Shut Up! edited to make sure I am clear... meaning Please STOP the words of blame!

[peacefulgirl]

this is perfectly said:


This is NOT directed at this forum. It is directed at the general public.

I am so upset I just have to write this. Anger and tears is all I have right now.



After seeing the news and especially the one with Ted Koppel, I just want to scream! I saw a clip of him ripping apart the head of FEMA, Mr. Brown. I am so stinking angry I can't take it! That man isn't to blame, politicians are not to blame! Anyone in rescue isn't to blame! MOTHER NATURE is MOTHER NATURE!!!!



HOW DARE people put a political spin on this disaster! THIS IS MOTHER NATURE PEOPLE There in NO ONE who could have prevented or prepared for Katrina!!! Only God Himself!



People are human and being human is nasty some times. These people are in shock and they HAVE NO NORAMAL MENTAL STATE right now. Can you imagine being one of them and hearing rumors of how far worse it is, how far of an area is involved. They are hopeless, they are hurting, and they are mentally gone at this point. And with that comes all the craziness a human is capable of!!!!!!!!!



Having NO HOPE means having no mental capacity for anything. They are desperate for HOPE... FOR THEIR LIVES!!!!!!



The news reports are clouding everything! They are making this worse by feeding the minds of people that we could have prevented this.



Their will be mistakes made, we have NEVER been through this before; we do not know what to do. Mother Nature has dealt us something BEYOND what we can handle with GRACE. WE ARE IN UNKNOWN TERRITORY.



I am so stinking MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Every Political word should be deleted from EVERY BOARD. NOW is not the time to talk BLAME!! Babies are dying, people are sick and desperate and hopeless!!!!!!!!



And the SHOCK and HORROR extends to the helpers are well. Every darn person involved is dealing with decisions they can not make clearly right now. MISTAKES WILL BE MADE!!!!



I am sickened that people are spending time blaming each other when they can be helping and /or praying.



I can only pray right now... I am so sad!



PLEASE STOP WITH THE POLITICS!!!!!!!



I, myself, believe this will have the biggest play in our lives as we know it, beyond finances, but into our faith and our humanness.



I can't be alone here in the shock I am in, more… at our response IN BLAMING than at what happened. It is telling me we are a mess of world, far past what I already believed.

[Rajah]

:cheer2:

[Warrenout]

:banana: :banana: :banana: :cheer2: :cheer2:

[TeresaNJ]

I feel your pain Peacefulgirl. I am in utter horror at how after countless rescuers have risked their lives and are still risking their lives, after the enormous rescue efforts which have already been done in horrendous circumstances, after thousands of people have lost everything, all I am hearing is what a horrible job has been done. I am dumbfounded, speechless, depressed and just feel like crying.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I understand you are upset--but the ball was dropped. It has now been picked back up. I'm glad the media has held the government (not the politicians) accountable.

The President has agreed that the organization and rescue efforts were unacceptable in New Orleans--and said to get it done NOW.

It isn't politics--it is humanity.

[septbride2002]

Here's an idea - turn off the TV, turn off the radio, and turn off the computer. Then you dont' have to listen to everyone else. In the mean time - we are going to go ahead and continue our discussions. No one makes you listen.

~Amanda

[HTH]

I just have one question...

Why did God allow this to happen? I know it was probably for good reason, but I'm just kinda confused and sad right now... but I can't help but feel kinda angry at Him. :guilty:

[Crankyshank]

If you don't like people's choice of outlet (believe me these threads you are complaining of are based in horror, disgust, frustration, outrage, etc...) then by all means put people on ignore, step away from the computer, or stay on the disney planning boards.

Don't tell people to shut up because you don't like their message.

[Planogirl]

I just have one question...

Why did God allow this to happen? I know it was probably for good reason, but I'm just kinda confused and sad right now... but I can't help but feel kinda angry at Him. :guilty:
That's a very good question. And most of us seem to be angry with someone or something right now.

[C.Ann]

Sorry - I can't agree that "Mother Nature" is solely to blame.. The possibility of this type of disaster has been well known and well documented for YEARS..
This was not a "surprise" attack..

The government has dropped the ball - from the top, right on down.. If the news coverage upsets you so much, stop watching it.. Tune in again next week to see how much progress has been made - what the body count is - if the spread of disease has already started.. The 4-day delay in response has created problems that you can't even begin to imagine.. If you think this is bad, you have no idea what lies ahead..

[bicker]

After seeing the news and especially the one with Ted Koppel, I just want to scream!There was a thread posted earlier that went into great detail extolling Mr. Koppel's virtues in this incident. I think the truth is somewhere in-between. Ted Koppel is a great journalist and a human being. It is understandable, under the circumstances, that he let his emotions affect his interview. It wasn't a masterstroke, nor was it a transgression. It was just human, and probably didn't help or hurt much at all.

MOTHER NATURE is MOTHER NATURE!!!! Very true. However, after the essentials are provided and we've gotten over the shock, and have the collective capability of considering this issue rationally instead of emotionally, there needs to be an accounting for why the emergency planning deliberately avoided this specific scenario, even though scientific evidence indicated its likelihood. In the end, the American public, even though it is at fault, will want to sacrifice a scapegoat for our collective lack of vision and willingness to sacrifice something to address a significant probability of a catstrophe like this occurring. I do agree, though, that there are far more pressing concerns right now, and scapegoating can wait for the months to come.

but the ball was dropped. It has now been picked back up.There is no way to know that. It is as likely as not the case that the ball was already moving, and the President was either lucky in his timing or was informed that measures that were already in motion were about to become apparent. In an emergency, it is generally the case that the most constructive help leaders can provide is to stay out of the way of the people doing their jobs as well as they can.

[WDWHound]

I just have one question...

Why did God allow this to happen? I know it was probably for good reason, but I'm just kinda confused and sad right now... but I can't help but feel kinda angry at Him. :guilty:
The only thing I can think of is that suffering, even suffering on such a massive scale, is simply part of our existance. No faith on earth claims otherwise. Why does suffering exist? I don't know. No one does. Why does God allow it? I don't know, but I do know that it is part of the imperfect world we live in.

You say you are angry with God. That makes sense to me and I am sure it also makes sense to God. How could you witness the suffering and not be angry at someone or something. Its OK. Its part of being human.

[Free4Life11]

Sorry - I can't agree that "Mother Nature" is solely to blame.. The possibility of this type of disaster has been well known and well documented for YEARS..
This was not a "surprise" attack..

The government has dropped the ball - from the top, right on down.. If the news coverage upsets you so much, stop watching it.. Tune in again next week to see how much progress has been made - what the body count is - if the spread of disease has already started.. The 4-day delay in response has created problems that you can't even begin to imagine.. If you think this is bad, you have no idea what lies ahead..

Agreed, you said it better than I could.

[pmcpmc]

god allows free choice
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

I just have one question...

Why did God allow this to happen? I know it was probably for good reason, but I'm just kinda confused and sad right now... but I can't help but feel kinda angry at Him. :guilty:

[Caradana]

peacefulgirl, I don't hear people faulting the rescuers. I hear people faulting the leadership, or lack thereof. Politics are an inherent part of life in America. Hope you feel better soon.

[peacefulgirl]

This was not a "surprise" attack..

I can't believe you think that for real. I trust you have been around long enough to hear of hurricanes changing paths and calming before they hit. If you believe this hurricane's power was not a shock...

[peacefulgirl]

I understand you are upset--but the ball was dropped. It has now been picked back up. I'm glad the media has held the government (not the politicians) accountable.

The President has agreed that the organization and rescue efforts were unacceptable in New Orleans--and said to get it done NOW.

It isn't politics--it is humanity.

You are missing the point. Accountability isn't the issue right now!

No one is saying the efforts are acceptable.

[bicker]

I can't believe you think that for real. I trust you have been around long enough to hear of hurricanes changing paths and calming before they hit. If you believe this hurricane's power was not a shock... I think you missed C. Ann's point. There are about four or five threads right now that contain links to news and magazine articles about this exact scenario -- all of which were published months and years ago. There is a government report citing the probability of something like this happening, right there, just as it did. The aftermath we're seeing is eerily similar to that predicted in the reports.

The impact of this hurricane was only a shock for those who didn't have the opportunity to read the reports, or refused to acknowledge the validity of the reports.

[Chicago526]

I just have one question...

Why did God allow this to happen? I know it was probably for good reason, but I'm just kinda confused and sad right now... but I can't help but feel kinda angry at Him. :guilty:

I'll take a stab at it. He didn't, not really.

Humans, above any other being He created, have the power to determine our own destiny. Through our intelligence, we have devised ways through our technology to be aware of danger that is coming our way, and most times, do something about it, even if all we can do is move to higher ground.

Because he gave us free will, to do as we please (animals can only behave according to their own instinct, they can't truly "think" for themselves, for the most part) it is up to us to "save our selves". This is our great gift from Him, but it is also a burden, because if we screw up, we "own" the consequence for our actions (or inactions, as the case may be).

He weeps for us, and answers prayers as He can, but on the whole, this disaster was mostly man made. Not the hurricane itself, of course, but because man built below sea level, in an area prone to hurricanes, with levies not strong enough, and didn't plan or execute a proper evacuation of the area.

So in short, God didn't allow this to happen, Man did. Through centuries of bad choices by a lot of people.

[SplashLover93]

i feel your pain peace girl its politicial debate one after another i mean half of this board is in fighting so ill be right next to ya crying i need some chocolate no make that a bus load of chocolate

[C.Ann]

I can't believe you think that for real. I trust you have been around long enough to hear of hurricanes changing paths and calming before they hit. If you believe this hurricane's power was not a shock...
-----------------------------

And I can't believe that you are so uninformed as to think that New Orleans would NEVER be hit by a hurricane.. It has been discussed for YEARS.. They have known for YEARS that the levees would not survive anything higher than a Cat 3.. I trust you have been around long enough to know that the way to avoid a disaster is to have an EFFECTIVE plan in place PRIOR to the event and have EFFECTIVE leaders that can put those plans into action IMMEDIATELY - not 5 days later..

Do you have a spare tire in your trunk? Or do you wait until you get a flat and then sit by the side of the road trying to flag someone down?

[Nik's Mom]

Sorry, but the ball was dropped by many people. I don't just blame one person, though. I can't say "it's Bush's fault" etc. because I don't believe it is just one person to blame. I think it was the fault of many people here. But the bottom line is that people are now being helped. I'm tired of all of the fighting that's going on here. Come on, people. Let's just pray for the poor people going through hell right now. Let's all stop fighting. :grouphug:

[Nik's Mom]

I'll take a stab at it. He didn't, not really.

Humans, above any other being He created, have the power to determine our own destiny. Through our intelligence, we have devised ways through our technology to be aware of danger that is coming our way, and most times, do something about it, even if all we can do is move to higher ground.

Because he gave us free will, to do as we please (animals can only behave according to their own instinct, they can't truly "think" for themselves, for the most part) it is up to us to "save our selves". This is our great gift from Him, but it is also a burden, because if we screw up, we "own" the consequence for our actions (or inactions, as the case may be).

He weeps for us, and answers prayers as He can, but on the whole, this disaster was mostly man made. Not the hurricane itself, of course, but because man built below sea level, in an area prone to hurricanes, with levies not strong enough, and didn't plan or execute a proper evacuation of the area.

So in short, God didn't allow this to happen, Man did. Through centuries of bad choices by a lot of people.

Well said!

[SplashLover93]

ya why can't we stop fighting its tearing up the dis .......

[Bracho]

Humans that are in pain and feel hopeless need someone to blame for what has happened. The storm hit last weekend but it wasn't until Thursday that "some" of these poor folks even saw anyone from the goverment but these goverment officals were on TV saying how much they are doing long before that...

UNLESS YOU ARE THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PROBLEM, seeing the pain, smelling the dead bodies floating by, hearing the guns going off all night, seeing people being beaten up or raped, no food, no water for days then you can't say they don't have the right to blame the goverment. After all no one in the goverment has a brother, mother, father or a loved one floating in a house... DEAD! If they did.. help would have been there days before it showed up.

I too get mad when I see the media bashing the goverment when they don't do something the media feels they should have but this time... the media is right.. dropped the ball doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. For this country to have something like this happen and for the goverment to react as slowly... and that is the key word "SLOWLY" is insulting and not acceptable. It seems that no one moved until the American people started to get ask what the devil was going on.

I lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the late 70's. You can't understand how wonderful a city this was until you lived there and when I see it on the news today it almost brings tears to my eyes. I see places that I use to eat at, where I lived, some of the places I use to hang out at are all gone, under water and now life there is changed forever.

These boards are a place that folks come to talk about different things, New Orleans being one of them and I understand how you could feel so mad about all the things you are hearing and reading right now... BUT... we all have the right to say and speak our minds and no matter what you or I think.. as long as we live in America, that will never change.

[The DIS Moderator Team]

Hey everybody,

Just a friendly reminder that posts should be respectful of each other. If you aren't sure whether you are following the DIS guidelines then please review them. FAQs & DIS Guidelines (http://www.disboards.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item)

Inappropriate posts will be deleted, including posts bypassing the word filter, personal attacks, baiting, etc.

If you are getting too emotional to use good judgment in posting, please step away, then return when you are more calm and can be rational and respectful when making your points.

Thank you very much,

The DIS Moderator Team

[bicker]

It is important to note that people are "now being helped" most like because efforts that started earlier have finally started paying off, rather than in reaction to anything anyone said or did today.

Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, leading the convoy of National Guard trucks that finally made it to New Orleans, said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already."

[kejoda]

I'll take a stab at it. He didn't, not really.

Humans, above any other being He created, have the power to determine our own destiny. Through our intelligence, we have devised ways through our technology to be aware of danger that is coming our way, and most times, do something about it, even if all we can do is move to higher ground.

Because he gave us free will, to do as we please (animals can only behave according to their own instinct, they can't truly "think" for themselves, for the most part) it is up to us to "save our selves". This is our great gift from Him, but it is also a burden, because if we screw up, we "own" the consequence for our actions (or inactions, as the case may be).

He weeps for us, and answers prayers as He can, but on the whole, this disaster was mostly man made. Not the hurricane itself, of course, but because man built below sea level, in an area prone to hurricanes, with levies not strong enough, and didn't plan or execute a proper evacuation of the area.

So in short, God didn't allow this to happen, Man did. Through centuries of bad choices by a lot of people.


Excelllent post!!!!! :grouphug:

[eclectics]

I can't believe you think that for real. I trust you have been around long enough to hear of hurricanes changing paths and calming before they hit. If you believe this hurricane's power was not a shock...


It was forcasted to be even worse for New Orleans!!!! If it hadn't taken the right turn at the end, it would have been!

[Rajah]

Another thing Micah -- God never said there wouldn't be suffering or loss or death.

God gave enough warning that people, at least most of them, could have gotten out. The warnings were there *years* ago. If people failed to listen to His warnings, that's not God's fault.

:hug:

[Mickey Fliers]

It is important to note that people are "now being helped" most like because efforts that started earlier have finally started paying off, rather than in reaction to anything anyone said or did today.

Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, leading the convoy of National Guard trucks that finally made it to New Orleans, said, "If it was easy, it would have been done already."

ITA! Also, I think it is human nature during these situations to look for "someone" to blame. We are all searching for answers to "how could this happen?". The same thing happened after 9/11. Who knew what when and why wasn't this prevented. For some things, there are never going to be enough answers to make it okay.

I think is irrational to blame the current government for not taking enough precautions. You would have to go back many presidencies and blame them all for not heeding the warnings.

