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bonzarella
08-17-2005, 08:25 AM
I was the successful bidder on an auction, seller refused my paypal. After it ended she said she made a mistake and should not have listed all items together. Wanted me to pick one or the other, also misrepresented the size. I e-mailed(2 days ago) her stating I would like the auction as advertised & have not had a response. Can anyone recommend what to do in this situation? I am new to Ebay and could use some help. Thanks :flower:

DiscussDisney
08-17-2005, 08:40 AM
Honestly, there is not much you can do. If a seller refuses to complete the transaction, you can file a complaint with ebay and paypal, but that will most likely do nothing unless the seller has had many previous complaints.

Feralpeg
08-17-2005, 08:40 AM
Tell her that you purchased what she advertised. It is not your fault that she listed it incorrectly. If she still refuses to give you what you purchased, tell her you will be leaving her a negative feedback and that you will be contacting ebay regarding her auction.

kelleigh1
08-17-2005, 10:37 AM
I would definitely contact ebay. Her listing and your purchase is a contract. It is not your fault that she made a mistake in advertising. You bought what she listed and that contract is binding. I would definitely contact ebay.

Crazy4Disney06
08-17-2005, 01:42 PM
I would contact Ebay and file a report with them, if she has had (or once she gets) 3 complaints she will be baned from Ebay.
I'm sorry you had a bad seller. It's not your falut she listed it wrong.

gypsydoodlebug
08-17-2005, 07:20 PM
Make sure you keep ALLLLL your emails as well.

Laurajean1014
08-17-2005, 07:26 PM
Technically, she committed internet fraud. If she doesn't sell you the items as she listed them for the price your won it for, it is a federal offense.

Contact eBay and the seller to let them know exactly what you will do, if they do not cooperate.

Here is the address for fraud: http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp

DMRick
08-17-2005, 08:52 PM
Even if no money changed hands? I have bought from many a catalog and been told they no longer had the item. In fact I bought from the post office and they cancelled my order just recently, and I had already paid. I find this strange that this would be a federal offense. Can you point me to where you are finding that info? Might be useful someday.

Technically, she committed internet fraud. If she doesn't sell you the items as she listed them for the price your won it for, it is a federal offense.

HayGan
08-17-2005, 09:15 PM
Even if no money changed hands? I have bought from many a catalog and been told they no longer had the item. In fact I bought from the post office and they cancelled my order just recently, and I had already paid. I find this strange that this would be a federal offense. Can you point me to where you are finding that info? Might be useful someday.

An auction is different from a catalog. An auction implies possession of a specific item and that transfer of the item will take place once final bid/payment is received. It is most definately internet fraud to list an item which you do not have or do not intend to transfer to a winning bidder when all terms of the sale are met. Sellers/buyers remorse is not a legal dismissal of the contract existing between the buyer and seller.

DMRick
08-17-2005, 09:46 PM
Wow, an enterprising lawyer could make a fortune just handling eBay sellers who are no longer for various reasons able to complete a sale. And yet, no one has taken on this cause? I don't buy that it's a federal offense when no money has changed hands. I'd have to see the statue. Of course the key words can be "do not intend". Perhaps this person did intend to sell it but for who knows why, changed her mind. I've seen people change their minds for many reasons, and I've never heard of anyone, who has not been paid gotten anything more than a neg. Can you point me to something legal that shows this offense? Thanks.

PS I did go to the site shown above and the first thing they want to know?..total monetary loss. I think you'd have a rare chance to charge someone for not giving you something they didn't take money for..

*******
Information concerning your contact with the subject

Total monetary loss, method of contact(s), date of contact(s), monetary loss resulting from each contact, a description of your payment transaction(s) with the subject, a narrative description of the contact(s), general narrative description of the fraud, information on witnesses, information on other victims, identification of law enforcement or government agencies you have contacted concerning this matter, and any other information you believe to be pertinent.
***********
An auction is different from a catalog. An auction implies possession of a specific item and that transfer of the item will take place once final bid/payment is received. It is most definately internet fraud to list an item which you do not have or do not intend to transfer to a winning bidder when all terms of the sale are met. Sellers/buyers remorse is not a legal dismissal of the contract existing between the buyer and seller.

seashoreCM
08-17-2005, 10:08 PM
If you the buyer meet all the conditions of the auction and the seller does not (for example list PayPal as an accepted payment method but refuse PayPal for no good reason) then you do not have to pay using other methods. The transaction will then die.

