NYT - is Disney Magic Slipping?

[KimWDW]

Forgive me if someone already posted this. An article in today's travel section of the New York Times. I'm going to WDW this October for the first time in over five years. I hope the magic isn't slipping. :( It could be just that the author had a bad experience, that people expect too much. Or maybe the people quoted in the article are correct and things aren't the way they used to be five years ago. I don't know. What do you think?

Some Ask if the Disney Magic Is Slipping
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/31/travel/31disney.html?ei=5090&en=bf55d696d9e8cf6e&ex=1280462400&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1122822167-2piglV+8OlQ5EUFEJg+zJg

[bicker]

The other thread is here:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=875471

As I mention in that other thread, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "people expect too much." If the article was all hunky-dory, it probably wouldn't have made it into the NY Times. That's the kind of thing that you'd see in the AAA newsletter, not a newspaper.

[kaabost]

I haven't been to to WDW in 1.5 years but the magic was certainly still there at that time. I do think that people expect too much. I also think that alot of people are determined to have a bad experience.

[hoosll]

My husband and I have been going annually to WDW for the last few years and I do have some concerns .....

1. Growth of number of hotel rooms operated by Disney - the number of rooms on site is staggering as Disney tries to capture every nickel it can from travelers to Orlando .... It has also expanded its convention and sports competition commitments.

2. Employees to service those rooms - where do they ALL come from, how are they trained and monitored. Most of the complaints I read about are as to the cleanliness of rooms and bedding, timeliness of getting into rooms, uncleaned rooms in afternoons, etc. Even with computers, how do they manage to clean rooms so that people CAN check in, clean rooms so people CAN enjoy an afternoon nap, clean some rooms "green" re-use linens, etc.

3. The demise of unions and benefits - what are the incentives for the people who work at Disney's low wages and lack of benefits (medical insurance costs are insane for employers and now rare for employees). The majority of the resort staff is no longer English-speaking. Most are extremely pleasant but there just may not be enough to service ALL the rooms. I work in a store with about 25 different employees daily, at least 2 call in with a problem and miss their shift EVERY day - 8% - that may translate to 8% delay in rooms cleaned.

4. Guests are enjoying a variety of cost options for their vacations but honestly, each family IS spending a large amount of its disposable income (or credit card) on what is usually a MAJOR vacation trip. I am always amazed at the amount of stress this places on the individuals to "get their money's worth" - often dragging around overtired children to overcrowded restaurants and attractions. When I talk to people who are going for the first ever or in many years, I recommend that they do some homework - understand the size of WDW, the transportation systems, the restaurant reservation system and especially FASTPASS. I also tell people that they cannot see and do everything in one trip.

[babar41]

Have you ever heard someone say "I don't watch the news, it's too depressing!" I'm beginning to feel that way too. I am getting so tired of hearing on the news or reading the newspaper about another problem with Disney. Especially when they don't report the final outcome if it was not Disney's fault.

WDW can be a magical place, not just by what the CM's might do for you. People bring their own magic. Expectations are high and I think Disney does a great job of meeting or exceeding those expectations for the most part. Mistakes happen, problems happen, like it or not this is the real world. But as far as I am concerned the magic is not slipping. :wizard:

[jarestel]

I think hoosll has posted some interesting thoughts on this - More people staying on site translates to more people who are hoping to get some of that old Disney "magic". It's still a wonderful place to vacation with your family, but there's no way they can produce "magic" on demand for the number of guestrooms they have to service today.

I think people probably do expect too much when they go to WDW today, but it was Disney themselves who built the "magic of Disney" myth in the first place. Disney is a victim of its own success in this regard.

[cindyfan]

I agree with hoosll on all 4 points!
With the amount of resort rooms they now have .... what kind of quality help can you possibly expect.
WDW employs around 50,000 people!!! Where do these people come from?
Obviously the population of Florida cannot support that alone.
I don't think the "Magic" is gone.... but the quality of help has diminished.
But as a retail manager .... I understand what they are up against.
I feel society itself has a lot to do with it. I have seen over the years how attitudes have changed from the employees being happy to have a job they like.... to "I showed up for work today, so what are you going to do for ME?"
attitudes.
The old cliche "good help is hard to find!" has really shown it's ugly face at WDW.
But when you are faced with NO help vs. "the not so great" at guest service help that we are running into now ...... well think about it.
When we were there in June...... YES we still felt the Magic! But there were a few CMs that annoyed me.... one that was down right rude.
But I look for the ones that make me feel good..... they are still there! :goodvibes And we had a fantastic time!