Please. Lets try to help where ever we can.
Be safe!

[peacefulgirl]

-----------------------------

And I can't believe that you are so uninformed as to think that New Orleans would NEVER be hit by a hurricane.. It has been discussed for YEARS.. They have known for YEARS that the levees would not survive anything higher than a Cat 3.. I trust you have been around long enough to know that the way to avoid a disaster is to have an EFFECTIVE plan in place PRIOR to the event and have EFFECTIVE leaders that can put those plans into action IMMEDIATELY - not 5 days later..

Do you have a spare tire in your trunk? Or do you wait until you get a flat and then sit by the side of the road trying to flag someone down?

I never said NEVER anything! I said you can not say you or anyone KNEW that it was a matter of time... for a hurricane or anything else Mother Nature can hand us. Come on! It could happen, but not WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ONE DAY!

If you are so sure you now these things, please feel free to share you KNOWLEDGE when the next one is coming.

[peacefulgirl]

Sorry, but the ball was dropped by many people. I don't just blame one person, though. I can't say "it's Bush's fault" etc. because I don't believe it is just one person to blame. I think it was the fault of many people here. But the bottom line is that people are now being helped. I'm tired of all of the fighting that's going on here. Come on, people. Let's just pray for the poor people going through hell right now. Let's all stop fighting. :grouphug:

I think I said that too in the OP. Thanks for "getting it" :)

[Microcell]

CNN was EDITORIALIZING Tuesday afternoon that help was not coming fast enough, the day after the storm hit. It takes a caravan from Kansas or anywhere that long to get there and establish a command post, seeing as it was overnight Monday that the levees broke. Who knew we would even need military until the police there said that it was out of control on Wednesday.

CNN says something and so many people are like lemmings, "Oh CNN says Bush fell down on the job, so it must be true"!

Think people, for yourselves, and stop blaming anything other than bad luck and mother nature.

I see in other posts that we were obviously unprepared, which is true, but it could have happend in any other presidential year too. Should we blame every president for the past 100 years? There is inherent risk if you build an entire city on a floodplain. We could have built a wall around the thing and it wouldn't be a sure help.

[C.Ann]

I never said NEVER anything! I said you can not say you or anyone KNEW that it was a matter of time... for a hurricane or anything else Mother Nature can hand us. Come on! It could happen, but not WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ONE DAY!

If you are so sure you now these things, please feel free to share you KNOWLEDGE when the next one is coming.
---------------------------

What part of "prepare ahead of time" do you not understand? I guess I can assume you do not carry a spare tire.. Nor do you innoculate your children against deadly diseases.. Nor do you carry insurance on your home.. Nor do you fill your gas tank before you run out of gas.. Nor do you carry health insurance..

Do you know when ANY of those things are going to be needed - if ever? NO - you don't.. Your argument is baseless..

[bicker]

It isn't a matter of knowing when something will happen, but rather a matter of knowing that it will happen, or even that it is likely to happen.

[ericamanda01]

Amen Sister!

[LoraJ]

CNN was EDITORIALIZING Tuesday afternoon that help was not coming fast enough, the day after the storm hit. It takes a caravan from Kansas or anywhere that long to get there and establish a command post, seeing as it was overnight Monday that the levees broke. Who knew we would even need military until the police there said that it was out of control on Wednesday.

CNN says something and so many people are like lemmings, "Oh CNN says Bush fell down on the job, so it must be true"!

Think people, for yourselves, and stop blaming anything other than bad luck and mother nature.


So...
WHen FOX news says something, I guess it must be true.
Do you also support FOX shouting out to all of America someone's home address and falsely accusing them of being a terrorist? Youb actually believe they are better than CNN?

I see more people quoting false info from FOX here than CNN. Like when many posters falsely reported what they heard on FOX that the kidnapped brother and sister were BOTH reported alive and well. When in reality the boy was dead.

I know people who currently work for FOX News or have in the past, trust me, they have you snowed.

[Microcell]

So...
WHen FOX news says something, I guess it must be true.
Youb actually believe they are better than CNN?



I know people who currently work for FOX News or have in the past, trust me, they have you snowed.


1. Oh goodness yes!

2. I am sure a liberal would think so.

[LoraJ]

1. Oh goodness yes!

2. I am sure a liberal would think so.


You didn't answer the real question, you think it was perfectly okay to broadcast that address? You think that gives them integrity?

[peacefulgirl]

---------------------------

What part of "prepare ahead of time" do you not understand? I guess I can assume you do not carry a spare tire.. Nor do you innoculate your children against deadly diseases.. Nor do you carry insurance on your home.. Nor do you fill your gas tank before you run out of gas.. Nor do you carry health insurance..

Do you know when ANY of those things are going to be needed - if ever? NO - you don't.. Your argument is baseless..

C. Ann,

Wrong in everything you said about me. I do not know why you are so argumentative, but I now see you are bating me. Sorry, I just can't go there. I am stopping right here with that.

[Christine]

I never said NEVER anything! I said you can not say you or anyone KNEW that it was a matter of time... for a hurricane or anything else Mother Nature can hand us. Come on! It could happen, but not WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ONE DAY!

If you are so sure you now these things, please feel free to share you KNOWLEDGE when the next one is coming.

peacefulgirl--Maybe I'm not understanding what you just said above. You do realize that we can *see* hurricanes right as they develop? This storm had been brewing for a week or two. They knew DAYS ahead of time that it was headed toward our gulf shores as at least a Category 3-4. They knew it was going to happen one day and they knew for certain at least 3-4 days in advance. Even if it was only, say a Cat 2, it should have been taken more seriously. It's almost like everyone was in denial. But, honestly, you do know that hurricanes are not like tornadoes? We do have more than 30 minutes notice.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

There is no way to know that. It is as likely as not the case that the ball was already moving, and the President was either lucky in his timing or was informed that measures that were already in motion were about to become apparent. In an emergency, it is generally the case that the most constructive help leaders can provide is to stay out of the way of the people doing their jobs as well as they can.

Well--he has effectively said the federal govt didn't do what it was supposed to do. So if that isn't ball dropping, I don't know what is.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You are missing the point. Accountability isn't the issue right now!

No one is saying the efforts are acceptable.

I am not missing the point.

[bicker]

Well--he has effectively said the federal govt didn't do what it was supposed to do. No. He said that the response wasn't acceptable. Based on the planning that was done, "not acceptable" was precisely the expected result from the government doing what it was supposed to do.

So if that isn't ball dropping, I don't know what is.Ball dropping requires there being the foundation for ball holding.

[totalia]

Yes and again. You can't control the weather.

BUT you can control reaction to it. Taking days to respond to desperate chaos when people are suffering and dying is NOT acceptable from ANY gvt no matter who it is.

[dcentity2000]

I see there as being two camps.

1) "This isn't good enough, we deserve better"
2) "I don't want to talk about it"

I plump for one. This situation needs to be critically evaluated so that it does not happen with such delay again.



Rich::

[Christine]

peacefulgirl--

I know you're sick of blame but maybe you should read MossMan's newest post. I think it sums things up well:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=902026

[bicker]

Not acceptable, agreed. Yet, to be expected.

[hugsquared]

I'll take a stab at it. He didn't, not really.

Humans, above any other being He created, have the power to determine our own destiny. Through our intelligence, we have devised ways through our technology to be aware of danger that is coming our way, and most times, do something about it, even if all we can do is move to higher ground.

Because he gave us free will, to do as we please (animals can only behave according to their own instinct, they can't truly "think" for themselves, for the most part) it is up to us to "save our selves". This is our great gift from Him, but it is also a burden, because if we screw up, we "own" the consequence for our actions (or inactions, as the case may be).

He weeps for us, and answers prayers as He can, but on the whole, this disaster was mostly man made. Not the hurricane itself, of course, but because man built below sea level, in an area prone to hurricanes, with levies not strong enough, and didn't plan or execute a proper evacuation of the area.

So in short, God didn't allow this to happen, Man did. Through centuries of bad choices by a lot of people.
I swore I wouldn't continue with this. But I agree with everything you said. It was for the most part perfect. But I also add, and this is purely opinion on my part, but we as humans and as a nation have thumbed our noses at God. We have forced him out of our schools, our government, our lives. Now before anyone gets upset, I know this is not true of every single individual, but as a general rule. We have no need for a God when the times are good because we're smarter and can make decisions for ourselves and who needs a God judging us when we've become a "if it feels good, do it" society. Being the gracious God that he is, he had gently backed away and done exactly what was asked. He doesn't interfer. I in no part think he doesn't care, I can only imagine the heartache he feels seeing his people in so much pain and devistation. But along with free will, comes the burden of getting what you asked for. So how can God let this happen? We demanded it of him. Thats my take on things, right or wrong. Its how I feel.

[sotoalf]

It stands to reason that if you thank God for helping little Jimmy pass his math test, getting your grandma's cancer into remission, and helping your husband find a new job, then you must also blame God for allowing your pet dog Jake to get run over by a car, getting raped unexpectedly, or failing to get that promotion. To believe otherwise is illogical. Life is unfair, irrational, stupid, and absurd, and so is God.

[C.Ann]

C. Ann,

Wrong in everything you said about me. I do not know why you are so argumentative, but I now see you are bating me. Sorry, I just can't go there. I am stopping right here with that.


----------------------------
I'm not "baiting" you.. I am asking you questions that follow a logical train of thought.. The fact that you can not - or will not answer them speaks for itself..

Reality is ugly but it is what it is..

[sodaseller]

I understand you are upset--but the ball was dropped. It has now been picked back up. I'm glad the media has held the government (not the politicians) accountable.

The President has agreed that the organization and rescue efforts were unacceptable in New Orleans--and said to get it done NOW.

It isn't politics--it is humanity.My thoughts exactly

[bicker]

C.Ann-Regarding the content of this thread, I've basically been in agreement with you. However, a "logical" train of thought is a matter of personal opinion, and so pursuing answers from another based on one's own personal "logical" train of thought isn't really all that illuminating. I wouldn't say it that refusing to answer questions that follow someone else's "logical" train of thought says anything significant.

[swilphil]

I admit the media has a tendency to blow things out of proportion. The Janet Jackson Superbowl Scandal comes to mind. People on this board also have a tendency to complain about trivial matters such as pool hopping and refillable mugs, but many lives were lost because government officials didn't plan accordingly, and I do think the politicians are to blame as well. I don't think they dropped the ball intentionally, but the buck does have to stop somewhere.

[bicker]

but the buck does have to stop somewhere.Why? Why is it necessary to have the pound of flesh exacted? :confused3

[C.Ann]

C.Ann-Regarding the content of this thread, I've basically been in agreement with you. However, a "logical" train of thought is a matter of personal opinion, and so pursuing answers from another based on one's own personal "logical" train of thought isn't really all that illuminating. I wouldn't say it that refusing to answer questions that follow someone else's "logical" train of thought says anything significant.
----------------------

Perhaps my wording wasn't exactly as it should be, but would you not agree that it is "logical" to prepare for an event prior to it happening? Logic is the science of reasoning.. Reasoning is the process of arriving at sound conclusions through inferences (a logical conclusion from facts) and deductions.. The "facts" in this instance have been laid out time and time again on this thread as well as many others and still there are those who insist that this hurricane was a "surprise" attack; no one knew that the levees would not withstand anything higher than a Cat 3 hurricane; etc., etc..

If you own a home, the "fact" is there is a possibility that one day it may catch on fire.. From that "fact" you arrive at the conclusion that in order to protect your investment, you purchase insurance.. The same holds true for the other examples I laid out.. If the poster were to agree that it's necessary to prepare for those possibilities ahead of time (not knowing for sure that any or all of them will ever occur), she would also have to concede to the fact that a plan should have been in place for the possibility of this disaster long before it ever happened..

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Why? Why is it necessary to have the pound of flesh exacted? :confused3


I don't know what this means--but I think I can figure it out.

It isn't necessary to find a specific person at fault.

Just make it better for next time.

[eclectics]

Why? Why is it necessary to have the pound of flesh exacted? :confused3

It makes people feel better, I suppose. Accountability of some sort does however seem to be warranted in this case, imho.

[LisaR]

I never said NEVER anything! I said you can not say you or anyone KNEW that it was a matter of time... for a hurricane or anything else Mother Nature can hand us. Come on! It could happen, but not WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ONE DAY!

If you are so sure you now these things, please feel free to share you KNOWLEDGE when the next one is coming.



EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE (well, except YOU) seemed to realize that if a strong hurricane ever hit the area of NOLA, there was a TREMENDOUS chance the city would be under water. It WAS only a matter of time. People have talked about this for years. Where have you been all these years?

Lisa

[bicker]

Perhaps my wording wasn't exactly as it should be, but would you not agree that it is "logical" to prepare for an event prior to it happening?The American electorate has never been accused of being logical. It is not logical for government officials to pursue policies that the American public will reward them with ouster from office -- policies that would never come to fruition anyway because the American people don't have the stomach to face such problems.

no one knew that the levees would not withstand anything higher than a Cat 3 hurricane; etc., etc..Which we both know to be untrue -- it was clear that a strong Cat 4 would break the levees. However, what good is that knowledge without the fortitude to do something with that information?

[C.Ann]

The American electorate has never been accused of being logical. It is not logical for government officials to pursue policies that the American public will reward them with ouster from office -- policies that would never come to fruition anyway because the American people don't have the stomach to face such problems.

Which we both know to be untrue -- it was clear that a strong Cat 4 would break the levees. However, what good is that knowledge without the fortitude to do something with that information?
------------------

Ahhh.. Now I see what you were saying.. I was referring to "my" logical train of thought and the "posters" logical train of thought..

I agree with what you have said above..

[chobie]

ya why can't we stop fighting its tearing up the dis .......

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

Since it concerns you so much perhaps you could refrain from posting on that political thread you love so much. You could also try not jumping into the middle of some of these debates you so deplore. Or, maybe it's not the fighting that bothers you so much, but the fact that not everyone shares your political viewpoint...

[swilphil]

Why? Why is it necessary to have the pound of flesh exacted? :confused3

The saying "The Buck Stops Here" has nothing to do with a pound of flesh. It has more to do with someone being in charge. On more than one occasion President Truman referred to the desk sign in public statements. For example, in an address at the National War College in 1952, Truman said, "You know, it's easy for the Monday morning quarterback to say what the coach should have done, after the game is over. But when the decision is up before you -- and here on my desk I have a motto which says "The Buck Stops Here" -- the decision has to be made."

I'm not saying the obvious breakdown was our President's fault either. The mayor of NO and the governor are also accountable.

[bicker]

As if any one, or even three, officials could have personally built two additional layers of levees, etc.?

Face it: The fault, if there must be fault, is borne by all Americans, equally.

[floridaminnie]

----------------------

Perhaps my wording wasn't exactly as it should be, but would you not agree that it is "logical" to prepare for an event prior to it happening? Logic is the science of reasoning.. Reasoning is the process of arriving at sound conclusions through inferences (a logical conclusion from facts) and deductions.. The "facts" in this instance have been laid out time and time again on this thread as well as many others and still there are those who insist that this hurricane was a "surprise" attack; no one knew that the levees would not withstand anything higher than a Cat 3 hurricane; etc., etc..

If you own a home, the "fact" is there is a possibility that one day it may catch on fire.. From that "fact" you arrive at the conclusion that in order to protect your investment, you purchase insurance.. The same holds true for the other examples I laid out.. If the poster were to agree that it's necessary to prepare for those possibilities ahead of time (not knowing for sure that any or all of them will ever occur), she would also have to concede to the fact that a plan should have been in place for the possibility of this disaster long before it ever happened..