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

HayGan
08-17-2005, 10:15 PM
From the FederalTradeCommission www.ftc.gov

Internet Auctions: A Guide for Buyers and Sellers (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/online/auctions.htm#legal)

Know Your Legal Obligations

Under federal law, you're required to advertise your product or service and the terms of the sale honestly and accurately. You can't place "shill" bids on your item to boost the price or offer false testimonials about yourself in the comment section of Internet auction sites.


You're prohibited from auctioning illegal goods. While many auction sites monitor their sites to ensure that illegal items are not being offered, the responsibility for ensuring that a sale is legal rests with the seller and buyer. Some auction sites post a list of prohibited items as a guide.


You are required to ship merchandise within the time frame specified during the auction, or, if a time frame is not specified, within 30 days. If you can't meet the shipping commitment, you must give the buyer an opportunity to cancel the order for a full refund or agree to the new shipping date. To learn more about your responsibilities when shipping products, see A Business Guide to the Federal Trade Commission's Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule.


Wow, an enterprising lawyer could make a fortune just handling eBay sellers who are no longer for various reasons able to complete a sale. And yet, no one has taken on this cause? I don't buy that it's a federal offense when no money has changed hands. I'd have to see the statue. Of course the key words can be "do not intend". Perhaps this person did intend to sell it but for who knows why, changed her mind. I've seen people change their minds for many reasons, and I've never heard of anyone, who has not been paid gotten anything more than a neg. Can you point me to something legal that shows this offense? Thanks.

PS I did go to the site shown above and the first thing they want to know?..total monetary loss. I think you'd have a rare chance to charge someone for not giving you something they didn't take money for..

*******
Information concerning your contact with the subject

Total monetary loss, method of contact(s), date of contact(s), monetary loss resulting from each contact, a description of your payment transaction(s) with the subject, a narrative description of the contact(s), general narrative description of the fraud, information on witnesses, information on other victims, identification of law enforcement or government agencies you have contacted concerning this matter, and any other information you believe to be pertinent.
***********

It's A Happy Day
08-17-2005, 10:35 PM
If she had made an "error" in her listing she had the opportunity to cancel the auction. Just because someone may not fetch the price expected does not give said person the right to say sorry but it was only choose a part of what is pictured. She did commit fraud if the auction was listed as the whole package and she now chooses to break it apart to maybe even relist separate items and make more money. It doesn't sound like the seller has lost possession of any items in sale but that she now doesn't want to complete the sale in it's entirety due to maybe the final price??? I would personally keep all correspondence and contact ebay as well. I would not leave a negative feedback until all venues of trying to work things out have been tried as alot of people will also leave retaliatory negative feedback that they did work things out with you but customer jumped the gun on leaving nf for them. If no response after a suitable amount of time with no resolution then leave -fb - maybe 30 days - as many people do go on vacation at this time of year so you really don't know if she is ignoring emails or just hasn't checked them - give the benefit but be persistant Ie:email the actions you will be taking if she does not respond within 7 business days etc.

DMRick
08-17-2005, 10:58 PM
Show me the part where, if no money has changed hands what you posted is pertinent. I've read all of this, and it's been discussed on other posts. In the OP's case, it won't apply...no money was accepted. Nothing illegal happened in this bid. Do you know how many "joke" auctions are up on eBay daily? Can you imagine if the people who bid and tried to pay, and it was refused, had a legal case, how tied up all the lawyers would be (not to mention we'd miss some really funny auctions). I think you are not reading the OP's message..her money was refused. There is no law (or at least not one I can fine) that states a sale must go through or it's a federal offense, if no money has changed hands. Nothing was lost to the bidder. I think it stinks, but I can't see where it's a federal case..or even any case for that matter.

From the FederalTradeCommission www.ftc.gov

Internet Auctions: A Guide for Buyers and Sellers (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/online/auctions.htm#legal)

Know Your Legal Obligations

Under federal law, you're required to advertise your product or service and the terms of the sale honestly and accurately. You can't place "shill" bids on your item to boost the price or offer false testimonials about yourself in the comment section of Internet auction sites.


You're prohibited from auctioning illegal goods. While many auction sites monitor their sites to ensure that illegal items are not being offered, the responsibility for ensuring that a sale is legal rests with the seller and buyer. Some auction sites post a list of prohibited items as a guide.


You are required to ship merchandise within the time frame specified during the auction, or, if a time frame is not specified, within 30 days. If you can't meet the shipping commitment, you must give the buyer an opportunity to cancel the order for a full refund or agree to the new shipping date. To learn more about your responsibilities when shipping products, see A Business Guide to the Federal Trade Commission's Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule.

