The DIS Boards in NY Times article

[GrimGhost]

Some Ask if the Disney Magic Is Slipping
By CHARLES PASSY
The New York Times

.....The issue seems to resonate with Disney guests. On such Web sites as WDWInfo.com and MiceAge.com, they debate matters ranging from the company's attention to ride safety (in the wake of recent scares connected to such attractions as Mission: Space at the Epcot park and the Twilight Zone Tower of Terror at Disney-MGM Studios, including the death of a 4-year-old boy after riding Mission: Space) to the wait times for Disney buses. There appears to be a growing view that the Mouse no longer delivers at the same magical level.....

[mitros]

I guess it's about time that 73,000+ board members get some press!

[stczt]

thats great!!!

[GrimGhost]

I guess it's about time that 73,000+ board members get some press!

Mitros, my thoughts exactly, which was my motivation behind posting!

[Moobooks]

I had a terrible experience checking in at the Beach Club in May, where I was lied to by the CM at the front desk and put in a smoking room. The manager I spoke with was full of corporate double talk, and little else. Left me furious. Yeah, I'd say the magic in Walt Disney World is slipping, and I plan on spending more time at Disneyland in California because of it.

Edited to add e-mail notification.

[mickey2000]

I had a terrible experience checking in at the Beach Club in May, where I was lied to by the CM at the front desk and put in a smoking room. The manager I spoke with was full of corporate double talk, and little else. Left me furious. Yeah, I'd say the magic in Walt Disney World is slipping, and I plan on spending more time at Disneyland in California because of it.

Edited to add e-mail notification.
Sorry but its all about the http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/diz/word011.gifMy last visit to the Beach Club my room had burn marks on the rugs in a non smoking room and a sheet of plywood under the mattress!

[mitros]

OK, now, that really bites! A sheet of plywood??? :earseek:

[bicker]

My last visit to the Beach Club my room had burn marks on the rugs in a non smoking room and a sheet of plywood under the mattress!My room had burn marks on the carpeting too... but that was Dixie Landings (now Port Orleans Riverside), and it was 1994.

I believe you can request plywood under the mattress. Many folks need that kind of additional support.

[patsal]

Must be the same weasel that checked me in at the Beach Club last year! The manager then didn't know double talk, just really blunt and rude with no people skills.

[mickey2000]

My room had burn marks on the carpeting too... but that was Dixie Landings (now Port Orleans Riverside), and it was 1994.

I believe you can request plywood under the mattress. Many folks need that kind of additional support.
They told me that the mattress was old and needed to be replaced. They claimed that they all would be replaced in the fall which didn't help us sleep!! :earseek:

[bicker]

Sounds reasonable. Given that some of these hotels have been operating for over 30 years, I'd expect that some of them have gone through numerous cycles where their matresses start out new, then they get older, then they're old and need to be replaced. :confused3

[mickey2000]

Sounds reasonable. Given that some of these hotels have been operating for over 30 years, I'd expect that some of them have gone through numerous cycles where their matresses start out new, then they get older, then they're old and need to be replaced. :confused3
What I'm trying to say. They should be replaced before they need to use a sheet of plywood. I paid over $300 a night for this room. This is not a flame, however it probably is a waste of time for me to post the facts, as in some responses, others claim Disney can do NO wrong, some might even think I was unlucky and was the only one with the board in the whole resort !!:rotfl2
And yes I still go back to Disney and enjoy it there, just this one bad experience! In fact during the past 12 years we have been to the parks a total of 211 days! :earsboy:

[mitros]

You won't get an argument from me!

[Euphscott]

...and Beach Club has not been open for 30 years...

[Mickeyistheman]

I am one of those Disney fans where I feel Disney can't do wrong. If they did and people really were THAT upset with an incident, we wouldn't have all of these boards with how are the crowds. It seems pretty crowded to me so that can't be doing everything wrong. I work in the travel industry and with regards to the report. Not everything is guaranteed especially when it comes to connecting rooms and non smoking. If people travel enough then they should know that. Otherwise shame on their travel agent who booked them!

But if you get upset because you didn't get a towel animal..... come on I think there are much bigger things to complain about than not getting a towel animal.

Disney is not what it used to be as far as service goes but sometimes that CM might be having a bad day it happens to all of us. Let's just hope things will get back on track come Sept.

:maleficen

19 days till CSR!!!!!!! :wave:

[bicker]

You're missing the point.No; I'm just not convinced of the point. I've found Disney's beds to be quite comfortable, on every visit I've ever made there.

It seems pretty crowded to me so that can't be doing everything wrong.This is a really good point. While any individual could have anecdotal experiences, which they personally perceive as negative, different individuals could have their own anecdotal experiences, even identical experiences, which they personally perceive as positive. Given the objective data, hotel load levels and theme park attendance, it seems that the latter far outweigh the former. This is despite more than two decades of folks pointing to their personal anecdotal experiences as the basis for assertions that Disney is declining. After the first ten years, I started become a little skeptical. ;) Disney surely can do wrong, but it seems to me that what they do wrong typically has very little correlation to individual guests' anecdotal experiences.

[mitros]

No towel animal? I think you are missing the point. We Disney "regulars" are seeing a drop in the Disney way of caring and maintaining. We know that Disney can, and HAS done better in the past. It's not the point of not having a towel animal or one less bar of soap in the room, it's the rooms not being cleaned properly, it's burned out bulbs, chipped paint, it's ride maintenence that is suffering, it's the fact that there are less CMs operating rides, {safety} it's food stands not being open, and long lines at ones that are open, {there's that less CMs thing}, it's faded paint, it's shorter hours on, and less rides being open, it's trash not being picked up {CMs where are you?} I can literally go on and on.
We know that Disney has the ability to fix these problems, but why aren't they? And the one thing that we have noticed in our several hundred trips to WDW, is that the CMs, as overworked as they are, still grasp Walt's idea of keeping the guest happy. They do their best under the circumstances.
And to take M. Eisner out of the equation when looking for a reason for this loss of "magic' would be quite nearsighted. It all rolls down hill. The boss says cut, and everything down the line gets cut.
I don't know, it seems so simple to a lot of us. IOHO, as meek as we are.

[bicker]

Let's take "food stands not being open," as an example. It is reasonable to schedule the hours for a food stand commensurate with patrons' willingness to pay a sufficient enough premium to support the food stand being open. Disney's strength has always been listening to the customer. Listening to the customer means not only listening to them when they say, "I care about this!" -- it also means listening to the customer when they say, "I don't care much about that." That distinction has always been Disney's strength. What you may consider a lynchpin of an assertion of a "decline" I consider to be a hallmark of an assertion of acute sensitivity to what drives overall customer satisfaction. To operate any other way would be disrespectful to the legacy of the company, as it would undercut the company's ability to compete in the years to come, as we saw happen in the 1970s.

[Buzz2001]

But another part of the equation, say observers like Deb Wills, founder of AllEarsNet.com, another unofficial Disney site, is that Disney guests have come to anticipate "magic moments" at, well, every moment. "People hear so many wonderful things they think it's going to be picture perfect," she said. Take the famed "towel animals" - towels that have been shaped to resemble wildlife - that Disney maids have been known to leave in a guest's room. What started as a surprise offering has now become a de rigueur part of the Disney experience.I tend to agree more with this part of the article.

[WDWdad2]

I tend to agree more with this part of the article.


I remember when Mousekeeping's arrangement of the stuffed animals in the room or the window was such a treat. :banana:

On our recent (7/1 - 7/6) stay at POP, we had no towel animals and minimal creativity the other days, including one day of nothing at all. :guilty:

Our DD11 fondly remembers all the times on past trips she came back to the room to a funny display, so she wanted to show DD2-1/2 this time. Unfortunately, the best display occurred when I got to the room a few steps ahead of the family and turned on the TV, placing the remote with the stuffed animals that were just sitting on a towel on the bed. :sad2:

Maybe it was because the DDs brought the hippo and lion from Madagascar along with Mickey and Pluto! :rolleyes1

This just illustrates how Disney can be a victim of its own high standards and the expectations it creates. When that expectation isn't met, we post on an internet board and newspaper articles are written about the loss of the "magic." ;)

P.S. Yes, we tip Mousekeeping! pirate:

[Laugh O. Grams]

Sorry but its all about the http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/diz/word011.gifMy last visit to the Beach Club my room had burn marks on the rugs in a non smoking room and a sheet of plywood under the mattress!
Lets just hope the plywood wasn't pressure treated!! Now that might be something to really complain about!