[mommykds]

I have to disagree with the author of the NYT article. I do not think the "magic" is slipping.

There are more character meet & greet opportunities now more than ever.

The daily maintenance on the parks is well above standard. There are no garbage cans overflowing or toilets that are unusuable to being filthy. There are standards in place that do not allow teenagers (or adults for that matter) to run around half naked through the parks. There are better controls on non smoking areas. The entire "atmosphere" at all the parks is clean & family friendly. (Just go to Six flags & you will see the difference) :crazy2:

The friendliness & helpfulness of the staff cannot be compared to any other theme park. Not every CM sprinkles pixie dust all the time but the majority of them are very pleasant.

When my family vacations at Disney we do not leave the property for the entire stay. I find coming back to the real world quite challenging when our vacation is over. :sad1:

Just my 2 cents...

[chabs]

I definitely think that the magic is slipping. We started going to WDW "regularly" about 10 years ago-back then each hotel had it's own bus so we never had to wait more than 5 or 10 minutes for a bus and we never had to get into an overcrowded bus and stand like a bunch of cattle. Everything was much nicer and cleaner and the customer service was excellent. An example of this was when my grandfather ripped his pants on the door hook in the bathroom at the Carribean-it was his own fault-just an accident and really no fault of Disney's. But when he asked the lady behind the counter for a safety pin-she took his name and room number and they had a big fruit basket delivered to his room when we got back from the park that day. It was a really nice surprise-one that I don't think would happen these days.

Now the prices of things there in general have become ridiculous. I think Disney has become all about money and gotten away from Roy Disney's intentional fun family "magical" destination. I agree that they have overbuilt and gotten too big too fast. Now they just need people to fill the positions-they can't choose the "best" employees because there aren't enough to go around-now they just need employees period-whether they are good or bad-and that takes away from their customer service. It's really too bad too-we go at least once a year because the kids love it. We will always go-but I have to agree "it ain't like it used to be!"

:sad1:

[Skroops]

We went a couple of weeks ago for an impromtu trip. I generally like smaller, more frequent trips. We stayed 5 nights. The CM's and our accomodations were wonderful. We had problems with the other guests, strangely enough. One of the biggest issues were the people who didn't care about WDW rules. I can't tell you how many people were smoking at eye level to my toddler in crowded areas. I finally spoke up and almost got into a fight with some woman appauled that I would ask her to smoke in the smoking area. This is a family place, and common courtesy has went out the window. This makes WDW magic harder to see!
Most people are really nice, but it is the few obnoxious travelers who make themselves known to all of us. This was our frustrating challenge, because we were actually trying not to notice the rudeness of other guests.
Given todays general public, I think WDW does remarkably well! There IS still magic...you just have to look. :banana: :cheer2:

[WDW1st-timers]

I think alot of it has to do with people expecting too much "magic". For us going on our first trip there...I'm not telling the hubby or the kids what to expect as in special magic. If magic happens...it happens....if not oh well we will still have a wonderful time since we are there as a family and we can make our own magic.

[Acklander]

How can Disney create magic when it's an expectation instead of a surprise? I think it's the guests themselves who have lost the magic, not Disney. I look at the number of people here who are disapointed because they didn't receive a towel animal, or didn't get a birthday balloon from Mickey even though they were wearing their pin and let every cm know it was a birthday celebration (not necessarily the birthday itself, but the birthday celebration) or didn't think some of the cm's smiled enough or weren't talkative enough or whatever.
I've been going to Disney World for 30 years now. My first trip was in 74, and we started going regular in 89. There have been changes and growth, that's what it takes for a business to survive. Sometimes we've been surprised with some extra pixie dust from a cm; and it was always a thrill because in every case it was totally unexpected. I've never asked for, nor expected anything beyond what I've paid for - and Disney has never disappointed me. Sometimes things have happened - good and bad, and things didn't go according to plan; but that's ok, that's what makes life interesting.
I'm sure that Disney receives many letters with legitimate complaints; you can't run a company that large without problems coming up here and there; but I'm amazed at the pettiness of things people are willing to write or complain about.

[joliesmom]

To me the magic hasn't slipped but the cleanliness has slipped some. On my last trip in Jan I noticed that the bathrooms weren't always clean and the streets had some gum on them. That is normal in the "real world" but for me it was out of place at Disney. I think the staff handles things as well as they can. Look at how people speak to you if you ask them not to smoke in line. I don't think the magic is lost, some visitors are stealing it from others (ie the infamous "tour" groups). I'll be there no matter what because bottom line is Disney makes me feel good.