DMRick
08-17-2005, 11:08 PM
She did commit fraud if the auction was listed as the whole package and she now chooses to break it apart to maybe even relist separate items and make more money. .
What kind of fraud is it, when she accepted no money? She changed her mind. While it may be against eBay rules..I know of no law she broke. She can be reported to eBay, and they'll send you the Internet Fraud Complaint center that someone posted here..but once you start filling out their forms, you'll see they want to know how much money you are out. In this case, nada. Not against the law to change your mind if no money has changed hands. Those steps eBay shows are for buyers..and until you pay, you aren't a buyer. Don't get me wrong..I think it stinks, but there really is no recourse other than to leave a neg, and the report may get the person suspended if it's happened several times..here is the site for all the seller non performance. Most long time eBayers will tell you that eBay doesn't want to lose any revenue. So unless the seller does this often, she'll just get a warning.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-non-performance.html

It's A Happy Day
08-17-2005, 11:21 PM
Quoted from ebay...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seller Non-Performance

When a seller lists an item on eBay, and a buyer bids for and wins that item, the seller and buyer have entered into a contract. Both members are expected to honor that contract. In accordance with that contract, the seller may not:

Fail to deliver an item for which payment was accepted.
Significantly misrepresent an item by not meeting the terms and item description outlined in the listing.
Refuse to accept payment for an item at the end of a successful sale.
Refuse to accept a buyer’s PayPal payment using a credit card if the seller included the PayPal logo in the listing which signifies the seller will accept PayPal payments. Sellers are not permitted to state in their listings that PayPal payments made via credit card will not be accepted.

Violations of this policy by a Seller may result in a range of actions, including:

Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Account suspension
Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
Loss of PowerSeller status
Referral to Law Enforcement

A buyer who believes that a seller has not honored a contract should read the Additional Information section below to understand what remedies are available to the buyer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jjust refusing payment for a successfully won transaction is against the rules of ebay. A seller should/would realize their "mistake" and correct or cancel their listing before ending it with a winning bid! I realize that it will probably just mean a slap on the wrist for the seller or possible banning from selling if a repeat offender as well as a nf in their rating system.

kizmac
08-17-2005, 11:31 PM
Honestly, there is not much you can do. If a seller refuses to complete the transaction, you can file a complaint with ebay and paypal, but that will most likely do nothing unless the seller has had many previous complaints.


Yes, unfortunately there is nothing you can really do other than what the above poster suggested. Do be sure to file complaints with Ebay and Paypal asap though and leave negative feedback so atleast others will know her game. Sorry you didn't get what you won. That really stinks that she won't live up to her end of the deal. :sad2:

DMRick
08-17-2005, 11:52 PM
I agree it's an eBay violation (and they usually don't do anything about it, unless it's happened often), but I don't agree it's against the law or a federal offense, when no money has changed hands. Thanks for posting it all..I was lazy and just gave the url.

QUOTE=It's A Happy Day]
Jjust refusing payment for a successfully won transaction is against the rules of ebay. A seller should/would realize their "mistake" and correct or cancel their listing before ending it with a winning bid! I realize that it will probably just mean a slap on the wrist for the seller or possible banning from selling if a repeat offender as well as a nf in their rating system.[/QUOTE]

allyphoe
08-18-2005, 01:09 AM
I don't agree it's against the law or a federal offense, when no money has changed hands.

If there's a current acceptance of the auction price at the end of the auction, the seller's listing becomes an offer to sell, and you've got a legally binding contract. If the buyer fails to tender payment, the buyer is in breach, so long as the seller tendered shipment. If the seller fails to tender shipment, the seller is in breach, so long as the buyer tendered payment. (There are exceptions for things like impossibility of performance, but none of them appear to apply here.) They can agree to mutually rescind the contract, but neither can unilaterally rescind the contract.

Here, the buyer tendered payment, the seller repudiated the contract, and the seller is in breach.

The buyer's damages in this case are the cost of buying the auction items elsewhere less the ending auction price. So if she'd won the auction for $5, and then bought the same items elsewhere but the best price she could get was $20, she'd have a cause of action for $15.

Now, it's probably not worth it to sue over low-dollar stuff like that, but if you add a couple of zeros to the end, it is.

Not a lawyer, but I had 3 credit hours of Uniform Commercial Code over the summer, and this is pretty basic stuff.

Phoebe :)

DMRick
08-18-2005, 01:20 AM
Payment was never accepted. I stand by what I said. This has been batted around for years on the eBay boards, and believe me, some of the items not delivered would have been well worth it to take to court. But find someone willing to tell a judge no money changed hands, but they want the item or worth anyway. I'd have to see case law to believe it it's a federal law (I'm open to reading it, if you have a reference). The girl said she made a mistake...was never a law against that, that I have seen.