And just like if your house is on fire, you leave it. You don't wait for the fire department to show up to show you how to get out.

when the city of NO went through this senerio this past year, 30% of the residents said they would refuse to leave if there was a manatory evacuation. The city started evacuation way too late. They also made a HUGE mistake not busing the people out before the storm and instead putting them in the dome. I said this before the hurricane hit.

[C.Ann]

And just like if your house is on fire, you leave it. You don't wait for the fire department to show up to show you how to get out.

when the city of NO went through this senerio this past year, 30% of the residents said they would refuse to leave if there was a manatory evacuation. The city started evacuation way too late. They also made a HUGE mistake not busing the people out before the storm and instead putting them in the dome. I said this before the hurricane hit.
------------------
I agree with you 100%.. Those who "could" leave should have.. Many couldn't.. Evacuation was started WAY too late..

However, we have a poster screaming "Shut up!!" because she is convinced that "Mother Nature" bears full responsibility for this disaster - that there was no reason to prepare ahead of time - that no one had any idea that a hurricane would hit NO and what the disastrous results would be.. Sorry, but I can't stop shaking my head over that one...

[Jen D]

Ted Koppel's fair and righteous grilling of the head of FEMA was not about not shoring up the levees or disaster prevention... it was about their slowness and downright incompetence in getting aid to the dying and desperate in New Orleans.

Thank God we have a media to show these images and ask these questions... if the cameras weren't there those poor people at the Convention Center still might be waiting for buses.

Or is leaving them there without aid God's will?

[floridaminnie]

I"m from the Tampa area. When Charlie was suppose to hit last year, we were evacuting days ahead of time. It was done in a timely matter. Downtown Tampa was a ghost town and the power and everything was shut down. Worse cause senerios, which was suppose to happen, it would have been ALL gone. I went through Hugo in SC and will NEVER go through that again. I left town to Alabama. My house would have been gone. Even though we are "inland", we aren't close to being "inland" enough to be safe.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Voluntary evacuations started by Saturday morning. The city didn't listen. Evidently--the Mayor didn't have the legal authority to require a mandatory evacuation---I haven't researched it--but he did make the statement that he would find a way to make it mandatory, which indicates that he didn't have the authority to do it.


Not excusing it---but evacuations don't usually start until you hit the 48 hour mark b/c of when the Hurricane Watch/Warnings are issued.

I'm not certain they had a proper egress plan where they would know how long it would take them to empty a city.

[floridaminnie]

Ted Koppel's fair and righteous grilling of the head of FEMA was not about not shoring up the levees or disaster prevention... it was about their slowness and downright incompetence in getting aid to the dying and desperate in New Orleans.

Thank God we have a media to show these images and ask these questions... if the cameras weren't there those poor people at the Convention Center still might be waiting for buses.

Or is leaving them there without aid God's will?

The problem with the media is that they are putting their spin to it. They kept reporting all day that no busses were leaving NO, but then how did the 20,000 plus people make to Houston? They keep showing the same pics over and over again. It makes my stomach sick seeing those pics and my heart breaks, but they aren't showing the whole picture. BTW I don't get cable so I'm not seeing what's on the cable channel just what's on the news and online at CNN.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I"m from the Tampa area. When Charlie was suppose to hit last year, we were evacuting days ahead of time. It was done in a timely matter. Downtown Tampa was a ghost town and the power and everything was shut down. Worse cause senerios, which was suppose to happen, it would have been ALL gone. I went through Hugo in SC and will NEVER go through that again. I left town to Alabama. My house would have been gone. Even though we are "inland", we aren't close to being "inland" enough to be safe.


I went through Hugo and they cut the power too.

For Jeanne and Frances---they just wait for it to go out. I always thought that was weird to not cut power. 2 buildings burned...that might have otherwise not have been destroyed with that simple preemptive measure.

[spipek]

I feel your pain as well. No one person is to blame. This country has never had such a terrible natural disaster of this proportion. It is sickening and very very sad. I wish the Fairy God Mother could fix this one with her wand but sadly she can't. Peace of all of us.

[jordgubben]

One has to debate as to whether or not the throw one's hat into this ring but I have to say I feel compelled to do so.

I'm not going to elaborate on the response other than to say I consider the timelyness (or rather, significant lack there of) a disgrace.

I wanted to point out an article I stumbled upon regarding the levees. It would appear that a significant project to improve the levees and the protection of NOLA was undertaken by the Army Corps of Engineering only to have the funding nearly stripped away entirely during the final, crucial phase of the project. It seems the money was needed elsewhere. I give anyone one guess....

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

[drakethib]

I am sorry but someone has dropped the ball big time on this one.

I was in the Louisiana National Guard when Andrew hit in the early 90's and they had us activated and positioned where the eye of the storm hit (Morgan City, LA) many hours before the Hurricane hit.

The Governor at the time (Mike Foster) working with FEMA and the National Guard had the foresight to have provisions, generators, fuel trucks stationed strategically throughout Southeast and Central Louisiana.

FEMA had their act together and didn’t spend more time planning then doing. They got stuff done.

Please don’t get me wrong by thinking I comparing Hurricane Andrew to Katrina. Katrina is much worse then Andrew many times over.

I admire the brave souls who are working on this effort, but the leadership for the most part has failed miserably.

There are certain politicians such as Mayor Nagin and Sheriff Harry Lee who have expressed their disgust and they are 100% complete.

I was really ticked off today when I watched the press conference and saw the Governor dressed to the hilt in the middle of all the devastation.

New Orleans will rebuild and move on to be the great city it once was.

As Americans it is in our blood to do so.

Prayers to our brothers and sisters who are suffering.

[Jamesbyr]

Yes, God was to blame. That takes it off Bush's back. Who thought that one up? The OP??? Get real, everyone.

[drakethib]

It stands to reason that if you thank God for helping little Jimmy pass his math test, getting your grandma's cancer into remission, and helping your husband find a new job, then you must also blame God for allowing your pet dog Jake to get run over by a car, getting raped unexpectedly, or failing to get that promotion. To believe otherwise is illogical. Life is unfair, irrational, stupid, and absurd, and so is God.


Respectfully disagree.

[bicker]

Ted Koppel's fair and righteous grilling of the head of FEMA was not about not shoring up the levees or disaster prevention... it was about their slowness and downright incompetence in getting aid to the dying and desperate in New Orleans.As if Ted Koppel could have done a better job with the resources the American people have given the federal government to work with? No, sorry. Government is a handy scapegoat, but as somone else said earlier, when you point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

There doens't have to be fault, folks, at least not in the form of individual incompetence by a person or agency. The extent to which we were prepared for this is a reflection of our society's collective sentiment about how much resourcing we should devote to such advance planning.

[wvrevy]

I'm sorry, but the question has to be asked: Would the response have been handled better if Bush had appointed somebody other than a cronie to run FEMA ? Somebody with, maybe, some experience in managing this kind of thing ? Bill Maher brought this up on his show last night...Hire your cronies to be Ambassador to Luxembourg all you want...every politician does. But hiring an old friend with no experience to run one of the most important federal agencies in the entire government ?

As to the budget...where have the billions gone for "homeland security" ? If this had been a massive terrorist attack - without the benefit of days of warning and mass evacuations already taking place - would it still have been handled so poorly ? Just how much incompetance are you prepared to accept from this administration ?

[padams]

Do you really think any other administration would have handled it differently or better? I am not backing up the current administration but I don't believe the democrats would be any better at handling this situation. The problems of slow response have to do with slow moving bureaucratic agencies that are more accustomed to turf battles than working together.

[wvrevy]

Do you really think any other administration would have handled it differently or better? I am not backing up the current administration but I don't believe the democrats would be any better at handling this situation. The problems of slow response have to do with slow moving bureaucratic agencies that are more accustomed to turf battles than working together.
But that's just it...The Homeland Security department and FEMA are not supposed to operate as slow moving bureaucracies. They are supposed to be always prepared for disasters to take place, particularly the Homeland Security department. Answer honestly: does their handling of this situation really inspire a lot of confidence in how they would handle a massive terrorist attack on American soil ?

And again, the head of FEMA is not the place to install a lifetime friend with no experience. As I said, every administration engages in some level of cronyism. But FEMA ?!?

As for how other administratinos would have done...Yes, I think any of the last several administrations would have done a better job than this.

[Jen D]

As if Ted Koppel could have done a better job with the resources the American people have given the federal government to work with? No, sorry. Government is a handy scapegoat, but as somone else said earlier, when you point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

There doens't have to be fault, folks, at least not in the form of individual incompetence by a person or agency. The extent to which we were prepared for this is a reflection of our society's collective sentiment about how much resourcing we should devote to such advance planning.

So Ted Koppel shouldn't question FEMA until he has personally had to do Michael Brown's job himself? Ted Koppel is doing his job, which is to investigate and inform the way our government is carrying out our business. If he didn't ask these questions, how could we possibly be informed enough to have a collective sentiment one way or the other? We have a right to demand accountability and answers.

There was widespread support for the creation of a Department of Homeland Security, and one of their jobs was to figure out planning for dealing with a large scale catastrophe like this one. So I would hardly say that the Amerian people don't support advance disaster planning.

At a certain level the voters do sit back and trust the officials they have elected... and trust will recognize the dangers of disaster and address and fund them. That they will approve and appoint heads of emergency management that are experienced in disaster relief.

Soul searching is certainly due for everyone in America after this tragedy, but to say we should sit back and not question the incomptence with which this has been handled is just absurd.

[Christine]

Do you really think any other administration would have handled it differently or better? I am not backing up the current administration but I don't believe the democrats would be any better at handling this situation. The problems of slow response have to do with slow moving bureaucratic agencies that are more accustomed to turf battles than working together.


I don't think this is a "if the Dems were in this wouldn't have happened" argument, even though some might pull into down to that level. There is no way to KNOW if another administration would have handled it better. Maybe the would have, maybe they wouldn't. The point is: THIS administration is not handling it well. There have been several examples shown in this thread and others of previous administrations (both Rep and Dem) handling other disasters with much more efficiency. I have been lucky to never have been personally involved in anything like this (except for working in D.C. during 9/11) but I cannot ever remember such a slow response as this one.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

But that's just it...The Homeland Security department and FEMA are not supposed to operate as slow moving bureaucracies. They are supposed to be always prepared for disasters to take place, particularly the Homeland Security department. Answer honestly: does their handling of this situation really inspire a lot of confidence in how they would handle a massive terrorist attack on American soil ?

And again, the head of FEMA is not the place to install a lifetime friend with no experience. As I said, every administration engages in some level of cronyism. But FEMA ?!?

As for how other administratinos would have done...Yes, I think any of the last several administrations would have done a better job than this.

But absolutely--always prepared and moving quickly are supposed to be synonomous with FEMA and HS.


(Wasn't Clinton president in 1992 for Andrew...I saw on another discussion thread--a resident who was there for that...said that response was a joke then too. I don't think anyone admin. can be blamed for it--but the admin can rise to the occasion and FIX it--the Pres isn't happy in the least!)

[WDWBetsy]

Do you really think any other administration would have handled it differently or better? I am not backing up the current administration but I don't believe the democrats would be any better at handling this situation. The problems of slow response have to do with slow moving bureaucratic agencies that are more accustomed to turf battles than working together.

Well, I expect a leader to see the same footage I'm seeing on CNN - of the people begging for water, food, security. And where was he? Licking his fingers while eating cake with John McCain and playing a guitar for a VJ day event. He could have cancelled those prior engagements and rushed to his office (hopefully in Washington!) to start barking orders so people could get the basic needs. I expect him to do more than fly over the area or wait 5 days later to go to a disaster area - hugging and shaking hands. This does not comfort me.

It burns me up that so many of our resources - and soldiers - are tied up in a war that was based on lies. And don't get me wrong - I fully support our troops. But I do not support the war.

I honor those who are working countless hours and risking their own lives trying to save those affected by Hurricane Katrina. I just feel bad that they did not (and still do not) have the communication tools that would have helped.

People need to hold our government accountable. I will not shut up. Dissent is patriotic.

[LoraJ]

But absolutely--always prepared and moving quickly are supposed to be synonomous with FEMA and HS.


(Wasn't Clinton president in 1992 for Andrew...I saw on another discussion thread--a resident who was there for that...said that response was a joke then too. I don't think anyone admin. can be blamed for it--but the admin can rise to the occasion and FIX it--the Pres isn't happy in the least!)


Clinton didn't take office until Jan of 1993.

[bicker]

So Ted Koppel shouldn't question FEMA until he has personally had to do Michael Brown's job himself?I didn't say that. What I said is that we shouldn't assume that Koppel's questioning was a valid indictment.

Ted Koppel is doing his job, which is to investigate and inform the way our government is carrying out our business.I doubt Koppel would consider himself suited to report on an "investigation" this soon after the catastrophe. Koppel knows that to call something an investigation, a significant amount of time and work is necessary, and that has not yet taken place. We're talking about good television, here, NOT an "investigation".

If he didn't ask these questions, how could we possibly be informed enough to have a collective sentiment one way or the other?A collective sentiment based on the short-term emotional reaction to a catastrophe is not a suitable basis on which to consider ourselves informed enough for anything.

We have a right to demand accountability and answers.Yet, we have an obligation to be comprehensive and fair in our inquiry. Fairness dictates that we don't hold individuals responsible for doing the best that could reasonably be expected given the resources made available to them.

There was widespread support for the creation of a Department of Homeland Security, and one of their jobs was to figure out planning for dealing with a large scale catastrophe like this one. So I would hardly say that the Amerian people don't support advance disaster planning.You'd be mistaken then. The Department of Homeland Security was created to better support the fight against terrorism, and that focus was very likely responsible for the degradation of (or at least an arresting of the ascendancy of) our readiness to fight against natural disasters. What I was referring to was the American public's reticence to incur sacrifice in the interest of advance planning for a catastrophe that is either not assured or for which the timeline is not definitively accepted by a vast majority. We tend to react, not plan ahead.

Soul searching is certainly due for everyone in America after this tragedy, but to say we should sit back and not question the incomptence with which this has been handled is just absurd.However even your statement shows your bias -- you have prejudged that there was "incompetence" without there being anything close to a reasonable investigation, perhaps solely because you cannot believe that there is another possible explanation for things going so badly.

Bad things happen, and there isn't always fault, at least not in the sense that many people are seeking it at this time.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Clinton didn't take office until Jan of 1993.


oops! Well then.

[Jen D]

The Department of Homeland Security was created to better support the fight against terrorism, and that focus was very likely responsible for the degradation of (or at least an arresting of the ascendancy of) our readiness to fight against natural disasters.

Well, we certainly agree on that.

Brian, you've made your position a little clearer to me now, but I still can't agree that the time for digging and questioning decisions being made now should not be questioned now. And if it appears that we can turn around the management of this crisis, while it is unfolding, that should happen. The benefit of hindsight is not available... these assessments need to be made, now.

If we try to turn around the mistakes being made now, we might have a chance to save more lives. We can't wait until the dust settles for the publication of a Hurricane Katrina Commission Report.

And again, I agree there will be plenty of blame to go around when that happens.

[Not so Dumbo]

I just have one question...

Why did God allow this to happen? I know it was probably for good reason, but I'm just kinda confused and sad right now... but I can't help but feel kinda angry at Him. :guilty:

For reasons we will never fully understand until he can explain it to us in Heaven. Keep in mind though, He loves us and has excellent reason behind his actions.