[2Xited4Disney]

NO..... and if it has I will pretend like it hasn't...

[mcgrawfan]

How can Disney create magic when it's an expectation instead of a surprise? I think it's the guests themselves who have lost the magic, not Disney. I look at the number of people here who are disapointed because they didn't receive a towel animal, or didn't get a birthday balloon from Mickey even though they were wearing their pin and let every cm know it was a birthday celebration (not necessarily the birthday itself, but the birthday celebration) or didn't think some of the cm's smiled enough or weren't talkative enough or whatever.
I've been going to Disney World for 30 years now. My first trip was in 74, and we started going regular in 89. There have been changes and growth, that's what it takes for a business to survive. Sometimes we've been surprised with some extra pixie dust from a cm; and it was always a thrill because in every case it was totally unexpected. I've never asked for, nor expected anything beyond what I've paid for - and Disney has never disappointed me. Sometimes things have happened - good and bad, and things didn't go according to plan; but that's ok, that's what makes life interesting.
I'm sure that Disney receives many letters with legitimate complaints; you can't run a company that large without problems coming up here and there; but I'm amazed at the pettiness of things people are willing to write or complain about.


I agree. :wizard:

[patrickpiteo]

I think the writer of the NYT story complained so much that he even got his money refunded for his stay.

[pooh2001]

Bad things can happen everywhere. People have different standards.

I think WDW does a wonderful job at the resorts.

There is always normal wear and tear - and if WDW shows up with that extra light bulb or missing soap - just smile and say thank you. It can go along way.

If you really do not like your room - just talk politely with the resort staff.
I am sure something can be done at that resort - or another.
No reason to get all huffy.

The NY Times article may sway some people away from WDW resorts.
So be it.... then more rooms for us to use. ;)

[Troy08]

I think it's a glass/half emoty-glass half full sort of thing. They definately are a victim of thier own success. I still think the theme parks are extremely well kept for the hours of operation and the sheer number of guests. I took a good hard look around this past trip and was Pleasantly surprised at how good everything looked in the parks.

Now the hotels......while I adore staying on site, the sheer number of rooms available almost guarantee that a decrease in quality will occur. Sometimes I felt like I was in a foreign country listening to mousekeeping talk as we went about the resort. Nobody spoke English. Not making any kind of social commentary here-just stating a fact.

It's an age old problem, low wages= typically low performance.

And the biggest problem of all-people expect A LOT for their money. 275.00-300.00 a night and NO towel animals. How could they? :rotfl2:

[rgf207]

Here is my opinions. Not that they matter :)

Your vacation is what you make of it. I do not feel like the Disney Magic is slipping. At any given time at WDW there are Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people at the parks and in the resorts. There is no possible way to make everyone completely happy. A lot of people go in to a WDW vacation expecting complete perfection. That is impossible. Everything is what you make of it. Of course mistakes happen that need to be fixed by the staff and sometimes people need compensation for such errors. And these errors happen. They happen everywhere, not just at WDW. A lot of people today expect something for nothing and they will take any chance they get to lodge a complaint in the hopes of getting something for free. A lot of times this isn't the case, but 90% of the times it's the ones you hear about. Not the great times. That's all I have to say. But i guess i'll fininsh with a little Magic we experienced on our last trip in March


We came out of the Poly after a later dinner at Kona. We went to get on a bus to try to get to MK to get back to our resort. I guess we had a "lost" look on our faces because a bus driver drove up to us and asked us what we were looking for. We told him we were trying to get back to AKL. He said that the park was closed so we would have to get to DTD and take another bus. We said thank you and were about to walk to the DTD bust stop when he told us to hop on board and he drove us back to AKL. I believe this nice gentleman was going on his lunch or dinner break but he took time out of that to drive us back to AKL which he did not have to do. That seemed like magic to me.

[disneytraveler]

Some good observations have come out of the Nyt article by us Disers. For me , i dont think the magic has slipped any. My first time there must have been back in the 1980's and as an adult i was overwhelmed and awed at the beauty and magic of Wdw. Seeing the castle and all for the first time. I have
repeatedly gone back since then, sometimes skipping a year a two but each
time i go i still feel alike a kid. I go back trying different packages and still go on my favorite rides and take time to enjoy things. Rooms are always clean and even saw
the animal shaped linen although did not know if it was for me or not. Last year the Cm at guest service at the Pop was very helpful and friendly.
I told him i was looking for something to do on my last night and thought of
the La NOUBA show . I was not even sure if tickets were still available. Well
he checked the system and there was and i bought a great seat which he recommended. Now thats Magic :wizard:

Cant wait for September to come! :cool1: :earboy2:

[TimothyG]

We just got back and couldn't have had a better time. That article seemed too crazy and very very stretched. I think that it just was a way to get an article up and not the whole truth. Disney World to me seemed thriving and the service was awesome. I guess it just isn't for everyone. And even if he did get a mistake, it isn't like Disney didn't fix it. I mean, computer glitches happen. There is nothing you can do about them, they occur. You just hope that not too much damage occurs. There are mistakes everywhere. But anyway, I found it was nothing short of magical on this trip that I just took.

[PatriciaH]

My mother thinks the CM's were nasty in the 70's when we went and are a lot nicer today! Go figure...

WDW is having a really hard time right now hiring. They are short a ton of people. No one can afford to work for $6.85 an hour here anymore. Homes and rent have gone way up in Cenral Florida. Gas is expensive, food is the same as any big city. I wonder what Disney will do???

[mickey2000]

My mother thinks the CM's were nasty in the 70's when we went and are a lot nicer today! Go figure...

WDW is having a really hard time right now hiring. They are short a ton of people. No one can afford to work for $6.85 an hour here anymore. Homes and rent have gone way up in Cenral Florida. Gas is expensive, food is the same as any big city. I wonder what Disney will do???
They can do the same thing as Willie Wonka did!!!
Finding help like this might be the answer! :rotfl2:

[poohluvr]

I just went on my first trip since I was a kid in June, so I don't have anything to compare it with, but my kids and I were all very impressed with the cleanliness and how nice everyone was. Even the other guests were so nice! We kept striking up conversations everywhere we went. I had one issue with a CM who I thought was very unprofessional, but that was one issue and we were there for a week. Of course there's going to be problems and mix ups from time to time, the CM's are only human. To whine and complain about everything little thing that doesn't go exactly your way is just being ridiculous.

[DutchsMommy]

Just so I understand - this guy got his whole lodging cost refunded because he got an air mattress instead of a roll-away cot? To me it seems like this is what it boils down to. I personally think some people complain because they know if they yell loud enough they will get their way. I personally think that Disney does a great job, given it's size. And I totally agree that you make your own Magic. Anything that happens over and above that is just a bonus (or pixie dust if you will). For our family I can think of no other place that gives us such a care-free (ok so we don't go in peak times lol) and magical vacation and that's why we will return again and again.

[JustInLouisville]

Interesting article. NYT gets alot of exposure.

Some may think Disney needs improvement...some don't. I am open to any opinion as long as it is constructive. If Disney takes this article into consideration and improves on the standards they already have - then we all benefit.

[eclectics]

I do agree that people expect too much. As one of the WDW managers said of some guests "Some things don't go exactly as planned and I get a 7 page letter" (not a exact quote, but you get the idea). If you don't get a towel animal etc. don't make such a big deal about it. It's the little extras like that that are so magical to recieve because they should be surprises and NOT something expected. I also agree that Disney is very short handed and probably hiring people they wouldn't ordinarily hire, so sometimes the CM experience is a bit "unpredictable" should we say? Are the "standards" at Disney the same as 20 years ago, or even 10? Of course not. But they aren't the same anywhere else either, so we really shouldn't single out WDW for being a bit deteriorated. Finally, as to the "crumbling" infrastructure, you have to remember that the MK opened over 30 years ago and the defects, wear and tear, etc. sometimes can't be fixed with a fresh coat of paint anymore. Wood dries out and splits, concrete crumbles, mortar comes loose. A touch up with a paint brush doesn't cut it anymore. Disney is going to have to invest, some time in the near future, with some major renovations, especially in the MK. Is Disney losing the magic? No way! Just don't expect to bathe in Pixie Dust 24/7. A little goes a long way!!!!!!! :wizard:

[TnTsParty]

I do not think Disney has lost the magic. I had be numerous times as a kid (being a Florida native I went alot as a kid and teen) then I had gone with my best friend the year I met my DH - 1995 - and I hadn't been back until March 2004 when I went with my mom, my Dsister, and my Dniece for her 7th bday. It must be some sort of magic that has brought me back again and again - 3 more times with another trip planned in a little over a month. I am in :love: with WDW!!! I never felt this way before when I went so :confused3 it must be the Disney :wizard: Magic!! Also the Disney Magic lured my DH into liking WDW vacations :cool1: So its there - you just have to be able to see it!! ;)

[DeirdreTours]

Are the "standards" at Disney the same as 20 years ago, or even 10? Of course not. But they aren't the same anywhere else either, so we really shouldn't single out WDW for being a bit deteriorated.

I am not sure that is true. Really, upscale hotels have become much more wide spread- with luxurious beds (triple sheeted with ultra soft sheets and down pillows, etc), top notch service, beautiful architecture and fabulous food. I think in general, all of our expectations are higher now.

Also, my expectations are tied, in large part, to price. At $300 a night plus another $200 a day in food, plus ticket cost (for my family of 3 "adults", one "child" and one "infant"), my vacations expectactions are very high. Of course problems happen, but at these prices I expect those problems to resolved pretty quickly and with an apology for the inconvienience. In my opinion, it is in problem solving that Disney now frequently falls short. The polite guest who states calmly that they expect the room they booked, or that dried white gunk on the bathroom wall is not acceptable are pretty much ignored.

[eclectics]

Are the "standards" at Disney the same as 20 years ago, or even 10? Of course not. But they aren't the same anywhere else either, so we really shouldn't single out WDW for being a bit deteriorated.

I am not sure that is true. Really, upscale hotels have become much more wide spread- with luxurious beds (triple sheeted with ultra soft sheets and down pillows, etc), top notch service, beautiful architecture and fabulous food. I think in general, all of our expectations are higher now.

Also, my expectations are tied, in large part, to price. At $300 a night plus another $200 a day in food, plus ticket cost (for my family of 3 "adults", one "child" and one "infant"), my vacations expectactions are very high. Of course problems happen, but at these prices I expect those problems to resolved pretty quickly and with an apology for the inconvienience. In my opinion, it is in problem solving that Disney now frequently falls short. The polite guest who states calmly that they expect the room they booked, or that dried white gunk on the bathroom wall is not acceptable are pretty much ignored.


Disney certainly is not cheap but it is also not a 5 Star Resort or Hotel. The hotel type you have described will run you at least $500.00 a night just for the room, at least in my neck of the woods. Yes, for that money, I would expect a lot! As for CM service, I think that Disney has to make do with what they have. I do admit that they are spreading their resources and personnel thin and with lack of proper training, a lot of issues are not getting addressed and that is not acceptable. I still say this lack of staff and standards is not just a Disney problem, or a hotel problem for that matter. Go into Macy's and try to find someone to help you or even ring you up! It's not the same as it used to be. Are higher wages the answer? Maybe, maybe not. That's another debate.

[DISUNC]

The only difference with WDW 5 years ago & now is the age of their CM's. To me, they use to be mostly middleaged, now most of them seem to be early 20's.

Or Am I just getting older.

However I have witnessed NO lower quality of service at all from any CM.

[dixipixi]

I think people often compare apples to oranges and that leads to disappointment.

What I mean is this...my trips as a child with my parents were far more magical than the ones I've taken as an adult (even though I've had the wonderful experience of taking my child). When I didn't have to pay for anything, or worry about anything at home....everything was a lot more magical :rotfl2:

I can also say in respect to the hotels, it does make a difference where you stay. I have stayed both off site and on. There is definitely more magic when you stay on site. There is also a huge difference amongst the Disney hotels themselves. Our two best hotel experiences happened to be on our last trip (this past June). We stayed at AKL (1 night) and the YC (9 nights). Both of these hotels were amazing and the CM's could not have been nicer. :cloud9: The magic was in full force at these two places!!!

The only problems we have ever had with "diminished magic" have come from other guests. If people would just realize that EVERYONE spends a lot of money to come to WDW and that we all are just there to have a good time, a lot of the magic would return.

Heat, humidity,rain,and broken down rides combined do not have the power to ruin your day as much as one fellow guest with an attitude problem. It seems like each time we go we witness at least one more "I can't believe they did that" moment.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is up to us, the guests, to make WDW a truly magical place. Smile, be courteous, and remember the golden rule. You'll be surprised what a difference it makes!!! :flower:

:earsboy: :earsgirl: :earsboy: :earsboy: :dog2: :dog2: :dog2:

[umbluegray]

We went in May. We took my parents one week and my sister and her 2DD the next. We've been a few times but it was their first time.

We planned for a few months prior to the trip. I kept building up WDW. I told them they would be blown away. I told them once you step into the MK you're taken out of reality and you slip into fantasy. I even told them to check out the bathrooms -- that they'd be spotless.

Needless to say, they were NOT disappointed. If anything, their experience of WDW was far greater than they had imagined.

As far as the sheer number of employees, 50,000 employees isn't hard to imagine. FedEx here in Memphis has about 40,000 employees ranging from package handlers, to pilots, to aircraft mechanics, to computer programmers, to accountants, to attorneys, etc.

Living in a "right to work" state, I don't think unions are something to be desired. If I want to keep my job, I do the best I can. I try to deliver more than my employer asks. Anyway, I don't want to offend anyone about unions.

As I read that article to my DW, we talked about how incredibly everything was on our recent trip.

Note that in the article, the author starts off relating problems he experienced, but toward the end he talked about how wonderful other aspects were.

He also mentioned he was refunded the entire amount of his resort stay. How can I sign up for that?

[AlanH]

You might find the thread "The DIS Boards in NY Times article" of interest. This thread is also in Disney Rumors and News. I made a couple of posts there about CMs and management at WDW.

[SandrA9810]

Well I've read several things, and one thing that's probably taking away from the Magic, is disney trying to be cheap.
1, there's like 200,000 jobs at disney. A lot more comes from the CP program, and recent high school/college grads. Without offering that many full time positions, older people are less likely to wanna work there without insurance, unless they're in retirement years and enjoying themselves.
2. There's less attendants working the rides, and that puts more stress on the couple people that are there operating the rides. Especially when you have a handicap person come through. Everything is slowed down to allow the guest to get on board. Which is kinda annoying on rides that are continuous. I know, I have a handicap brother and it's not easy dealing with him on rides like that.
3. 20 year olds, have no sense of what proper attitudes should be in front of guest. They haven't gotten the whole idea of, "I don't care what kind of mood you're in, or what kind of mood a guest put you. You stick a smile on your face and be friendly."
I've worked in retail for 2 years now, and still haven't gotten a hang of it. Although some customers can turn your day around.
4. Disney is jacking up prices left and right every year by at least 10$. Walt originally wanted disney to be a fun and friendly place and affordable to all guests. It sure as heck not any more. Look at all the old passes and original addmission costs. They were miniscule compared to what they are now. Now you gotta save a few thousand and your entire trip is planned around going to disney.

Now in my past few trips, I haven't had any problems other than other guest pissing me off. And a few CM's who think they're cute and want to flirt with you. Ewwww.... I've had great service at the hotels, they even go out of thier way for special requests... like getting me a mickey bar of soap. And pretty much every person that i've ever talked to on the phone has been exceptionally nice and informative.

[bicker]

Walt originally wanted disney to be ... This is a myth.

[DeirdreTours]

Living in a "right to work" state, I don't think unions are something to be desired.

Oh. My. I just couldn't let this go without pointing out some of the benefits you can thank organized labor for: Overtime pay, health insurance, OSHA (to make the job reasonably safe), the 40 hour week, sick leave, etc.
None of these things happened spontaneously. Hundreds of thousands working class americans organized, sacrificed and in some cases actually died to make America a place where a person could earn a living wage.

Most Americans have no idea what it was like to work in America before the labor movement and how much people sacrificed to win basic rights for workers....(people were harrassed, beaten and sometimes murdered for daring to organize).

[bicker]

Very true. The union movement was responsible for revolutionizing the nature of work. I think umbluegray's point is that now that job is done, and unions are no longer helping, but rather hurting the nature of work, overall.

[cindyfan]

Very true. The union movement was responsible for revolutionizing the nature of work. I think umbluegray's point is that now that job is done, and unions are no longer helping, but rather hurting the nature of work, overall.
I agree...... their (the union's) work is done. There are no more sweat shops employing 10 year olds and safety is of the utmost importance in any work environment.
But it has gone a step too far..... now the "culture" of the workplace has turned into..... what I call "I showed up for work, so what are you going to do for me?" syndrome.
People have that attitude that every employer "owes" them a lot more than a pay check.
The "quality" of help has really slipped in the last 20 years.... you can't deny that.... and the staff at WDW is no exception to that.... however... the entire public seems to expect it.
It is really plain and simple.... "good help is hard to find!" And when you employ 50,000 people now, as opposed to what it was 15 or 10 years ago.... that is what WDW is faced with.
MGM has only been open for 16 years and then came AK, now open for only 7 years. And think of all the new resorts that they have opened in just the last 15 years.

When all that was open was MK, then Epcot..... yes, WDW could pick only the "cream of the crop" so to speak. Now they don't have a choice.
Would you rather wait in line for 45 minutes so that you can speak to the best guest service person they have.... or..... get checked in within 10 minutes and maybe take the chance of dealing with someone that isn't quite as "bubbly" and "Disney-fied" ?

The Magic is still there! People just have to stop expecting Disney to be entirely responsible for creating it. Magic comes from the heart! The heart of every person that steps into the "World" It is a total experience. Not just how the staff acts or if every bathroom is clean enough to eat off the floor.
If you are open to the good things..... then the Magic will naturally be there.

[eclectics]

Very true. The union movement was responsible for revolutionizing the nature of work. I think umbluegray's point is that now that job is done, and unions are no longer helping, but rather hurting the nature of work, overall.


Interesting point. Unions certainly don't have the power they once had. More and more you hear of big companies giving ultimatums to their union workers regarding wages and benefits. They threaten chapter 11 and the unions don't seem to have a choice. Take the Airline industry for instance. Their pensions have been disolved, they are making concession after concession and they still fear for their jobs, and these are powerful unions. The average worker sees this and wonders "what are the benefits of belonging to a union"? I know quite a few non union companies that offer competitive wages and excellent working conditions and let's face it, I don't think (especially these days) being in a union offers you better job security. I'm not bashing unions, believe me. The makeup of industry in this country would be quite different if they were not formed. We certainly needed them. But with big company management seemingly quite able to squeeze power away from the unions now, what are the benefits of belonging? I think enough labor laws (thanks to the unions, by the way) are now in effect that big business can't blatantly abuse their workers anymore.

[bicker]

Interesting point. Unions certainly don't have the power they once had. More and more you hear of big companies giving ultimatums to their union workers regarding wages and benefits.The reason why unions no longer have power is specifically because most workers feel they can protect themselves more effectively and more efficiently than the superstructures that the unions have become.

They threaten chapter 11 and the unions don't seem to have a choice.Unions always have a choice. Regardless, there hasn't been a company that has "threatened" Chapter 11 in order to secure agreement from a union to adopt unsafe or abusive working conditions. Rather, the companies "threatening" Chapter 11 are asking for financial considerations, typically to stave off bankruptcy. Let's keep to the issue: Unions fought against child labor, and unsafe working conditions. Those objectives are achived, and we're in no danger of back-sliding. Government has taken the place of the union movement in regard to these moral issues. All unions have left to concern themselves with is money (and benefits that cost money) and as such have lost the moral club they used to wield, that granted them the power they used have have.

[umbluegray]

Thanks, bicker. That was my point.

Unions definitely had their place and time, and the American worker benefited greatly.

Today is a different world. A job is not a right, it's a privilege. And it's up to me to be the most valuable employee I can be.

It seems that, in some instances, unions can hamper productivity.

[DeirdreTours]

Those are interesting points and I don't entirely disagree.

But....if you think that we are not in danger of backsliding, you aren't really tuned in to what it is like to be an hourly employee at a lot of companies these days. Many non-unionized workers are still routinely abused. Walmart has been repeatedly cited for, among other things: locking workers into store overnight to do stocking work (In the event of an emergency, these workers were trapped inside the building unable to escape), forcing workers to work additional unpaid hours "off the clock" and firing workers for attempting to organize. Tyson chicken has been repeatedly cited for many similar things. Hundreds of smaller companies just get away with it. The federal goverment (which should be enforcing the current laws) is currently very unintrested in the working poor.

The other thing I would like to point out is that the biggest reason that unions have lost the ability to negociate with management is that it is now so easy to just shift the work to some third world country where workers can be paid next to nothing and have no protections at all. This isn't something that can be easily solved and it will continue to drive down real wages for the forseeable future.

Thanks for tolerating this really off-topic ramble.... I promise I will now drop it and return to all Disney!

[baby_becky716]

20 year olds, have no sense of what proper attitudes should be in front of guest. They haven't gotten the whole idea of, "I don't care what kind of mood you're in, or what kind of mood a guest put you. You stick a smile on your face and be friendly."