DMRick
08-18-2005, 01:22 AM
If there's a current acceptance of the auction price at the end of the auction, the seller's listing becomes an offer to sell, and you've got a legally binding contract.
Not that I think it would be a leagally binding contract anyway..but was there? An acceptance of the auction price? Just curious if you think there was. And of course anyone can sue at anytime..it's the question of ..would you win. I think not, not as long as no money was accepted.

allyphoe
08-18-2005, 01:56 AM
they want the item or worth anyway.

You don't get the item or the worth. You get the difference between the contract price and the price you had to pay to get the same thing somewhere else.

I'd have to see case law to believe it it's a federal law (I'm open to reading it, if you have a reference).

Section 2 of the UCC. 2-328 deals with auctions, and at what point items and/or bids can be withdrawn. 2-711 and 2-712 deals with the issue at hand. http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/

The UCC isn't Federal law (I'm not the "Federal offense" poster), but Article 2 has been adopted by every state (with the possible exception of Louisiana).

The girl said she made a mistake...was never a law against that, that I have seen.

Unilateral mistakes don't make a contract voidable. http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/mutual.htm has a good explanation thereof.

Phoebe :)

DMRick
08-18-2005, 03:13 AM
Please..show me where it says, this is applicable, if no money has traded hands. I've read it and read it..I can't see it.
I know it's late, and maybe I'm reading it wrong. but are you sure this isn't saying, if the buyer paid for the goods, and didn't get them, and has to buy them elsewhere, he can charge the seller the difference to get the goods..for the substitution of goods he didn't get?
As far as 2-328, isn't this talking about a live auction (I can't find the word "internet" there anywhere)? I know live auctions have very specific rules. I don't think that applies here. But then I'm not a lawyer, or a live auction person (although I do go to them), so I may not be reading it the way it is meant. I don't think my two semester Business law counts for much LOL.

I do appreciate your finding this...was good reading, but I still haven't seen anything that changes my mind on an internet eBay auction. Since I haven't seen anyone get sued over this yet, I've got to believe that a person can change their mind, by saying they made a mistake and although against eBay rules, I'm not reading it's against the law (federal, or otherwise).

As far as the Yale piece on mistakes..sounds to me like they aren't sure which mistakes should be allowed to be voided either LOL. Too many "depends".
Maybe in this case this ruled on a unilateral mistake, "the effect of the mistake is such that enforcement of the contract would be unconscionable,"

Maybe the seller didn't realize she shouldn't have sold the items together. In any case, I think the conclusion is interesting. Thanks again.

HayGan
08-18-2005, 06:41 AM
Under federal law, you're required to advertise your product or service and the terms of the sale honestly and accurately.

To falsely list or misrepresent items is a violation of federal law! It is clearly stated in the first statement. While it is prosecutable, law enforcement is less inclined to persue cases in which money has not changed hands.

DMRick
08-18-2005, 09:13 AM
To falsely list or misrepresent items is a violation of federal law! It is clearly stated in the first statement. While it is prosecutable, law enforcement is less inclined to persue cases in which money has not changed hands.
Which federal law would this be, where someone realized it was incorrect, so didn't sell it? I thought it would only be bad, if a sale went through. How would this be against the law, if they didn't take any money for it? How would it even be prosecuted if there was no loss? It's not like attempted murder, where you can show intent. Like I said, this has been argued on ebay boards for years, but no one can show where something like this has been prosecuted.
IMO opinion, better for the OP to just go throught he eBay channels, and know this happens, and other than report her, there is nothing she can do.
There are worse things, like selling an empty nintendo box (careful wording on the ad)..talk about misrepresentation..and even that didn't get prosecuted to my knowledge. Heck, sometimes you actually pay and never get the item and still can't do anything, because they sent an empty box with delivery confirmation. She may be lucky her money was not accepted.

allyphoe
08-18-2005, 11:39 AM
Please..show me where it says, this is applicable, if no money has traded hands. I've read it and read it..I can't see it.

Try a plain-English explanation: http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/ethi0400.htm
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/aug02/ethi0802.htm

if the buyer paid for the goods, and didn't get them, and has to buy them elsewhere, he can charge the seller the difference to get the goods..for the substitution of goods he didn't get?

Your scenarios doesn't make the buyer whole, though, and the point of "cover" is to make the buyer whole.