[bicker]

I remember when Mousekeeping's arrangement of the stuffed animals in the room or the window was such a treat.
On our recent (7/1 - 7/6) stay at POP, we had no towel animals and minimal creativity the other days, including one day of nothing at all. By contrast, during our first five stays, we had something special like towel animals one day during two of the five stays. So while that would indicate a distinct improvement over time, many people still feel that they perceive a decline.

This just illustrates how Disney can be a victim of its own high standards and the expectations it creates.It seems to me that it illustrates the substantial impact of the Internet, because Disney was just fine for many, many years, providing towel animal two out of five visits. It was only when guests started learning about the special things, and indeed that was facilitated by online communities and newsgroups, that guests started coming to expect them, instead of being pleasantly surprised by them.

[Goofy4WDW1964]

It is all about the money.

We started going to WDW in 1996. The best vacation we have ever taken. We have been almost every year since then. Around the year 2000 is when we started seeing a decline in Disney service. Now, this is before 9/11, so we can't really blame it all on that. The last three years that we have went, the parks and resorts have been a lot more crowed than they were in the late 90's. So, we can rule out drop in attendance as the cause.

I am not talking about no towel animals in my room. I am an adult. I know towel animals are extras from housekeeping. I am talking about shorter park hours, restaurants closed, litter in the parks, broken pieces on rides. I have even been able to tell a difference in cast member attitudes, and I don't mean all CMs.

There were cuts made during the down time after 9/11 due to low crowds. Well, the crowds have been back for several years and there were a lot of cost cutting measures that have not been reversed.

I understand that Disney is a corperation and they have to make money. But, they were a corperation in the late 90's too, and they made money. I think the problem is that they saw they could make more money keeping the cuts in place and people still come.

I work in a customer service field and I used to use Disney as an example when conducting training classes. I no longer do.

[bicker]

It is all about the money. Business is always about the money. :)

Keep in mind that many things have changed over the last few years. 10 years ago we had never even heard of "road rage". Now it is common. So the extent to which people are rude, even abusive, to others has increased. That's going to be reflected in quality of customer service, since customer-facing personnel now face a level of stress that they never encountered until recently.

I mentioned the Internet earlier. Besides skewing expectations all out of kilter, the Internet also has reduced the barriers to obtaining what economists call "perfect information". A customer can now, in just a few minutes, comparison shop among dozens of suppliers. The more efficient supplier, who can provide a product much closer to what the customer wants, with as little waste as possible, will succeed to a greater degree than the less efficient supplier, who seeks to satisfy customers by just arbitrarily adding costly features and services to their product offerings. Targeting what is offered to what customers actually value is critical. Those companies that do it will will survive. Those that don't will die. Disney actually had a very hard time getting a handle on all the stuff they were doing that was wasteful expense, but they have succeeded.

[Goofy4WDW1964]

Keep in mind that many things have changed over the last few years.

That is precisely the problem. They haven't changed for the better. Road rage has been around for as long as cars. It's just now, we have a label for it and it's presence in the media.

A customer can now, in just a few minutes, comparison shop among dozens of suppliers. The more efficient supplier, who can provide a product much closer to what the customer wants, with as little waste as possible, will succeed to a greater degree than the less efficient supplier, who seeks to satisfy customers by just arbitrarily adding costly features and services to their product offerings.

Maybe that is part of the problem. There isn't something comparible yet to WDW, yet. But don't think that there won't be. There didn't used to be anything comparible to Disney animation. Now we have Pixar. Customer service above and beyond used to be their trademark. It isn't anymore. Doesn't sound like they are keeping up to me. I attend a lot of seminars about service. Disney isn't mentioned as an example anymore. They've traded their future reputation for a quick buck today.

I myself hope they figure it out soon and get it corrected.

[bicker]

That is precisely the problem. They haven't changed for the better.I meant that everything has changed; society has changed; the nature and manner of providing service has changed.

Road rage has been around for as long as cars. It's just now, we have a label for it and it's presence in the media.No. Back when I first started driving, there was nothing like the kind of behavior we see on the roads today. The world has moved on, and for many things you're right, not in a good direction: The behavior of people, in general, has degraded sharply. Every aspect of life is affected by that.

There isn't something comparible yet to WDW, yet.Having no competitor, in itself, I would consider a societal ill. There should never be only one "best" of anything, ever, IMHO. Being the best is a tenuous designation at best, because anything worth being the best at is worth others working to be a little better at. The reality is that Disney finally does have real competition in the theme park realm -- Universal, and to a much lesser extent, Busch Gardens. While Disney is still the best, by far, Universal, at least, is a strong contender. Good thing, too, because real-life measurement of how good Disney is has to be cast in terms of its comparison to Universal and the rest. Without competition to compare a supplier to, all there is is the trivial exercise of comparing a supplier to hopes or memories, neither of which are reasonable foundations for comparison.

There didn't used to be anything comparible to Disney animation. Now we have Pixar.Yeah, animation is a three dog race now, and it isn't clear to me that Disney is the best there, at this moment. However, it is important to note that this isn't because of the budgetary-related cuts at Disney animation, but rather simply because Pixar is owned by specific people who have specific talent. Folks with that kind of special creativity are going to be much better off working for themselves than for a corporation, something which Walt Disney didn't have to contend with because of the studio system, and how he could keep great talent under his thumb or keep them from getting work.

Customer service above and beyond used to be their trademark.And it still is. I think they simply define it based on what customers-in-general tell them it is, rather than based on what any one specific customer tells them it is.

[mitros]

Thanks Goofy, you saved me from doing a lot of typing {boy, do I hate typing! :crazy2:} Your two posts express my thoughts almost to a "T".

[mickey2000]

Thanks Goofy, you saved me from doing a lot of typing {boy, do I hate typing! :crazy2:} Your two posts express my thoughts almost to a "T".
Let me second that!!
I also remember 20 years ago when other corporations went to disney in order to attend conferences on "How to Run a Company". They covered many topics including customer service. Note, they no longer are the leader in this field as they have made many POOR decisions IMO. Disney Stores several years ago looked to others for help ( Gap store :rotfl2: ). They tried everthing however nothing worked. So lease the store to someone for 10 years and see what they can do! Just look at thier merchandise , its now a toy store with childrens clothing. Remember when they had collectibles and other great items! Where is Disney's 3rd ship, it takes 3 years to build one? Its not because of the euro dollar its MONEY (stock holders)! Disney probably thinks, why invest if we can fill the two ships at top dollar! All the other cruise lines are building new modern super sized ships! Keep up with the times Disney, and build that new ship, people will also fill that if you come up with new destinations! Ever notice when Disney finds a good thing like pin collecting, or bean bags they over do it! They will milk it for every cent till it dies, and not know when to stop! Its only because I have been around Disney since 1971 that I feel this way. It has declined IMO for guests who have been going for a long time and have seen the changes over the years. Its not the same! The world is different. IMO Disney has lost the edge. Younger families have nothing long term to compare with so most are very happy. Even so, :earsboy: let me say that I will still love Disney and will return, as I'm a Disney nut!
PS hope I left a lot of good points to quote! :cool1: :rotfl2: :cool1: :rotfl2: :cool1: :rotfl2: :badpc:

[bicker]

I also remember 20 years ago when other corporations went to disney in order to attend conferences on "How to Run a Company".20 years ago I taught quality management, spreading the mantra that "Quality is Free", and projecting the message that satisfying customers "always" pays off.

I was wrong.

That entire movement has been discredited. The turning point was when, in one year, Wallace Industries won the National Quality Award, crowned as the paragon of quality and customer satisfaction, and in the next year, went out of business.

There is a cost for everything. Every action, every aspect of service, every allocation of resources, must be justified by specific and substantial contribution to long-term shareholder value, or the pursuit of quality is just an empty, useless, and worthless exercise. What we've learned since the Wallace Industries debacle is that quality for quality's sake is not a noble pursuit; quality in the interest of the objectives of the enterprise is.

[Laurajean1014]

This is a terrible write up. It makes us seem like we just whine about WDW all day long. There are wonderful conversations (WDW and non-related) that go on here. It sounds like the media was trying to "DIS" Disney and used this and other website as their scapegoats.................... SHame, Shame, Shame.

[raidermatt]

It is reasonable to schedule the hours for a food stand commensurate with patrons' willingness to pay a sufficient enough premium to support the food stand being open.

Once upon a time, Disney considered more than this. They believed that a closed food stand was bad Show, and Show was the primary focus. Certainly this concept has not been completely abandoned, but it does receive less emphasis. One can argue that Walt was mistaken to place such emphasis on Show, and that Disney is right to look at each individual stand as a profit center. I won't, but certainly one can. However, the inevitable result is that some will complain, which brings me to the next point... The Internet, and other such changes.

Yes, things have changed. Consumers are more savvy, information disseminates more quickly and freely.

These are the realities of doing business. One can survive, and even remain profitable by blaming these realities for their problems. Or, one can thrive and grow at a greater rate by finding ways to meet the demands of today's consumer.

May not be fair, may not be reasonable, but its reality.

Lastly, the idea that WDW has no competition is simply not true. Nor is their primary competition Universal. WDW is primarily a vacation resort destination. There are others. Hawaii, for example, is experiencing record levels of visitors, as is Central Florida in general. WDW, however, is not.

Yes, Universal is a competitor, as is Busch and SeaWorld to lesser extents, but its not only about theme parks.

[bicker]

Once upon a time, Disney considered more than this.They shouldn't have been, IMHO. A customer-focused company should be focused on what customers value, not on some idealized image of perfection.

[raidermatt]

The belief was that the Show IS what the customers valued. They did pretty well with that business plan.

But don't take that to mean that a food stand that nobody patronized would stay open forever. Of course the issue had to be addressed. But there are ways to deal with the problem that don't damage the Show.

In black and white business school terms, the Show IS the product. Its what people paid money for at the gate. Its why the place was designed like movie sets. It WAS supposed to be an idealized image of perfection, BECAUSE the company believed that's what people wanted.

[manning]

Let's take "food stands not being open," as an example. It is reasonable to schedule the hours for a food stand commensurate with patrons' willingness to pay a sufficient enough premium to support the food stand being open. Disney's strength has always been listening to the customer. Listening to the customer means not only listening to them when they say, "I care about this!" -- it also means listening to the customer when they say, "I don't care much about that." That distinction has always been Disney's strength. What you may consider a lynchpin of an assertion of a "decline" I consider to be a hallmark of an assertion of acute sensitivity to what drives overall customer satisfaction. To operate any other way would be disrespectful to the legacy of the company, as it would undercut the company's ability to compete in the years to come, as we saw happen in the 1970s.

Do to cut backs, Disney has decided to not replace the batteries in the hearing aids. They feel this will not have an adverse effect on listening. :rolleyes1

[manning]

Quality---- hmmm, isn't that where the Japanese beat the pants off us.

[Acklander]

Keep in mind that Disney changes because customers needs change. Since everyone is using the food stand as an example - I have some old guide books from the 80's that mention that that guests weren't allowed to bring food & drinks into the parks. Currently guests are now allowed to bring food & drink into the parks. Disney didn't make this change because the decided they didn't want to cook for the masses anymore. This was in response to customer actions and one of the side effects is that now you will have some food stands that close down earlier.
The writer of the article mentioned that eventually he was refunded for his entire stay. Yes, he had a bad trip but do you, the other guests, feel that it justified a complete refund? What he was refunded would have paid the salaray for one housekeeper for a month.
Disney is a business - it is required to make a profit to survive. This isn't optional. The services Disney is able to provide are directly related to what the customers are willing to spend. Look at all the posts on the Dis boards where people are asking where can they get discount tickets, why aren't more codes being released, why aren't the discounts as high as they were in previous years, and so on. Intermingled with the thousands of posts on how to save money are a few posts mentioning how trash isn't being cleaned up as quickly as it has in Walt's day. The customer is speaking loud and clear, and what they want is the most for the least amount of money.

[raidermatt]

Disney has always been a business. But at one time they were a business that did not complain about what the customer expectations were. They simply evaluated what the expectations were, accepted them as reality, and then strove to exceed them.

Disney is the one who chose to get into the world of discounts and coupons. Right or wrong, once you do that on any kind of scale, people are going to expect it. That's true of any industry.

Disney is also the one who set the expectation that the parks would be maintained in a near pristine manner. Again, right or wrong, once they set the bar, its done.

Even with the discounts out there, its been proven that people will pay a lot of money for the "Disney" experience. But when that experience starts to suffer, people are going to complain. Again, this is a reality of business.

Yes, Disney set the bar high, and its not easy to meet and exceed those expectations. But at the same time, they have made enormous sums of money BECAUSE they set the bar so high. There is no need to feel sorry for them. Its simply a matter of choice. If they want to reap the rewards, they will have to deal with the realities with which they are faced.

[bicker]

The belief was that the Show IS what the customers valued. ... It WAS supposed to be an idealized image of perfection, BECAUSE the company believed that's what people wanted.Key word there is "was." That either never was the case, or is simply no longer the case. While many (but perhaps not even "most") customers "want" The Show, customers don't "value" The Show in the way you suggest the company once thought.

Quality---- hmmm, isn't that where the Japanese beat the pants off us.Taught, incidentally, by an American: W. Edwards Deming. However, the Japanese, at least, never got lost in the mythology of believing anything that they couldn't see the evidence of. They didn't take anything on faith, but rather achieved their quality ascendancy by relying on data-driven management. There is no question that it was that success that changed the nature of business in America, as a result, and thereby made the environment inhospitable for the kind of company that the Disney brothers once ran.

do you, the other guests, feel that it justified a complete refund?I wouldn't even focus on that. He was a newspaper reporter, and therefore had the capacity to foment a PR nightmare, and so perhaps evoked an atypical, patently unfair response from the company.

The customer is speaking loud and clear, and what they want is the most for the least amount of money.Well said, Judy. This message is being projected in many places. On Cruise Critic and on rec.travel.cruises, folks bemoan the loss of the historic grandeur of cruising, as if it was something that cruise lines did to them, as opposed to the reality, it being something that cruise passengers in general did to the cruise lines. The airline industry is another great example. It used to be a very special, and enjoyable, experience flying to some other city. Now it is "cheap" and not such an enjoyable experience anymore. Passengers are choosing on price, to the exclusion of most other considerations, including comfort, including customer accommodation. Folks are choosing non-refundable deposits in the airline industry too, with $50, $75, $100, 50% and even 100% penalties for changes, in order to get the lowest fare, even at the risk that they'll lose their entire investment if they need to make a change.

Folks have been predicting the demise of Disney, due to changes in its service model, for decades. I participated in thread online, going back 18-19 years, where such predictions were made. There is no question that the folks making such predictions weren't happy about something. However, that clearly hasn't been reflective of what the general public cares about. People will continue to visit Disney theme parks, in ever-increasing record numbers, as long as Disney is the best, and they still are.

[mickey2000]

. :rotfl: ............

[raidermatt]

Key word there is "was." That either never was the case, or is simply no longer the case. While many (but perhaps not even "most") customers "want" The Show, customers don't "value" The Show in the way you suggest the company once thought.

Those professionals doing their jobs at Disney will tell you the Show is exteremely important. The issue is that while they still do a better job at it than most, they just don't do as good a job as they used to.

This isn't a case of the company thinking that's what customers valued. Disney was not wrong here. If they were, they wouldn't have experienced unprecedented and unduplicated success from day 1.

Strategically, the plan was brilliant, and an empire began. Of course they were not perfect, and tactical errors were made, but the overriding philosophy is what created the business we know as Disney.

If they ran it like everybody else, they would have achieved results like everybody else.

People will continue to visit Disney theme parks, in ever-increasing record numbers, as long as Disney is the best, and they still are.
Except others are setting records as we speak, while WDW is not.

But don't confuse a call for a strategy more in line with original Disney with a prediction that Disney is doomed. Sure, some equate the two. I don't. I simply say that if you run things like everybody else, in the long run, you'll achieve results like everybody else.

If that's satisfactory to you, then great. Again, I'll only remind you that we wouldn't be here discussing this company if that's how they had done things all along.

[mickey2000]

Those professionals doing their jobs at Disney will tell you the Show is exteremely important. The issue is that while they still do a better job at it than most, they just don't do as good a job as they used to.

What a great statement ! I totally agree..........http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/diz/36_1_11.gif.
The facts are clear!
Guess I'll get a quote now on the facts ........ :rotfl2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/diz/1111111111.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/diz/36_1_32v.gif

[lllovell]

I have been discussing this over on the DVC Community Board and its interesting to me how things take different turns in different conversations. Here is the link to the DVC conversation http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=876928

I dont disagree with the statement about show and how it IS still Disney's focus and it is what sets them apart, but I also agree with Bicker that its not even close to being all Disney at fault here.

How many times have you seen people getting up at a counter service restaurant leaving ALL their trash on a table? How many times have you been in the restrooms and watched people toss papertowels at the trash and shrug if they miss and walk on? How many times have I seen people dropping trash as they walked around the parks?

I think the general public (sadly a majority IMHO) think THEY are paying for someone else to clean up so they can be slobs. All the extra money that has gone into "cleaning up" the general mess comes from elsewhere in the maintenance budget. It might be in housekeeping. It might be in physical maintenance. I don't really know, but I do know it REALLY upsets me.

There is also the "I PAID A LOT FOR THIS VACATION - YOU BETTER KISS MY BUTT" attitude that has really gotten a boost from boards like these where people discuss the magic THEY received and then everyone else feels entitled to it! (Deb said it best in that article about the towel animals). There are WHOLE threads about how to get cards and balloons in your room for special occasions. There are even *gasp* newspaper articles that talk about taking your gripes far enough up the line and you will get a FULL refund for your trip (specifically this one). MEMEMEMEMMEME - I matter MOST dang it - and DONT YOU DARE forget it! ugh....People in general really HAVE changed. (and not one of us can say we have gone to WDW and NOT seen the parents screaming at their kids about money vs. good times - we have ALL seen it)

I find it very hard to blame Disney for providing excellent customer service, superior parks, being a good employer and yet so many people expect and demand things that are not reasonable - which effects all the things I just mentioned - customer service, the parks, the employees in so many ways.

MY OPINION ON THE ARTICLE:
One of our regular posters pointed out to Mr Passy that the mother who brought her children and needed the joining rooms for medical reasons wasn't sent off to BFE! She was moved to a further building in the resort (how would they even know this? Did the mother actually check the original rooms?) that was *gasp* full of teenagers. No way - an All-Star with school groups? EVERY BUILDING in the All Stars and Pop are full of school groups and its luck if you get close to the foodcourt/lobby area unless you pay the upcharge for a poolside room, and its still a bit of a walk. I HATE Disney's "request" policy concerning medical reasons, etc (they dont seem to have a good standing policy on how to handle REAL medical needs) but I am SURE that mother was told that her adjoining rooms were a request and not a guarantee. I have NEVER called when they didn't tell me that and if I HAD to have things like that, I would not stay on-site or would have stayed at a more expensive home away from home room. The policy becomes limiting, but its my decision to accept it or to stay elsewhere. This person apparently got $100 off (which is over the average cost of a one night stay) which is what Mr. Passy himself said was "industry standard" for handling an upset customer. What else does she deserve? A better policy - maybe...but it is the current policy in place - and I bet ALL of you know that requests are not guaranteed.

Same thing for rollaway beds (at least at DVC resorts). 3 different CMs told this person they would give him one? What? I don't know the policy at the non-DVC hotels, but I do know that you won't get a rollaway at a DVC.

Also, this writer seems shocked to find SSR still under construction (and if any of you have been there - they have opened FULL sections at a time - there are NO rooms open in the areas being constructed). If his original intent was to write an article about SSR, then why didn't he do ANY research?

Basically, there are some good point here - Disney needs to keep their eye on the ball and hopefully they will recognize that with the changes that are occuring at the top levels, but in my opinion, too many "bad" points make this article worthless.

[raidermatt]

I don't disagree with the idea that things have changed. For example, people leaving their trash around.

But again, from a businesses' point of view, these are simply realities of life. Disney is not going to change the personal habits of its guests. So the question becomes, what do you do about it?

Two choices- 1, throw up your hands and say we can't do anything about it, so the parks will just be dirtier. 2, adapt, and find ways to deal with the problem without compromising your product.

Of course, the second choice is the more difficult one, but aren't we talking about an experienced company with highly paid and trained professionals who are supposed to be able to find solutions to difficult problems?

Of course the customer is the root cause of virtually all trash being left on the ground. Even if it occured with less frequency in years' past, it was still a customer who left it there. The principle of the matter has not changed. The company still has to choose whether to give up and allow its product to suffer, or to adapt to the ever-changing environment.

[lllovell]

btw - someone gave me the link for the people staying at the All Stars that are mentioned in the article. I was mistaken about her circumstances (she DID go the appropriate way and use Special Services) and she was treated rather badly.

Sadly, I suspect what happened to this woman is that somoene else showed up in between, raised a total ruckus at the front desk and got themselves into this ladies "connecting" rooms. I don't know this for a fact, but it DOES happen (especially in the DVC side of things with the "room ready" policy).


Matt - I agree, they do have to work on things. They are trying different things currently I believe (there have been so many changes in the last year to tickets, packaging, etc) so it will take a while for them to pan out. You do have to change to the demands of your customers, but this also goes back to things like the food stands being closed example. We gripe about things and they respond - not always well - and yet we are shocked when tickets go up or services go down, etc. Its a hard balancing act.

[manning]

That entire movement has been discredited. The turning point was when, in one year, Wallace Industries won the National Quality Award, crowned as the paragon of quality and customer satisfaction, and in the next year, went out of business.

Are you referencing to Wallace Co. Inc. whose main business was serving primarily petrochemical and chemical industries? They won the award in 1990. I worked for a large oil company at the time. Around that period the bottom was dropping out of the oil sector. Oil prices dropped down to around 10 dollars a barrel and all the oil companies started to downsize and sharply curtail there spending, both in exploration and maintenance. I know I worked in purchasing. There were a lot of suppliers who folded, good and bad. I think they had a little under 300 associates working for them. We didn't survive and where involved in implementing quality. The sectors in our company where it was were beating the pants off the areas not yet on the program. We just ran out of time. We got bought out about a year before things started to turn around. A year earlier recovery and we would still be around today. If you don't have anyone to sell to, what else is there to do. Quality control, like everything else, doesn't guarantee survival. They may not have had the cash reserve to ride it out!!!

[raidermatt]

I have no problem acknowleging that it is a difficult balancing act.

It just shouldn't be an excuse for letting key aspects of the product deteriorate. If all you are doing is saying it isn't easy, hey, again I agree 100%.

[FrozenTundra]

The principle of the matter has not changed. The company still has to choose whether to give up and allow its product to suffer, or to adapt to the ever-changing environment.

They did adapt. After a parade or Wishes, the parade routes & popular viewing areas look like a war zone. So Disney adapted with Bradley Fighting Hoovers.

[lllovell]

I have no problem acknowleging that it is a difficult balancing act.

It just shouldn't be an excuse for letting key aspects of the product deteriorate. If all you are doing is saying it isn't easy, hey, again I agree 100%.


No no - not an excuse. (that is another whole area of MEMEMEMEM that I can't stand - its not MY fault). I think they ARE trying things it just takes a while.

I am actually very happy with my visits to Disney. We go often (3-4 times a year...DVC owners...stay at values and moderates in between those trips...always do the parks) and so far, I can say that the only disappointing thing to me is the behavior of the other people around me. If I have been lucky, well - I will take that.

I do think they are addressing ideas. They are trying to fill the hotels, which leads to more income which gives them more to spend on maintenance and other items. I hope they take the money they are producing and actually USE it to continue improvements/implementation at the parks.

[raidermatt]

They did adapt. After a parade or Wishes, the parade routes & popular viewing areas look like a war zone. So Disney adapted with Bradley Fighting Hoovers.
Ah, yes. Very magical contraptions, and I have the video (and audio) to prove it.

By the way, interesting use of terms from somebody still "earning their ears" around here.

;)


lllovell, I'm almost with you, but I still get the sense that you are at least somewhat justifying the areas of slippage. This is not a company strapped for capital. What burdens there are have come through a series of questionable investments and underperforming units other than the parks.

Cuts began in ernest at the parks in the 90's, when attendance was still building towards the record levels of 2000. Why? Disney was not cutting things because they couldn't afford to do otherwise. They simply made a decision that they could get a better return than what they were getting.

Then, in the post 9/11 environment, the cuts came hot and heavy. On the surface, with obvious justification. But as time wore on, investors and analysts were told that the company would come out of this period in better shape because some of those cuts and "margin improvements" would become permanent.

Which brings us to where we are today. Some things were restored, others were not, just as the company said would happen. A new park management team seems to at least have a better handle on what the parks are about than the previous Pressler-lead team, but still, we are left to wonder why there have been areas of slippage in Disney's famed customer service.

Other destinations are fully back from the recession and post 9/11 issues. In fact, Central Florida itself is seeing a record number of visitors.

Yet WDW is not seeing those record numbers, and is revamping its pricing and marketing strategies to try to get there. In fact, they are telling us that this is the primary method they will use to achieve their growth targets, not capital investment.

All I ask is that you consider the possibility that the impacts of all of the cuts of the past decade or so are starting to be felt. After all, when a place like WDW makes cuts, guests who have already planned trips aren't likely to cancel. Many only visit every few years, some even less often. It takes time for those cuts to really be felt and understood by its guests (fanatics like us aside).

Of course that doesn't mean nobody likes the place anymore. But its a fine line between what will generate a 3% increase in attendance and a 3% decrease. Yet that kind of difference can be tremendous for the company fiancially.

Yes, they are trying different pricing structures in an event to convince people to visit, stay on-site, and visit longer. This is all well and good. But one can't help but wonder if this has been made necessary at least in part from their own decisions.

Its simple economics. If you decrease the value of what you are offering, in any way shape or form and in even the slightest amount, you risk experiencing a corresponding drop in demand for your product. The consumer isn't going to care if its because more of their brethren leave hamburger wrappers on the table, or if the company has promised margins of over 20%, or if ABC is only just now reaching a point of profitability.

Disney knows, or at least knew, how to do this right. That part of it is not a learning process.

They are trying to fill the hotels, which leads to more income which gives them more to spend on maintenance and other items.

But see, this is a problem. The implication here is that if they aren't making as much money, then they can't spend on maintenance and other related items. That simply hasn't been the case. The company has money for these things, its just a case of deciding what the priorities are.

Beyond that, when you let these things slip, customers will notice and respond. Some will complain on the internet, but most simply say nothing. You don't even know they didn't quite get what they wanted from their trip until its time to plan the next one and they choose another destination, or a shorter WDW trip.

[mitros]

I am going to say it again. There are more people coming to the parks now, Disney is filling the hotels, so why are they still so understaffed at WDW? Maintanence is still lacking at the resorts, rotted wood chipped and peeling paint, bulbs burned out all over the place, food wagons and kiosks are still closed, {causing ridiculous waits at other stands} rides are breaking down {maintenance again,} One CM on a ride where there used to be three, {safety considerations?} on and on, ad infinitum {did I spell that right?} and we are DVC members and go every month, several times in fact. And we see this type of thing all over.
To us, this is just plain sad. We love Disney, and hate to see this stuff going on.

[Goofy4WDW1964]

I base most of my opinions of the state of the parks on my own experiences over the last 10 years. From what I have seen, the state of the parks has declined.

When we were there this June, we experienced several cutbacks. We were in Frontierland one evening back by Thunder Mtn Railroad and Splash Mountain. It was night, but still very hot. We were looking for a place to buy water and couldn't find any in that entire area of the park. I even checked at the Splash Mtn gift shop and they told me that the closest place at that time of night was over in Liberty Square. We couldn't get to Liberty Square because the parade was going on. There were two drink carts in the area but neither one was operating. And there was still two hours of the park being open.

Also, it was extended hours one evening. We asked three different cast members where to check in and get our wrist band and all three sent us to three different places, none of which were correct.

We went to lunch at the Pinochio House in MK one day. By 11:30, the entire place was full with no place to sit down. The entire upstairs station was roped off and empty and remained that way. People have told me that they were probably short staffed. Sorry, not an excuse. There were two CMs standing around leaning on the cleaning carts.

One of my favorites is the combining of Dixie Landings and Port Orleans. I realize that during post 9/11 crowd levels, that cuts had to be made. This is one of them that should have been reversed immediately after attendance began to increase. Each resort should have it's own amenities.

We go to Disney because of the atmosphere. One of the reasons I didn't mind paying more for Disney was because of the service. Not any more. And I never expect anyone to "kiss my butt" while I am there. Each year we have gone, we come back thinking "why didn't we buy into DVC". Now, we come back thinking "we are so glad we didn't buy into DVC". Not because DVC is or has become a bad thing. But, because we are glad we aren't stuck with Disney as our only vacation option. For the first time in ten years, we are planning our next family vacation to a different destination.

[manning]

We go to Disney because of the atmosphere. One of the reasons I didn't mind paying more for Disney was because of the service. Not any more. And I never expect anyone to "kiss my butt" while I am there.

Each year we have gone, we come back thinking "why didn't we buy into DVC". Now, we come back thinking "we are so glad we didn't buy into DVC". Not because DVC is or has become a bad thing. But, because we are glad we aren't stuck with Disney as our only vacation option.

For the first time in ten years, we are planning our next family vacation to a different destination

That speaks volumes for what quality can do for you. There are two ways to cut cost. Maintain quality and cut the cost of having to repeatedly correct defects, or do a fast and dirty across the board cut. You are now seeing the results of the fast and dirty. People are starting to walk. I remember someone say 'work where you are treated decently, if you aren't and good at what you do walk and work somewhere else. It's there loss.' Disney use to get the cream of the crop......no more.

[taximomfor4]

I am one of those Disney fans where I feel Disney can't do wrong. If they did and people really were THAT upset with an incident, we wouldn't have all of these boards with how are the crowds. It seems pretty crowded to me so that can't be doing everything wrong. I work in the travel industry and with regards to the report. Not everything is guaranteed especially when it comes to connecting rooms and non smoking. If people travel enough then they should know that. Otherwise shame on their travel agent who booked them!


:maleficen

19 days till CSR!!!!!!! :wave:

I was the connecting rooms person in the article. It was definitely a bigger deal than just that. My original thread was ASMu Woes, on the trip reports board, with the whole story.

And I have never stayed in any hotel with just me and my 4 kids, and NOT gotten connecting rooms. Its a no-brainer with 4 kids <11. And upon booking ASMu through Special Needs, I had 2 ressie #s because sometimes my dh was going to be there too, and part of the stay he wasn't. Due to their maximum occupancy, we HAD to have 2 rooms connecting.

Anyway, wanna rush back and finish reading this thread. Finals are over, and I am doing lots of NOTHING today!!!!!

Beth

[taximomfor4]

I have been discussing this over on the DVC Community Board and its interesting to me how things take different turns in different conversations. Here is the link to the DVC conversation http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=876928

MY OPINION ON THE ARTICLE:
One of our regular posters pointed out to Mr Passy that the mother who brought her children and needed the joining rooms for medical reasons wasn't sent off to BFE! She was moved to a further building in the resort (how would they even know this? Did the mother actually check the original rooms?) that was *gasp* full of teenagers. No way - an All-Star with school groups? EVERY BUILDING in the All Stars and Pop are full of school groups and its luck if you get close to the foodcourt/lobby area unless you pay the upcharge for a poolside room, and its still a bit of a walk. I HATE Disney's "request" policy concerning medical reasons, etc (they dont seem to have a good standing policy on how to handle REAL medical needs) but I am SURE that mother was told that her adjoining rooms were a request and not a guarantee. I have NEVER called when they didn't tell me that and if I HAD to have things like that, I would not stay on-site or would have stayed at a more expensive home away from home room. The policy becomes limiting, but its my decision to accept it or to stay elsewhere. This person apparently got $100 off (which is over the average cost of a one night stay) which is what Mr. Passy himself said was "industry standard" for handling an upset customer. What else does she deserve? A better policy - maybe...but it is the current policy in place - and I bet ALL of you know that requests are not guaranteed.

.

Ummm, I am that mother. We were given "guaranteed connecting rooms for families" because of part of the stay ONE adult with 4 kids <11, part of the stay 2 adults with 4 kids <11. My dd's special needs are not really anyone on here's particular business, but they were discussed with disneys special services people. Lets just say that the ressies were made for connecting rooms facing no pool or food court (face trees, parking lot, WHATEVER...just not major gathering area)....and in a location not too far from transportation (our own van, or bus stops). Yes, we checked the original building that morning, it was not really near bus stop but was near the parking lot, so we could carry dd to the van if need be. We were reassured at checkin that the rooms DID connect. That evening, we returned, entered our rooms, and there was no connecting door. We spent a long time in the lobby after nobody answered the phone when we called. Had to argue to get what was guaranteed by special services but the only place they could put us was in the very farthest building facing the main courtyard. It was exceedingly far from the bus stop, and very far, even, from the parking lot. And due to some sort of unspecified infestation, the room had just been bugbombed and the carpets cleaned. They were soaked. However it was Easter Sunday, we had driven all the night before to get there and we HAD to put the kids to bed. So we did. We talked to managers, to get more fitting accomodations. Didn't ever work.

HAD my dd ended up having a partial seizure or something (very unpredictable), we would have had to set her up in the lobby. There was no way we would get her out of our van or off the bus, and then all the way to our rooms carrying her.

IF you think we expected too much, that is your opinion. I will stand by that WDW owed us what they promised us. No more, no less. We ended up settling to NOT have our medical needs met, in order to have the connecting door . We got that $100 back, which was NOT a full nights stay. Lets see, I paid $130/night for 2 rooms per night...that is $260 per night. And for what its worth, I asked Guest Services for a full night back, since on Easter Sunday we had no real choice on where to stay. The rest of the week, I suppose we could have fought harder and gotten our ressie cancelled without penalty.

Beth

[taximomfor4]

btw - someone gave me the link for the people staying at the All Stars that are mentioned in the article. I was mistaken about her circumstances (she DID go the appropriate way and use Special Services) and she was treated rather badly.

Sadly, I suspect what happened to this woman is that somoene else showed up in between, raised a total ruckus at the front desk and got themselves into this ladies "connecting" rooms. I don't know this for a fact, but it DOES happen (especially in the DVC side of things with the "room ready" policy).


Matt - I agree, they do have to work on things. They are trying different things currently I believe (there have been so many changes in the last year to tickets, packaging, etc) so it will take a while for them to pan out. You do have to change to the demands of your customers, but this also goes back to things like the food stands being closed example. We gripe about things and they respond - not always well - and yet we are shocked when tickets go up or services go down, etc. Its a hard balancing act.

OOPS, broke my own rule to not post till I had read the whole thread. Sorry, I defended myself already (Ms Motta in the article)...

:grouphug: Beth

[AlanH]

I posted this on another thread but thought those following this thread would find it of interest.

Observations on Management of CMs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The role that hourly CM and first line managers play in the guest experience (for good or bad) at WDW can not be overstated. My wife is a part time hourly CM in merchandising and was full time. While I was searching for a job in Central Florida I also was a part time hourly CM in merchandising.

I believe over the last 50 years our society has changed for the worse in the treatment of hourly workers. Sadly, Disney has been affected by these societal and economic changes.

The widening dispartity in pay between hourly and salaried workers has been well documented. I remember when growing up that many hourly workers in the retail business (such as grocery stores) received competitive enough pay (and retirement benefits) to make a career in their jobs. Sadly these days are over.

This is reflected at Disney in that hourly workers work under a two tier wage system. I understand that the grandfathered hourly workers with a higher hourly rate do not get pay raises but they do get "bonuses". Newer workers get lower wages. In the last union negotiations, Disney wanted to eliminate the Pension Plan for new workers.

Disney has also pushed to fill a higher proportion of the hours worked with part time CMs as a move to cut costs. While there are exceptions, I believe that in general part time CMs are less "engaged" than full time CMs.

This is also reflected in the Training. Traditions used to be a 5 day event. When my wife and I started it was 2 days. Now I understand it is one.

There also does not seem to be enough training and support for first line managers. The quality of first line managers is very uneven. Many first line managers just do not make hourly CMs feel valued or appreciated. This has a great effect on the morale of hourly CMs. On the other hand there are also many first line managers that are terrific; however, I would say most of these have been with Disney for a number of years.

Basically, my feeling is the highest levels of management (Eisner?) instituted policies to improve the bottom line for the short term without considering the long term. Since I have spent my career in human resources, I was able to share my concerns with management. Many of these people were sympathetic and aware of the problems. I would say that even people at the highest levels of management at WDW felt their hands were tied by Burbank. I hope that Bob Iger will be able to change direction at the highest levels and this will enable management at WDW to do what they know in their hearts is best for the long term success of WDW.

I will say that people in Human Resources at WDW work very hard to preserve the magic in spite of the constraints placed on them. There have been many WDW wide gestures that my wife and I as cast members appreciated such as the "job fairs", holiday gifts and the hurricane pin.

My wife Carol and I are big fans of Disney and WDW. It is one of the reasons we moved to Central Florida. We recently became DVC members. Believe me, we wish nothing more than the long term success of WDW.

[lllovell]

Taximom - I also spoke too fast before reading your thread. I have read it and really do believe you were treated badly. I am sure there were a million other things Disney could have done to make your stay better as well. I hope your upcoming trip is wonderful.

Alan - I think your points are quite valid, but how are they going to fix this issue? Disney as a company and the rest of the world are all suffering from it. We want cheap but wonderful and when asked to pay more, most American's balk. Yet, try making a living when you are young (or under skilled) in this country (not talking about Disney specifically here - but the country in general) and you will struggle fiercely. Try raising a family on those $$$ and forget it.

Matt and Mitros - I think I know the difference between our views and maybe it is a trend for a positive future....I am a short timer in the world of WDW. 2.5 years or so at this point. We take several vacations there a year and to me, there was a TON of extra maintenance in the last 18 months or so because of the 50th celebration (lots of refurbing and maintenance). My last trip to the parks was AFTER the celebration began and I didn't see a thing that bothered or upset me concerning the grounds of our hotel (stayed at POFQ) or in the parks or at DTD. I am no oblivious to my surroundings, but I don't search for flaws. I am saddened that you see so much Mitros but I suspect it is because you HAVE been around longer than I and there obviously from many people like you and Matt, there was a drop at some point. My point is that hopefully, what I am seeing is more of a trend towards improvement.

Matt, can you tell me where those numbers coming from (about tourism, etc). Not doubting you, just like having more information where possible.

Laura

[mitros]

And yet Ei$ner kept taking, and taking bigger salaries and bonuses while the CMs sunk lower and lower on the pay scales.
As far as DW and I are concerned, it is the CMs that make Disney Disney. You folks are the day to day front line troops, and if you do not make a guests trip magical and memorable, Disney is NOT going to get repeat business from those guests. And, as badly as Disney treats their CMs, they, almost to the last person try their damndest to make a guests visit a great one. Why in the name of God don't the powers that be treat the CMs with therespect they deserve?

[DisOrBust]

I haven't read thru the whole thread so sorry if ths has been said. I believe this is the report that Pete gave permission to post questions on the boards. I remember reading them on the resort boards....I try to find the link.

[Goofy4WDW1964]

And yet Ei$ner kept taking, and taking bigger salaries and bonuses while the CMs sunk lower and lower on the pay scales.
As far as DW and I are concerned, it is the CMs that make Disney Disney. You folks are the day to day front line troops, and if you do not make a guests trip magical and memorable, Disney is NOT going to get repeat business from those guests. And, as badly as Disney treats their CMs, they, almost to the last person try their damndest to make a guests visit a great one. Why in the name of God don't the powers that be treat the CMs with therespect they deserve?

I agree 100%. This is a huge part of the problem. The CMs are responsible for a lot of the magic that the guests experience. And yet, the company has consistently bankrolled cuts on the their backs. I think that is why unmagical attitudes have become increasingly apparent at WDW. And I don't say that to point fingers at CMs. With what they have put up with, it is bound to happen.

It's easy for a company to treat it's employees well during good times. The true colors of a company shows in how they treat their employees during down times. Disloyalty to your employees breeds disloyalty in your employees.

Now, this doesn't mean that you will never have to make cuts in number of employees, employee pay, employee benefits, etc. What it does mean is that these are last resorts. And, when they do have to be done, you better make sure your upper management is taking the same hits. You don't make cuts and then pay your CEO seven figure bonuses because if you are having to make those cuts, he/she isn't doing his job well enough to get a bonus.

If the CEO doesn't like taking cuts, then show him the door. He isn't needed or wanted. Many people think that if you don't pay the CEO a huge salary, then you won't attract any management talent. You don't think there is a huge list of talented executives that wouldn't take over Disney at half of what Eisner makes?

Ben and Jerry Ice Cream has a policy that the CEO can't make more than a certain percentage more than the lowest paid employee of the company. I don't remember what that percentage is, but it isn't astronomical. That company has a long list of executives waiting to get a chance at that position.

It's a matter of priority, and guest experience has taken a back seat greed.

[FrozenTundra]

I spend three weeks a year in WDW. Without hesitation I can say I've never had a bad experience with a CM. Many have been tremendous and nearly all better then I have experienced at other Orlando area attractions and resorts. Disney may have slipped some, but they are still VERY good at customer service.

I also concur with the thought that John Q Public in general are a bunch of spoiled rotten brats that needed to be beat like a drum. I work in customer service. People are jerks. In Epcot,over at the Expresso stand, I watched a man take his cup of expresso,fill it to the brim with milk - which means his cup was half coffee,half milk - then proceded to LOUDLY verbally abuse the CM because his expresso wasn't HOT. The CM offered him another expresso and the idiot started screaming louder. I think the only reason he left was because a handfull of us in line started refering to him as Richard Cranium.

As for a CM making my trip Magical ??? I'm sorry, but I don't expect a CM to do that for me. I just expect them to do their jobs properly and the Magic will take care of itself.

[mitros]

Very well stated, Goofy4WDW1964!

[DancingBear]

Certainly training and management are key, but I'm sure that a large reason for any decline in the quality of CMs is the extremely low unemployment rate which has been true for some time in Central Florida. When you don't have as many applicants, you have to take folks that you otherwise might not have.

[mitros]

You said a mouthfull. I totally agree with you regarding an ever increasing number of John Q. Public. We were in the bakery on the Boardwalk last April, and this clown comes in with the top of a refillable mug, and said that he lost the mug, and wanted a new one and wanted it filled with soda! :earseek: Enerybody on line looked at this putz with total disbelief. The CM totally kept her cool, and told the guy that she was sorry, but she could not do that, and said if he could produce a receipt for the mug, she would then be able to help him. The guy threw the top on the floor, and stormed out saying "I'll never come to DISNEYLAND again." The nitwit didn't even know where he was! After he left, everyone one line cheered and applauded the CM, and she took a well deserved bow!

[Goofy4WDW1964]

I spend three weeks a year in WDW. Without hesitation I can say I've never had a bad experience with a CM. Many have been tremendous and nearly all better then I have experienced at other Orlando area attractions and resorts. Disney may have slipped some, but they are still VERY good at customer service.

I also concur with the thought that John Q Public in general are a bunch of spoiled rotten brats that needed to be beat like a drum. I work in customer service. People are jerks. In Epcot,over at the Expresso stand, I watched a man take his cup of expresso,fill it to the brim with milk - which means his cup was half coffee,half milk - then proceded to LOUDLY verbally abuse the CM because his expresso wasn't HOT. The CM offered him another expresso and the idiot started screaming louder. I think the only reason he left was because a handfull of us in line started refering to him as Richard Cranium.

As for a CM making my trip Magical ??? I'm sorry, but I don't expect a CM to do that for me. I just expect them to do their jobs properly and the Magic will take care of itself.

We never used to encounter any bad CMs. But, in the last three years, we have. Now, we still encounter far more good CMs than bad. And, as I stated, I think this is due to how they have been treated. I don't think the ratio of bad CMs is too far off of the ratio of spoiled roten brats in John Q Public. I have never in my 8 trips to WDW raised my voice to a CM. And, although I have witnessed it, it is still very far from the norm.

I don't expect the CMs to make my trip magical. Maybe what I should have typed was that the CMs and what they do are one of the major reasons WDW is so magical.

An example of the bad. We had been to the MK one day last year. We usually take our time leaving the MK after the fireworks in order to let the crowds disperse. We usually stroll Main Street and look through the shops. We have done this every year since 1996. We left the MK and road the monorail over to the TTC. It was empty when we got there, no big surprise. We didn't see any trams. There was a CM walking through so I stopped and politely asked him if the trams were still running. He didn't say one word. He shrugged his shoulders and walked on. It wasn't a big deal that they weren't. We were not parked that far out. I didn't ask him to carry me and my family to our car on his back. But he was extremely rude. Yes, some may say that it was late, he was tired, he had a bad day. All could be true. It was late, for me too. I was in the same time zone as him. I had had a long day too. I was tired. I was polite in asking and I was polite even after his response.

Another example occured at Restauranosoris. We went there for lunch at 11:00. We ordered. My wife and son went to get a table and I waited at the counter to get our food and drinks. A large group of small children, with chaperones, came in after us. They brought our tray of food to me at the counter. There were not any drinks. I stopped a young lady as she was walking by behind the counter and ask her about our drinks. She turned and curetly told me that she was busy and walked on. I ask the next person if she could get our drinks. She told me that she would get them as soon as she finished getting the group of kids drinks. Now, when i say group of kids, there were about 30 in this group. I asked to speak to the manager who came up. I explained to her that I needed drinks. They had brought my food and if I had to wait until they filled 30 other drinks, my food was going to be cold. She fixed my drinks and we went on with our lunch.

These are just two examples, of several lately that we have noticed. Again, this is a small percentage of CMs. A vast majority still work their magic.

[raidermatt]

Matt, can you tell me where those numbers coming from (about tourism, etc). Not doubting you, just like having more information where possible.
No problem. Most of it is anecdotal, but here's something from The Maui News, dated 7/1/05. Article titled "State sets tourist arrivals record in May; Maui records tiny gain". (Couldn't find a link. I have a printed edition because we have a Friday subscription).

The state set a record of tourist arrivals in May, although Maui island posted only a tiny gain of 0.1 percent to 175,203... One reason Maui's headcount is not showing big gains is that, with the exception of the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort, which will not be fully operational for a few months, no resorts have been built for 11 years... The rest of the state generally showed bigger growth in the headcount, and May set an all-time record with 567,476 visitors, up 4% over May 2004... Daily spending averaged $176, up $4...