I am 19 years old and I know plenty of young adults 19 - 29 that know and show "proper attitudes". This comment is a bit stereotypical and insulting. You cannot take a handful of people and judge the whole group based on this.

[King Triton]

Thanks to Michael Ei$ner, a lot of the magic is missing. Epcot has lost it's charm when they took out Horizons, World of Motion and the first Imagination ride. The top suits have lost touch with what makes Disney so magical. Look at the disaster of California Adventure. With Ei$ner leaving, there is hope for the future. It will take many years to undo the damage.

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[bicker]

That's one perspective. Another is that Eisner is principally responsible for both the company still being in business, and it being considered one of the major players in the industry. There are a number of folks who greatly prefer Test Track to World of Motion, and consider Soarin' to be a great addition to Epcot. There are even a number of folks who don't have major concerns about older rides being retired, acknowledging the normal passage of time. And as someone mentioned in this thread, earlier, the magic is dependent on the guests as much as anything the company does.

Bob Iger will be lucky to have such positive impact on Disney as Eisner had. I have every confidence that Iger will work to achieve that.

Nice discussion, though. :wave2:

[King Triton]

The old Epcot rides like Horizons, World of Motion and the original Imagination ride with Dream Finder had the Disney "magic." The top Disney suits who made the horrible mistake to take out these attractions also took out the charm from Epcot. Look...when you rode these old classics, the images and songs stayed in your mind. It opened up your imagination and wonderment. Ei$ner didn't get it...he was trying to appeal to teenagers by adding thrill rides. Big mistake. Even Walt had a formula to make all of his rides enjoyable for the entire family. Will you take your small child on Test Track or Mission Space?? enough said. Ei$ner just about killed Epcot. The Suits don't get it. True Disney fans "get" the magic. Disney is not about going fast around a track..it's about taking a journey into your imagination. HELLO.....can I get an "amen" out there? lol

:dancer: :charac2:

[tjkraz]

Look...when you rode these old classics, the images and songs stayed in your mind. It opened up your imagination and wonderment.

And you're saying that rides like Mission: Space and Soarin have ZERO impact on your "imagination and wonderment?" How sad.

Ei$ner didn't get it...he was trying to appeal to teenagers by adding thrill rides.

Gee, been a long time since I've been accused of being a teenager.

Big mistake. Even Walt had a formula to make all of his rides enjoyable for the entire family. Will you take your small child on Test Track or Mission Space??

So you're telling me that Walt Disney, the man who dreamed of futuristic cities and created his own Tomorrowland, would have ignored 40+ years of technological advances if alive today?!?! He would have said "yes, we could make the single most realistic space flight simulator in the world, but we won't do it because it's too intense for a 6-month old."

Sorry, not the Walt I knew.

I'll concede that Walt may have taken a different approach to certain projects, perhaps insisting on greater integration between ride & story. But to say that Walt wouldn't have altered his own formula over four decades to accommodate a changing society and changing technology is ludicrous.

Ei$ner just about killed Epcot. The Suits don't get it. True Disney fans "get" the magic.

My, God, what an inappropriately agrrogant statement that is. As if guests at Epcot should swear allegiance to Horizons before they dare pass through the gates.

Reality check: People LIKE Test Track. People LIKE Mission: Space. People LIKE Soarin.

That fact alone doesn't make them any less worthy of enjoying the Disney "magic" than you are. Don't turn your nostalgia for a 20-year old (maximum speed: 4 mph) version of Epcot into someone else's character flaw.

Disney is not about going fast around a track..it's about taking a journey into your imagination.

Why, exactly, are the two mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to use one's imagination during a ride that takes you speeding around a track at 65 MPH, flying over the California coast or accellerating toward Mars? :confused3

[DancingBear]

Will you take your small child on Test Track or Mission Space?? enough said.My then-3yo son loved Test Track.

[k5thbeatle]

[I]...Also, my expectations are tied, in large part, to price. At $300 a night plus another $200 a day in food, plus ticket cost (for my family of 3 "adults", one "child" and one "infant"), my vacations expectactions are very high. Of course problems happen, but at these prices I expect those problems to resolved pretty quickly and with an apology for the inconvienience. In my opinion, it is in problem solving that Disney now frequently falls short. The polite guest who states calmly that they expect the room they booked, or that dried white gunk on the bathroom wall is not acceptable are pretty much ignored.

"In my opinion, it is in problem solving that Disney now frequently falls short"

This line imho, summarizes their greatest problem and change that I have seen since I statred going to WDW in '71