Your scenario:
A wins an auction item for $100, and pays B. B refuses to ship. A buys the identical item for $150 from C, and pays C. A is now out $250 for the item B contracted to sell for $100. You suggest B owes A $50, meaning A pays $200 for the item, and B has been unjustly enriched by $50. Even if B refunds the entire $100, A has still lost $50.

My scenario:
A wins an auction item for $100, and tenders payment to B. B refuses to ship. A buys the identical item for $150 from C, and pays C. A is now out $150 for the item B contracted to sell for $100. I suggest B owes C $50, meaning A pays the agreed-upon $100 for the item.


As far as 2-328, isn't this talking about a live auction (I can't find the word "internet" there anywhere)?

An auction is an auction. Unless you can find something that says "except for internet auctions," general principles of contract law apply. There is no special internet law, despite common misconceptions to the contrary.

Maybe in this case this ruled on a unilateral mistake, "the effect of the mistake is such that enforcement of the contract would be unconscionable,"

Unless it would drive the seller into bankruptcy, I suspect not. ;)

Phoebe :)

DMRick
08-18-2005, 12:58 PM
My scenario:
A wins an auction item for $100, and tenders payment to B. B refuses to ship. A buys the identical item for $150 from C, and pays C. A is now out $150 for the item B contracted to sell for $100. I suggest B owes C $50, meaning A pays the agreed-upon $100 for the item.


Nice scenario and if it happened like that, I would agree. But it didn't Seller accepted no money..no money changed hands, and buyer still has the money.


An auction is an auction. Unless you can find something that says "except for internet auctions," general principles of contract law apply. There is no special internet law, despite common misconceptions to the contrary.


Can you show me a case where an internet auction has been treated the same as a live auction? I think you'll find most lawsuits ended up being under mail fraud. Even the big shill bidding case, was tried on mail fraud, as was the antique fraud here in Southern NYS. It started out being an auction issue, but it didn't pan out, and ended up being mail fraud. But even in those instances, money was paid and accepted.

DMRick
08-18-2005, 01:17 PM
And I'm not really sure what this was suppose to mean..it's an entirely different situation..

http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/aug02/ethi0802.htm

As far as http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/ethi0400.htm, yes he makes a good case..however, the seller did not accept the bid in this case. Once money had been accepted and she/he had not delivered, there would imo be a case. Unlike a "live" auction, the buyer has to wait to be told..ok, it's over. eBay has set this up themselves by allowing it. Unless the seller is habitual, eBay allows it to happen, setting a precident.

And in any case, I asked how this was breaking a federal law (that was the start of this conversation)..at the very most, it would be civil..would she win with no money changing hands? I doubt it, I think the judge would consider it a waste of the court's time. If this were a live auction, I would think differently, but it's not. It's a marketplace on line. Have you been on the eBay boards when this has been discussed ad nauseum? Most all of the places you have posted have been there. I'd love to see a lawyer familar with on line auctions tackle this. Even after all the discussions on the eBay boards, none have come forward, and no minds have been changed.

bonzarella
08-18-2005, 02:39 PM
thanks for all the help. I heard from her this a.m. and looks like she will come through with all the items. All I wanted was a halloween costume for my kid, guess I better learn how to sew before next year. Again, THANKS

DMRick
08-18-2005, 03:08 PM
LOL..glad to hear it, and it was fun checking out the do's and don't's. What was she NOT going to include and any idea why she changed her mined?

thanks for all the help. I heard from her this a.m. and looks like she will come through with all the items. All I wanted was a halloween costume for my kid, guess I better learn how to sew before next year. Again, THANKS

montblanc
08-18-2005, 10:22 PM
I would hope you reviewed the seller ratings before buying. I'm very picky and look for 99.5% or higher customer satisfaction. Over 400 transactions so far and no problems...

The seller is obligated to fulfill the terms of the auction, error or not. Your seller sounds very disorganized and disinterested in customer service.

bonzarella
08-19-2005, 01:53 PM
DMRick, first few items listed were some hats and a Disney Peter Pan costume. She wanted me to pick one or other. I was mainly interested in Peter Pan as we are going to MNSSHP :bounce: Thought it would be neat to have the boys(5&6) as PP and Captian Hook, while I of course would be Tink. My sister gets to be Wendy. Thanks to the other posts I stated it was a binding contract. Don't know if that did it or she had a change of heart. I don't really care as long as I get the items. I think she was trying to alter the sale because the Disney costumes tend to draw good money. I realize it is easy to make an error but the listing was for several days, think it would have been caught before it ended. I just don't like being scammed, like everyone else. I have learned so many things from ALL the wonderful DIS people, can't thank you enough. :flower: