the hurricane. It was a monumental natural disaster. Americans seem to want to blame someone for everything. That's the reason we have a zillion lawyers and lawsuits.

The simple fact is, nature is to blame. The simple fact is, it was only a matter of time before New Orleans experienced this. The simple fact is, had this happened in 1950, none of you would be blaming anyone because you wouldn't even know a lot of the details.

Now, any event is subject to so much scrutiny that no politician (mayor of New Orleans, governor of Louisiana, Senators, Congressmen, the President) could possibly live up to public expectations. People are angry at the devastation and the suffering -- got it. But why is your anger directed at those trying to help? Because they're not helping right? Because they're not helping fast enough? Man, I'd hate to be in the position of trying to help some of the people on these boards.

As the general who led the convoy into town said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already." This from the general that the mayor praised for being someone who would get things done.

[babar]

Frankly, I'm disgusted by posts that seek to apportion blame regarding the hurricane. It was a monumental natural disaster. Americans seem to want to blame someone for everything. That's the reason we have a zillion lawyers and lawsuits.

The simple fact is, nature is to blame. The simple fact is, it was only a matter of time before New Orleans experienced this. The simple fact is, had this happened in 1950, none of you would be blaming anyone because you wouldn't even know a lot of the details.

Now, any event is subject to so much scrutiny that no politician (mayor of New Orleans, governor of Louisiana, Senators, Congressmen, the President) could possibly live up to public expectations. People are angry at the devastation and the suffering -- got it. But why is your anger directed at those trying to help? Because they're not helping right? Because they're not helping fast enough? Man, I'd hate to be in the position of trying to help some of the people on these boards.

As the general who led the convoy into town said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already." This from the general that the mayor praised for being someone who would get things done.

Well, sorry you are disgusted about what I think. Can't help it, I'm trying to understand, but I just can't. :)

[jrydberg]

Well, sorry you are disgusted about what I think. Can't help it, I'm trying to understand, but I just can't. :)

Trying to understand why I'm disgusted by it? Or trying to understand why you can't help it?

[auntpolly]

Frankly, I'm disgusted by posts that seek to apportion blame regarding the hurricane. It was a monumental natural disaster. Americans seem to want to blame someone for everything. That's the reason we have a zillion lawyers and lawsuits.

The simple fact is, nature is to blame. The simple fact is, it was only a matter of time before New Orleans experienced this. The simple fact is, had this happened in 1950, none of you would be blaming anyone because you wouldn't even know a lot of the details.

Now, any event is subject to so much scrutiny that no politician (mayor of New Orleans, governor of Louisiana, Senators, Congressmen, the President) could possibly live up to public expectations. People are angry at the devastation and the suffering -- got it. But why is your anger directed at those trying to help? Because they're not helping right? Because they're not helping fast enough? Man, I'd hate to be in the position of trying to help some of the people on these boards.

As the general who led the convoy into town said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already." This from the general that the mayor praised for being someone who would get things done.

Usually you are pretty insightful, but you are dropping the ball on this one. We had a president who Tuesday says oops I'd better get back to work, and a director of FEMA who says people are still in there? Why didn't they leave? Darned right I'm going to blame someone when there is such a catastrophy of nature and we sit around twiddling our thumbs for a few days before spring into action.

Babar is right. This is political because we are stuck with Bush as a president, and if he doesn't want to do his job right, I have the right to complain.

[babar]

Trying to understand why I'm disgusted by it? Or trying to understand why you can't help it?


Trying to understand what happened. Trying to understand why people are still there. Trying to understand how this could have happened. Trying to understand why the President didn't at least apologize, or show some remorse for how badly this went.

I don't need to understand why you are disgusted by what I post. You don't know me, and we are both probably happy with that. :)

[wendy1974]

In a way there are some political implications that go way back before this Hurricane hit. Our government has been aware for a very long time that the levy system in New Orleans could not withstand a Cat.4 or 5 hurricane. Our Senators have repeatedlt asked for extra money for improvements to the levy system as well as coastal restoration and everytime our funding has been cut. The Army Corp of Engineers has been saying for years that they did not have the money it took to improve the levys to withstand this kind of disaster. They have repeatedly told the government what we needed and gotten the response that, "It's not in our budget." My senator has stood on the House floor and said, "Do you want to give us the money that we are requesting now, or pay much more later?" FEMA participated in a mock disaster in the past year that used New Orleans as the "model" and a cat.5 hitting it to go through what they would do...I do think there are some political implications here.

[jrydberg]

Usually you are pretty insightful, but you are dropping the ball on this one. We had a president who Tuesday says oops I'd better get back to work, and a director of FEMA who says people are still in there? Why didn't they leave? Darned right I'm going to blame someone when there is such a catastrophy of nature and we sit around twiddling our thumbs for a few days before spring into action.

Babar is right. This is political because we are stuck with Bush as a president, and if he doesn't want to do his job right, I have the right to complain.

Of coures you have the right to complain. But that doesn't change my reaction to it.

You *really* think we sat around twiddling our thumbs for a few days? Honestly? Do you think people in FEMA, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, etc. are that unfeeling? Do you think people in this Administration are that detached from reality? Everyone in this country knew there were people stuck in New Orleans. Everyone in this country knew they needed help. If you honestly think this Administration sat there for a few days doing nothing, then there's little point in discussing things. Hate away.

[dcentity2000]

Frankly, I'm disgusted by posts that seek to apportion blame regarding the hurricane. It was a monumental natural disaster. Americans seem to want to blame someone for everything. That's the reason we have a zillion lawyers and lawsuits.

The simple fact is, nature is to blame. The simple fact is, it was only a matter of time before New Orleans experienced this. The simple fact is, had this happened in 1950, none of you would be blaming anyone because you wouldn't even know a lot of the details.

Now, any event is subject to so much scrutiny that no politician (mayor of New Orleans, governor of Louisiana, Senators, Congressmen, the President) could possibly live up to public expectations. People are angry at the devastation and the suffering -- got it. But why is your anger directed at those trying to help? Because they're not helping right? Because they're not helping fast enough? Man, I'd hate to be in the position of trying to help some of the people on these boards.

As the general who led the convoy into town said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already." This from the general that the mayor praised for being someone who would get things done.

Just for the record, I don't think that anyone is trying to pin the actual disaster on anyone - it's not our fault that there was a hurricane and it's not our fault that it was of the magnitude that it was.

What we are trying to pin on someone is the inadequate reaction to the disaster - it was sorely understated and we as the public want to know why and who's fault it is, singular or collective, if anyone.

[EDIT]: Maybe it was the best we could do, maybe it wasn't (this is the issue of the debates); the only person, I think, who truly knows is God Himself.



Rich::

[Free4Life11]

My senator has stood on the House floor and said, "Do you want to give us the money that we are requesting now, or pay much more later?" FEMA participated in a mock disaster in the past year that used New Orleans as the "model" and a cat.5 hitting it to go through what they would do...I do think there are some political implications here.

Are you serious??! That is ridiculous! And to think that in the highway bill they just passed, over $200 MILLION was appropriated for a bridge to an UNINHABIATED ISLAND in Alaska! The federal government collects over $2 TRILLION and they say they have no money...sad.

[jrydberg]

Just for the record, I don't think that anyone is trying to pin the actual disaster on anyone - it's not our fault that there was a hurricane and it's not our fault that it was of the magnitude that it was.

What we are trying to pin on someone is the inadequate reaction to the disaster - it was sorely understated and we as the public want to know why and who's fault it is, singular or collective, if anyone.



Rich::

But that's just it. They *are* taking their anger out on the politicians for the hurricane because you can't take it out on nature.

Edited to add: Realistically, it'll be months before any reasonable assessment of relief operations can be done. As much as we know from 24/7 news channels, we really know VERY little about the details. I'm not saying no one screwed up -- that's certainly possible and likely. But the hostility towards those who are genuinely trying to help is appalling to me.

[Laz]

You want to blame the President, fine. I too question all the federal goverment officials right now. But make sure you don't blame them for it all. Much of what has caused this is people failing to take responsibility for their own selves. How long has the city of N.O. know that the levees would not hold past a CAT 3 hurricane? No help from the FEDs? DO IT YOURSELF! It's your city. Take responibility for it. How many of those people stayed when they were ORDERED to get out? You say the homeless had no way to get out. How much had the city, county or state done to aleviate the homeless problem beforehand? I feel horrible for those people down there, and I have donated $ and clothing for the relief, But I can't help but wonder how much of this could have been averted if communities and people would take responsibilty for themselves and not look to the feds for a hand out.

[swilphil]

I'm not a Bush fan, but I don't think he's solely to blame. I do think this is definitely a situation that needs to be looked at politically. The government, on many levels, dropped the ball here--state, local, and federal. I know all of those groups did some things right, but, frankly, too many people have died because of bad decisions on many levels. And it's the politicians who lead our government.

Leave politics out of medical decisions, whether it's reproductive rights or the right to die, but this is definitely a decision where politics comes into play.

[babar]

Of coures you have the right to complain. But that doesn't change my reaction to it.

You *really* think we sat around twiddling our thumbs for a few days? Honestly? Do you think people in FEMA, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, etc. are that unfeeling? Do you think people in this Administration are that detached from reality? Everyone in this country knew there were people stuck in New Orleans. Everyone in this country knew they needed help. If you honestly think this Administration sat there for a few days doing nothing, then there's little point in discussing things. Hate away.

Hate away...hmm....This wasn't about hating Bush, I never really liked the man before, but I didn't hate him. I disagree with some things he has done, but it's never driven me to freak out over him and call for his impeachment!!

But guess what, I'm looking at him now, watching him on tv, back-tracking on what he says (I'm disappointed with the way things were handled is now I'm not disappointed with how it was handled, just the results :rolleyes: ) I'm not happy that he's the man in charge. I don't know who could have handled it better, but sorry, he's a huge disappointment to me.

And your tag-line is ironic today!

[peachgirl]

The simple fact is, nature is to blame.

Nature is to blame for the hurricane...Those in charge are responsible for the response to it.

If you honestly think this Administration sat there for a few days doing nothing, then there's little point in discussing thin

I don't think they intentionally sat around doing nothing. I think they spent a lot of time working very hard at spinning their wheels. The reasons are difficult to list in a short amount of space, but it starts at the top with a President who appoints his buddies to positions that demand people that are qualified on more than the basis that they helped get him elected.

[dcentity2000]

But that's just it. They *are* taking their anger out on the politicians for the hurricane because you can't take it out on nature.

I very respectfully disagree, but with pause to thought. From your posts it is very safe to say that you are a rational, sensible person and if this is how it appears to you, there's almost certainly something that needs fixing, if only the presentation of the statements.

Certainly there is a lot of emotion about and certainly there are cases where said pain from this disaster is being directed at the politicians which is a pity. We need to be as objective as humans can be to safely criticise the executive with a goal to improvement and passion does not mix happily with objectivity.



Rich::

[swilphil]

Much of what has caused this is people failing to take responsibility for their own selves. How long has the city of N.O. know that the levees would not hold past a CAT 3 hurricane? No help from the FEDs? DO IT YOURSELF! It's your city. Take responibility for it.

The levees along the Mississippi River come under the jurisdiction of the US Army Corps of Engineers. In case you don't know, that's part of the federal government. You can blame a lot of people, but please don't blame the victims.

[jrydberg]

Hate away...hmm....This wasn't about hating Bush, I never really liked the man before, but I didn't hate him. I disagree with some things he has done, but it's never driven me to freak out over him and call for his impeachment!!

But guess what, I'm looking at him now, watching him on tv, back-tracking on what he says (I'm disappointed with the way things were handled is now I'm not disappointed with how it was handled, just the results :rolleyes: ) I'm not happy that he's the man in charge. I don't know who could have handled it better, but sorry, he's a huge disappointment to me.

And your tag-line is ironic today!

Ironic? Please show me where I called anyone names or insulted anyone. Or show me where I called you a Bush-hater.

It is my opinion that if one honestly thinks President Bush and his administration sat there doing nothing for days, that one is blinded by hatred -- thus my comment in that regard. I don't think that's a difficult position to support.

What peachgirl describes, for instance, I find to be a much more reasonable assessment. I don't necessarily agree with it (though I think there is some truth to it), but I don't think it's unfounded.

[BuckNaked]

I absolutely agree that this entire debacle should be disected to see what went wrong, and how we need to fix it. It doesn't matter to me who was at fault - find out, and take the appropriate measures to try to prevent it from happening again (the response, not the hurricane itself). Start with Brown, the head of FEMA. As far as I'm concerned, he should be sacked NOW, and his next in command put in place. I imagine that the next person in line could do any worse than he's done, but that's just MO.

But in the process of looking at what went wrong, we need to ensure that everyone understands what the actual processes were. If they're broken, then fix them. But unless you understand what they are, it seems kind of silly to criticize them.

For example, so many people have no idea what FEMA's role is in disaster relief. They aren't there to provide command and control when it comes to determining what is needed in the early days, they are there to provide command and control to ensure that ALL requests of the local disaster relief officials are met in a timely and efficient manner. As someone mentioned, the states are sovereign in these issues, not the federal government. The state and local officials (in theory) are the ones in the best position to determine what aid is needed, where it's needed and what the priorities are. They are on the ground in the affected areas, and they will know much better what is needed and where than a federal official 50 or 100 miles away.

My own view is that after this debacle, that system should be overhauled. I would like to see the law change such that once a President declares a federal disaster, the entire process be federalized.

And that, to me, was where President Bush failed miserably in this case. He has the power to federalize the relief effort, and he should have done so on Wednesday, when it became obvious that the local and state officials were lost as to what was needed and where.

As for people politicizing it, of course it was going to happen, but for the most part, on the DIS at least, it has been the same people doing the same thing. It wouldn't have mattered one bit what the President had done, he would have been criticized for it.

[jrydberg]

I very respectfully disagree, but with pause to thought. From your posts it is very safe to say that you are a rational, sensible person and if this is how it appears to you, there's almost certainly something that needs fixing, if only the presentation of the statements.

Certainly there is a lot of emotion about and certainly there are cases where said pain from this disaster is being directed at the politicians which is a pity. We need to be as objective as humans can be to safely criticise the executive with a goal to improvement and passion does not mix happily with objectivity.



Rich::

Fair point, Rich. I guess I'm just looking at things from a different perspective. I certainly don't mean to imply that one ought not criticize the government -- that should be fair game for ANY circumstances.

[babar]

Ironic? Please show me where I called anyone names or insulted anyone. Or show me where I called you a Bush-hater.

It is my opinion that if one honestly thinks President Bush and his administration sat there doing nothing for days, that one is blinded by hatred -- thus my comment in that regard. I don't think that's a difficult position to support.

What peachgirl describes, for instance, I find to be a much more reasonable assessment. I don't necessarily agree with it (though I think there is some truth to it), but I don't think it's unfounded.

I don't know, thought saying you were disgusted by my posts was a jab. maybe I was wrong.

I'm not even going to bother starting or answering these kinds of posts anymore. Not because I'm angry, but because of the posters who can "bleeping" type out an essay that could published in the papers of the world in ten minutes, while I have trouble getting my thoughts to come out correctly from my mouth, let alone when I'm typing fast.

It's just not a fair fight. It makes me feel dumb (which, believe it or not, I'm not) and I don't like that feeling. :rotfl:

[auntpolly]

You *really* think we sat around twiddling our thumbs for a few days? Honestly? Do you think people in FEMA,.

Yes, that's exactly what FEMA and the federal government did. I'm not talking about the Red Cross and volunteer agencies.

[BuckNaked]

Yes, that's exactly what FEMA and the federal government did. I'm not talking about the Red Cross and volunteer agencies.

And you know this because....?

I guess that convoy that was sent into NOLA yesterday was put together in 10 or 15 minutes yesterday?

[jrydberg]

Yes, that's exactly what FEMA and the federal government did. I'm not talking about the Red Cross and volunteer agencies.

As I said, no point discussing it further if that's what you think.

[jrydberg]

babar, I apologize. In my quick typing, not sure I got my points across well and perhaps directed them at you when I shouldn't have.

My response was more directed at some of the responses I've seen on other threads. I don't mean to suggest that one shouldn't analyze the government's response, nor that the government should be insulated from responsibility for their actions. But I think some have really made it all about politics and not about the situation.

[swilphil]

I absolutely agree that this entire debacle should be disected to see what went wrong, and how we need to fix it. It doesn't matter to me who was at fault - find out, and take the appropriate measures to try to prevent it from happening again (the response, not the hurricane itself). Start with Brown, the head of FEMA. As far as I'm concerned, he should be sacked NOW, and his next in command put in place. I imagine that the next person in line could do any worse than he's done, but that's just MO.

But in the process of looking at what went wrong, we need to ensure that everyone understands what the actual processes were. If they're broken, then fix them. But unless you understand what they are, it seems kind of silly to criticize them.

For example, so many people have no idea what FEMA's role is in disaster relief. They aren't there to provide command and control when it comes to determining what is needed in the early days, they are there to provide command and control to ensure that ALL requests of the local disaster relief officials are met in a timely and efficient manner. As someone mentioned, the states are sovereign in these issues, not the federal government. The state and local officials (in theory) are the ones in the best position to determine what aid is needed, where it's needed and what the priorities are. They are on the ground in the affected areas, and they will know much better what is needed and where than a federal official 50 or 100 miles away.

My own view is that after this debacle, that system should be overhauled. I would like to see the law change such that once a President declares a federal disaster, the entire process be federalized.

And that, to me, was where President Bush failed miserably in this case. He has the power to federalize the relief effort, and he should have done so on Wednesday, when it became obvious that the local and state officials were lost as to what was needed and where.

I agree with all of this!

[auntpolly]

And you know this because....?

I guess that convoy that was sent into NOLA yesterday was put together in 10 or 15 minutes yesterday?

So when did they start?

BTW, your other post was right on the mark!I agree! But answer this question, anyway.

[auntpolly]

As I said, no point discussing it further if that's what you think.

That's OK, if you don't have a defense for Bush coming back to work on Tuesday or for the clueless director of FEMA, then I can't see as I blame you.

[Free4Life11]

Well doesn't anyone find it stange that in the convoy were fire trucks who traveled 1900 MILES from Los Angeles? I'm pretty sure FEMA has no control of LA FIRE TRUCKS! Yet somehow they arrived at the same time the convoy did....

[BuckNaked]

I agree with all of this!
:eek: ;)

And from the "damned in you do, damned if you don't" department...

I was just watching Carol Mosely Braun on CNN (phone in interview), and she started off complaining about the slow federal response. OK, ITA with her there.

But then she started complaining that now that the feds are there, they're taking away control from local and state officials. Well, which way do you want it? Do you want the feds handling it in the best way they can, now that they're there? Or do you want the mayor and the governor controlling it?

[BuckNaked]

So when did they start?



I don't know for sure, but it had to be at least a couple of days. You don't put together an 8 mile convoy in a few minutes.

Well doesn't anyone find it stange that in the convoy were fire trucks who traveled 1900 MILES from Los Angeles? I'm pretty sure FEMA has no control of LA FIRE TRUCKS! Yet somehow they arrived at the same time the convoy did....

And I'm pretty sure that FEMA requested that they come or unless LA contacted FEMA and asked if they were needed. Emergency officials from LA would know not to send people there unless it was coordinated through FEMA.

[Tanuki]

If you don't think this is political maybe you should take a look at this - which the White House hasn't even had the sensitivity to take down from their website. Also take a look at the other pictures they have up.

On the Day Katrina Hit (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/images/20050829-5_p082905pm-0125-515h.html)

These pictures were taken just hours after a major Hurricane has just come to land near a major metropolitan area and for all we know wiped out the homes of millions of people who lost all they had. While people were trapped in their attics and on rooftops. While people were dying.

And don't give me that there was nothing he could do about it anyway.
That he had delegated the planning to others. That it really wasn't his job. Those are pictures of a man laughing and joking at a fundraiser while this tragedy was unfolding right here in America.

And that man is the President of the United States.

[BuckNaked]

That he had delegated the planning to others. That it really wasn't his job.

Newflash: It isn't the President's job to plan for disaster relief. Where he failed was in not federalizing the relief efforts.

[Free4Life11]

Even if L.A. asked FEMA if the could help, then I still don't see why they arrive at the exact same time.

Was FEMA stopping the news media from getting THEIR trucks in???

[auntpolly]

I don't know for sure, but it had to be at least a couple of days. You don't put together an 8 mile convoy in a few minutes.





Sorry to keep bringing up DH, but the weekend before the storm, he, who works for an insurance company was at his desk all day, as were the people he worked with. They were evacuating their employees, setting up call centers out of state and they were as ready as they could possibily be when it hit.

I just don't understand why Bush and the director of FEMA weren't doing the same thing that weekend, when it was obvious, to DH's insurance company, the disaster that was about to happen. At that point to them, whose fault the city wasn't ready was immaterial, they were jus busy doing what needed to be done. They all cancelled their trips on Saturday. I felt like we were getting prepared for Armagedon, such a feeling of doom hung over our house because how worried DH was.

I don't get the feeling it was that way around the president's vacation.

[swilphil]

If ever there's been a time when politicians need to work across party lines, this is it. We did it pretty well after 9/11. Why can't we do it now?

[BuckNaked]

BUT WHY FROM LOS ANGELES??? Hello?!?! Why not from one of HUNDREDS OF CITIES that are closer....and even if L.A. asked FEMA if the could help, then I still don't see why they arrive at the exact same time.

I'm not sure why you're shouting, but I have no idea why from LA. Perhaps they had the people and equipment available that closer cities didn't have or perhaps those firefighters have a catastrophe skill set that closer departments didn't possess.

As for them arriving at the exact same time, it's because the entire convoy was set to come in together. FEMA was in the area before the storm even hit, they didn't just get into town yesterday. Not in large enough numbers, obviously, but FEMA was there from the beginning.

[Free4Life11]

Sorry for shouting I tried to edit it, but this board is running slow for me.

I don't know why they waited to assemble the convoy while people were dying and everyone in America knew it just from turning on the TV.

[BuckNaked]

If ever there's been a time when politicians need to work across party lines, this is it. We did it pretty well after 9/11. Why can't we do it now?

Because there is a small, but determined group of people in this country that prefer to level outlandish accusations and place blame based on who the President is rather than what the real problems are.

I do blame President Bush for not federalizing the response earlier in the week, and I think we need to look at changing the laws regarding disaster relief. But the claims that he didn't do anything because the people were poor, or black, or because NOLA didn't vote for him, or any of the other ridiculous things I've don't exactly make the "other side" amenable to working together on fixing the process so this doesn't happen again.

[minnie61650]

I'm not a Bush fan, but I don't think he's solely to blame. I do think this is definitely a situation that needs to be looked at politically. The government, on many levels, dropped the ball here--state, local, and federal. I know all of those groups did some things right, but, frankly, too many people have died because of bad decisions on many levels. And it's the politicians who lead our government.

Leave politics out of medical decisions, whether it's reproductive rights or the right to die, but this is definitely a decision where politics comes into play.

ITA
The plans they had in place did not work.
And many people paid with their lives.
Linda ::MinnieMo

[JudicialTyranny]

Before the hurricane, a mandatory evacuation order was given. People stayed anyway. Some of them are saying they had no means to leave. Look at the picture below. Why didn't the mayor use these buses to get people out?

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg

If I'm going to blame anyone, it's going to start at the local level, with the mayor and disaster planners for that city. They failed before the hurricane and they failed after the hurricane. Period.

[auntpolly]

But the claims that he didn't do anything because the people were poor, or black, or because NOLA didn't vote for him, or any of the other ridiculous things I've don't exactly make the "other side" amenable to working together on fixing the process so this doesn't happen again.

Honestly, I don't want to think that way, either. But I really can't even picture it taking all that time to rescue a bunch of rich white people from the roofs of million dollar homes.

There's a really funny joke that Eddie Griffin has about the lengths we white people go to rescue each other - not appropriate for here, but check out his movie "Disfunksional Family". It's really funny.

[BuckNaked]

Honestly, I don't want to think that way, either. But I really can't even picture it taking all that time to rescue a bunch of rich white people from the roofs of million dollar homes.


The fact is that rich people of any color wouldn't have been on the roofs, they would have gotten out. And that, to me, is the first thing that needs to be addressed by the state and local officials in LA. Based on all accounts I've read, no plans were in place to either try to evacuate those that were too poor to get out or to ensure their safety and their needs once they knew they would have to stay.

[Teejay32]

I think the argument that Bush should have federalized the process then is a good one, but I don't automatically favor changing the system because New Orleans didn't fare too well. Need more detail. FEMA was active and was being attacked by people they were trying to get help to. National Guardsmen were active and being "sworn in" (for whatever reason) by Tuesday. NGs were being shifted from search & rescue to police work and the police were being shifted to search & rescue, in ways that haven't even been explored yet but I'd like to know more about, because I think it'll make a big difference in the final review.

But by Tuesday it was conventional wisdom that God was punishing New Orleans -or- Bush was, and had to be impeached asap. You answer both the same way, "sure. mmm-hmm." and just move along...

[Island_Lauri]

If I'm going to blame anyone, it's going to start at the local level, with the mayor and disaster planners for that city. They failed before the hurricane and they failed after the hurricane. Period.

It is all the mayor's fault... What bull!

"CHRONOLOGY....Here's a timeline that outlines the fate of both FEMA and flood control projects in New Orleans under the Bush administration. Read it and weep:


January 2001: Bush appoints Joe Allbaugh, a crony from Texas, as head of FEMA. Allbaugh has no previous experience in disaster management.


April 2001: Budget Director Mitch Daniels announces the Bush administration's goal of privatizing much of FEMA's work. In May, Allbaugh confirms that FEMA will be downsized: "Many are concerned that federal disaster assistance may have evolved into both an oversized entitlement program...." he said. "Expectations of when the federal government should be involved and the degree of involvement may have ballooned beyond what is an appropriate level."


2001: FEMA designates a major hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country."


December 2002: After less than two years at FEMA, Allbaugh announces he is leaving to start up a consulting firm that advises companies seeking to do business in Iraq. He is succeeded by his deputy, Michael Brown, who, like Allbaugh, has no previous experience in disaster management.


March 2003: FEMA is downgraded from a cabinet level position and folded into the Department of Homeland Security. Its mission is refocused on fighting acts of terrorism.


2003: Under its new organization chart within DHS, FEMA's preparation and planning functions are reassigned to a new Office of Preparedness and Response. FEMA will henceforth focus only on response and recovery.


Summer 2004: FEMA denies Louisiana's pre-disaster mitigation funding requests. Says Jefferson Parish flood zone manager Tom Rodrigue: "You would think we would get maximum consideration....This is what the grant program called for. We were more than qualified for it."


June 2004: The Army Corps of Engineers budget for levee construction in New Orleans is slashed. Jefferson Parish emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri comments: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay."


June 2005: Funding for the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is cut by a record $71.2 million. One of the hardest-hit areas is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany parishes.


August 2005: While New Orleans is undergoing a slow motion catastrophe, Bush mugs for the cameras, cuts a cake for John McCain, plays the guitar for Mark Wills, delivers an address about V-J day, and continues with his vacation. When he finally gets around to acknowledging the scope of the unfolding disaster, he delivers only a photo op on Air Force One and a flat, defensive, laundry list speech in the Rose Garden.


So: A crony with no relevant experience was installed as head of FEMA. Mitigation budgets for New Orleans were slashed even though it was known to be one of the top three risks in the country. FEMA was deliberately downsized as part of the Bush administration's conservative agenda to reduce the role of government. After DHS was created, FEMA's preparation and planning functions were taken away.

Actions have consequences. No one could predict that a hurricane the size of Katrina would hit this year, but the slow federal response when it did happen was no accident. It was the result of four years of deliberate Republican policy and budget choices that favor ideology and partisan loyalty at the expense of operational competence. It's the Bush administration in a nutshell."


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007023.php

[lyeag]

Sorry to keep bringing up DH, but the weekend before the storm, he, who works for an insurance company was at his desk all day, as were the people he worked with. They were evacuating their employees, setting up call centers out of state and they were as ready as they could possibily be when it hit.

I just don't understand why Bush and the director of FEMA weren't doing the same thing that weekend, when it was obvious, to DH's insurance company, the disaster that was about to happen. At that point to them, whose fault the city wasn't ready was immaterial, they were jus busy doing what needed to be done. They all cancelled their trips on Saturday. I felt like we were getting prepared for Armagedon, such a feeling of doom hung over our house because how worried DH was.

I don't get the feeling it was that way around the president's vacation.
For that matter, why wasn't the mayor and the gov? I mean, they were in the positions closest to the problem. From what you are saying, businesses in the area were taking care of their people from the get go like your dh's insurance company. Why didn't the local gov? Answer- because generally, as anyone who works near or in the gov't, the gov't moves much slower than the private sector. State, local and federal made their mistakes in this mess. Pinning it on one person isn't realistic.

[auntpolly]

I think the argument that Bush should have federalized the process then is a good one, but I don't automatically favor changing the system because New Orleans didn't fare too well. Need more detail. FEMA was active and was being attacked by people they were trying to get help to. National Guardsmen were active and being "sworn in" (for whatever reason) by Tuesday. NGs were being shifted from search & rescue to police work and the police were being shifted to search & rescue, in ways that haven't even been explored yet but I'd like to know more about, because I think it'll make a big difference in the final review.

But by Tuesday it was conventional wisdom that God was punishing New Orleans -or- Bush was, and had to be impeached asap. You answer both the same way, "sure. mmm-hmm." and just move along...

I guess I'll keep answering until someone answers. Why weren't they getting this stuff ready to move over the weekend? Why did they wait until it hit? Businesses were doing everything necessary that early.

[auntpolly]

For that matter, why wasn't the mayor and the gov? I mean, they were in the positions closest to the problem. From what you are saying, businesses in the area were taking care of their people from the get go like your dh's insurance company. Why didn't the local gov? Answer- because generally, as anyone who works near or in the gov't, the gov't moves much slower than the private sector. State, local and federal made their mistakes in this mess. Pinning it on one person isn't realistic.

I'm not trying to pin it on one person, but you know what they say about the buck and where it stops. If I had seen him doing stuff over the weekend to prepare, I wouldn't be upset at him right now.

[lyeag]

I guess I'll keep answering until someone answers. Why weren't they getting this stuff ready to move over the weekend? Why did they wait until it hit? Businesses were doing everything necessary that early.

Because Gov't at every level is a mess. Gotta check here, gotta check there, gotta see what impact it will have on the budgets. And I do mean this occurs at local, state and federal. Too many ideas, not enough action is generally a good reason as well. Considering all the options and the ramifications of each option. Nobody likes it, but that is the truth. Business is different.

Think about it, the private charities and businesses move much faster because they are smaller and only answer to themselves.

[BuckNaked]

I'm not trying to pin it on one person, but you know what they say about the buck and where it stops. If I had seen him doing stuff over the weekend to prepare, I wouldn't be upset at him right now.

You're not trying to pin it one person, yet you're calling for the President to be impeached...

Because you didn't personally see him doing something, that means he wasn't doing it?

[Island_Lauri]

You're not trying to pin it one person, yet you're calling for the President to be impeached...

Because you didn't personally see him doing something, that means he wasn't doing it?


By the way, where is Dick Cheney?

[brittsmum1998]

I confess I only read thru the 1st two posts, but if we are in fact putting a political "spin" one something like a natural distaster, lets keep in mind, this is a democratic state w/ both a dem governor AND mayor I believe. I hope the blame is at least starting w/ them and while I have alot more I would like to say I'm sure its been repeated in here enough. And as a Bush voter, I didn't start blaming ANYONE (except Mother Nature) UNTIL people started pointing the finger at the White House.

[BuckNaked]

By the way, where is Dick Cheney?

I don't know, it's not my day to watch him. :rotfl2:

[lyeag]

Look, in most cases, the federal gov't comes in to SUPPORT the efforts occurring by private, local and state entities. In the case of NO, there wasn't much to support. The coast guard and the few police were heroic, no doubt, but it was nowhere near the early efforts that are normally inplace by local powers after emergencies. The federal forces had to come in and take over.

[Free4Life11]

Because you didn't personally see him doing something, that means he wasn't doing it?

No, because we saw him eating birthday cake, playing the guitar, and talking to old people about Medicare.

[auntpolly]

You're not trying to pin it one person, yet you're calling for the President to be impeached...

Because you didn't personally see him doing something, that means he wasn't doing it?

Sigh, OK, what was he doing? I haven't read anything, or seen anything on the news, or talked to anyone who's told me anything to the contrary. If you have information that will change my mind, I'll happily apologize.

ANd when I said impeach, I hope you know I'm smart enough to know that I realize we can't impeach him for this, that I was blowing off steam, and using the word "impeach", when I really wanted to use the F bomb.

[Florida_Mom]

Here's what the FEDERAL government says their responsibility is:

"In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS."


That's from the Department of Homeland Security Website. http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

[dcentity2000]

What I'd like to see is an apology from the President for things not going as smoothly as they should have. It costs nothing and could soothe the nation as a whole.

He has nothing to lose and manners maketh man.

[EDIT] An apology to all Americans and victims, not to me (obviously)



Rich::

[MrsNick]

While I am not responsible for human lives in my job, part of my job function is to be prepared for "worst case scenarios," when they are possible. 7 times out of 10, the preparations I've made for disasters were not necessary. But 3 times out of 10 they were, and of those 3, 1 time is a nightmare. But you don't prepare for disasters AFTER they happen. You prepare for them before they happen. That's why it's called preparation, and not clean-up.

And, by the way, our President has a history of being unprepared, even when information pointing to disasters is available. Remember this report? "Al Qaeda Determined to Strike within the U.S." This was a report given to the President a month before 9/11 - while he was on vacation. He ignored it, and a month later, New York and Washington, D.C. were under attack.

Our President does have a pattern of waiting for disasters to happen, and then figuring out what to do after the fact, rather than acknowledging that disasters are possible and preparing for them so that you can minimize the aftermath.

Personally, if I were involved with New Orleans, I would have used the Superdome not as a shelter, but as a transfer station BEFORE the hurricane hit. Why people were told to hunker down there instead of told to go there so that they could be evacuated by bus or chopper I will never understand.

What I have learned is to be grateful that I would not have been one of the unlucky people who ended up in the Superdome, because I would have gotten out of New Orleans, no matter what it cost me. Fortunately, while I am not rich, I would have found the means to get out. Most of the people who got stuck did not have any financial means. A few were tourists who were caught off guard, but had they had any idea what they were in for, would have had the financial means to get out.

And the other thing in my mind that is more reinforced than ever, is to never, ever rely on the government for anything if there is any alternative choice at all.

I believe the government sector is totally inferior to private sector for two reasons: talent goes where the money is, and people in government have no incentive to do better than mediocre (that is, they're "lifers.")

So is this disaster ALL President Bush's fault? Well, it isn't his fault that the hurricane struck. But, he and all of the other public officials (including state and local) who sat on their hands until the hurricane passed through ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[BuckNaked]

Here's what the FEDERAL government says their responsibility is:

"In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS."


That's from the Department of Homeland Security Website. http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

Yep, they have primary responsibility for preparing for the response and for carrying out the response. But they don't have the responsibility for determining what the local areas need. Even now, the response has not been federalized, unfortunately. Why? Because the governor still has the primary responsibility for letting FEMA know what they need and where they need it.

[reeeoga]

I guess I'll keep answering until someone answers. Why weren't they getting this stuff ready to move over the weekend? Why did they wait until it hit? Businesses were doing everything necessary that early.


FEMA started their work Friday. That is why the LA. firetructs got here at the same time as the rest of the convoy. The LA. firetrucks have specialized rescue/recovery units. This according to the California Disaster Relief Coordinator.

New Orleans has 1 functioning road into and out of the city now. The disaster response plan used Cell Phones as its primary form of communication. Those went out with the flood.

Mayor Nagin had the Orleans Parish School busses to use to evac people. They are still in their yard.

Gov. Blanco had 7,000 National Guard members to call on. She did not. They sat and did nothing.

wensday morning 250 private boats (from the Lafayette area) arrived at New Orleans at 8:00 AM to help with rescue/recovery. The local government of Orleans sent them home becouse they could not coordinate the boaters. Many of these boaters where off-duty police, ex military or wildlife managment specialist. These people know how to get people safely out of water.

FEMA and other Feds. had the rest of the country to call on. They did it too slow.

The levee that broke was not a Hurrican Flood levee, it was a canal containment levee. The Hurrican Levees held.

This is what is known as a FUBAR. The plans did not work. The people in charge at all levels have not talked to each other (some of it becouse of politics). New Orleans is in chaos while Mississippi and Alabama are recovering. This has to be investigated as to why.

[Bob NC]

Ok local, state and gov't officials, a hurricane is about to hit the gulf coast somewhere. We're not sure where, not even sure which state, but you better have personnel and supplies on hand wherever it happens to go. So ok, FEMA, you have prepositioned people and a massive amount of supplies. The hurricane has hit a 90,000 square mile area covering Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana. Get the heck in there FEMA and local officials, help restore power, check for damage and help with injuries. Oh wait, hold on a second, a levee has broken in numerous spots and the city of New Orleans has been flooded. Ok, FEMA and local and state folks, get in there and evacuate everyone that didn't leave when they were told to. Wait a minute though, while you are evacuating 100,000 people, could ya please take the time to rescue about 20,000 of them from IMMINENT danger of drowning? Don't prioritize either, you MUST do both at the same time. By the way, while you are rescuing 20,000 and evacuating 100,000 at the same time, please make sure every single one of those people spread over hundreds of square miles all have food and water, immediately, k? Oh, and a lot of folks are upset about this whole looting situation, could you take care of that too? And while you're at it, would ya mind trying to plug the leaks in the levee? Wait though, cuz many of those folks you are evacuating need health care. Would ya mind also setting up some hospitals among the flood waters? Oh, and don't give another thought to all the rest of the american folks and politicians sitting on their butts criticizing every move you make. Hey, at least they aren't shooting at you. By the way, the hoodlums that have stolen thousands of guns from pawn shops and Wal-Marts ARE shooting at you while you're trying to do everything we ask of you.

[BuckNaked]

Well said, reeeoga.

[auntpolly]

FEMA started their work Friday. That is why the LA. firetructs got here at the same time as the rest of the convoy. The LA. firetrucks have specialized rescue/recovery units. This according to the California Disaster Relief Coordinator.

New Orleans has 1 functioning road into and out of the city now. The disaster response plan used Cell Phones as its primary form of communication. Those went out with the flood.

Mayor Nagin had the Orleans Parish School busses to use to evac people. They are still in their yard.

Gov. Blanco had 7,000 National Guard members to call on. She did not. They sat and did nothing.

wensday morning 250 private boats (from the Lafayette area) arrived at New Orleans at 8:00 AM to help with rescue/recovery. The local government of Orleans sent them home becouse they could not coordinate the boaters. Many of these boaters where off-duty police, ex military or wildlife managment specialist. These people know how to get people safely out of water.

FEMA and other Feds. had the rest of the country to call on. They did it too slow.

The levee that broke was not a Hurrican Flood levee, it was a canal containment levee. The Hurrican Levees held.

This is what is known as a FUBAR. The plans did not work. The people in charge at all levels have not talked to each other (some of it becouse of politics). New Orleans is in chaos while Mississippi and Alabama are recovering. This has to be investigated as to why.

This is very interesting! Thanks!

[BuckNaked]

Bob NC - ::yes::

[lyeag]

Bob NC I think you nailed it.

[auntpolly]

The city of NO knew ahead of time that 1/3 could not or would not be evacuating.

They knew those levees would not stand anything over cat 3.

They knew this was a disaster waiting to happen.

Everybody knew what a category 4 storm would do to that city.

But we have Bush saying, ""I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." ???????? And this is OK with you all????

There's blame all over the place and it's a big mess, but face it, our fearless leader wasn't exactly on his game for this one.

[lyeag]

The city of NO knew ahead of time that 1/3 could not or would not be evacuating.

They knew those levees would not stand anything over cat 3.

They knew this was a disaster waiting to happen.

Everybody knew what a category 4 storm would do to that city.

But we have Bush saying, ""I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." ???????? And this is OK with you all????

There's blame all over the place and it's a big mess, but face it, our fearless leader wasn't exactly on his game for this one.

I justed posted about that comment on another thread. Either CNN, MSNBC, or FOX had a Corp official on saying they thought water would come over the top, not that the levees would break. Big difference I would think. Yes, there is water in both situations, but initially the city didn't flood. That is why they really thought they had been spared in the first few hours after the storm.

[auntpolly]

I justed posted about that comment on another thread. Either CNN, MSNBC, or FOX had a Corp official on saying they thought water would come over the top, not that the levees would break. Big difference I would think. Yes, there is water in both situations, but initially the city didn't flood. That is why they really thought they had been spared in the first few hours after the storm.

Sorry, I should have given you credit! I cut and pasted from your post!!! Thanks! and sorry!!

Like I keep saying, my DH's insurance company sure knew what very likely would happen!! I guess they know more than the president!

[LastTycoon]

This is all so ridiculous. No one is saying the government at any level caused a natural disaster. People are criticizing the response to the natural disaster. If you are walking around saying, "This is not the time to..." you are kidding yourself. Not the time to what? Ask questions that need to be asked? Demand accountability and reforms to the system? What if San Francisco is hit with a major earthquake on Monday? What if we have to deal with another major terror attack three weeks from now? Do you think Mother Nature or terrorist groups will wait around for us to get our sh*t together? Not only is it the time to "politicize" and demand answers... we have an obligation to do so for the sake of this nation. And yes, we need to do it now.

[Free4Life11]

This is all so ridiculous. No one is saying the government at any level caused a natural disaster. People are criticizing the response to the natural disaster. If you are walking around saying, "This is not the time to..." you are kidding yourself. Not the time to what? Ask questions that need to be asked? Demand accountability and reforms to the system? What if San Francisco is hit with a major earthquake on Monday? What if we have to deal with another major terror attack three weeks from now? Do you think Mother Nature or terrorist groups will wait around for us to get our sh*t together? Not only is it the time to "politicize" and demand answers... we have an obligation to do so for the sake of this nation. And yes, we need to do it now.

Agreed!

[BuckNaked]

This is all so ridiculous. No one is saying the government at any level caused a natural disaster. People are criticizing the response to the natural disaster. If you are walking around saying, "This is not the time to..." you are kidding yourself. Not the time to what? Ask questions that need to be asked? Demand accountability and reforms to the system? What if San Francisco is hit with a major earthquake on Monday? What if we have to deal with another major terror attack three weeks from now? Do you think Mother Nature or terrorist groups will wait around for us to get our sh*t together? Not only is it the time to "politicize" and demand answers... we have an obligation to do so for the sake of this nation. And yes, we need to do it now.

Great idea - let's start changing all of the processes right smack in the middle of trying to get relief to the people that need it. Let's start calling the people that overseeing the efforts into Congress to testify about what went wrong.

Fixing what we can without impacting current relief efforts - good.

Politicizing the issue while we're trying to get the relief to where it needs to be - bad.

[auntpolly]

Great idea - let's start changing all of the processes right smack in the middle of trying to get relief to the people that need it.

OK, since I have a lot to do right now, I'll stop complaining about Bush now. Somebody remind me to start again as soon as the situation is stablized; OK? I doubt if I'll forget, but it couldn't hurt.

[lyeag]

Sorry, I should have given you credit! I cut and pasted from your post!!! Thanks! and sorry!!

Like I keep saying, my DH's insurance company sure knew what very likely would happen!! I guess they know more than the president!

I hope it didn't sound like I was upset with. I just figured we had both just looked at the same thread. :flower: I just believe with all my heart the gov't is NEVER at any time as good as the private sector.

[dcentity2000]

Great idea - let's start changing all of the processes right smack in the middle of trying to get relief to the people that need it. Let's start calling the people that overseeing the efforts into Congress to testify about what went wrong.

Fixing what we can without impacting current relief efforts - good.

Politicizing the issue while we're trying to get the relief to where it needs to be - bad.

My GOD, I had no idea that talking about the political implications on the DIS actually stopped the guys on the ground from saving lives! :scared1:



Rich::

[What the Heck]

My GOD, I had no idea that talking about the political implications on the DIS actually stopped the guys on the ground from saving lives! :scared1:



Rich::Talking about it here doesn't - but if we were to make some of the changes people are saying the President should have done actually would.

[BuckNaked]

My GOD, I had no idea that talking about the political implications on the DIS actually stopped the guys on the ground from saving lives! :scared1:



Rich::

Discussing the political implications doesn't stop the efforts. But trying to make wholesale changes in the midst of the current relief effort, as was suggested by LastTycoon would be a nightmare.

[Mugg Mann]

OK, 78 posts later, and I still haven't seen one Bush defender attempt to answer the following question...

Why did the President decide that playing guitar for a photo op and celebrating a birthday party (with cake) takes precedence over the events that were unfolding in the path of Katrina?!?

Will at least one of you admit that Bush's judgement in the image he decided to project that day was a mistake?

[What the Heck]

OK, 78 posts later, and I still haven't seen one Bush defender attempt to answer the following question...

Why did the President decide that playing guitar for a photo op and celebrating a birthday party (with cake) takes precedence over the events that were unfolding in the path of Katrina?!?

Will at least one of you admit that Bush's judgement in the image he decided to project that day was a mistake?Yes, I can admit that. The man is a lousy politician. I still don't see why the Democrats couldn't have come up with a reasonable alternative in 2004 so that we could have someone better. You are absolutely right that playing the guitar for a photo op was wrong, and he should have canceled his part of the VJ day activities. Unfortunately, he didn't. That doesn't make him responsible for things he did not and should not have had authority to do.

[BuckNaked]

Why did the President decide that playing guitar for a photo op and celebrating a birthday party (with cake) takes precedence over the events that were unfolding in the path of Katrina?!?