[bicker]

If we try to turn around the mistakes being made now, we might have a chance to save more lives.I believe is a delusion to think that reporters, or even elected officials, can have any significant impact on emergency response. As far as anyone knows (and this is the point), the emergency responders were responding as expediciously as their training, preparations and available resources allowed. It took time because there wasn't sufficient advance planning (for reasons we can discuss later).

You cannot make water and a frozen chicken into chicken soup any faster by yelling at it. With the chicken, at least, it cannot hear you so it won't get distracted from what it's trying to become. With emergency response, yelling at it surely can make the response slower, thereby costing lives.

For reasons we will never fully understand until he can explain it to us in Heaven.The answer is not in the stars but in ourselves. Hurricans are forces of Nature, something which Americans in general often don't adequately respect.

[NewEnglandDisney]

No one thinks the goverment is responsible for the hurricane.

What they are responsible for is the response.

It's unfathomable to me that some people believe the response was appropriate and timely - perhaps if they had been the ones with babies, children, and elderly people stuck on rooftops who DIED days after the hurricane was over, I bet the tune would be very, very different.

N.E.D.

[bicker]

No one believe the response was "appropriate and timely." That's a red herring. The point is that the response was directly commensurate with the resources the American people, though their elected leaders, decided to have available in case of catastophe. As far as anyone knows, there is nothing anyone did wrong this week.

[drakethib]

But absolutely--always prepared and moving quickly are supposed to be synonomous with FEMA and HS.


(Wasn't Clinton president in 1992 for Andrew...I saw on another discussion thread--a resident who was there for that...said that response was a joke then too. I don't think anyone admin. can be blamed for it--but the admin can rise to the occasion and FIX it--the Pres isn't happy in the least!)

No he wasn't.

But what I will tell your from is that FEMA and the governor had their act togther on ANdrew.

See my previous post.

[floridaminnie]

No he wasn't.

But what I will tell your from is that FEMA and the governor had their act togther on ANdrew.

See my previous post.

On dateline last week, they would disaggree with that greatly. It took FEMA several days for FEMA to arrive according to Dateline.

[brittsmum1998]

Very well said Peaceful Girl....I couldn't agree more. What continues to frustrate me are the people that WOULD NOT leave due to pets or whatever. I will never understand (hopefully) what it is like to HAVE to leave your home, but I do think common sense should prevail. I am now worried for the families who's loved ones have to go into that area to forcibly rescue people that are still refusing to leave! I guess I dn't understand why we continue to point fingers at what is the worst mood of Mother Nature.

[patiruss]

To Peacegirl....Boy do I agree with you. I responded with the following on another post, but it seems to make more sense for this thread.

Why does someONE have to be to blame? Could it be that we are facing a disaster of a magnitutde beyond our resources. When this is all over, there will be time to analyze what went wrong and how to fix it. I know I'm not very articulate and I wish could express my opinions more clearly. This morning however I read an article in Newsweek that truely says what a lot of us need to hear. I am posting one paragraph and a link to the full article. I know that that the paragraph can be taken out of context, so please take the time to read it fully. In my opinion, the author, Rabbi Marc Gellman is a very wise man.

"However, in the end I simply refuse to blame the rescuers more than the storm that caused the need for rescue. It is not merely naive but profoundly foolish to have expected that 100,000 troops with water and food and patrol vehicles and helicopters and busses and trains and showers and shelters and electricity and bulldozers and levee-repair crews and mobile kitchens and tent cities and psychological services and identity checkers and employment services and construction crews and electrical linemen and mechanical and structural and civil engineers and architects and water-control experts and animal-removal experts could have all been set up somewhere out of the storm path but close enough to swoop in and pluck the soaking victims out of harm’s way despite the collapsed bridges and levees the minute the winds stopped blowing and minute the tide subsided without missing a heartbeat. Where have we gleaned the arrogant belief that if we suffer from a natural disaster, it must always somebody’s fault? We must all face the grim but inescapable fact that there are some times and some places where the need you face is simply greater than the resources you have at that moment or even days after that moment or even weeks after that moment, and thus agonizing decisions must be made. Triage is a way to make those decisions on the allocation of scarce lifesaving resources that does not stop the tears, but at least it stops the feeling that you did not just throw up your hands and give up."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9178815/site/newsweek/

[drakethib]

On dateline last week, they would disaggree with that greatly. It took FEMA several days for FEMA to arrive according to Dateline.


I disagree with Dateline.

I was in the Louisiana National Guard and I was one of the soldiers activated before the storm hit. The governor at the time (Mike Foster) had the foresight to get things in order before it was too late.

We were there and had generators for the hospitals, a few dump trucks ready to haul of debris in the roads, the Red Cross was on site to hand out food and water.

24 to 30 hours after it hit, Southeast LA had people and equipment literally swarming through the region from all agencies mentioned.

Again, Andrew was no where near the size and power of Katrina and the flooding did not occur, but I can assure you as one of the first people on site before the eye of the storm hit, it was much more organized and the agencies were much more prepared.

Now it seems that more people are trying to plan what to do, then actually trying to do something. Thank God for people like Mayor Nagin and Sheriff Harry Lee or I honestly feel that people would still be waiting for help.

BTW, before someone start saying this is a politcal deal, I am a Bush supporter and voted for him.

Someone dropped the ball on this one and did so bad.

With that being said, there were many people who did have the means to get out and didn't which probably would have made the rescure efforts somewhat easier (My parent live about 40 minutes from New Orleans and I begged them leave and come to my house and the wouldn't. They are fine and still hard headed and suffered no damage), but I stand by my views saying that response time in this event was horrible.

[totalia]

Why does someONE have to be to blame? Could it be that we are facing a disaster of a magnitutde beyond our resources. When this is all over, there will be time to analyze what went wrong and how to fix it. I know I'm not very articulate and I wish could express my opinions more clearly. This morning however I read an article in Newsweek that truely says what a lot of us need to hear. I am posting one paragraph and a link to the full article. I know that that the paragraph can be taken out of context, so please take the time to read it fully. In my opinion, the author, Rabbi Marc Gellman is a very wise man.

Someone does have to be to blame for the extremely lengthy time of response. No one is responsible for a hurricane hitting. Nature is nature. But someone is to blame for people sitting on their rooftops dying of hunger and thirst and suffering disease while the rescue workers STILL havent come to save them from this hell on earth.

Someone was to blame for the response time. Its the response time thats the problem.

[auntpolly]

Very well said Peaceful Girl....I couldn't agree more. What continues to frustrate me are the people that WOULD NOT leave due to pets or whatever.

Or whatever? You do understand that most couldn't leave because they don't have cars and there was no transportation?

[patiruss]

Someone does have to be to blame for the extremely lengthy time of response. No one is responsible for a hurricane hitting. Nature is nature. But someone is to blame for people sitting on their rooftops dying of hunger and thirst and suffering disease while the rescue workers STILL havent come to save them from this hell on earth.

Someone was to blame for the response time. Its the response time thats the problem.


One question...did you read the whole article?

[C.Ann]

Or whatever? You do understand that most couldn't leave because they don't have cars and there was no transportation?
-----------------

And the unspoken thoughts of many are that it's their "own fault".. They should have gone to Harvard, have/had amazingly successful careers, and 6.2 million dollars in their retirement accounts..

[auntpolly]

-----------------

And the unspoken thoughts of many are that it's their "own fault".. They should have gone to Harvard, have/had amazingly successful careers, and 6.2 million dollars in their retirement accounts..


"We're so sorry we're poor!!!!! We know it's our own fault, but could you please just help us get the @#$%* out of here!!!!?????"

[C.Ann]

"We're so sorry we're poor!!!!! We know it's our own fault, but could you please just help us get the @#$%* out of here!!!!?????"
---------------------

"We'll think about it and get back to you after we do a fly-by.."

[Planogirl]

I'm one who has ranted about the slow response time. I never did so with the intent of blaming anyone, I just wished that SOMEONE would get in there and do something. And it made me angry when no one did for so long.

I'm sure that I'm not alone in being angry. The whole situation just doesn't make any sense and like it or not, President Bush is involved.

[WDWBetsy]

I'm one who has ranted about the slow response time. I never did so with the intent of blaming anyone, I just wished that SOMEONE would get in there and do something. And it made me angry when no one did for so long.

I'm sure that I'm not alone in being angry. The whole situation just doesn't make any sense and like it or not, President Bush is involved.

You're absolutely right. As the days go by - I see more and more how much his mistakes are costing us.

I posted this about the FEMA (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=9813153&postcount=24) situation on another thread. Hopefully people will start understanding how misjudgements by our president - including appointing his buddies - are costing lives.

[peacefulgirl]

To Peacegirl....Boy do I agree with you. I responded with the following on another post, but it seems to make more sense for this thread.

Why does someONE have to be to blame? Could it be that we are facing a disaster of a magnitutde beyond our resources. When this is all over, there will be time to analyze what went wrong and how to fix it. I know I'm not very articulate and I wish could express my opinions more clearly. This morning however I read an article in Newsweek that truely says what a lot of us need to hear. I am posting one paragraph and a link to the full article. I know that that the paragraph can be taken out of context, so please take the time to read it fully. In my opinion, the author, Rabbi Marc Gellman is a very wise man.

"However, in the end I simply refuse to blame the rescuers more than the storm that caused the need for rescue. It is not merely naive but profoundly foolish to have expected that 100,000 troops with water and food and patrol vehicles and helicopters and busses and trains and showers and shelters and electricity and bulldozers and levee-repair crews and mobile kitchens and tent cities and psychological services and identity checkers and employment services and construction crews and electrical linemen and mechanical and structural and civil engineers and architects and water-control experts and animal-removal experts could have all been set up somewhere out of the storm path but close enough to swoop in and pluck the soaking victims out of harm’s way despite the collapsed bridges and levees the minute the winds stopped blowing and minute the tide subsided without missing a heartbeat. Where have we gleaned the arrogant belief that if we suffer from a natural disaster, it must always somebody’s fault? We must all face the grim but inescapable fact that there are some times and some places where the need you face is simply greater than the resources you have at that moment or even days after that moment or even weeks after that moment, and thus agonizing decisions must be made. Triage is a way to make those decisions on the allocation of scarce lifesaving resources that does not stop the tears, but at least it stops the feeling that you did not just throw up your hands and give up."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9178815/site/newsweek/

To patiruss, you have captured exactly what I wanted to say in this above. Some things are just BIGGER than we are, Americans are not magic. Thanks for story's link.
pg

[Planogirl]

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere but it's an interesting article. I won't post the whole thing because it's long but a portion. The article is at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/

MR. RUSSERT: And we are back.

Jefferson Parish President Broussard, let me start with you. You just heard the director of Homeland Security's explanation of what has happened this last week. What is your reaction?

MR. AARON BROUSSARD: We have been abandoned by our own country. Hurricane Katrina will go down in history as one of the worst storms ever to hit an American coast, but the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina will go down as one of the worst abandonments of Americans on American soil ever in U.S. history. I am personally asking our bipartisan congressional delegation here in Louisiana to immediately begin congressional hearings to find out just what happened here. Why did it happen? Who needs to be fired? And believe me, they need to be fired right away, because we still have weeks to go in this tragedy. We have months to go. We have years to go. And whoever is at the top of this totem pole, that totem pole needs to be chain-sawed off and we've got to start with some new leadership.

It's not just Katrina that caused all these deaths in New Orleans here. Bureaucracy has committed murder here in the greater New Orleans area, and bureaucracy has to stand trial before Congress now. It's so obvious. FEMA needs more congressional funding. It needs more presidential support. It needs to be a Cabinet-level director. It needs to be an independent agency that will be able to fulfill its mission to work in partnership with state and local governments around America. FEMA needs to be empowered to do the things it was created to do. It needs to come somewhere, like New Orleans, with all of its force immediately, without red tape, without bureaucracy, act immediately with common sense and leadership, and save lives. Forget about the property. We can rebuild the property. It's got to be able to come in and save lives.

We need strong leadership at the top of America right now in order to accomplish this and to-- reconstructing FEMA.

MR. RUSSERT: Mr. Broussard, let me ask--I want to ask--should...

MR. BROUSSARD: You know, just some quick examples...

MR. RUSSERT: Hold on. Hold on, sir. Shouldn't the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of New Orleans bear some responsibility? Couldn't they have been much more forceful, much more effective and much more organized in evacuating the area?

MR. BROUSSARD: Sir, they were told like me, every single day, "The cavalry's coming," on a federal level, "The cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming." I have just begun to hear the hoofs of the cavalry. The cavalry's still not here yet, but I've begun to hear the hoofs, and we're almost a week out.

Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis.

But I want to thank Governor Blanco for all she's done and all her leadership. She sent in the National Guard. I just repaired a breach on my side of the 17th Street canal that the secretary didn't foresee, a 300-foot breach. I just completed it yesterday with convoys of National Guard and local parish workers and levee board people. It took us two and a half days working 24/7. I just closed it.

MR. RUSSERT: All right.

MR. BROUSSARD: I'm telling you most importantly I want to thank my public employees...

MR. RUSSERT: All right.

MR. BROUSSARD: ...that have worked 24/7. They're burned out, the doctors, the nurses. And I want to give you one last story and I'll shut up and let you tell me whatever you want to tell me. The guy who runs this building I'm in, emergency management, he's responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, "Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?" And he said, "Yeah, Mama, somebody's coming to get you. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday." And she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night.

MR. RUSSERT: Mr. President...

MR. BROUSSARD: Nobody's coming to get us. Nobody's coming to get us. The secretary has promised. Everybody's promised. They've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences. For God sakes, shut up and send us somebody.

[peacefulgirl]

MR. BROUSSARD: Nobody's coming to get us. Nobody's coming to get us. The secretary has promised. Everybody's promised. They've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences. For God sakes, shut up and send us somebody

after reading that whole thing, it came back to what I said here in the OP. The last sentence says it all...

[MrsNick]

after reading that whole thing, it came back to what I said here in the OP. The last sentence says it all...


The sentiment in the last sentence was from the culmination of the emotions and events he described earlier in the post. You are taking the last sentence out of context. He made that last statement out of frustration from lack of response and incompetence from FEMA.

That being said, I am 100% completely behind all of the rescuers who have been doing a PHENOMENAL job under the circumstances. God be with them.

Now, if only the people in charge were as committed to this rescue as the people in the trenches are...

[brittsmum1998]

I realize there are MANY people who did not have the financial means to get out. I also realize even w/out the $$ many chose to go to the dome. At that time noone realized how dangerous the dome would be. I also hear that alot of people would NOT leave due to their pets, it was all they owned etc. Even today a week after the devastation the Nat'l Guard is STILL having problems talking people into leaving!! Some of these people have small children. What can they possibly be thinking??? I'm a pet lover also but there would not be a second thought if it came to my life or the life of my family before any pets. I'm watching it live, there is no denying it. I don't understand where there common sense is. And common sense is not something you can buy!! All I know is I would be darn proud and extremely worried ifmy DH or loved one was in there trying to TALK people out of leaving their homes. I wish people would stop!! trying to make this a black/white ....financial issue. After thinking about it....I guess it is partly a financial issue, alot of people were waiting till the end of the month for their checks...again... is it money or life? :confused3

[WDWBetsy]

I realize there are MANY people who did not have the financial means to get out. I also realize even w/out the $$ many chose to go to the dome. At that time noone realized how dangerous the dome would be. I also hear that alot of people would NOT leave due to their pets, it was all they owned etc. Even today a week after the devastation the Nat'l Guard is STILL having problems talking people into leaving!! Some of these people have small children. What can they possibly be thinking??? I'm a pet lover also but there would not be a second thought if it came to my life or the life of my family before any pets. I'm watching it live, there is no denying it. I don't understand where there common sense is. And common sense is not something you can buy!! All I know is I would be darn proud and extremely worried ifmy DH or loved one was in there trying to TALK people out of leaving their homes. I wish people would stop!! trying to make this a black/white ....financial issue. After thinking about it....I guess it is partly a financial issue, alot of people were waiting till the end of the month for their checks...again... is it money or life? :confused3

Many may be traumatized and in denial - thinking that they've stayed through previous hurricanes and the flooding went down then, it will go down soon now. You have to remember that they're not seeing the destruction we're seeing. They can only see their immediate surroundings. There's no electricity - so no TV. Pictures tell a lot - and even if someone hears a warning on the radio, they might think they'll be okay since they didn't witness the events like so many of us did.

[totalia]

I realize there are MANY people who did not have the financial means to get out. I also realize even w/out the $$ many chose to go to the dome. At that time noone realized how dangerous the dome would be. I also hear that alot of people would NOT leave due to their pets, it was all they owned etc. Even today a week after the devastation the Nat'l Guard is STILL having problems talking people into leaving!! Some of these people have small children. What can they possibly be thinking??? I'm a pet lover also but there would not be a second thought if it came to my life or the life of my family before any pets. I'm watching it live, there is no denying it. I don't understand where there common sense is. And common sense is not something you can buy!! All I know is I would be darn proud and extremely worried ifmy DH or loved one was in there trying to TALK people out of leaving their homes. I wish people would stop!! trying to make this a black/white ....financial issue. After thinking about it....I guess it is partly a financial issue, alot of people were waiting till the end of the month for their checks...again... is it money or life? :confused3

They aren't thinking. Thats the problem. Shock and unbelievable stress can do amazing things.

[daisy_77]

No one thinks the goverment is responsible for the hurricane.

What they are responsible for is the response.

It's unfathomable to me that some people believe the response was appropriate and timely - perhaps if they had been the ones with babies, children, and elderly people stuck on rooftops who DIED days after the hurricane was over, I bet the tune would be very, very different.

N.E.D.


My thoughts exactly...
they could've responded a lot faster. The news media, Red Cross and Salvation Army were there before help from FEMA was. That is a problem.

[chobie]

I realize there are MANY people who did not have the financial means to get out. I also realize even w/out the $$ many chose to go to the dome. At that time noone realized how dangerous the dome would be. I also hear that alot of people would NOT leave due to their pets, it was all they owned etc. Even today a week after the devastation the Nat'l Guard is STILL having problems talking people into leaving!! Some of these people have small children. What can they possibly be thinking??? I'm a pet lover also but there would not be a second thought if it came to my life or the life of my family before any pets. I'm watching it live, there is no denying it. I don't understand where there common sense is. And common sense is not something you can buy!! All I know is I would be darn proud and extremely worried ifmy DH or loved one was in there trying to TALK people out of leaving their homes. I wish people would stop!! trying to make this a black/white ....financial issue. After thinking about it....I guess it is partly a financial issue, alot of people were waiting till the end of the month for their checks...again... is it money or life? :confused3

Kind of hard to know what you would do in a certain situation, if you're not actually in that situation. We could all speculate as to what we would do, but that's all it is -- speculation. How people respond under extreme stress is not so easy to predict. I personally would not judge other people for how they should have reacted under a stressful situation that I personally have never experienced.

[bicker]

Someone does have to be to blame for the extremely lengthy time of response.Patiruss' point, I believe, is: Why? Why must someone need to be "to blame"? I understand frustration and all, but putting frustration aside, why?

But someone is to blame for people sitting on their rooftops dying of hunger and thirst and suffering disease while the rescue workers STILL havent come to save them from this hell on earth.Sorry, but no. Stuff happens sometime that no one person, and no small number of people, is "to blame" for. Sometimes, bad stuff happens that could only have been avoided if society itself had a different nature.

Some things are just BIGGER than we areExactly. It is a matter of humility.

"For God sakes, shut up and send us somebody"Also a good point: All this second-guessing and attacking of officials on-air to make good television is almost surely doing more harm than good. There will be more than enough time for recriminations in a couple of weeks, without risking deflecting attention away from getting help to those who need it.

[peacefulgirl]

Originally Posted by brittsmum1998
I realize there are MANY people who did not have the financial means to get out. I also realize even w/out the $$ many chose to go to the dome. At that time noone realized how dangerous the dome would be. I also hear that alot of people would NOT leave due to their pets, it was all they owned etc. Even today a week after the devastation the Nat'l Guard is STILL having problems talking people into leaving!! Some of these people have small children. What can they possibly be thinking??? I'm a pet lover also but there would not be a second thought if it came to my life or the life of my family before any pets. I'm watching it live, there is no denying it. I don't understand where there common sense is. And common sense is not something you can buy!! All I know is I would be darn proud and extremely worried ifmy DH or loved one was in there trying to TALK people out of leaving their homes. I wish people would stop!! trying to make this a black/white ....financial issue. After thinking about it....I guess it is partly a financial issue, alot of people were waiting till the end of the month for their checks...again... is it money or life? :confused3
They aren't thinking. Thats the problem. Shock and unbelievable stress can do amazing things.

DITO !!!!

[peacefulgirl]

Kind of hard to know what you would do in a certain situation, if you're not actually in that situation. We could all speculate as to what we would do, but that's all it is -- speculation. How people respond under extreme stress is not so easy to predict. I personally would not judge other people for how they should have reacted under a stressful situation that I personally have never experienced.

DITO!!!

[peacefulgirl]

Also a good point: All this second-guessing and attacking of officials on-air to make good television is almost surely doing more harm than good. There will be more than enough time for recriminations in a couple of weeks, without risking deflecting attention away from getting help to those who need it.

Exactly!!! Now is not the time for attacking anyone.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THAT THE MEDIA COVERAGE IS TEARING US ALL APART!!! WE ARE BICKERING WHILE OTHERS ARE DYING !! IT IS JUST WRONG :(

[auntpolly]

Exactly!!! Now is not the time for attacking anyone.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THAT THE MEDIA COVERAGE IS TEARING US ALL APART!!! WE ARE BICKERING WHILE OTHERS ARE DYING !! IT IS JUST WRONG :(


Personally, I don't feel torn apart, I feel recharged! It's not wrong to speak out for what you believe. I can do that and do what I can for the Hurricane victims at the same time.

I'm supposed to be at WDW right now, but we gave up WDW for a Catholic Charities donation, so I'm completely able to care and gripe at the same time, thank you very much!!!!! ;)

[bicker]

Sometimes the order of the day is, "Shut up and row," and to "lead, follow or get out of the way." There will be enough time for recriminations later.

[auntpolly]

Sometimes the order of the day is, "Shut up and row," and to "lead, follow or get out of the way." There will be enough time for recriminations later.,

said the people who wanted to divert attention from the bad job they just did.... ;)

[bicker]

It's actually quite a serious issue. I am saddened at the thought of how many people are dying because the media is distracting attention from the job of rescue and recovery with their Field Day. During an emergency, emergency work is all that folks should be focusing on.

[auntpolly]

It's actually quite a serious issue. I am saddened at the thought of how many people are dying because the media is distracting attention from the job of rescue and recovery with their Field Day. During an emergency, emergency work is all that folks should be focusing on.

Oh, it's the media's fault!

I can only imagine how grateful I would have been to see that evil monster THE MEDIA when no one else was showing up if I were stranded in New Orleans! One might have thought no one was coming at all......

[Mrs. Squirrel]

"MR. RUSSERT: Hold on. Hold on, sir. Shouldn't the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of New Orleans bear some responsibility? Couldn't they have been much more forceful, much more effective and much more organized in evacuating the area?

MR. BROUSSARD: Sir, they were told like me, every single day, "The cavalry's coming," on a federal level, "The cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming." I have just begun to hear the hoofs of the cavalry. The cavalry's still not here yet, but I've begun to hear the hoofs, and we're almost a week out."


This is the lamest excuse for inactivity I have heard yet! This can't be true. . .can it?

My DH was once the deputy director for our county's emergency management agency. At no time. . .ever. . .for any type of disaster was reliance on the resources of the federal government to be made in lieu of proper planning and preparation by local and state agencies. The locals are the first responders in any emergency. What was NO's huricanne disaster plan? Was it inadequate or not properly implimented? What was NO's levee breach disaster plan? Was it inadequate or not properly implimented? If the Superdome was the designated last resort shelter, why wasn't it stockpiled with supplies prior to Katrina's hit? (Remember people, it was to be a Cat 5 when it hit!) Why weren't buses mobilized for evacuations of the poor prior to Katrina's landfall? I could go on and on. These are questions for the local and state authorities to address. Failure at this level contributed to the loss of life and property from Katrina and to the slow after-storm response. The blame cannot rest nor should be allowed to fall solely on the shoulder's of the federal government for this one. . .no way!

[auntpolly]

My DH was once the deputy director for our county's emergency management agency. At no time. . .ever. . .for any type of disaster was reliance on the resources of the federal government to be made in lieu of proper planning and preparation by local and state agencies.

So tell us, how did your DH handle his last disaster with thousands dead, millions homeless, and 80% of a major city having been under water?

[Mrs. Squirrel]

So tell us, how did your DH handle his last disaster with thousands dead, millions homeless, and 80% of a major city having been under water?
Nice bait, but not into fishing. . .thanks anyway!

[auntpolly]

Nice bait, but not into fishing. . .thanks anyway!

It's a valid question! If you are going to use your DH's situation to show what should have been done, then just tell us how it is the same thing?

It's always better to get things done without the feds, but after a disaster like this one, I sure hope my tax dollars go to something more constructive than hair cuts for senators; don't you?

Your husband really wouldn't have wanted the cavalry in a situation like this one?

[bicker]

Oh, it's the media's fault! It is the media's fault that they're trying to assess blame now, rather than focusing solely on fostering the relief effort.

[Mrs. Squirrel]

It's a valid question! If you are going to use your DH's situation to show what should have been done, then just tell us how it is the same thing?

I never used my DH's situation to show what should have been done. I used my DH's situation to show that it is not normal for local and state officials to use the federal government as their disaster plan. All of my comments were directly related to the interview between Tim Russert and a NO parish official Mr. Broussard quoted at the top of my original post.

If you had wanted to know my DH's thoughts on what should have been done, you would have asked. Instead you posted:
So tell us, how did your DH handle his last disaster with thousands dead, millions homeless, and 80% of a major city having been under water?
Being in landlocked central Indiana, there is no disaster preparedness for 80% of Indianapolis being under water due to a levee break. It is not a scenario that we contend with. However, there are plans for tornados, floods, earthquakes, nuclear attack, biological attack, chemical attack, etc., that we do and may have to contend with. None of the plans include using the federal government as a first response to any disaster. . .man-made or natural.

If you want to know my DH's thoughts on what should have been done, but didn't know how to ask. . .send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will have him respond to you directly.

[drakethib]

"MR. RUSSERT: Hold on. Hold on, sir. Shouldn't the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of New Orleans bear some responsibility? Couldn't they have been much more forceful, much more effective and much more organized in evacuating the area?

MR. BROUSSARD: Sir, they were told like me, every single day, "The cavalry's coming," on a federal level, "The cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming." I have just begun to hear the hoofs of the cavalry. The cavalry's still not here yet, but I've begun to hear the hoofs, and we're almost a week out."


This is the lamest excuse for inactivity I have heard yet! This can't be true. . .can it?

My DH was once the deputy director for our county's emergency management agency. At no time. . .ever. . .for any type of disaster was reliance on the resources of the federal government to be made in lieu of proper planning and preparation by local and state agencies. The locals are the first responders in any emergency. What was NO's huricanne disaster plan? Was it inadequate or not properly implimented? What was NO's levee breach disaster plan? Was it inadequate or not properly implimented? If the Superdome was the designated last resort shelter, why wasn't it stockpiled with supplies prior to Katrina's hit? (Remember people, it was to be a Cat 5 when it hit!) Why weren't buses mobilized for evacuations of the poor prior to Katrina's landfall? I could go on and on. These are questions for the local and state authorities to address. Failure at this level contributed to the loss of life and property from Katrina and to the slow after-storm response. The blame cannot rest nor should be allowed to fall solely on the shoulder's of the federal government for this one. . .no way!


I agree that New Orleans local government should have been better prepared, but FEMA did not respond as they should. (Please see my other post regarding FEMA and Hurricane Andrew).

As taxpayers, we pay for a “security blanket” such as FEMA. Someone needs to be held accountable.

Also, please note that the city of New Orleans has a population of approx 500,000, not including the surrounding suburbs, etc. Realistically I do not see how the local government could not rely on help from the Feds in a catastrophe such as this. New Orleans does not have a fleet of choppers, rescue boats, etc for such a situation. We also need to keep in mind that this is the worst case scenario; we are paying FEMA to provide a means to execute search and rescue, sustaining life, temp shelters, as that is their supposed function to plan for such events.

We see nearby local communities gathering boats and what not, heading to N.O. to help rescue without any kind of organization or waiting for FEMA to have their “logistical plan” in place. Please don’t get me wrong, their needs to be choreographed effort to make things happened, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that they can load up a couple of C-130 transports (like maybe from Fort Polk or Fort Hood as they usually have access to a couple for training, if not from their there is a huge Air Force Base in San Antonio, TX which is about a 2.5 hour flight to N.O.) and start making supply and provision drops throughout the city and other affected areas. In regards to the looting, orders could have very easily be sent from the feds to send Paratroopers (maybe from Fort Benning, GA) into N.O. (they wouldn’t have to land the plane) to help restore order. All this could have been done within a 24- 36 hour time frame after the storm hit had FEMA had their game plan in place. This would at least bought them enough time and saved enough lives until they did get their master plan in place.

I think anyone who has spent anytime in the military might possibly agree that I am not way off base on this.

I for one would like to know your husbands thoughts on the situation as he has experience with dealing with O.E.P. if he would not mine sharing it with me. Please ask him to PM if he doesn’t mind and I will keep it in confidence.

I need to add had it not been for leaders such as Mayor Nagin, Sheriff Harry Lee, Aron Broussard, New Orleans would still have not recvd help yet.

[momof2inPA]

[QUOTE=Mrs. SquirrelMy DH was once the deputy director for our county's emergency management agency. At no time. . .ever. . .for any type of disaster was reliance on the resources of the federal government to be made in lieu of proper planning and preparation by local and state agencies. [/QUOTE]

Rescuing a hundred thousand people in flood waters isn't the same as cleaning up a hazmat spill on the interstate. Trust me, if Indy were entirely and quickly flooded tomorrow or if a huge Nagasaki type bomb hit downtown, there would be thousands of poor folk there begging for federal help, military intervention, disaster relief. The local training and local manpower wouldn't suffice. The day after the hurricane, the mayor of NO talked to everyone on a federal level, even the president, asking and begging for help. He knew his resources- 1500 cops, couldn't handle it.

On Wednesday, the president said there were hundreds of busses that would rescue the people from the superdome and that they would all be picked up on Thursday morning. They didn't come. It was all a big screw up, face it.

Plus, your husband was trained on local emergency response. The people at FEMA are trained on federal emergency response. That is their sole job, and one that they have failed at, miserably, in this case.

[bicker]

As taxpayers, we pay for a “security blanket” such as FEMA.That "security blanket" is not unequivocal. What we, as taxpayers, pay for is a specific level of security, not unrestricted security.

Someone needs to be held accountable.That's not true. I recently posted my comments about this in another thread, if you're interested in why it isn't true.

Also, please note that the city of New Orleans has a population of approx 500,000, not including the surrounding suburbs, etc. Realistically I do not see how the local government could not rely on help from the Feds in a catastrophe such as this.I believe you'll find that the State of Louisiana has more emergency response personnel than all of FEMA (including non-emergency response personnel).

In accordance with FEMA’s primary authorizing legislation, the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, FEMA is first and foremost a coordinating agency. As others have pointed out, and is codified in the authorizing legislation, primary responsibility for disaster response rests with State and local authorities. It is the responsibility of municipalities to plan for their own disasters, and rely on the Federal government only to marshall resources of other agencies (including other municipalities), to come to the aid of a municipality that is overwhelmed by a disaster. The problem, this time, is that so many neighboring municipalities were similarly afflicted that there were no resources available to call on. How do you evaluate how well someone coordinates things when there is nothing available for them to direct?

You want a higher level of security than our current government provides. Good. More power to you. Go ahead and lobby for it. I don't think the American people were ready for it, before this disaster, and to be honest, after this disaster fades from the memory of 90% of Americans, I doubt they'll support it. Good luck, though.

[drakethib]

That "security blanket" is not unequivocal. What we, as taxpayers, pay for is a specific level of security, not unrestricted security.

That's not true. I recently posted my comments about this in another thread, if you're interested in why it isn't true.

I believe you'll find that the State of Louisiana has more emergency response personnel than all of FEMA (including non-emergency response personnel).

In accordance with FEMA’s primary authorizing legislation, the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, FEMA is first and foremost a coordinating agency. As others have pointed out, and is codified in the authorizing legislation, primary responsibility for disaster response rests with State and local authorities. It is the responsibility of municipalities to plan for their own disasters, and rely on the Federal government only to marshall resources of other agencies (including other municipalities), to come to the aid of a municipality that is overwhelmed by a disaster. The problem, this time, is that so many neighboring municipalities were similarly afflicted that there were no resources available to call on. How do you evaluate how well someone coordinates things when there is nothing available for them to direct?

You want a higher level of security than our current government provides. Good. More power to you. Go ahead and lobby for it. I don't think the American people were ready for it, before this disaster, and to be honest, after this disaster fades from the memory of 90% of Americans, I doubt they'll support it. Good luck, though.


Wow nice response.

So without trying to start a flame war here are my rdeponses. Please be patient though I am unsure on how to do those quote boxes.

The security blanket may be in theory and as you said we may not be entitled to unrestricted security, but the end result is FEMA has failed and they have failed miserably. After seeing al of this how comfortable are you with the thoughts of these individuals coordinating a relief effort in your area should a catataphore happen in your area?

As for accountability, just for instance, if you are the boss where your company works for and the company starts to fail, where does the buck stop? In every M&A that I have been involved with directly or indirectly, if the leader of the company is not performing, he or she is will be replaced.

As for finding out how many emergency response personnel Louisiana and if they have more then FEMA has I will check, but I will ask where you got this fact from because I doubt this very seriously but do not have the backing to dismiss this claim. I lived in Louisiana for 28 years and do not remember seeing an abundance of ERP.

Last, we FEMA is an acronym for Federal Emergency Management Agency. The description is that local municipalities must prepare for their own disasters; I can agree with that, however, I cannot buy into the fact that there were so many disasters that they could not figure out where to start. IMHO, Common Sense dictates that once the winds and rain from the hurricane cease look at the areas affected. While Biloxi & Alabama had flooding, it was no where the extent that New Orleans would be facing. Send Provisions (Food & Water) to all affected areas, look what could possibly cause more destruction (The New Orleans area has a Petroleum and Chemical Industry that has items stored that could wreck havoc greatly if ignited) and concentrate your relief efforts accordingly with the resources at hand as needed most urgent first.

"It is the responsibility of municipalities to plan for their own disasters, and rely on the Federal government only to marshall resources of other agencies (including other municipalities), to come to the aid of a municipality that is overwhelmed by a disaster". I agree. Why the heck did it take them so darn long to call up additional resources from the military?

We are seeing where Wal-Mart sent 3 truckloads of water the day after the storm and FEMA turned them away. Stories like this are being repeated from the Mayor, Parish Manager, etc. Does anyone think the leadership of the affected communities is making this stuff up?

For cripes sake, bureaucracy caused many lives to be lost. Common Sense was not used. Again, FEMA is an acronym for Federal Emergency Management Agency. They did not MANAGE this situation. They did not respond to the situation. That reacted to the situation.
Darn near every OEP person in the Gulf Coast is saying how much of a cluster flip FEMAs response has been to their respective assignments.

As for your last statement regarding more government security, no one is saying we want a police state, but when something like this happens, we should be able to rely on a government on which we support and who is supposed to be a representation of the people who live in the U.S.

It is very heartbreaking to see this happening to the people of my home state. I pray this never happens to yours.

[Laz]

Here is a Link to the FEMA act. Someone decipher this gook and tell me who is suppose to do what? :confused3

Robert T Stafford Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm#sec402)

[totalia]

Sometimes the order of the day is, "Shut up and row," and to "lead, follow or get out of the way." There will be enough time for recriminations later.
WE aren't there. WE can't do much except maybe give some cash.

So WE are in a position to question what happened. The evac is almost complete. The people are out and are being helped as much as those elsewhere possibly can.

That means WE can question. WE can bring up the problems that have come up through all of this.

Because we can do nothing else and alot of questions have bee raised about the competancy of the gvt.

So yes, this is the time. What other time is there? When everything is running perfectly? I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[Planogirl]

I think what needs to be pinned down is exactly what the federal government's responsibilities are when it's clear that other government entities are either too overwhelmed or too slow to respond. Also, another question is what exactly are the responsibilities of Homeland Security in situations like this. Homeland Security is a fairly new entity and I'm not real clear on where they fit into situations such as these.

These are important questions IMO whether dealt with now or later. Disasters happen and will continue to happen and it would be wise to learn from this situation.

[Geoff_M]

Also, please note that the city of New Orleans has a population of approx 500,000, not including the surrounding suburbs, etc. Realistically I do not see how the local government could not rely on help from the Feds in a catastrophe such as this.I've posted this story here too many times to count, but before we say FEMA "failed", we need to understand what they were supposed to do in the first place. In 2004 FEMA conducted a "table top" exercise called "Hurricane Pam". This exercise included FEMA and 50 state and local agencies from NO and Louisiana. The scenario was a hurricane strike that resulted in exactly what we have today in NO. From that excercise a coordinated plan was developed. The plan called for state, local, and private agencies to be the first responders in the region. They agreed that they could "hold down the fort" and get search and rescue and victim care up and running and would be able to run things for the first 3-5 days. AFTER that time FEMA was to have their supplies and people in place to take things over for the long haul. But that didn't happen... and FEMA had to run to fill the vacuum. The notion that perpetuates that FEMA was supposed to be in control on Day 1 is a false one and was never called for.

In regards to the looting, orders could have very easily be sent from the feds to send Paratroopers (maybe from Fort Benning, GA) into N.O. (they wouldn’t have to land the plane) to help restore order. All this could have been done within a 24- 36 hour time frame after the storm hit had FEMA had their game plan in place. This would at least bought them enough time and saved enough lives until they did get their master plan in place.If you want some background on this, read this transcript to learn about the political mechanics required to do such a thing: Defense Department Briefing on Ongoing National Guard Response to Hurricane Katrina (http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050903-3850.html)

You'll see that the it wasn't expected that 2/3rd of the NOPD would "evaporate" and the Guard would be asked to heavily augment law & order taks. Also, you can't just paratroop MPs into the city and tell them "Go take care of 'Law & Order'!" They require some training for things like how they are to interact with the local law enforcement, what are the rules of engaugement, where are they going, what will they find, what's the chain of command.

I need to add had it not been for leaders such as Mayor Nagin, Sheriff Harry Lee, Aron Broussard, New Orleans would still have not recvd help yet.Via the magic of TV news, that might make sense... but logically that doesn't hold up. On-air rants don't cause 8-mile long aid convoys to materialize in a few hours (containing some vehicles that started in Los Angeles, for starters). Without a doubt that effort was coordinated over a couple of days... long before the politicians took to the airwaves to tell us they had been "failed".

[bicker]

Wow nice response.I try hard. :)

The security blanket may be in theory and as you said we may not be entitled to unrestricted security, but the end result is FEMA has failed and they have failed miserably.Failed what? Failed to live up to hopes and dreams? Definitely. Failed to do their job, within the context of the resources allocated to them? I don't think you can say that at this time.

After seeing al of this how comfortable are you with the thoughts of these individuals coordinating a relief effort in your area should a catataphore happen in your area?That's precisely my point: How comfortable we are, or even how effective they are, isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not they did what they were able to, responsibly. Could there be better emergency response? Definitely. There always will be something better somewhere. I am not convinced that the American people ever charged their government with Carte Blanche to have the best possible emergency response, regardless of the cost. The cost has always been high on list of concerns of the American people -- and to our detriment in this case, surely.

As for accountability, just for instance, if you are the boss where your company works for and the company starts to fail, where does the buck stop?Only at the top. So why pick on Chertoff and Brown? They work for Bush. Regardless, anyone who expects to get Cadillac service at a Dodge price is unreasonable, and even the boss doesn't take flak about providing Dodge service for a Dodge price.

As for finding out how many emergency response personnel Louisiana and if they have more then FEMA has I will check, but I will ask where you got this fact from because I doubt this very seriously but do not have the backing to dismiss this claim. I lived in Louisiana for 28 years and do not remember seeing an abundance of ERP.FEMA has 2,600 employees. [Source: FEMA.] New Orleans has over 1,500 police officers. [Source: NOPD.] Louisiana has a total of over 16,000 police officers. [Source: FBI.] That doesn't even include firefighters and emergency medical personnel.

Last, we FEMA is an acronym for Federal Emergency Management Agency. The description is that local municipalities must prepare for their own disasters; I can agree with that, however, I cannot buy into the fact that there were so many disasters that they could not figure out where to start.No, you misunderstood. FEMA works by coordinating help from neighboring areas. For example, if there is a catastrophe in New Orleans, FEMA would work to get help from Baton Rouge and Bilouxi. Unfortunately, both Baton Rouge and Bilouxi need help, and are therefore unavailable to satisfy their FEMA duties.

Why the heck did it take them so darn long to call up additional resources from the military?There are Consitutional reasons why the military must get permission from the governor of a state. In this case, the governor of Lousiana has actually refused some military assistance. Go ask her why. Don't blame the Federal government for decisions made by the governor.

We are seeing where Wal-Mart sent 3 truckloads of water the day after the storm and FEMA turned them away. Stories like this are being repeated from the Mayor, Parish President, etc. Does anyone think the leadership of the affected communities is making this stuff up?I do. I believe FEMA probably explained why they were turning them away, and the Mayor, Parish Manager, etc., were upset that FEMA didn't throw all their plans and qualified procedures away to kowtow to whatever assistance that came at it, regardless of how radically it would adversely affect FEMA's ability to do the best job it can do. I think there are a lot of very frustrated people out there, and many would have no qualms use the media to express their frustration. And the Mayor and Parish President both seem so stressed that I wouldn't trust a single word they'd say. No one is reliable under those conditions. If they had kowtowed to that frustration, we'd still have anarchy in Louisiana.

For cripes sake, bureaucracy caused many lives to be lost.No. A disaster caused many lives to be lost. If it isn't sufficient to blame a hurricane, then try this: Tax relief caused many lives to be lost. $40,000 of taxpayer money per year for flood prevention over the last three years, when what we really should have spent was more like $400,000 per year.

Common Sense was not used.I don't believe we have anywhere near enough information to even begin to assess whether that is the case.

They did not MANAGE this situation.Yet, they may have used the available resources as best as possible. Bad stuff happens. It isn't always someone's fault.

[bicker]

WE aren't there. WE can't do much except maybe give some cash.My comments were directly primarily at the opportunistic media folks who are deflecting attention away from the need, towards blame, which garners higher ratings.

So yes, this is the time. What other time is there? When everything is running perfectly? I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.You're absolutely right. The American people lose interest in protecting themselves when they're not hurting, and so this will happen again and again, because the American people will not support the sacrifices they'd have to make to have superlatively effective disaster relief for even this level of catastrophe available at all times.

The plan called for state, local, and private agencies to be the first responders in the region. They agreed that they could "hold down the fort" and get search and rescue and victim care up and running and would be able to run things for the first 3-5 days. AFTER that time FEMA was to have their supplies and people in place to take things over for the long haul. But that didn't happen... and FEMA had to run to fill the vacuum. The notion that perpetuates that FEMA was supposed to be in control on Day 1 is a false one and was never called for.Thanks for finding and posting that, Geoff.

[drakethib]

I've posted this story here too many times to count, but before we say FEMA "failed", we need to understand what they were supposed to do in the first place. In 2004 FEMA conducted a "table top" exercise called "Hurricane Pam". This exercise included FEMA and 50 state and local agencies from NO and Louisiana. The scenario was a hurricane strike that resulted in exactly what we have today in NO. From that excercise a coordinated plan was developed. The plan called for state, local, and private agencies to be the first responders in the region. They agreed that they could "hold down the fort" and get search and rescue and victim care up and running and would be able to run things for the first 3-5 days. AFTER that time FEMA was to have their supplies and people in place to take things over for the long haul. But that didn't happen... and FEMA had to run to fill the vacuum. The notion that perpetuates that FEMA was supposed to be in control on Day 1 is a false one and was never called for.

If you want some background on this, read this transcript to learn about the political mechanics required to do such a thing: Defense Department Briefing on Ongoing National Guard Response to Hurricane Katrina (http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050903-3850.html)

You'll see that the it wasn't expected that 2/3rd of the NOPD would "evaporate" and the Guard would be asked to heavily augment law & order taks. Also, you can't just paratroop MPs into the city and tell them "Go take care of 'Law & Order'!" They require some training for things like how they are to interact with the local law enforcement, what are the rules of engaugement, where are they going, what will they find, what's the chain of command.

Via the magic of TV news, that might make sense... but logically that doesn't hold up. On-air rants don't cause 8-mile long aid convoys to materialize in a few hours (containing some vehicles that started in Los Angeles, for starters). Without a doubt that effort was coordinated over a couple of days... long before the politicians took to the airwaves to tell us they had been "failed".


OK. You have brought up some valid points and a couple things that I want to read such as the transcript from the DOD. I definitely would like to read the Hurricane Pam exercise. I am going to do a search for it.

However, 2 things are incorrect.

1. N.O. did not have 2/3 of their force leave. It was 1/3 (which is still bad enough). It looks like news stations are reporting what they want regarding this.

2. When I was in the LA National Guard, we had what was called Civil Disturbance training (BTW, I was not a MP), and we were taught rules of engagement, working with local & Fed authorities (we trained with them side by side). Breaking the city down in quadrants would not be that difficult. The chain of command is not that hard to figure out. Cripes, a mission is a mission. Only the names of the chain change.

We aren't always going to be so lucky in life that every incident is going to have a textbook scenario.

There are times when you must improvise.

I understand about supplies coming in from California, but not every truck came from there.

What you called a rant is what I am calling a plea for help.

Again, I pray that this does not happen to you.

[bicker]

And pleas for help are constructive, no doubt, but can be directed to get the most impact. Directing such pleas to those who are already in the process of helping, as much as they can -- well, the example I gave yesterday was a frozen chicken in water on a stove, "becoming soup" -- you can plead all you want, but it won't become soup any faster. Pleas to folks who aren't in the process of helping definitely would have constructive results: Family members, friends, neighbors, acquaintances, etc., anyone who hasn't donated yet should be encouraged to do so -- we should plead with them to do so. Some of our own state governments are already helping -- if you live in one of the states where that's not the case, directing such pleas to your legislators and governor would be very constructive. Every state should be helping. This disaster is too big for the neighboring states to carry the entire burden.

[Geoff_M]

1. N.O. did not have 2/3 of their force leave. It was 1/3 (which is still bad enough). It looks like news stations are reporting what they want regarding this.I was going by this from the press conference:Q: And you estimate there's about a third of the New Orleans Police Department left. Do you remember about how many are in the New Orleans Police Department?

GEN. BLUM: On a normal day they should have 1,500 paid officers in New Orleans, give or take. Some people have said it's 1,650. It's in the rough order of 1,500-man police force, and I think the mayor told me they're down to less than 500.Blum appears to have gotten the number straight from the mayor... so I figured it was worth repeating. Even if the mayor's estimated proved to be low, that was the scenario painted for them when they had to prepare.

2. When I was in the LA National Guard, we had what was called Civil Disturbance training (BTW, I was not a MP), and we were taught rules of engagement, working with local & Fed authorities (we trained with them side by side). Breaking the city down in quadrants would not be that difficult. The chain of command is not that hard to figure out. Cripes, a mission is a mission. Only the names of the chain change."Training" wasn't the term used by Lt. Gen Blum, I got the context wrong:We waited until we had enough force in place to do an overwhelming force. Went in with police powers, 1,000 National Guard military policemen under the command and control of the adjutant general of the State of Louisiana, Major General Landreneau, yesterday shortly after noon stormed the convention center, for lack of a better term, and there was absolutely no opposition, complete cooperation, and we attribute that to an excellent plan, superbly executed with great military precision. It was rather complex. It was executed absolutely flawlessly in that there was no violent resistance, no one injured, no one shot, even though there were stabbed, even though there were weapons in the area. There were no soldiers injured and we did not have to fire a shot.

Some people asked why didn't we go in sooner. Had we gone in with less force it may have been challenged, innocents may have been caught in a fight between the Guard military police and those who did not want to be processed or apprehended, and we would put innocents' lives at risk. As soon as we could mass the appropriate force, which we flew in from all over the states at the rate of 1,400 a day, they were immediately moved off the tail gates of C-130 aircraft flown by the Air National Guard, moved right to the scene, briefed, rehearsed, and then they went in and took this convention center down.

Those that were undesirable to re-enter the convention center were segregated from the people that we wanted to provide water, shelter and food. Those people were processed to make sure they had no weapons, no illicit dugs, no alcohol, no contraband, and then they were escorted back into the building. Now there's a controlled safe and secure environment and a shelter and a haven as they await movement out of that center for onward integration to their normal lives.

[drakethib]

I try hard. :)

Failed what? Failed to live up to hopes and dreams? Definitely. Failed to do their job, within the context of the resources allocated to them? I don't think you can say that at this time.

That's precisely my point: How comfortable we are, or even how effective they are, isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not they did what they were able to, responsibly. Could there be better emergency response? Definitely. There always will be something better somewhere. I am not convinced that the American people ever charged their government with Carte Blanche to have the best possible emergency response, regardless of the cost. The cost has always been high on list of concerns of the American people -- and to our detriment in this case, surely.

Only at the top. So why pick on Chertoff and Brown? They work for Bush. Regardless, anyone who expects to get Cadillac service at a Dodge price is unreasonable, and even the boss doesn't take flak about providing Dodge service for a Dodge price.

FEMA has 2,600 employees. [Source: FEMA.] New Orleans has over 1,500 police officers. [Source: NOPD.] Louisiana has a total of over 16,000 police officers. [Source: FBI.] That doesn't even include firefighters and emergency medical personnel.

No, you misunderstood. FEMA works by coordinating help from neighboring areas. For example, if there is a catastrophe in New Orleans, FEMA would work to get help from Baton Rouge and Bilouxi. Unfortunately, both Baton Rouge and Bilouxi need help, and are therefore unavailable to satisfy their FEMA duties.

There are Consitutional reasons why the military must get permission from the governor of a state. In this case, the governor of Lousiana has actually refused some military assistance. Go ask her why. Don't blame the Federal government for decisions made by the governor.

I do. I believe FEMA probably explained why they were turning them away, and the Mayor, Parish Manager, etc., were upset that FEMA didn't throw all their plans and qualified procedures away to kowtow to whatever assistance that came at it, regardless of how radically it would adversely affect FEMA's ability to do the best job it can do. I think there are a lot of very frustrated people out there, and many would have no qualms use the media to express their frustration. And the Mayor and Parish President both seem so stressed that I wouldn't trust a single word they'd say. No one is reliable under those conditions. If they had kowtowed to that frustration, we'd still have anarchy in Louisiana.

No. A disaster caused many lives to be lost. If it isn't sufficient to blame a hurricane, then try this: Tax relief caused many lives to be lost. $40,000 of taxpayer money per year for flood prevention over the last three years, when what we really should have spent was more like $400,000 per year.

I don't believe we have anywhere near enough information to even begin to assess whether that is the case.

Yet, they may have used the available resources as best as possible. Bad stuff happens. It isn't always someone's fault.


More good discussion topics.

My 2 cents again. Sorry I still haven’t figured the quote boxes out still. 

As I said before, FEMA had their act together during Andrew; I will go to my grave believing they didn't in this case.

Thanks for the figures on the FEMA vs. ERP, but I still don’t think we are comparing apples to apples. My thoughts (maybe I am wrong) is that this agency sole existence is to plan as best they can for scenarios such as this and be ready to respond, not react where as Police Officers and what not do not have a full staff to sit behind a desk and try to figure out what to do on a daily basis.

I am very disappointed in their response and quite frankly if their only function is to work from neighboring communities, I think we can get rid of them.

Constitutional reasoning for activating military to help with this situation. Ok. I will buy that. So it also opens up another can of worms. Why couldn't Bush (Did I mention that I am a Bush supporter and did vote for him) issue an executive order to get this done? It took way too long to get the military on site. The military can be put on alert status to be prepared to deploy as well while they “red tape” is being prepared.

Just trying to remember, when 9/11 happened, how many days did it take for F-16’s (or whatever the jets are) to patrol over major cities? There were flying over Houston on the same day. How long was it before the military was on site in downtown Manhattan? (I don’t know this, I am asking)

Please tell me where you saw that Governor Blanco refused military assistance.

$400,000 in flood prevention a year would not have touched what needed to be done. And in all fairness, I don’t think much could have prevented this disaster. Mother Nature will win. We just need to know how to pick up the pieces when she leaves.

[momof2inPA]

My comments were directly primarily at the opportunistic media folks who are deflecting attention away from the need, towards blame, which garners higher ratings.


They're just saying what everyone else is saying-- people at the grocery, people at Church, people in my neighborhood, people on the DIS, people at the school bus stop, people at my kids' school...

[Geoff_M]

how many days did it take for F-16’s (or whatever the jets are) to patrol over major cities? There were flying over Houston on the same day.I could be wrong, but I don't think the states control the air space above them... I think that's a little different than "boots on the ground".

[Geoff_M]

They're just saying what everyone else is saying-- people at the grocery, people at Church, people in my neighborhood, people on the DIS, people at the school bus stop, people at my kids' school...And since few of us are on the scene down in NO, MS, and AL, where to you think those people get the info that helps shape those opinions?

[drakethib]

I was going by this from the press conference:Blum appears to have gotten the number straight from the mayor... so I figured it was worth repeating. Even if the mayor's estimated proved to be low, that was the scenario painted for them when they had to prepare.

"Training" wasn't the term used by Lt. Gen Blum, I got the context wrong:

I think that number is low for total Police force of N.O. That does not sound correct at all.

In regards to wanting to be manned, Donald Rumsfield said of the war in Iraq "You don't go in with the Army you wish you had, you go in with what you have".

Humanitarian efforts and helping fight the unlawful looting (I honestly think this was a small percentage of people taking TV's, etc., not food) "Boots on the Ground" could have definitely helped.

If this would have been Wallstreet, I think the response would have been different.

God Bless.

[drakethib]

And since few of us are on the scene down in NO, MS, and AL, where to you think those people get the info that helps shape those opinions?


Just wondering.

If you are on the scene, where are you?

[drakethib]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the states control the air space above them... I think that's a little different than "boots on the ground".


Scratching my head. I am not sure either, but it the jets did signify a military presence did it not?

Much like the Aircraft Carrier which was parked right outside of New York.

[Geoff_M]

In regards to wanting to be manned, Donald Rumsfield said of the war in Iraq "You don't go in with the Army you wish you had, you go in with what you have".I don't think that we've declared war on New Orleans... but I did hear one person quip upon hearing the news that the Navy task force was being sent that he hoped with some shelling we should be able to hold a beach head and the Union could finally claim victory over New Orleans!

But if the Guard had gone in to the Convention Center area containing ~20K people with a small force and armed thugs had decided to start a shooting match, how would dead civilians (probably mostly African Americans too) have helped calm the situation and looked in the press?

If this would have been Wallstreet, I think the response would have been different.I agree if the area of impact had been limited to a few city blocks instead of an area the size of Great Britain a different sort of military response would have resulted.

If you are on the scene, where are you?Nope, I'm watching it on TV and reading about it on the Internet... just like all of the other arm chair relief experts here.


Scratching my head. I am not sure either, but it the jets did signify a military presence did it not?
I'm sure if Gov. Blanco had asked for F-16's to merely circle New Orleans, they'd have been there in short order.

[Mickey's Monkey]

More good discussion topics.


As I said before, FEMA had their act together during Andrew; I will go to my grave believing they didn't in this case.

Your memory about Andrew appears vague at best. GWH Bush was lambasted for the slow FEMA response the Andrew affected areas. It took NINE DAYS for the Dept of Defense to process the repsonse request to Andrew. With Katrina there were boots on the ground in 24 hours and full scale relief efforts in 3 days.

My memory of history is vague, but can some remind of a time within the last 25 or even 50 years were a hurricane a subsequent flood basically destroyed a major city the size of N.O. and tell me what the response time was so we can compare?


Constitutional reasoning for activating military to help with this situation. Ok. I will buy that. So it also opens up another can of worms. Why couldn't Bush (Did I mention that I am a Bush supporter and did vote for him) issue an executive order to get this done? It took way too long to get the military on site. The military can be put on alert status to be prepared to deploy as well while they “red tape” is being prepared.

A President can issue an executive order designed to usurp the authority of local officials. Do you really want that precedent being set?


Just trying to remember, when 9/11 happened, how many days did it take for F-16’s (or whatever the jets are) to patrol over major cities? There were flying over Houston on the same day. How long was it before the military was on site in downtown Manhattan? (I don’t know this, I am asking)


The military can fly OVER any city they want. It's setting foot on the ground and taking over local authority that is the issue. Again, I'm not sure that's the sort of precent you want to be setting.



$400,000 in flood prevention a year would not have touched what needed to be done. And in all fairness, I don’t think much could have prevented this disaster. Mother Nature will win. We just need to know how to pick up the pieces when she leaves.

True, but I think bicker's point is, what would you have been willing to pay for, from a federal tax perspective, sitting comfortably in your home and not seeing disasters daily on TV? Everything cost money. Sure, we all might say "hell yes! I'm willing to pay more to help these people". But 3-5-10 years from now when this fades from people's memory (Hurricane David, Hurricane Andrew anyone. Who of those that didn't live through it, remember it?)

[bicker]

I will go to my grave believing they didn't in this case.I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about whether you can possibly know that, at this time.

Thanks for the figures on the FEMA vs. ERP, but I still don’t think we are comparing apples to apples.We're not. The FEMA numbers include secretaries and janitors.

My thoughts (maybe I am wrong) is that this agency sole existence is to plan as best they can for scenarios such as this and be ready to respond, not react where as Police Officers and what not do not have a full staff to sit behind a desk and try to figure out what to do on a daily basis.The American people have decided, by default and proxy, that they do not want to pay the cost of maintaining a full staff of emergency responders on-staff, on-call 24/7/365. So FEMA coordinates, but the emergency responders are actually the local personnel.

I am very disappointed in their response and quite frankly if their only function is to work from neighboring communities, I think we can get rid of them.That's a good point. However, I think the value of coordination is much higher than you're giving it credit for.

Why couldn't Bush (Did I mention that I am a Bush supporter and did vote for him) issue an executive order to get this done?That's exactly what CANNOT happen. The Federal government doesn't trump the state governments. The first division in our country was between federalism versus states rights. States rights won. The Constitution is very clear about that: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Only the states can grant powers to the Federal government that it doesn't have by default.

Just trying to remember, when 9/11 happened, how many days did it take for F-16’s (or whatever the jets are) to patrol over major cities?One of the powers granted explicitly to the Federal government is to defend the states against "invasion" -- not against forces of nature.

Please tell me where you saw that Governor Blanco refused military assistance. It was reported on CNN this afternoon. She refused to federalize the National Guard, preferring they retain their ability to serve as police officers. Therefore, they are prohibited from working with the military. It makes some level of sense, if she really believes that the regular police cannot maintain the peace. It makes no sense if they could. The National Guard would save more lives if it was federalized.

$400,000 in flood prevention a year would not have touched what needed to be done.Yet, it would have been a lot better than $40,000.

[bicker]

They're just saying what everyone else is saying-- people at the grocery, people at Church, people in my neighborhood, people on the DIS, people at the school bus stop, people at my kids' school...I think it is the other way around: Folks are saying what they're saying at the grocery, church, etc., because that's the information that they're being exposed to.

"Boots on the Ground" could have definitely helped.Then maybe it is time to change the Constitution. The Republicans would have a bit of a problem, though, with giving up States' Rights.

[drakethib]

I don't think that we've declared war on New Orleans... but I did hear one person quip upon hearing the news that the Navy task force was being sent that he hoped with some shelling we should be able to hold a beach head and the Union could finally claim victory over New Orleans!

But if the Guard had gone in to the Convention Center area containing ~20K people with a small force and armed thugs had decided to start a shooting match, how would dead civilians (probably mostly African Americans too) have helped calm the situation and looked in the press?

I agree if the area of impact had been limited to a few city blocks instead of an area the size of Great Britain a different sort of military response would have resulted.

Nope, I'm watching it on TV and reading about it on the Internet... just like all of the other arm chair relief experts here.

I'm sure if Gov. Blanco had asked for F-16's to merely circle New Orleans, they'd have been there in short order.


No one is saying we declared war on New Orleans, I think you know what I meant by that statement.

We can turn words around all we like, but the end result will be we disagree.








+

[drakethib]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about whether you can possibly know that, at this time.

Agreed.


That's a good point. However, I think the value of coordination is much higher than you're giving it credit for.

Then why have them?


One of the powers granted explicitly to the Federal government is to defend the states against "invasion" -- not against forces of nature.

So if someone set off a bomb, the military could help. That makes good sense.

It was reported on CNN this afternoon. She refused to federalize the National Guard, preferring they retain their ability to serve as police officers. Therefore, they are prohibited from working with the military. It makes some level of sense, if she really believes that the regular police cannot maintain the peace. It makes no sense if they could. The National Guard would save more lives if it was federalized.

There is a difference between not wanting military help and federalizing the Guard. Now we are changing words around. How could federalizing the Guard save more lives?

Yet, it would have been a lot better than $40,000.

$40,000 will not cover 6 months of a Civil engineers salary.
How would that have helped.

Again, As I posted to Geoff, we can change words around all day long. It won't change either of our thinking. I know none will change mine. We can cut and paste to make sentences fit exactly we want to say all day long, it won't change a thing.

This best thing we can do is pray for the people and hope that it never happens to us.

[bicker]

Yet, it would have been a lot better than $40,000. $40,000 will not cover 6 months of a Civil engineers salary.I said $400,000 would have been a lot better than $40,000.

[drakethib]

Your memory about Andrew appears vague at best. GWH Bush was lambasted for the slow FEMA response the Andrew affected areas. It took NINE DAYS for the Dept of Defense to process the repsonse request to Andrew. With Katrina there were boots on the ground in 24 hours and full scale relief efforts in 3 days.

My memory serves me very well. I was one of the "boots on the ground" before Andrew hit, unless I had one very bad dream for several weeks. No it was not picture perfect, but it was a heck of a lot more organized then this.

My memory of history is vague, but can some remind of a time within the last 25 or even 50 years were a hurricane a subsequent flood basically destroyed a major city the size of N.O. and tell me what the response time was so we can compare?

That is a pretty easy statement to make seeing that none of your family is MIA and you keep hearing about bodies floating around. It never happened before so how can you compare. We had one member missing until yesterday when we got a phone call saying she was okay. It is very scary and the thoughts race through your mind like you would not believe. I could not imagine having just lost everything and then wondering where my family is, but wait, I must sit back to make sure that congress signs a paper before theycan rescue me. Let see if that was a member of your family how understanding you would be.

I bet many of your relatives have not had their city population double over the last 2 days and are not at grocery stores right now seeing a bunch of empty shelves right now either. Mine are.

A President can issue an executive order designed to usurp the authority of local officials. Do you really want that precedent being set?

If that what it takes to save lives yes.

The military can fly OVER any city they want. It's setting foot on the ground and taking over local authority that is the issue. Again, I'm not sure that's the sort of precent you want to be setting.

So know we should be afraid of our own military helping us?

Funny how we throw them ticker tape parades after they have been to a foreign land, but everyone is scared that we will turn into a police state if they are helping our friends and families.

True, but I think bicker's point is, what would you have been willing to pay for, from a federal tax perspective, sitting comfortably in your home and not seeing disasters daily on TV? Everything cost money. Sure, we all might say "hell yes! I'm willing to pay more to help these people". But 3-5-10 years from now when this fades from people's memory (Hurricane David, Hurricane Andrew anyone. Who of those that didn't live through it, remember it?)

I agree here. Everyone is willing to say they would pay whatever, but we all would be griping if we had to pay one more cent in sales tax to fund these projects.


Again, as I said in my other post. You guys aren't going to change my mind, escpecially since you are all quite safe in your home state (I know, my choice to live near the Gulf), and it is not your friends and families going through all of this.

Again, no flames here. We just don't see eye to eye on this one. HEY BICKERS, i FIGUREDOUT HOW TO DO THE QUOTE THING !!!!!! :badpc:

[drakethib]

I said $400,000 would have been a lot better than $40,000.


Ooppss.

My Bad. $400,000 can possibly cover 2.5 engineers salary plus benefits for a year.

They can put a study together for the goverment saying that New Orleans is under sea level and if a hurricane strong enough came by, New Orleans would flood.

Oh wait. They already have that study.

Not sure what line of work you are in, but if it is Industry, Construction, or Engineering, you know that $400,000 per year covers nothing.

I have one department with 3 people whose annual budget approx $370,000 and the only equipment they use is a couple of PC's.

[drakethib]

I think it is the other way around: Folks are saying what they're saying at the grocery, church, etc., because that's the information that they're being exposed to.

Then maybe it is time to change the Constitution. The Republicans would have a bit of a problem, though, with giving up States' Rights.


Yep. It is the Republicans fault. I knew it would come out. LOL

[Geoff_M]

No one is saying we declared war on New Orleans, I think you know what I meant by that statement.Sorry for the cheeky retort to your off base analogy. If Rummy's advice was followed in this case, it could have made the situation worse and not better. I don't view the the Sec.'s advice as a "universal truth".

My memory serves me very well. I was one of the "boots on the ground" before Andrew hit, unless I had one very bad dream for several weeks. No it was not picture perfect, but it was a heck of a lot more organized then this.OK, I think you're on to something here that may be useful today. bicker is 100% dead on. GHW Bush suffered a major political blow in the 1992 election over the federal response to Andrew. The press was all over his case. But to you, someone actually there, what you saw didn't quite mesh with what was being reported in the press. OK, now flash forward to now... do you think this disconnect could be happening again?

See if this sounds familiar:The White House well remembers the criticism former President Bush received for a slow response to Hurricane Andrew in August 1992. "Where in the hell is the cavalry on this one? For God's sake, where are they," Miami-Dade emergency operations director Kate Hale said at the time.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/08/Decision2004/Hurricanes_roil_the_p.shtml

A full "blow-by-blow" of the Andrew response can be found here: http://www.aaiusa.org/wwatch_archives/090792.htm

[Jamesbyr]

Ah, forgive. The OP had just OD'd on FOX's early coverage. My advice: wake up and look again.

[bicker]

Ooppss. My Bad.Apology accepted. So again, the problem is that we, the American people, were not inclined to spend what was necessary to push forward with anything significant that would have alleviated this disaster.

Then maybe it is time to change the Constitution. The Republicans would have a bit of a problem, though, with giving up States' Rights. Yep. It is the Republicans fault. I knew it would come out. LOLI support States Right.

What's your point?

[drakethib]

Apology accepted. So again, the problem is that we, the American people, were not inclined to spend what was necessary to push forward with anything significant that would have alleviated this disaster.

I support States Right.

What's your point?

And the Democrats would just be fine and dandy with it all?

[drakethib]

[QUOTE=Geoff_M]Sorry for the cheeky retort to your off base analogy. If Rummy's advice was followed in this case, it could have made the situation worse and not better. I don't view the the Sec.'s advice as a "universal truth".

Nor do I, but we did it in Irag, we should be able to do it here.

OK, I think you're on to something here that may be useful today. bicker is 100% dead on. GHW Bush suffered a major political blow in the 1992 election over the federal response to Andrew. The press was all over his case. But to you, someone actually there, what you saw didn't quite mesh with what was being reported in the press. OK, now flash forward to now... do you think this disconnect could be happening again?

It is Possible, but I have too many relatives down south not seeing anything being done.

Just to throw something in the mix here, when GWB Sr. lost the election, didn't his opponents slam him for the "No New Taxes" statement and then not taking out Sadaam? In all honesty, I really don't remeber Hurricane Andrew being a factor.

[Geoff_M]

Just to throw something in the mix here, when GWB Sr. lost the election, didn't his opponents slam him for the "No New Taxes" statement and then not taking out Sadaam? In all honesty, I really don't remeber Hurricane Andrew being a factor.Andrew was certainly not the only political issue that harmed GHW Bush... you mentioned a couple of other ones. But, the Andrew response criticism, coming so close to the election, was probably the thing that diminished the last hopes for Bush. Any "last minute surge" hopes to close the gap were history.

[drakethib]

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/hurricanes_and_tropical_storms

[totalia]

That "security blanket" is not unequivocal. What we, as taxpayers, pay for is a specific level of security, not unrestricted security.


If that level means that thousands are going to die because they can't respond fast enough (ie: In under 4 days) then that level isn't high enough.

[totalia]

Wow nice response.

So without trying to start a flame war here are my rdeponses. Please be patient though I am unsure on how to do those quote boxes.

The security blanket may be in theory and as you said we may not be entitled to unrestricted security, but the end result is FEMA has failed and they have failed miserably. After seeing al of this how comfortable are you with the thoughts of these individuals coordinating a relief effort in your area should a catataphore happen in your area?

As for accountability, just for instance, if you are the boss where your company works for and the company starts to fail, where does the buck stop? In every M&A that I have been involved with directly or indirectly, if the leader of the company is not performing, he or she is will be replaced.

As for finding out how many emergency response personnel Louisiana and if they have more then FEMA has I will check, but I will ask where you got this fact from because I doubt this very seriously but do not have the backing to dismiss this claim. I lived in Louisiana for 28 years and do not remember seeing an abundance of ERP.

Last, we FEMA is an acronym for Federal Emergency Management Agency. The description is that local municipalities must prepare for their own disasters; I can agree with that, however, I cannot buy into the fact that there were so many disasters that they could not figure out where to start. IMHO, Common Sense dictates that once the winds and rain from the hurricane cease look at the areas affected. While Biloxi & Alabama had flooding, it was no where the extent that New Orleans would be facing. Send Provisions (Food & Water) to all affected areas, look what could possibly cause more destruction (The New Orleans area has a Petroleum and Chemical Industry that has items stored that could wreck havoc greatly if ignited) and concentrate your relief efforts accordingly with the resources at hand as needed most urgent first.

"It is the responsibility of municipalities to plan for their own disasters, and rely on the Federal government only to marshall resources of other agencies (including other municipalities), to come to the aid of a municipality that is overwhelmed by a disaster". I agree. Why the heck did it take them so darn long to call up additional resources from the military?

We are seeing where Wal-Mart sent 3 truckloads of water the day after the storm and FEMA turned them away. Stories like this are being repeated from the Mayor, Parish Manager, etc. Does anyone think the leadership of the affected communities is making this stuff up?

For cripes sake, bureaucracy caused many lives to be lost. Common Sense was not used. Again, FEMA is an acronym for Federal Emergency Management Agency. They did not MANAGE this situation. They did not respond to the situation. That reacted to the situation.
Darn near every OEP person in the Gulf Coast is saying how much of a cluster flip FEMAs response has been to their respective assignments.

As for your last statement regarding more government security, no one is saying we want a police state, but when something like this happens, we should be able to rely on a government on which we support and who is supposed to be a representation of the people who live in the U.S.

It is very heartbreaking to see this happening to the people of my home state. I pray this never happens to yours.

Very well said. I agree with you. And I'm very sorry for whats happening to the whole area.

[totalia]

I hope its not 10, 000. I really do.

[bicker]

If that level means that thousands are going to die because they can't respond fast enough (ie: In under 4 days) then that level isn't high enough.I don't necessarily disagree. Yet, I don't see any movement whatsoever with regard to avoiding such disasters in the future, where they're likely to occur, such as San Francisco. I suspect that, as we always do, we'll fix what's broken, and pay a little lip-service to preventing such catastrophes in the future, and then proceed to do nothing.

[drakethib]

Hmmmmmmm.

[sodaseller]

Interesting observations in tempore non susupecto Link (http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2004-09-22/cover.html) In a May 15, 2001, appearance before a Senate appropriations subcommittee, Allbaugh signaled that the new, stripped-down approach would be applied at FEMA as well. "Many are concerned that federal disaster assistance may have evolved into both an oversized entitlement program and a disincentive to effective state and local risk management," he said. "Expectations of when the federal government should be involved and the degree of involvement may have ballooned beyond what is an appropriate level."



Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.) proposed legislation to merge several federal agencies into a new security-focused umbrella department. At first, the White House opposed the plan, calling it impractical and unnecessary.

But then, as former counter-terrorism czar Richard Clarke explained in his recent book Against all Enemies, "the White House legislative affairs office began to take a head count on Capitol Hill." Realizing that the Lieberman Bill would likely pass both houses of Congress, with no credit given to the White House, in June 2002 the administration changed its tune, calling for a new Department of Homeland Security (DHS) that would be even larger than the one Lieberman had proposed.

Under the administration's plan, 22 government agencies, FEMA among them, would be merged into the DHS. Analysts in and out of government warned against subsuming the emergency agency's vital functions in a new super-department. "There are concerns of FEMA losing its identity as an agency that is quick to respond to all hazards and disasters," the agency's inspector general noted in a memo to Allbaugh. Congress' Government Accountability Office judged the merger to be a "high-risk" endeavor for FEMA, and the Brookings Institution, a leading Washington think-tank, cautioned in a report that such a move could hobble the agency's natural disaster programs. "While a merged FEMA might become highly adept at preparing for and responding to terrorism, it would likely become less effective in performing its current mission in case of natural disasters as time, effort and attention are inevitably diverted to other tasks within the larger organization."
But Bush's proposal won out, and a shift in priorities from natural disasters to counter-terrorism immediately took hold. In its 2002 budget, the White House doubled FEMA's budget to $6.6 billion, but of that sum, $3.5 billion was earmarked for equipment and training to help states and localities respond to terrorist attacks.

[bsnyder]

Interesting observations in tempore non susupecto Link (http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2004-09-22/cover.html)

Not applicable to what caused the problems in NOLA.

[sodaseller]

Not applicable to what caused the problems in NOLA.
Of course not - Occam's Razor has been suspended for the last 4 years - principles of logic go the way of science.

[bsnyder]

Of course not - Occam's Razor has been suspended for the last 4 years - principles of logic go the way of science.

Yep, it has been suspended, and replaced by BDS.

So mitigation grants (that wouldn't have even been spent yet ) and rebuilding funds, would have made a difference in this situation?

Please explain.

[sodaseller]

So let's see - reducing expectations as to the urgency of federal response, and reducing FEMA's role as disaster response, have no effect on FEMA responding too slowly and performing inadequately in disaster response.

As logical as the Laffer Cirve

[bsnyder]

So let's see - reducing expectations as to the urgency of federal response, and reducing FEMA's role as disaster response, have no effect on FEMA responding too slowly and performing inadequately in disaster response.

As logical as the Laffer Cirve

So, you really think that's what caused the problems in NOLA?

I guess that's as logical as a spoonfed liberal can get.

[sodaseller]

So, you really think that's what caused the problems in NOLA?

I guess that's as logical as a spoonfed liberal can get.
Logical to me - but we stand in awe of your demonstrated superior powers of ratiocination, as a self-professed "information junkie".

[bsnyder]

Logical to me - but we stand in awe of your demonstrated superior powers of ratiocination, as a self-professed "information junkie".

And we stand in awe of your ability to use a dictionary.

[sodaseller]

And to believe that there are some that believe that Hurricane Katrina caused flooding in New Orleans. Don't these mushheads realize that it was the levee breach?

(note problem of assuming intervening proximate cause unrelated to original causitive factor)

[bsnyder]

And to believe that there are some that believe that Hurricane Katrina caused flooding in New Orleans. Don't these mushheads realize that it was the levee breach?

(note problem of assuming intervening proximate cause unrelated to original causitive factor)

And some mushrooms believe that the levee breachs occured because of the Bush Administration's lack of funding.

Go look up the history of the Industrial Canal (the one that affected the 9th Ward) and the resulting legal action by the residents of that area.

[sodaseller]

Don't insert tenets of a syllogism that are not there

[drakethib]

And some mushrooms believe that the levee breachs occured because of the Bush Administration's lack of funding.

Go look up the history of the Industrial Canal (the one that affected the 9th Ward) and the resulting legal action by the residents of that area.

This lack funding was just not by the Bush admin, they have been trying to get help with those levees for forever and a day over the duration of many presidents admin.

[drakethib]

My hometown of Beaumont, Texas was hit very hard during Hurricane Rita.

I put some thoughts here.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=10271467#post10271467