To me, that's a silly question, because it assumes that because he was doing those things, he wasn't or hadn't already done everything that was his responsibility to do as the storm approached and hit.

Will at least one of you admit that Bush's judgement in the image he decided to project that day was a mistake?

To people that care more about images than actions, I guess it was a mistake. But I'm not one of those people.

[halestrm]

You can go to the New Orleans website that shows how they expected to be able to evacuate people. http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=36 you will see that they include routes over the flooded lake. NO ONE thought it would be like this. I have heard people in Arizona with family there. The family had the means to get out but stayed because every year they are told, “this is the one, get out.” Everyone knows the city is below sea level, everyone knows the city is waiting to flood but they just didn't believe it.

Regarding Bush not doing something earlier, on the 29th he made Federal funds available and declared it a disaster area. The levees didn't break until Tuesday, the 30th. How much earlier should he have acted? Maybe he should have acted prior to Katrina hitting, but then he is wasting money and usurping the city and state rights.

Also, someone earlier posted the fact that they were appalled that the official white house website still had a photo of Bush with McCain celebrating. Let's talk what is really on the site. The whole front page is devoted to Katrina. The link posted is for a press release from 8/29. At that time, the damage seemed bad but nothing like what happened next. Maybe he should pull down the press release so that people can complain that he is hiding things from the public.

According to Wikipedia:

"Hurricane Katrina was a hurricane that caused extensive and severe damage over the southeastern United States, including Louisiana's largest city, New Orleans, on August 29, 2005. Federal disaster declarations blanketed 90,000 square miles (233,000 km²) of the United States, an area almost as large as the United Kingdom. Katrina may eventually be classified as the worst natural disaster to hit the United States to date. Disaster relief plans are in operation in the affected areas. Currently, five million people are without power in the Gulf Coast region, and it may be up to two months before all power is restored."

That is a lot of land and a lot to work. No one expected this. There were plans in place, but they didn't work. I too am responsible for planning and back-up planning. The key to success in these plans is flexibility and the ability to turn 360 degrees if necessary. New Orlean's problem was everywhere they turned there was water.

As an ex-lifeguard, they warn you the most danger you will ever be in is trying to rescue someone who is drowning because, though they don't mean to, they will take you down with them. Rescurers keep getting pulled off route because people were jumping into the water to be rescued first. I understand, I sympathize, but it make it that much more difficult.

[What the Heck]

This is all so ridiculous. No one is saying the government at any level caused a natural disaster. People are criticizing the response to the natural disaster. If you are walking around saying, "This is not the time to..." you are kidding yourself. Not the time to what? Ask questions that need to be asked? Demand accountability and reforms to the system? What if San Francisco is hit with a major earthquake on Monday? What if we have to deal with another major terror attack three weeks from now? Do you think Mother Nature or terrorist groups will wait around for us to get our sh*t together? Not only is it the time to "politicize" and demand answers... we have an obligation to do so for the sake of this nation. And yes, we need to do it now.The problem is, the people to give us the answers are just a little busy right now - or would you have them be pulled off their work in New Orleans and sent to DC to answer the questions of a few politicians?

As to San Francisco being hit with a major earthquake, you know they would probably do a lot better than New Orleans did because their local governments actually do work on their disaster recovery plan.

[lyeag]

OK, 78 posts later, and I still haven't seen one Bush defender attempt to answer the following question...

Why did the President decide that playing guitar for a photo op and celebrating a birthday party (with cake) takes precedence over the events that were unfolding in the path of Katrina?!?

Will at least one of you admit that Bush's judgement in the image he decided to project that day was a mistake?


Good Lord, I don't care what image he PROJECTED. I want to know if he was being briefed and brought up to date on FEMA's plans? What was the rest of his day like? Do you know? I don't. How late did he stay awake getting updates? How fast was information moving that day? The point is I don't know and neither do you.

[Mugg Mann]

Yes, I can admit that. The man is a lousy politician. I still don't see why the Democrats couldn't have come up with a reasonable alternative in 2004 so that we could have someone better. You are absolutely right that playing the guitar for a photo op was wrong, and he should have canceled his part of the VJ day activities. Unfortunately, he didn't. That doesn't make him responsible for things he did not and should not have had authority to do.

We certainly can debate your last sentence, but I just want to say that I respect what you said previously in that post, and my respect for you by saying so has increased. Thank you!

[Mugg Mann]

To people that care more about images than actions, I guess it was a mistake. But I'm not one of those people.[/QUOTE]


...and neither am I. But the President clearly is. As an example, why fly onto an aircraft carrier to hang a banner saying Mission Accomplished if you don't care about images? Symbolism has been a crucial part of everything Bush does. I'm just curious to see if his supporters are willing to admit that there may have been even the teeny-weeniest error in judgement this week on the part of the President....

[SnackyStacky]

Frankly, I'm disgusted by posts that seek to apportion blame regarding the hurricane. It was a monumental natural disaster. Americans seem to want to blame someone for everything. That's the reason we have a zillion lawyers and lawsuits.

The simple fact is, nature is to blame. The simple fact is, it was only a matter of time before New Orleans experienced this. The simple fact is, had this happened in 1950, none of you would be blaming anyone because you wouldn't even know a lot of the details.

Now, any event is subject to so much scrutiny that no politician (mayor of New Orleans, governor of Louisiana, Senators, Congressmen, the President) could possibly live up to public expectations. People are angry at the devastation and the suffering -- got it. But why is your anger directed at those trying to help? Because they're not helping right? Because they're not helping fast enough? Man, I'd hate to be in the position of trying to help some of the people on these boards.

As the general who led the convoy into town said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already." This from the general that the mayor praised for being someone who would get things done.

I've really tried to stay out of this, but I can't. I'm going to say a few things, and then I'm unsubscribing myself from this thread so I won't know who's posting to it.

1.) The fact that a the hurricane happened at all is absolutely nobody's fault. That's nature and there's nothing you can do about it.

2.) The hurricane struck...when? Monday? Why did Bush only decide on WEDNESDAY to cut his vacation short? Yeah - we all need vacation - but there are certain things that take precedence. This would be one of them.

3.) Bush has ADMITTED his administration screwed up. So whether or not you or I feel that blame belongs anywhere right now - Bush fessed up to it, and has TAKEN blame!

The levees were bound to break. But there is no reason that those poor people needed to wait until FRIDAY to get relief from a disaster that happened on a MONDAY.

I don't like Bush. I did not vote for him. However, I knew that his presidency wouldn't be the end of the world. But then again, I'm not sitting in a lake that has swallowed my city; a lake that contains germs and bacteria from corpses that filled an entire city's worth of graveyards as well as those who perished in the storm; a lake that is teeming with not only my own - but the feces and urine of an entire city, previously populated by a half a million people. Yeah - I'm not sitting in that lake waiting to be rescued.

[lyeag]

To people that care more about images than actions, I guess it was a mistake. But I'm not one of those people.


...and neither am I. But the President clearly is. As an example, why fly onto an aircraft carrier to hang a banner saying Mission Accomplished if you don't care about images? Symbolism has been a crucial part of everything Bush does. I'm just curious to see if his supporters are willing to admit that there may have been even the teeny-weeniest error in judgement this week on the part of the President....[/QUOTE]


Of course! I have repeatedly said there is more than enough blame to go around at ALL levels. My problem is when people focus their complaints on one man. Granted he is the top of the food chain, but how many levels of communication does information have to go through before it gets to him? Especially when the communication at the scene is not functioning, how clear can all of it be? Of course he made mistakes.

[Teejay32]

I'm just curious to see if his supporters are willing to admit that there may have been even the teeny-weeniest error in judgement this week on the part of the President....

why? has there been a shortage of questioning Bush errors of judgement this week? God forbid.

[reeeoga]

To people that care more about images than actions, I guess it was a mistake. But I'm not one of those people.


...and neither am I. But the President clearly is. As an example, why fly onto an aircraft carrier to hang a banner saying Mission Accomplished if you don't care about images? Symbolism has been a crucial part of everything Bush does. I'm just curious to see if his supporters are willing to admit that there may have been even the teeny-weeniest error in judgement this week on the part of the President....[/QUOTE]


I don't see the error in this ( his immagration policy, his energy policy, that stupid highway bill that EVERYONE in Washington did, errors). Part of the job of a leader is to stay calm and to appear to be in control. Part of that is to keep doing what you have been doing. Symbolism is a great tool to keep people calm. Winston C. during WW2 was always seen in a 3 piece suit with a cigar. This kept his people calm. Symbolism works. The Mission Accomplished flight told the Armed Forces that He knew they could and where doing their jobs.

Everything about this president is about Symbols. This does override what he is actually doing sometimes. That doesn't mean he is not doing his job.

[swilphil]

I've really tried to stay out of this, but I can't. I'm going to say a few things, and then I'm unsubscribing myself from this thread so I won't know who's posting to it.

1.) The fact that a the hurricane happened at all is absolutely nobody's fault. That's nature and there's nothing you can do about it.

2.) The hurricane struck...when? Monday? Why did Bush only decide on WEDNESDAY to cut his vacation short? Yeah - we all need vacation - but there are certain things that take precedence. This would be one of them.

3.) Bush has ADMITTED his administration screwed up. So whether or not you or I feel that blame belongs anywhere right now - Bush fessed up to it, and has TAKEN blame!

The levees were bound to break. But there is no reason that those poor people needed to wait until FRIDAY to get relief from a disaster that happened on a MONDAY.

I don't like Bush. I did not vote for him. However, I knew that his presidency wouldn't be the end of the world. But then again, I'm not sitting in a lake that has swallowed my city; a lake that contains germs and bacteria from corpses that filled an entire city's worth of graveyards as well as those who perished in the storm; a lake that is teeming with not only my own - but the feces and urine of an entire city, previously populated by a half a million people. Yeah - I'm not sitting in that lake waiting to be rescued.

All excellent points, SnackyStacky. I think that sums it how many of us feel. I hope you post again.

[What the Heck]

why? has there been a shortage of questioning Bush errors of judgement this week? God forbid. :rotfl2: :rotfl: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Bob NC]

1.) The fact that a the hurricane happened at all is absolutely nobody's fault. That's nature and there's nothing you can do about it.

Very true.


2.) The hurricane struck...when? Monday? Why did Bush only decide on WEDNESDAY to cut his vacation short? Yeah - we all need vacation - but there are certain things that take precedence. This would be one of them.


The hurricane isn't the biggest problem for New Orleans, (which is the particular area I think we're all talking about here, nevermind the other 89,000 square miles). The levee broke on Tuesday. Tuesday. I know how democrats feel about Republican presidents taking vacations, but do you really think he's ever really on vacation, no matter where he physically happens to be?


3.) Bush has ADMITTED his administration screwed up. So whether or not you or I feel that blame belongs anywhere right now - Bush fessed up to it, and has TAKEN blame!

I kinda relate this to a football coach taking the blame for a loss when some 2nd string punt returner fumbles the ball to lose the game. Sure Bush fessed up to this. I believe that it doesn't matter who was in charge of handling this emergency. This is such a massive disaster, (set of disasters, actually), that I don't think ANYONE could have done everything perfectly in the eyes of some of us sitting at home on our couches.


The levees were bound to break. But there is no reason that those poor people needed to wait until FRIDAY to get relief from a disaster that happened on a MONDAY.

This is the rhetoric that stirs things up unnecessarily. Did EVERYONE have to wait until friday for relief? Sure, some did, but your quote gives the impression that EVERYONE had to wait until Friday for relief, (once again, for a disaster that happened on Tuesday).


I don't like Bush. I did not vote for him. However, I knew that his presidency wouldn't be the end of the world. But then again, I'm not sitting in a lake that has swallowed my city; a lake that contains germs and bacteria from corpses that filled an entire city's worth of graveyards as well as those who perished in the storm; a lake that is teeming with not only my own - but the feces and urine of an entire city, previously populated by a half a million people. Yeah - I'm not sitting in that lake waiting to be rescued.

I can tell you don't like Bush. The tone of your post and twisting of facts shows that to everyone.

Oh, by the way....Every single FEMA person, every single Red Cross volunteer, every single National Gaurdsman, every single person involved in the rescue of the poor folks in New Orleans are ALSO in a lake that has swallowed New Orleans, a lake that contains germs and bacteria from corpses that filled an entire city's worth of graveyards as well as those who perished in the storm; a lake that is teeming with not only my own - but the feces and urine of an entire city, previously populated by a half a million people.

[C.Ann]

There's a big difference between "blame" and "accountability"..

The President is the man at the top.. He is the man in charge.. He is able to cut through red tape in the blink of an eye when it suits him.. He had a responsibility to act in a timely manner.. He did not.. He needs to be held accountable for that.. HE IS THE LEADER - so he should lead - not sit back on vacation and assume that someone else is taking care of a national disaster..

As for complaining, bashing, whatever you want to call it - it AMAZES me the number of people on this board who think that no one can accomplish more than one thing at a time.. To imply that people are doing nothing but complaining/bashing/whatever is presumptuous - to say the least.. I know that I'm quite capable of multi-tasking.. Am I the only one?

Had the people of this country sat back and remained silent, you would NOT have seen the progress that is currently being made.. It was only AFTER the President felt the full brunt of the outrage of people across the country that he finally made his little stroll around the devastated areas and proclaimed, "Where it's not working right, we're going to make it right.." How many days after the fact???

Now we're seeing a bit of progess.. Time to back off with the outrage and demands, right? WRONG.. As soon as the people go quiet - as soon as the pressure is off - we'll be right back to square one.. "Yeah - stuff is on its way.."

Wanna do whatever you can to help? Go for it.. Send money.. Collect clothing for those in need and ship it out.. Pray until you can't pray anymore.. But keep the pressure on! You CAN do more than one thing at a time..

And one last thing.. For those who feel the President has let this country down in the most deplorable way, when you're too exhausted from helping in other ways, push yourself just a tad further.. Pick up a pen and send YOUR President a letter expressing your disappointment in his leadership qualities.. Hold him accountable.. His salary is beng paid by YOU.. Be polite, not rude.. Be firm, not arrogant.. Simply let him know his handling of this matter was totally unacceptable..

[Lebjwb]

Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin.

My how they must be getting tired of making excuses and defending the man.

Wake up time.

Bush and the republicans are going to suffer mightily. Fair or not that's what is already happening. You can only expect the people to take so much garbage for just so long.

His response time to the disaster is his undoing. He came across as uncaring (wipe that smarmy grin off your face), clueless and aloof and that is going to bring down the wrath of an angry country. You can't back peddle on that.

There's blood in the water.

Next week should be interesting on the hill.

[Wish I lived in Fl]

My senator has stood on the House floor and said, "Do you want to give us the money that we are requesting now, or pay much more later?"

Supposedly the funds for the Army Corps of Engineers to maintain the levees were discontinued 2 years ago and the funds given to Homeland Security.
Obviously if the levees had held New Orleans wouldn't be in such dire staits.

The cost for the evacuation, temporary housing, rebuilding or relocating are going to be so enormous.

[Shutterbug]

Usually you are pretty insightful, but you are dropping the ball on this one. We had a president who Tuesday says oops I'd better get back to work, and a director of FEMA who says people are still in there? Why didn't they leave? Darned right I'm going to blame someone when there is such a catastrophy of nature and we sit around twiddling our thumbs for a few days before spring into action.



Yep and lets not forget a mayor that waited till the last minute to order to evacuate and lets not leave out the govenor as well!
Oops no wait they are democrats....nevermind :rolleyes:

[Charade]

Frankly, I'm disgusted by posts that seek to apportion blame regarding the hurricane. It was a monumental natural disaster. Americans seem to want to blame someone for everything. That's the reason we have a zillion lawyers and lawsuits.

The simple fact is, nature is to blame. The simple fact is, it was only a matter of time before New Orleans experienced this. The simple fact is, had this happened in 1950, none of you would be blaming anyone because you wouldn't even know a lot of the details.

Now, any event is subject to so much scrutiny that no politician (mayor of New Orleans, governor of Louisiana, Senators, Congressmen, the President) could possibly live up to public expectations. People are angry at the devastation and the suffering -- got it. But why is your anger directed at those trying to help? Because they're not helping right? Because they're not helping fast enough? Man, I'd hate to be in the position of trying to help some of the people on these boards.

As the general who led the convoy into town said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already." This from the general that the mayor praised for being someone who would get things done.

Yeah, what he said.

[Charade]

There's a big difference between "blame" and "accountability"..

..

Sorry, but I disagree. It's just semantics.

[Charade]

NEWSFLASH: "Bush walks on water"...

(tomorrows headlines): "Bush can't swim"...

I suppose some of the complainers would complain that the ambulance that was coming to try and rescue you had a flat on the way.

[auntpolly]

Sorry, but I disagree. It's just semantics.

No, afraid not. 2 different things. Blame implies fault. Accountablility is just accepting responsibility. These have to do with definitions, not semantics.

I know the flood is not Bush's fault (duh), but as president, he ultimately must accept responsibility for the slow response.

[C.Ann]

Sorry, but I disagree. It's just semantics.
--------------------------
I'm surprised that you don't know the difference between the two..

[BuckNaked]

Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin.

My how they must be getting tired of making excuses and defending the man.

Wake up time.

Bush and the republicans are going to suffer mightily. Fair or not that's what is already happening. You can only expect the people to take so much garbage for just so long.

His response time to the disaster is his undoing. He came across as uncaring (wipe that smarmy grin off your face), clueless and aloof and that is going to bring down the wrath of an angry country. You can't back peddle on that.

There's blood in the water.

Next week should be interesting on the hill.

*YAWN*

[DisneyGirl]

I can't believe I read through all these posts, and I just feel I have to comment (although, I doubt I'll add more, since I don't think the discussion has gotten much further than it was in the beginning anyways). I knew before the hurricane hit that the situation would turn political-- there's just too much of a political rift in this country-- I think, caused mainly by the fact that the two major parties choose far left and far right representatives to be at the forefront in stead of someone more moderate. That said:

1. We should not be politicizing this-- not now, not ever. The facts are, and I don't think anyone can dispute this, is that EVERYONE screwed up a little-- local government, state government, federal government. Everyone. There are republicans and democrats in all of those areas. They all screwed up.

2. So, there were problems. Well, they are being resolved now, and that's what's important NOW. There will be an investigation, and there will be plenty of opportunities to point fingers (since that is what both republicans and democrats like to do).

3. As a non-Bush lover, I have to comment-- this really applies to all of the times in the past 5 years when Bush has been bashed by anyone. Please keep in mind that Bush (and any of his predecessors) is the President of the United States, not the King of the United States. Our government is split such that there isn't someone to rule the world. Bush shares the government with Congress, the courts, and yes, the state and local governments. You know what I think? If he was the King, and could order everyone around, then things probably would have gone a lot faster because all he would have had to do is say the word, and it would have been able to be done. But, we don't have a dynasty-- we have this ridiculous over pumped-up beaurocracy that slows everything down (and that applies to every level of the government). If the government was more like the private sector, then a cost analysis would have been done, and the levies probably would have been fixed before the hurricane (Congress). Or, the LA disaster plan would have been followed, and the people who could not evacuate on their own would have been evacuated (City of NO, State of LA)*

Please continue with the debate (which makes this country great, despite the ridiculous beaurocracy-- there would likely be no free speech if there was a King instead of a President! :-))

*"The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating..." Louisiana Disaster plan, p. 13, Par. 5 (Jan, 2000).

[BuckNaked]

Great post, DisneyGirl. There were failures at all levels of government in this, no doubt about it. And like everyone else, I want to find out how to do it better next time.

What bothers me is that there are some people that aren't interested in finding out what went wrong so it can be fixed, they're interested in trying to make one group or another look bad so it can be used as a club during an election. And I think that's disgusting, regardless of which side is doing it.

[DisneyGirl]

Great post, DisneyGirl. There were failures at all levels of government in this, no doubt about it. And like everyone else, I want to find out how to do it better next time.

What bothers me is that there are some people that aren't interested in finding out what went wrong so it can be fixed, they interested in trying to make one group or another look bad so it can be used as a club during an election. And I think that's disgusting, regardless of which side is doing it.

My thoughts exactly! Let's get these people safe, decide on a rebuilding plan, make sure this never happens again . . . and then, the parties can politicize to their heart's content (because they will, no matter what)

[George_T]

This is far from Bush's fault. You want to blame someone, you blame the mayor and governor for this fiasco. You talk about lack of leadership; that's an understatement. We have had recent disasters before, and local leaders (Jeb Bush and Rudy Giuliani in particular) have been very powerful in their positions. The only time you see the mayor and governor, they come across as very timid.

And, Mississippi and Alabama were hit just as hard. You don't hear of the looting and extreme lawlessness in these locations. Leadership has been MUCH better in these areas.

[Puffy2]

The simple fact is, nature is to blame.

There can be many "people, govt. agencies, forces of nature" to "blame" for the natural disaster.

But only the Bush Administration has botched the emergency response effort. This country is SO ill prepared for a disaster of major preportions that it is an EMBARRASSMENT. And it's unforgiveable.

[BuckNaked]

But only the Bush Administration has botched the emergency response effort. This country is SO ill prepared for a disaster of major preportions that it is an EMBARRASSMENT. And it's unforgiveable.

Where President Bush botched it was in not taking the state and local government completely out of the chain by Wednesday afternoon. The entire effort should have been federalized with the NOLA and LA officials told to shut up and color.

[Puffy2]

All the news reports I saw with the Governor of Lousianna and Mayor of New Orleans had them literally BEGGING for help from the feds. BOTH of them were on camera saying that they were "promised that help was on the way...but where was it???"

The Mayor even said on Friday on camera that he had been told help was coming, and he said it was "BS". And you know what, he was RIGHT.

This was a national disaster. New Orleans resources were already under water. It was the Bush Administrations job to get in there quick, with the help that was needed. And they FAILED miserably.

[BuckNaked]

All the news reports I saw with the Governor of Lousianna and Mayor of New Orleans had them literally BEGGING for help from the feds. BOTH of them were on camera saying that they were "promised that help was on the way...but where was it???"

The Mayor even said on Friday on camera that he had been told help was coming, and he said it was "BS". And you know what, he was RIGHT.

This was a national disaster. New Orleans resources were already under water. It was the Bush Administrations job to get in there quick, with the help that was needed. And they FAILED miserably.

Yep, he failed miserably in not taking the entire process over.

It doesn't do any good to cry "we need help!!" FEMA needs to know what you need, how much of it you need, and where you need it. Don't you find it odd that FEMA didn't know about the people in the convention center until the news media told them? Why hadn't the local officals passed that info up the chain? Someone 50 miles away planning the distribution is in no position to know where the help is most needed, that's what the local government is supposed to let them know.



As for getting in there quickly, the system is set up such that the local officials are supposed to have plans for the immediate care of evacuees. They failed miserably in that aspect, wouldn't you say?

[LoraJ]

Was FEMA not asking the right questions though? The news media found the people at the convention center. It was all over the news. FEMA isn't monitoring the news? That's a big failure right there.

[LandscapePro_318]

Quite an interesting thread. I live in Louisiana and am amused at how much so many seem to know about the situation here.

Go back and take a look at post #42 ( it’s located on the 3rd page of this thread). That picture sums up the response. Yes, the confusion and “lack of” response began at the local level. It was compounded by a governor that lacked the ability to either lead / take charge or turn the responsibility over to the federal people who were already staged.

I’ve been fortunate enough to have available 2 “live feeds” since before this whole thing started. The first is from WWL television in New Orleans. The second is a dual live feed of “real time live” communications of the air assets being staged (prior to their starting work) and the state police / fema radio communications. I also had a family member that was involved in the rescue operation in his own boat until he was told to leave the area for it WAS NOT SAFE due to the armed bands of looters and thugs.

I have a first hand account of after “victims” were rescued from the rooftops, the boat owner was thrown overboard and the boat stolen. The boat was later recovered far away from the rescue area. It’s occupants were arrested by National Guard. They had stolen the boat to travel to a dry area to loot.

If there are questions you want answered try asking these…

Why did New Orleans mayor Nagan wait so long to order a mandatory evacuation of the city? It’s been in the plan for years that it would take from 48 to 72 hours to evacuate the city.

Once he finally DID give the order, why were the buses in the city not used to evacuate the people you’ve been watching on the news for the last days?

Once mayor Nagan declared “martial law” in the city, why was the N.O. police force not ordered to gain control of the city?

Ask mayor Nagan why members of the N.O. police force were video taped looting a local Wal-Mart pushing a buggy and picking out clothes and shoes.

Ask why did governor Blanco not take command of the National Guard and call them into the city at once to establish order?
Newsflash--- they work under command. The Governor is the “commander-in-chief” of the National Guard of his/her state just as the President is the “commander-in-chief” of the U.S. armed forces. Relief efforts work from the bottom up by design. It was the Governor’s responsibility to ASK for the federal government to “take command” of the situation. NOT the other way around. Governor Blanco made this request ONLY AFTER the President’s visit. Until such time as this request was made the relief / rescue effort or lack thereof was HER responsibility.

Ask Governor Blanco why the state was depending on cell phones to communicate relief efforts?

Ask Governor Blanco why in the first hours after she declared “martial law” in several parishes that statement wasn’t followed by “ I have given orders to the Louisiana National Guard to shoot on sight those involved in acts of violence and the destruction of property.”

Ask to see the financial records of the Levee Board of Orleans Parish. They had over a Million dollars in the bank prior to the last influx of Federal dollars yet they’ve spent virtually Nil on upgrades for the levee or the communications system.

Before you lay “blame” at the feet of the President, just look at what was done just as SOON as He was asked. Which, by the way, is how the system is designed.

Mike
Louisiana Resident

[gabbysmom04]

I wonder how many people who blame bush hated him already? Why have things gotten done in other states? in the chain of command you are only as strong as your weakest link. IMO the chain broke at the local gov. I do agree that help should have gotten to these people faster, there is no excuse for that. I also think that people should have left when they were told to. Instead I see people who thought they were better then the storm. I see people looting tvs, not food but tvs and nikes. I hear reports about rapes and murder. There is no excuse for that! You cannot have it both ways, you cannot have people complaining that they are not being bused out fast enough when you have people rolling buses over, or shooting at rescue workers. :confused3

[BuckNaked]

Was FEMA not asking the right questions though? The news media found the people at the convention center. It was all over the news. FEMA isn't monitoring the news? That's a big failure right there.

Do you want them watching television or do you want them working on trying to get aid to the people that need it?

I can see it now...aid flows into the convention center and the FEMA director (who I think should be fired) says he saw it on CNN. The outcry would have been "WTH is he watching TV instead of doing his job? Why is he relying on the news to get information on relief needs??"

I think it may be that FEMA wasn't asking the right questions, but it is the responsibility of local officials to let them know what is needed and where. If they didn't pass up the convention center info, what else didn't they pass up?

[lyeag]

Quite an interesting thread. I live in Louisiana and am amused at how much so many seem to know about the situation here.

Go back and take a look at post #42 ( it’s located on the 3rd page of this thread). That picture sums up the response. Yes, the confusion and “lack of” response began at the local level. It was compounded by a governor that lacked the ability to either lead / take charge or turn the responsibility over to the federal people who were already staged.

I’ve been fortunate enough to have available 2 “live feeds” since before this whole thing started. The first is from WWL television in New Orleans. The second is a dual live feed of “real time live” communications of the air assets being staged (prior to their starting work) and the state police / fema radio communications. I also had a family member that was involved in the rescue operation in his own boat until he was told to leave the area for it WAS NOT SAFE due to the armed bands of looters and thugs.

I have a first hand account of after “victims” were rescued from the rooftops, the boat owner was thrown overboard and the boat stolen. The boat was later recovered far away from the rescue area. It’s occupants were arrested by National Guard. They had stolen the boat to travel to a dry area to loot.

If there are questions you want answered try asking these…

Why did New Orleans mayor Nagan wait so long to order a mandatory evacuation of the city? It’s been in the plan for years that it would take from 48 to 72 hours to evacuate the city.

Once he finally DID give the order, why were the buses in the city not used to evacuate the people you’ve been watching on the news for the last days?

Once mayor Nagan declared “martial law” in the city, why was the N.O. police force not ordered to gain control of the city?

Ask mayor Nagan why members of the N.O. police force were video taped looting a local Wal-Mart pushing a buggy and picking out clothes and shoes.

Ask why did governor Blanco not take command of the National Guard and call them into the city at once to establish order?
Newsflash--- they work under command. The Governor is the “commander-in-chief” of the National Guard of his/her state just as the President is the “commander-in-chief” of the U.S. armed forces. Relief efforts work from the bottom up by design. It was the Governor’s responsibility to ASK for the federal government to “take command” of the situation. NOT the other way around. Governor Blanco made this request ONLY AFTER the President’s visit. Until such time as this request was made the relief / rescue effort or lack thereof was HER responsibility.

Ask Governor Blanco why the state was depending on cell phones to communicate relief efforts?

Ask Governor Blanco why in the first hours after she declared “martial law” in several parishes that statement wasn’t followed by “ I have given orders to the Louisiana National Guard to shoot on sight those involved in acts of violence and the destruction of property.”

Ask to see the financial records of the Levee Board of Orleans Parish. They had over a Million dollars in the bank prior to the last influx of Federal dollars yet they’ve spent virtually Nil on upgrades for the levee or the communications system.

Before you lay “blame” at the feet of the President, just look at what was done just as SOON as He was asked. Which, by the way, is how the system is designed.

Mike


Louisiana Resident

:worship: :worship: :worship: :thewave:

THANK YOU for posting this.

[LoraJ]

FEMA isn't one person. COnsidering they are part of Homeland Security, someone should be monitoring the media. Most likely these people wouldn't be in the NOLA area but could get them on the horn.

[C.Ann]

I wonder how many people who blame bush hated him already?
-------------------

I can only speak for myself.. I was never a Bush hater - and I still don't hate him.. I do hold him accountable for not responding sooner.. When there is a disaster of this magnitude going on in the country that he is in charge of he should not have waited for ANYONE to "ask" for him to get involved..

His motto has always been, "We need to keep our citizens out of harms way.." That's his response to everything - war; security measures; disaster preparedness.. Well - what happened? Was no one in "harms way"?

His attitude is extremely arrogant.. A simple, "You know what folks? Maybe I should have come back from my vacation and jumped on this a little sooner.." would go a LONG way.. But it will never happen.. As far as he's concerned he has never made a bad or questionable decision in his entire life.. If it's true, he's the only person walking this earth that can make that claim..

[BuckNaked]

When there is a disaster of this magnitude going on in the country that he is in charge of he should not have waited for ANYONE to "ask" for him to get involved..

Currently, it's the law - he has to wait for the requests. I'm for changing that law after this nightmare, and I was hoping he would have just out and out broken it by Wednesday night.

Maybe I should have come back from my vacation and jumped on this a little sooner.." would go a LONG way..

Yeah, because we know that Presidents don't do any work on their vacations...

[DisneyGirl]

-------------------

I can only speak for myself.. I was never a Bush hater - and I still don't hate him.. I do hold him accountable for not responding sooner.. When there is a disaster of this magnitude going on in the country that he is in charge of he should not have waited for ANYONE to "ask" for him to get involved..



If he didn't wait until the federal government was asked, the same people that are criticizing the delay would be criticizing him for overstepping his ground, and taking control in an area that belonged to the states.

[LoraJ]

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#076637

Why can't he respond to this request from yesterday? Is it because it's a holiday weekend?

[BuckNaked]

If he didn't wait until the federal government was asked, the same people that are criticizing the delay would be criticizing him for overstepping his ground, and taking control in an area that belonged to the states.

::yes::

I've got to say though, by Wednesday night, I was hoping he would just take it out of the LA's hands and take his chances with an impeachment. I was so mad I could spit.

[BuckNaked]

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#076637

Why can't he respond to this request from yesterday? Is it because it's a holiday weekend?

One Senator asks for a cabinet level appointee to take over, and you expect the President to jump to do her bidding? Are you really serious?

Who do you recommend for the job? Not that it would matter, because you would complain about whatever they did, too.

[LoraJ]

It's not just that, she was requesting copters to help put out fires from the air. No response. That's mostly what I am talking about.

[lyeag]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680_pf.html

A very interesting article....


The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

"The federal government stands ready to work with state and local officials to secure New Orleans and the state of Louisiana," White House spokesman Dan Bartlett said. "The president will not let any form of bureaucracy get in the way of protecting the citizens of Louisiana."

[C.Ann]

If he didn't wait until the federal government was asked, the same people that are criticizing the delay would be criticizing him for overstepping his ground, and taking control in an area that belonged to the states.
----------------------

Right - because there are so many people out there who prefer watching people die in the meantime...

[BuckNaked]

It's not just that, she was requesting copters to help put out fires from the air. No response. That's mostly what I am talking about.

They can't do it based on her asking - it has to be a state or local official. If they haven't asked, then it's another example of why it should just be taken away from them.

[LoraJ]

They can't do it based on her asking - it has to be a state or local official. If they haven't asked, then it's another example of why it should just be taken away from them.


Well then they should take it already.

[BuckNaked]

Well then they should take it already.

ITA, it should have been done days ago.

And if and when it's done, wait for the outcry from the usual suspects about the President taking control away from local officials in order to make himself look like more of a leader.

[LoraJ]

ITA, it should have been done days ago.

And if and when it's done, wait for the outcry from the usual suspects about the President taking control away from local officials in order to make himself look like more of a leader.


Well it won't come from me.

[DisneyGirl]

----------------------

Right - because there are so many people out there who prefer watching people die in the meantime...

That's not a fair statement. It is true that there would not have been the problems we saw at the Superdome. Therefore, people wouldn't have the perspective we have now to compare it to, and indeed, the President would be criticized for overstepping his bounds. That is undisputable.

If, we can go back in time and try again, and he would, THEN maybe there would be less (I still can't say no) criticism, but we can't. Hindsight is 20/20. The executive branch of the federal government was following the necessary protocol, as granted to it by the Constitution of the United States, and legislated by Congress.

[C.Ann]

That's not a fair statement. It is true that there would not have been the problems we saw at the Superdome. Therefore, people wouldn't have the perspective we have now to compare it to, and indeed, the President would be criticized for overstepping his bounds. That is undisputable.

If, we can go back in time and try again, and he would, THEN maybe there would be less (I still can't say no) criticism, but we can't. Hindsight is 20/20. The executive branch of the federal government was following the necessary protocol, as granted to it by the Constitution of the United States, and legislated by Congress.
-----------

Okay.

Doesn't change my feelings or my opinions one bit - but - okay..

[TnTsParty]

I agree the main fault lies with the local and state goverment there are too many who already didn't like Bush and so automatically blame him for EVERYTHING. I could be wrong but I thought I heard that the mayor of NO was in Baton Rauge - why wasn't HE in NO - was he afraid of the armed bands that were shooting at the very people trying to help them. One of the biggest problem started when the local goverment (may have been the Mayor or possibly the governor of LA) said that they were focusing on search and rescue and not worrying about the looters - well that sent the WRONG message and just causde the lawlessness that forced those that were willing to help away. Its one thing to focus only on search and rescue but it did not have to be voiced. There had to be some sort of break down in the local goverment since they told all the people who couldn't or wouldn't or didn't evacuate in time to go to certian areas with no real plan of what to do next - what was the local goverment doing - waiting on the Federal Goverment to step in and take over. Also there were plenty of people willing to help (including a group of airboaters from around here that were ready and packed with supplies - I think FEMA was the one who held them back) but it was all due to the unsafe situation that they were held back.

Here is southeastern Florida we experienced 2 hurricanes last year (I know not to the severity of Katrina) but unfortunately there are still people who are trying to rebuild a year after Frances. Yet you didn't see complete disregard for authority like we are seeing in NO.

I must agree that there is something wrong within FEMA especially since there were so many that needed the FEMA funds last year but were not given them because it was given to Miami-Dade county which was not even touched by either hurricane. Yet they were affected by Katrina but will not be getting funds this time around.

Besides NO there are lots of other places that were devestated by this storm - I feel like the people in NO feel that they are "owed" something - what about the other areas that were hit and complete towns that are destroyed - they at least aren't trying to KILL the very people that are trying to help them.

[BuckNaked]

Well it won't come from me.

I absolutely believe that, but you know it would happen.

[flexsmom]

Does anybody here really have any idea how long it takes to logistically pull together a response of the magnitude of what is going on right now? The hurricane passed through with about the same traditional types of damage that happen when hurricanes occur.....and then the levies broke in NOLA, which totally changed the ballgame. I'm assuming that since people are on these boards, they are probably Disney lovers. How long does it take you to pack for your family to go on their vacation? I know it takes me a long time, and that's just for 4 people. So how long do you think it takes to mobilize a force to move in with the food, water, medical supplies, tents, and everything else needed to reincorporate any kind of infrastructure for this many people? Oh yeah, then add to it the fact that people are shooting at you when you're trying to do that and you're trying to move trucks to deliver it into feet of water. Even if ALL of that load was prepositioned right outside of the city, once that flooding started it would have set them back days.....about as long as people seem to think it took for the Federal government to "get involved". Frankly, I'm flabbergasted that we've become a society so dependent upon our Government - Republican or Democrat - that we shout at the moon and blame the Gov't when our social infrastructure breaks down because of a major natural disaster. Is it horrible? Yes. Is it terrifying for the people who are enduring it at that moment? Yes. But I'm just really sad that our expectations are this high. No matter WHO was in office at any level, I'm willing to bet that the circumstances would be the same.

Oh, and before I get attacked for my first question, after a few years in a Marine Corps expeditionary unit, you get an idea of what the levels of effort are to move a large force with all of its gear and supplies, so that's the basis of my tolerance for understanding the elapsed time between the event and the delivery.

Sorry - just frustrated!

[need_a_Disney_fix]

Umm...excuse me, but our President declared all of this a federal disaster before Katrina came ashore. That allowed the Louisiana governer to ask for federal aid of ANY kind, including the National Guard, at ANY TIME. Why in the he!! did she not ask for help on Sunday when it was certain that Katrina was going to be a problem. In my opinion, she is SERIOUSLY flawed and perhaps the one to blame. Okay, I feel better now. Get a clue, people!!!

[BuckNaked]

Does anybody here really have any idea how long it takes to logistically pull together a response of the magnitude of what is going on right now? The hurricane passed through with about the same traditional types of damage that happen when hurricanes occur.....and then the levies broke in NOLA, which totally changed the ballgame. I'm assuming that since people are on these boards, they are probably Disney lovers. How long does it take you to pack for your family to go on their vacation? I know it takes me a long time, and that's just for 4 people. So how long do you think it takes to mobilize a force to move in with the food, water, medical supplies, tents, and everything else needed to reincorporate any kind of infrastructure for this many people? Oh yeah, then add to it the fact that people are shooting at you when you're trying to do that and you're trying to move trucks to deliver it into feet of water. Even if ALL of that load was prepositioned right outside of the city, once that flooding started it would have set them back days.....about as long as people seem to think it took for the Federal government to "get involved". Frankly, I'm flabbergasted that we've become a society so dependent upon our Government - Republican or Democrat - that we shout at the moon and blame the Gov't when our social infrastructure breaks down because of a major natural disaster. Is it horrible? Yes. Is it terrifying for the people who are enduring it at that moment? Yes. But I'm just really sad that our expectations are this high. No matter WHO was in office at any level, I'm willing to bet that the circumstances would be the same.

Oh, and before I get attacked for my first question, after a few years in a Marine Corps expeditionary unit, you get an idea of what the levels of effort are to move a large force with all of its gear and supplies, so that's the basis of my tolerance for understanding the elapsed time between the event and the delivery.

Sorry - just frustrated!

Great post!!

Hi neighbor - I'm in DC, my kids go to school in Alexandria!

[LoraJ]

Umm...excuse me, but our President declared all of this a federal disaster before Katrina came ashore. That allowed the Louisiana governer to ask for federal aid of ANY kind, including the National Guard, at ANY TIME. Why in the he!! did she not ask for help on Sunday when it was certain that Katrina was going to be a problem. In my opinion, she is SERIOUSLY flawed and perhaps the one to blame. Okay, I feel better now. Get a clue, people!!!


Actually, I read somewhere that she did on SUNDAY night.

[halestrm]

Be careful what you want the Fed's to be allowed to take over. Those of you, who dislike Bush, think of this. Marriage rights should be a state right. Bush believes that the Feds should have a say. If you don't want the Feds telling you how to marry, don't let them tell you how to run a disaster. This may seem off base, but as my Grandpa told me time and again, the depression started a slow ruin of this once free nation.

Our gov't is purposefully set up so that the Federal Gov't has very few rights over states. States rule all but the defense and unification of the country; which includes interstate roads, the railways, elections, military and other issues.

We have lost and continue to loss MANY rights. The right to drive without a seatbelt, the right to free access to gov't controlled land, but most importantly, the right to be stupid. The right to make stupid mistakes and suffer the consequences is what allows our nation to grow and prosper.

This was horrifying, and the nightmares will continue. I just hope that my Nation will stay strong and not try to rip itself apart at the seams. I hope that my Nation will look to the mistakes and learn from them, in a unified and dignified manner. My fear is that based on what I am reading and seeing in the news, we will instead refuse to take responsibility for OUR mistakes, and look for someone to take the blame.

I am using this lesson to investigate what my city and state have as preparedness plans for my community. I have a large nuclear facility near me, what if… I have already read FEMA and Red Cross recommendations, and have put a plan in place for my family, but what does my city plan to due in case of a disaster. If it isn’t enough, I will speak out!

Instead of expecting your government to be responsible for your safety, learn to take responsibility.

[need_a_Disney_fix]

Thats what our country sorely lacks these days...taking responsibilty for ourselves. What a novel idea!!!!!

[gabbysmom04]

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot complain that our fed. gov does not take over fast enough and be mad when they do. You cannot shoot at a rescue plane then complain that rescues are not fast enough. People complain about all the looting then complain when the mayor has the police try to control the looters. I myself am not a Bush hater, I see that people were able to get things done in other states. which is why I think blame starts at the bottom. For people who think so little of Bush, you give him so much power. Maybe next time he'll just wave his magic wand. I think some people are just looking for an excuse to put Bush down. Nothing that he does will ever be good enough for some people.

[tinkerbellmom31]

Quite an interesting thread. I live in Louisiana and am amused at how much so many seem to know about the situation here.

Go back and take a look at post #42 ( it’s located on the 3rd page of this thread). That picture sums up the response. Yes, the confusion and “lack of” response began at the local level. It was compounded by a governor that lacked the ability to either lead / take charge or turn the responsibility over to the federal people who were already staged.

I’ve been fortunate enough to have available 2 “live feeds” since before this whole thing started. The first is from WWL television in New Orleans. The second is a dual live feed of “real time live” communications of the air assets being staged (prior to their starting work) and the state police / fema radio communications. I also had a family member that was involved in the rescue operation in his own boat until he was told to leave the area for it WAS NOT SAFE due to the armed bands of looters and thugs.

I have a first hand account of after “victims” were rescued from the rooftops, the boat owner was thrown overboard and the boat stolen. The boat was later recovered far away from the rescue area. It’s occupants were arrested by National Guard. They had stolen the boat to travel to a dry area to loot.

If there are questions you want answered try asking these…

Why did New Orleans mayor Nagan wait so long to order a mandatory evacuation of the city? It’s been in the plan for years that it would take from 48 to 72 hours to evacuate the city.

Once he finally DID give the order, why were the buses in the city not used to evacuate the people you’ve been watching on the news for the last days?

Once mayor Nagan declared “martial law” in the city, why was the N.O. police force not ordered to gain control of the city?

Ask mayor Nagan why members of the N.O. police force were video taped looting a local Wal-Mart pushing a buggy and picking out clothes and shoes.

Ask why did governor Blanco not take command of the National Guard and call them into the city at once to establish order?
Newsflash--- they work under command. The Governor is the “commander-in-chief” of the National Guard of his/her state just as the President is the “commander-in-chief” of the U.S. armed forces. Relief efforts work from the bottom up by design. It was the Governor’s responsibility to ASK for the federal government to “take command” of the situation. NOT the other way around. Governor Blanco made this request ONLY AFTER the President’s visit. Until such time as this request was made the relief / rescue effort or lack thereof was HER responsibility.

Ask Governor Blanco why the state was depending on cell phones to communicate relief efforts?

Ask Governor Blanco why in the first hours after she declared “martial law” in several parishes that statement wasn’t followed by “ I have given orders to the Louisiana National Guard to shoot on sight those involved in acts of violence and the destruction of property.”

Ask to see the financial records of the Levee Board of Orleans Parish. They had over a Million dollars in the bank prior to the last influx of Federal dollars yet they’ve spent virtually Nil on upgrades for the levee or the communications system.

Before you lay “blame” at the feet of the President, just look at what was done just as SOON as He was asked. Which, by the way, is how the system is designed.

Mike
Louisiana Resident
Thank you Mike. I hope you are you family are all safe.

[PoohFairy]

Quite an interesting thread. I live in Louisiana and am amused at how much so many seem to know about the situation here.

Go back and take a look at post #42 ( it’s located on the 3rd page of this thread). That picture sums up the response. Yes, the confusion and “lack of” response began at the local level. It was compounded by a governor that lacked the ability to either lead / take charge or turn the responsibility over to the federal people who were already staged.

I’ve been fortunate enough to have available 2 “live feeds” since before this whole thing started. The first is from WWL television in New Orleans. The second is a dual live feed of “real time live” communications of the air assets being staged (prior to their starting work) and the state police / fema radio communications. I also had a family member that was involved in the rescue operation in his own boat until he was told to leave the area for it WAS NOT SAFE due to the armed bands of looters and thugs.

I have a first hand account of after “victims” were rescued from the rooftops, the boat owner was thrown overboard and the boat stolen. The boat was later recovered far away from the rescue area. It’s occupants were arrested by National Guard. They had stolen the boat to travel to a dry area to loot.

If there are questions you want answered try asking these…

Why did New Orleans mayor Nagan wait so long to order a mandatory evacuation of the city? It’s been in the plan for years that it would take from 48 to 72 hours to evacuate the city.

Once he finally DID give the order, why were the buses in the city not used to evacuate the people you’ve been watching on the news for the last days?

Once mayor Nagan declared “martial law” in the city, why was the N.O. police force not ordered to gain control of the city?

Ask mayor Nagan why members of the N.O. police force were video taped looting a local Wal-Mart pushing a buggy and picking out clothes and shoes.

Ask why did governor Blanco not take command of the National Guard and call them into the city at once to establish order?
Newsflash--- they work under command. The Governor is the “commander-in-chief” of the National Guard of his/her state just as the President is the “commander-in-chief” of the U.S. armed forces. Relief efforts work from the bottom up by design. It was the Governor’s responsibility to ASK for the federal government to “take command” of the situation. NOT the other way around. Governor Blanco made this request ONLY AFTER the President’s visit. Until such time as this request was made the relief / rescue effort or lack thereof was HER responsibility.

Ask Governor Blanco why the state was depending on cell phones to communicate relief efforts?

Ask Governor Blanco why in the first hours after she declared “martial law” in several parishes that statement wasn’t followed by “ I have given orders to the Louisiana National Guard to shoot on sight those involved in acts of violence and the destruction of property.”

Ask to see the financial records of the Levee Board of Orleans Parish. They had over a Million dollars in the bank prior to the last influx of Federal dollars yet they’ve spent virtually Nil on upgrades for the levee or the communications system.

Before you lay “blame” at the feet of the President, just look at what was done just as SOON as He was asked. Which, by the way, is how the system is designed.

Mike
Louisiana Resident


Excellent questions that I have been wondering myself. The plans were in place, there at least 200 school buses plus the city buses, why weren't the plans implemented and followed? Isn't that the Mayors job? At least 146 of those city buses were less than a mile from the Superdome. :(

[C.Ann]

Instead of expecting your government to be responsible for your safety, learn to take responsibility.
----------------

I can certainly agree with this part of your post.. It's come home loud and clear - in the face of a massive disaster, be prepared to fend for yourself.. It's your best shot at survival..

[jgmklmhem]

I am using this lesson to investigate what my city and state have as preparedness plans for my community. I have a large nuclear facility near me, what if… I have already read FEMA and Red Cross recommendations, and have put a plan in place for my family, but what does my city plan to due in case of a disaster. If it isn’t enough, I will speak out!



I hope everyone is doing this sort of thing in communities all over the country and world. In something of this magnitude would you know where to go and what to do? Do you already have the needed supplies? I know that I didn't and didn't really think about it until this hit.

[brittsmum1998]

[QUOTE=C.Ann]----------------

I can certainly agree with this part of your post.. It's come home loud and clear - in the face of a massive disaster, be prepared to fend for yourself.. It's your best shot at survival

I didn't get that impression at all :confused3 You've got someone living in the area and it still isn't clear? Very well said Landscape, I read this to my DH and we both totally agree. Why is such a catastrophy still turned into a rep/dem issue? i guess the republicans should start screaming that NO is a democratic area? It seems to me that no matter what OUR president does, it will never be right.

Again, Landscape, ty for putting it into perspective. I hope people can keep an open mind during such a tragedy.

[mickeyfan2]

Personally, if I were involved with New Orleans, I would have used the Superdome not as a shelter, but as a transfer station BEFORE the hurricane hit. Why people were told to hunker down there instead of told to go there so that they could be evacuated by bus or chopper I will never understand.

Sadly this is what NOLA has done in a previous hurricane evacuation situation. I would have to guess that this is part of their plan. They believed it could withstand 200 mph winds and you could go up the seating area to stay above water.

BTW NOLA police only owned three boats and only one is in working order right now.

[mickeyfan2]

3. As a non-Bush lover, I have to comment-- this really applies to all of the times in the past 5 years when Bush has been bashed by anyone. Please keep in mind that Bush (and any of his predecessors) is the President of the United States, not the King of the United States. Our government is split such that there isn't someone to rule the world. Bush shares the government with Congress, the courts, and yes, the state and local governments. You know what I think? If he was the King, and could order everyone around, then things probably would have gone a lot faster because all he would have had to do is say the word, and it would have been able to be done. But, we don't have a dynasty-- we have this ridiculous over pumped-up beaurocracy that slows everything down (and that applies to every level of the government). If the government was more like the private sector, then a cost analysis would have been done, and the levies probably would have been fixed before the hurricane (Congress). Or, the LA disaster plan would have been followed, and the people who could not evacuate on their own would have been evacuated (City of NO, State of LA)*

I completely agree.


*"The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating..." Louisiana Disaster plan, p. 13, Par. 5 (Jan, 2000).

Too bad they did not actually use the school buses. See previous picture in this thread.

[mickeyfan2]

Quite an interesting thread. I live in Louisiana and am amused at how much so many seem to know about the situation here.

Go back and take a look at post #42 ( it’s located on the 3rd page of this thread). That picture sums up the response. Yes, the confusion and “lack of” response began at the local level. It was compounded by a governor that lacked the ability to either lead / take charge or turn the responsibility over to the federal people who were already staged.

I’ve been fortunate enough to have available 2 “live feeds” since before this whole thing started. The first is from WWL television in New Orleans. The second is a dual live feed of “real time live” communications of the air assets being staged (prior to their starting work) and the state police / fema radio communications. I also had a family member that was involved in the rescue operation in his own boat until he was told to leave the area for it WAS NOT SAFE due to the armed bands of looters and thugs.

I have a first hand account of after “victims” were rescued from the rooftops, the boat owner was thrown overboard and the boat stolen. The boat was later recovered far away from the rescue area. It’s occupants were arrested by National Guard. They had stolen the boat to travel to a dry area to loot.

If there are questions you want answered try asking these…

Why did New Orleans mayor Nagan wait so long to order a mandatory evacuation of the city? It’s been in the plan for years that it would take from 48 to 72 hours to evacuate the city.

Once he finally DID give the order, why were the buses in the city not used to evacuate the people you’ve been watching on the news for the last days?

Once mayor Nagan declared “martial law” in the city, why was the N.O. police force not ordered to gain control of the city?

Ask mayor Nagan why members of the N.O. police force were video taped looting a local Wal-Mart pushing a buggy and picking out clothes and shoes.

Ask why did governor Blanco not take command of the National Guard and call them into the city at once to establish order?
Newsflash--- they work under command. The Governor is the “commander-in-chief” of the National Guard of his/her state just as the President is the “commander-in-chief” of the U.S. armed forces. Relief efforts work from the bottom up by design. It was the Governor’s responsibility to ASK for the federal government to “take command” of the situation. NOT the other way around. Governor Blanco made this request ONLY AFTER the President’s visit. Until such time as this request was made the relief / rescue effort or lack thereof was HER responsibility.

Ask Governor Blanco why the state was depending on cell phones to communicate relief efforts?

Ask Governor Blanco why in the first hours after she declared “martial law” in several parishes that statement wasn’t followed by “ I have given orders to the Louisiana National Guard to shoot on sight those involved in acts of violence and the destruction of property.”

Ask to see the financial records of the Levee Board of Orleans Parish. They had over a Million dollars in the bank prior to the last influx of Federal dollars yet they’ve spent virtually Nil on upgrades for the levee or the communications system.

Before you lay “blame” at the feet of the President, just look at what was done just as SOON as He was asked. Which, by the way, is how the system is designed.

Mike
Louisiana Resident



Great post.

[totalia]

Frankly, I'm disgusted by posts that seek to apportion blame regarding the hurricane. It was a monumental natural disaster. Americans seem to want to blame someone for everything. That's the reason we have a zillion lawyers and lawsuits.

The simple fact is, nature is to blame. The simple fact is, it was only a matter of time before New Orleans experienced this. The simple fact is, had this happened in 1950, none of you would be blaming anyone because you wouldn't even know a lot of the details.

Now, any event is subject to so much scrutiny that no politician (mayor of New Orleans, governor of Louisiana, Senators, Congressmen, the President) could possibly live up to public expectations. People are angry at the devastation and the suffering -- got it. But why is your anger directed at those trying to help? Because they're not helping right? Because they're not helping fast enough? Man, I'd hate to be in the position of trying to help some of the people on these boards.

As the general who led the convoy into town said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already." This from the general that the mayor praised for being someone who would get things done.

Yes, the hurricane is to blame. For hitting.

The response to the hurricane after it happened lies in the countries leaders. They take the glory or the blame. And right now, the response only deserves blame.

[chobie]

I completely agree.




Too bad they did not actually use the school buses. See previous picture in this thread.

So I guess there just happened to be all these people licensed to drive the buses, who were willing to drive them, who could get to the areas that needed the buses etc? Yeah, it was all so easy... :rolleyes:

[totalia]

Be careful what you want the Fed's to be allowed to take over. Those of you, who dislike Bush, think of this. Marriage rights should be a state right. Bush believes that the Feds should have a say. If you don't want the Feds telling you how to marry, don't let them tell you how to run a disaster. This may seem off base, but as my Grandpa told me time and again, the depression started a slow ruin of this once free nation.

Our gov't is purposefully set up so that the Federal Gov't has very few rights over states. States rule all but the defense and unification of the country; which includes interstate roads, the railways, elections, military and other issues.

We have lost and continue to loss MANY rights. The right to drive without a seatbelt, the right to free access to gov't controlled land, but most importantly, the right to be stupid. The right to make stupid mistakes and suffer the consequences is what allows our nation to grow and prosper.

This was horrifying, and the nightmares will continue. I just hope that my Nation will stay strong and not try to rip itself apart at the seams. I hope that my Nation will look to the mistakes and learn from them, in a unified and dignified manner. My fear is that based on what I am reading and seeing in the news, we will instead refuse to take responsibility for OUR mistakes, and look for someone to take the blame.

I am using this lesson to investigate what my city and state have as preparedness plans for my community. I have a large nuclear facility near me, what if… I have already read FEMA and Red Cross recommendations, and have put a plan in place for my family, but what does my city plan to due in case of a disaster. If it isn’t enough, I will speak out!

Instead of expecting your government to be responsible for your safety, learn to take responsibility.

I'd love to know how you'd take responsibility for your life if you have no car, no money to get a bus out of a city, and no place to go if you do, and the inability to even pay for a place to go if you leave the city.

How would YOU deal with not having food, and water for 5 days? How would YOU deal with that?

Put yourself in those suffering poor peoples shoes and tell me you could "take responsibility". When you have nothing already.

The reality is that there ARE poor and downtrodden. Should they just lay down and die without asking anyone for help? Should they just have let themselves die in the flood waters because they had no other choice?

[profdsny]

Only reading bits and pieces, because there are so many posts. But it amazes me that people said that orders should have been given to shoot looters. REALLY? Looting is theft, AND IS NOT A CAPITAL OFFENSE. YOU DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE FOR STEALING. YOU DON'T EVEN SHOOT PEOPLE FOR BREAKING INTO STORES. IT'S A PROPERTY CRIME! This isn't Russia, or any other 3rd World country. This is the US, where if someone commits a crime, you take him or her to trial. Martial law or otherwise. Wake up.

[dcentity2000]

Only reading bits and pieces, because there are so many posts. But it amazes me that people said that orders should have been given to shoot looters. REALLY? Looting is theft, AND IS NOT A CAPITAL OFFENSE. YOU DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE FOR STEALING. YOU DON'T EVEN SHOOT PEOPLE FOR BREAKING INTO STORES. IT'S A PROPERTY CRIME! This isn't Russia, or any other 3rd World country. This is the US, where if someone commits a crime, you take him or her to trial. Martial law or otherwise. Wake up.
Yeah, this struck me too. I HOPE it's just a scare tactic - how barbarous would it be to punish theft with death?



Rich::

[brittsmum1998]

While I agree it isn't capitol punishment to loot, how do you expect people to get help, stay safe etc. You really think these thugs should be allowed to shoot at police, citizens etc. :confused3

[dcentity2000]

You really think these thugs should be allowed to shoot at police, citizens etc. :confused3

Of course not; I don't think anyone would advocate that! I just personally feel that shoot to kill orders should not be given over theft (if it has been.)

Shooting at others is a cruel and horrific act and should the attacked need to open fire in self defence, well...



Rich::

[mickeyfan2]

So I guess there just happened to be all these people licensed to drive the buses, who were willing to drive them, who could get to the areas that needed the buses etc? Yeah, it was all so easy... :rolleyes:

It was the Mayor's job to have drivers for the buses. The buses were part of his plan. Having a plan to use buses without drivers makes no sense. :confused3

[George_T]

Only reading bits and pieces, because there are so many posts. But it amazes me that people said that orders should have been given to shoot looters. REALLY? Looting is theft, AND IS NOT A CAPITAL OFFENSE. YOU DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE FOR STEALING. YOU DON'T EVEN SHOOT PEOPLE FOR BREAKING INTO STORES. IT'S A PROPERTY CRIME! This isn't Russia, or any other 3rd World country. This is the US, where if someone commits a crime, you take him or her to trial. Martial law or otherwise. Wake up.


Ah, it wasn't just looting a few groceries that these thugs were doing. They were shooting at rescue workers, raping the innocent, intimidating the victims, etc. I agree, you don't shoot for looting. However, you put the innocent in harm's way, that's another story. That was one major problem with the local law enforcement situation. Policemen were being shot at and could not defend themselves.

[LoraJ]

Ah, it wasn't just looting a few groceries that these thugs were doing. They were shooting at rescue workers, raping the innocent, intimidating the victims, etc. I agree, you don't shoot for looting. However, you put the innocent in harm's way, that's another story. That was one major problem with the local law enforcement situation. Policemen were being shot at and could not defend themselves.


Not all looters were doing that. In fact I bet most looters weren't.

I was reading an article from another post written by a tourist who was trapped there. This tourist along with a bunch of others looted a store because they had no food. You think they should have been killed?

I am all for the cops shooting those that re armed when their lives are in danger.

[BuckNaked]

Looting for food to survive is one thing. Looting for TV sets and DVD players is something else. And when they let people get away with it in the first day or so, they basically ceded control of the city to the thugs that knew they had nothing to fear from the NOLA police.

[Charade]

Only reading bits and pieces, because there are so many posts. But it amazes me that people said that orders should have been given to shoot looters. REALLY? Looting is theft, AND IS NOT A CAPITAL OFFENSE. YOU DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE FOR STEALING. YOU DON'T EVEN SHOOT PEOPLE FOR BREAKING INTO STORES. IT'S A PROPERTY CRIME! This isn't Russia, or any other 3rd World country. This is the US, where if someone commits a crime, you take him or her to trial. Martial law or otherwise. Wake up.

Under martial law the people can be shot for looting. But that doesn't mean it should be done but the option is there in certain circumstances. Martial law is declared to regain order to a chaotic situation. In most cases it overrides civil law. It's to restore law and order.

[minniepumpernickel]

I'm so glad that I found this thread. I totally agree with Babar! I'm not a poly sci major and I've never studied politics. So I am just speaking from the perspective of the average person watching TV news. We were seeing all of these people who are suffering without medication, or food, dieing on the street, etc. Of course we are going to ask, why didn't the President do something about it sooner. He is ultimately in charge of the system, right. If he is seeing it fail, couldn't he just step in? Thats what is making some of us so amd about this whole thing! :confused3

[peachgirl]

It was the Mayor's job to have drivers for the buses. The buses were part of his plan. Having a plan to use buses without drivers makes no sense. :confused3

At the risk of being guilty of saying the same thing over and over again, my question regarding the busses is still the same.

Where were they going to drive the busses to????? There were no evacuation centers set up outside New Orleans to handle tens of thousands of people...where were they going to take them?

[need_a_Disney_fix]

I'm so glad that I found this thread. I totally agree with Babar! I'm not a poly sci major and I've never studied politics. So I am just speaking from the perspective of the average person watching TV news. We were seeing all of these people who are suffering without medication, or food, dieing on the street, etc. Of course we are going to ask, why didn't the President do something about it sooner. He is ultimately in charge of the system, right. If he is seeing it fail, couldn't he just step in? Thats what is making some of us so amd about this whole thing! :confused3

The President did do his job. He declared this a disaster before it was a disaster so that the Governor could ASK for help. She failed to do so IN THE PROPER AMOUNT OF TIME. The President was pleading to call for a mandatory evacuation. Why was it just a voluntary evacuation, Mayor Nagin?

[minniepumpernickel]

The President did do his job. He declared this a disaster before it was a disaster so that the Governor could ASK for help. She failed to do so IN THE PROPER AMOUNT OF TIME. The President was pleading to call for a mandatory evacuation. Why was it just a voluntary evacuation, Mayor Nagin?

Yes, but why were the people virtually helpless for four days? Can we really blame it all on the governor? I don't know, thats why I'm asking?

We'd better stop debating, or one of us will get banned!

[peachgirl]

Why was it just a voluntary evacuation, Mayor Nagin?

Because at the time, that was the prudent thing to do. Sunday morning, when it appeared as though New Orleans was a more certain target, the evacuation became "mandatory".

I won't even argue the point of whether the Governor asked "in time" or not...it's been argued ad nauseum. Let's just say that it's most certainly not a fact that she failed to ask "in time" or that she had to formally ask at all.

Can we really blame it all on the governor?

You can if all you want to do is keep from placing any blame on the Federal level.

[ThAnswr]

This debate will always be political because it is political entities headed by political appointees who organize and head the various organizations.

Here's the latest story with the most political angle of all:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/07/katrina/main821650.shtml

Mayor Nagin was right. There were inconscionable delays in getting help to the victims. FEMA waited and waited and told certain, who were ready, to wait.

And this part of the August 29 memo makes the politics and priorities very clear:

>>Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.<<

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002477094_katrinaresponse07.html

"Convey a positive image"..........it doesn't get more political than that and something that's said by a card carrying member of the bureauracracy.

Btw, hurricane season is in full swing and there could be another Katrina next week. There isn't plenty of time to assess/investigate the problem.

[LoraJ]

It was the Mayor's job to have drivers for the buses. The buses were part of his plan. Having a plan to use buses without drivers makes no sense. :confused3


Here we go again with the buses. They did have buses and they were executed according to the evacuation plan. But they couldn't force every single person out of their homes to get on those buses if they didn't want to.

[needawdwtrip]

I think there is plenty of blame to go around to city, state and federal government levels. Each shares a responsibility and should have communicated better before, during, and after this tragedy. No one here did thier job correctly and I can guarantee no one will take responsibilty because they are too busy defending themselves and placing blame on everyone but themselves from the highest to the lowest level and everyone in between. (When is the last time you heard a politician say they made a mistake?)

I can also say that no one on any level of government wanted this to happen but unfortunatley in life we do not get do overs. We just need to LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES so they don't happen again and move on. Spend less time rehashing what went wrong and focus on what needs to be done now, and should be done in the future if anything of this magnitude happens again. :grouphug:

Don't forget that we too have a responsibility to help our friends and neighbors any way we can in times like these.

[BuckNaked]

Here we go again with the buses. They did have buses and they were executed according to the evacuation plan. But they couldn't force every single person out of their homes to get on those buses if they didn't want to.

Every bus in the city was used? Every school bus, every tour bus, every metro bus?

If you've got something that shows otherwise, I'd love to see it, because there has been no mention whatsoever of the mayor taking over buses and trying to evacuate people from NOLA.

[LoraJ]

Every bus in the city was used? Every school bus, every tour bus, every metro bus?

If you've got something that shows otherwise, I'd love to see it, because there has been no mention whatsoever of the mayor taking over buses and trying to evacuate people from NOLA.

I'm just saying I have yet to hear anyone say they weren't able to leave their home because there weren't enough buses. If you see otherwise, let me know.

[What the Heck]

I'm so glad that I found this thread. I totally agree with Babar! I'm not a poly sci major and I've never studied politics. So I am just speaking from the perspective of the average person watching TV news. We were seeing all of these people who are suffering without medication, or food, dieing on the street, etc. Of course we are going to ask, why didn't the President do something about it sooner. He is ultimately in charge of the system, right. If he is seeing it fail, couldn't he just step in? Thats what is making some of us so amd about this whole thing! :confused3When you ask if the President is ultimately in charge of the system, I think you get right to the heart of the matter. Those that wish to blame him, say yes, those others say it is the Mayor and Governor who are ultimately in charge of the system. Evacuation and Disaster Recovery belongs to the State and local governments, and it should. No one has answered my question - we have a guy as President that you think is incompetant - do we really want to give him authority for State and local governments as well? Do we really want to give our President (no matter who he is) dictatorial powers?

We need to look at this whole situation later, after we are out of the rescue phase. Yes, ThAnswer I know we are in hurricane season, but we can't pull the people we need to be witnesses when they are kinda busy right now.

One question I have for those who are blaming the President - why is it that a disaster such as this in Florida does not have all of the same problems and blame going on? Why is it that Florida is able to respond better, even when Clinton was President, or the previous Bush (and Lawton Chiles, a Democrat, was Governor)? Could it be because the State government is in a better place to handle it because Florida gets hit a lot harder and more often than Louisiana? Because a "trial run" in Florida is for a real hurricane bearing down on it? Why is it the Floridians don't sit around going "well, the Federal Government should have done more"? Why is Louisiana the only state saying that (or not saying that that Federal Government did all they can, like the Governors of Mississippi and Alabama)?

[What the Heck]

Here we go again with the buses. They did have buses and they were executed according to the evacuation plan. But they couldn't force every single person out of their homes to get on those buses if they didn't want to.Then perhaps the plan was flawed - they evacuated them to the SuperBowl, not out of town. And we aren't talking about those who didn't want to leave their homes, we are talking about the poor who couldn't afford to leave New Orleans, but might have wanted to. That is the part the buses play or should have played in my mind. That is what needs to be looked at in every Evacuation Plan by every city on the coast - now, before their city needs to evacuate.

[BuckNaked]

I'm just saying I have yet to hear anyone say they weren't able to leave their home because there weren't enough buses. If you see otherwise, let me know.

Then you obviously haven't seen or read the interviews with tourists that were stranded with no way out, or students at Xavier that were had no way to leave because they didn't have cars. Or the words of people in shelters saying "how were we supposed to leave, we didn't have cars?"

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the mayor even bothered to follow his own evacuation plan.

[ThAnswr]

We need to look at this whole situation later, after we are out of the rescue phase. Yes, ThAnswer I know we are in hurricane season, but we can't pull the people we need to be witnesses when they are kinda busy right now.

Are you in contact with my DH? Are you deliberately being argumentative and misinterpreting what I'm saying? How much is he paying you? I'll double the offer to do it to him. :)

I understand you cannot pull people out of where they are right now to act as witnesses. But this being hurricane season, and about to get into the historically most active part of the season, no one has all the time in the world to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. The same thing could happen next week. My sister is returning from Daytona a day earlier because there's a developing storm in the Atlantic.

Someone has to come up with a better plan NOW because we cannot afford to have another disaster like Katrina.

Why is this concept so difficult?

One question I have for those who are blaming the President -

Hey, buddy, there's more than one question in there so I'll take them one at a time.

why is it that a disaster such as this in Florida does not have all of the same problems and blame going on?

Because the circumstances and population are different. We did not have the flooding during Charley. We are primarily an area of private homes and are not an urban area.

Different strokes for different folks.


Why is it that Florida is able to respond better, even when Clinton was President, or the previous Bush (and Lawton Chiles, a Democrat, was Governor)? Could it be because the State government is in a better place to handle it because Florida gets hit a lot harder and more often than Louisiana? Because a "trial run" in Florida is for a real hurricane bearing down on it?

Are all things equal? If all things aren't equal, you don't have the same problems, and don't need the same solutions.

Why is it the Floridians don't sit around going "well, the Federal Government should have done more"?

I take offense to this because there thousands of people across the Gulf coast who went looking for their neighbors to see if they could help. There were thousands of people who rescued neighbors, shared food with their neighbors, shared water with their neighbors, etc.

And if you don't think Floridians never echoed the sentiments "well, the Federal Government should have done more", you need to get out more to my little corner of SW Florida.

Why is Louisiana the only state saying that (or not saying that that Federal Government did all they can, like the Governors of Mississippi and Alabama)?

People are complaining in all the states, not just Louisiana. Here's what Trent Lott (R) had to say:

U.S. Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., said that during a one-on-one meeting with Bush, he urged the president to authorize the immediate release of 20,000 trailers sitting idle in Atlanta. Lott said the Federal Emergency Management Agency has refused to ship the trailers until contracts are signed specifying exactly where they'll go in Mississippi.

Lott said FEMA and the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency, MEMA, are having jurisdictional squabbles.

"Mississippians are homeless, hungry and hurting," Lott said in a written statement. "FEMA and MEMA need to be saying 'yes' to Mississippi's needs, not 'no.'"

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1125965340255772.xml&storylist=hurricane

Trent Lott also issued a statement after Bush left Mississippi after his 2nd Katrina visit:

"After a one-on-one meeting with Bush in Poplarville, Lott said: "I am demanding help for the people of Mississippi to recover from the devastation of Hurricane Katrina."
The recovery effort will require "an unprecedented public and private effort that can't be hampered by a process geared toward much lesser disasters," Lott said in a statement issued after Bush left Mississippi."

http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-9-5/32016.html

Btw, ever stop to think the reason why the governors of Mississippi and Alabama aren't complaining because they don't want to rock the boat of the Republican party?

[sodaseller]

Priorities for the Sun King - "laissez faire le deluge"

Link (http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2005-09-07T005629Z_01_N06101601_RTRIDST_0_KATRINA-PHOTOGRAPHS.XML) The U.S. government agency leading the rescue efforts after Hurricane Katrina said on Tuesday it does not want the news media to take photographs of the dead as they are recovered from the flooded New Orleans area.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency, heavily criticized for its slow response to the devastation caused by the hurricane, rejected requests from journalists to accompany rescue boats as they went out to search for storm victims.

Link (http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197) As New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta.
Many of the firefighters, assembled from Utah and throughout the United States by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, thought they were going to be deployed as emergency workers.
Instead, they have learned they are going to be community-relations officers for FEMA, shuffled throughout the Gulf Coast region to disseminate fliers and a phone number: 1-800-621-FEMA.


But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.

[ThAnswr]

Priorities for the Sun King - "laissez faire le deluge"

Link (http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2005-09-07T005629Z_01_N06101601_RTRIDST_0_KATRINA-PHOTOGRAPHS.XML) Link (http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197)

This fiasco gets better and better as time goes on.

Remember, don't make any judgements until all the facts are in.

For some of us, the new facts are reinforcing just how right our first impressions were. ;)

[sodaseller]

A man in charge (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_washington;_ylt=AqESFh0lklDGLwpO2u2soMSyFz 4D;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) At a news conference, Pelosi, D-Calif., said Bush's choice for head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency had "absolutely no credentials."

She related that she had urged Bush at the White House on Tuesday to fire Michael Brown.

"He said 'Why would I do that?'" Pelosi said.

"'I said because of all that went wrong, of all that didn't go right last week.' And he said 'What didn't go right?'"

[Free4Life11]

This fiasco gets better and better as time goes on.

It sure does. Guess Oprah never got the memo about the dead bodies. And to hear the feds talk about dignity makes me cringe....because letting people rot for 5 days shows that you obviously care about their dignity. :rolleyes:

[Free4Life11]

A man in charge (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_washington;_ylt=AqESFh0lklDGLwpO2u2soMSyFz 4D;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

:earseek:

Just remember, the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese.

http://www.aspencountry.com/aspen/assets/product_images/product_lib/31000-31999/31655.jpg

[Tumbleweed]

I will never get over Michael Brown stating that everyone had food and water and
everything was fine on Thursday...while the news stations (all of them!) were showing
the chaos at the convention center.

I will never get over the Mayor of NO screaming a desperate SOS.

I will never get over the Mayor of Hattiesburg, MS, shouting that FEMA had food
and water in his town, but hadn't received a phone call authorizing it to be released
yet.

Our armed forces have been impressive. Even more impressive has been the Coast
Guard...they didn't seem to wait for anybody!

[LoraJ]

Then you obviously haven't seen or read the interviews with tourists that were stranded with no way out, or students at Xavier that were had no way to leave because they didn't have cars. Or the words of people in shelters saying "how were we supposed to leave, we didn't have cars?"

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the mayor even bothered to follow his own evacuation plan.


Can you show me where it says in the evacuation plan where to evacuate tourists too?

I remember when we had to evacuate from our hotel in Ft. Lauderdale last year, we were told if we didn't have friends or family in the area and if we couldn't get out of the city, we would have to go to a local shelter.

[Jaybrad]

You can blame President Bush if you want to. Putting the blame on him is lame. He did not create the hurricane, Mother Nature did!! He did not create the incompetence and corruption that has existed in New Orleans and the State of Louisiana since the Huey Long Administration. Check on how many state and local New Orleans officials (including Govenors and Senators) have been tried and convicted of fraud and corruption over last four decades. I have many family members living in the Slidell and New Orleans area. All left before the storm, several lost their homes yet none of them are pointing fingers at anyone but all will have stories about decades of incompetence and corruption of the Louisiana officials. God bless the victims of the storm, President Bush and God Bless America.

[BuckNaked]

Can you show me where it says in the evacuation plan where to evacuate tourists too?

I don't remember that it says they have to evacuate tourists, I was just demonstrating the fact that they were NOT evacuating everyone.


I remember when we had to evacuate from our hotel in Ft. Lauderdale last year, we were told if we didn't have friends or family in the area and if we couldn't get out of the city, we would have to go to a local shelter.

They don't HAVE local shelters in NOLA, except for the Superdome. So, why weren't people evacuated?

***Edited to add*** I misunderstood something I had read earlier, and I wanted to clairfy here. The Red Cross has no shelters in NOLA, but there are a few run by the local government.

[dcentity2000]

President Bush has a weather machine, hidden deep inside the robot "KARL ROVE" (Klunky And Really Ludicrous Robot made Of Vacant Eggs), which he has been playing around with lately. He apologises for misunderestimating it. ;)



Rich::

[LoraJ]

I don't remember that it says they have to evacuate tourists, I was just demonstrating the fact that they were NOT evacuating everyone.



They don't HAVE local shelters in NOLA, except for the Superdome. So, why weren't people evacuated?

***Edited to add*** I misunderstood something I had read earlier, and I wanted to clairfy here. The Red Cross has no shelters in NOLA, but there are a few run by the local government.


I don't know. Why didn't those in charge at the hotel make sure they were evacuated to these places? Or did they feel they would be safer in the hotel?

the evacuation plans I have seen don't seem to be clear on this stuff.