Here's an excerpt from an article in the Orlando Sentinel:

While visitation is at record levels -- nearly 51 million tourists are expected to come to Central Florida this year, a 5.9 percent increase from last year -- the pace is not as brisk as it sometimes was in the past decade, when increases hovered around 10 percent.

Here is the link to that article, along with a link to the thread where it was discussed here awhile back. There's actually a lot of interesting points in it.

OSent Article (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-asecdisney01050105may01,1,3139764.story)

"No 5th park" thread (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=814006)



On this whole issue of the public causing more trouble than in the past, again, that probably is true. But the majority of the public still mind their p's and q's, and regardless, Disney has to find ways to maintain their product in the environment in which they exist, or they will suffer the consequences.

[FrozenTundra]

Matt, I think one of the biggest differences between people of today and in the past is this thing we refer to as "entitlement".

In the past, if you complained to your CM (or any waiter for that matter) about the quality of the meal, you were almost embarrassed to accept a comp meal as a means of satisfaction.

Today, people are expecting a $200.00 meal to be comp'ed if a diner roll isn't warm enough.

[raidermatt]

Again, though, I'm not arguing that things have not moved in that direction.

But why does that mean they can't pick up the garbage as often, or change the lightbulbs as often?

You can't tell me its because they have to spend the money on the $200 comp'd meal, because even with the increase in that type of thing, their income and revenue have continued to rise over the years. Yes, people are more demanding these days, but they are also spending more money. Entitlement maybe higher among us than our parents, but so is our disposable income. (Generic "our". I can honestly say I have NEVER asked for a comp in my life.)

If anybody has a solution to reversing the entitlement and lack of personal responsibility trends, by all means, share it and lets get to work on it. I'm all for it.

In the meantime, however, things are what they are, and no business can do anything about it. All they can do is choose how they will react to it. As I said before, two choices. 1- Throw up their hands and blame the public for the detioration of the product. 2- Take the bad with the good and maintain their product regardless.

Guess which path I think Disney should take?

[rocketriter]

I wonder if it's really true that the public is more difficult today than in the past. I recall that in the 60s, pundits were running around with their hair on fire complaining about a collapse of public behavior that turned out not to be real. This is something that large organizations like Disney probably keep quantifiable statistics on: ratios of irrational complaints pegged against factors like crowd density, weather and so forth.

My own suspicion is that the public is not acting any worse than usual and is not more demanding than in the past; there are jerks in every generation. But CMs (who have always been underpaid) receive significantly less customer service training than in the past and are probably demoralized by events of the long (Eisner era) and short (9/11) term, so they may not be handling the public as well. And who can blame them if this is the case. If so, the solution is not to spank the public, it's to improve both the training and the care and feeding of CMs.

Of course, that's only my suspicion. What I'd like to read is measured facts, not just suspicion--even my own!

[FrozenTundra]

Maybe I'm just starting to show my age Rocket, but I've had direct dealings with customer service for the last 15 years and IMO the Jerk-to-Good Guy ratio seems to be changing almost daily.

As you said, CM's have always been underpaid - after adjusting for inflation it may be that todays CM's are making less then in the past, but I really don't know for sure - so what has changed over the years ?

Are CM's demoralized by what they see in upper management to the point that they just don't care anymore ?

Are they frustrated by ignorant people who drop trash & ruin bathrooms for no other reason then "they can" ?

Is the quality of todays young workforce vastly inferior to past generations ?
( Based solely on my hiring & firing experience, I think this is becoming a very big issue. However, some of the best young workers I have ever witnessed work in DTD at The Earl of Sandwich.)

More then likely it' a combination of all three.

So what is the answer ?

Honestly, how many articles have you read where the people have been dissatisfied with the quality, variety and quantity or rides,shows,resorts or restaurants at WDW ? What you read about are people issues. People don't get angry at a ride that breaks down. They get angry if they don't feel a CM cares that it broke down.

Maybe instead of investing $100 million into the next coaster they should pump those $$ into training, additional help & few extra bucks in the pay envelope.

[crusader]

Matt, I think one of the biggest differences between people of today and in the past is this thing we refer to as "entitlement".

I'd add that the rate of consumption has risen to an all time high in this environment. Think back - thirty years ago to what the park looked like. The volume of trinkets, and consumable goods being sold was substantially less due to the constraint of the family budget and typical guest habits.

Today, we're surrounded by merchandise, packaging and junkfood which have led to some pretty bad habits regarding responsibility and cleanup. We see it in every entertainment venue around - ballparks, theatres, themeparks, the boardwalk, etc....... - people leave their trash for an employee to pick up.

Disney is no exception. I'm wondering if this is an in-house or outsourced shift in their workforce.

[rocketriter]

In the last few posts we've not agreed about whether or not the public has grown more irresponsible. (As I said in an earlier posting, I'm more likely to believe well-researched statistics than hunches, even my own.) But I find it interesting that we do agree on the need for improved training and care of CMs. Does anyone know if internal policy at the parks is shifting in that direction, or is this just wishful thinking?

[AlanH]

First, thank you all for the sympathic words. I know that I can speak for my wife on this in addition to speaking for myself. Both my wife and I greatly appreciate the magical experiences we have had and continue to have at WDW as guests. Therefore, she wants and I wanted to do everything we can to make to experience of being at WDW just as "magical" as it has been and continues to be for us.

Laura (lllovell), you ask a good question. Quite frankly I believe the marginal increase in cost to address these issues at WDW will be more than made up over the long run by increased revenue at WDW. There are a number of issues

1. The maintenance and upkeep. I think most will agree that over the long term deferred maintenance is more expensive than regular maintenace. In addition I believe the additional money spent to see that the light bulbs are replaced, and the parks and resorts are kept clean and freshly painted will pay dividends in the positive guest experience and "word of mouth" recommendations to other people. The reason much maintainence is done while the parks are open is due to management trying to again save money by not paying a "third shift" pay differential. Again I think the marginal increase in cost to do more work on the "third shift" will pay more dividends in the increased guest experience.

2. Management of hourly CMs and first line managers. I'll repeat myself, these people are key to the guest experience. About 90% of guest interaction is with hourly CMs. About another 9% is with first line managers. In addition, the first line managers are crucial to creating "The Work Experience" for the hourly CMs. I believe the additional money spent in training and support for first line managers would greatly enhance the "The Work Experience" for both the first line managers (because now they will feel valued) and the hourly CMs. This will translate into better service to the guests. And again over the long term increased revenues to WDW. By the way I am a compensation and benefits professional. While increased pay and benefits are appreciated, do not underestimate the importance of "The Work Experience". In my experience this can be addressed for a lot less money than pay and benefit increases. But it all starts with top management.

3. Labor Relations. The Labor Relations area must take a less confrontational postion with the unions. Obviously, the positions taken by Labor Relations in the last union negotiations were a direct result of policy set at Burbank. The original position taken by the company in negotiations would have resulted in anywhere from a 5 to 10% cut in take home pay and less benefits to boot. This did not sit well with many hourly CMs when revenues at WDW where close to an all time high and upper management (Eisner) was getting milliions in bonuses and stock options and the company was the defendent in a shareholder lawsuit for paying millions of dollars in serverence to a former President. Mitros, your point is well taken.

Goofy4WDW1964, I agree with everything you said, except maybe I'm just too nice a person to accuse people at Disney of greed.

FrozenTundra, I agree that guest service at WDW is very good. But there are many CMs who strive for excellence. Unfortunately, Disney fails to give us all the tools and support to succeed. Also, in my experience (and I think my wife agrees) we have run into few guests who are unreasonable or feel "entitled". But they do exist.

Crusader, FYI the actual clean-up of the Parks and Resorts at WDW is done by hourly CMs not contractors.

Rockitriter, we have not seen any changes yet at the hourly CM level. But it wouldn't surprize me if increased training and support is being discussed at various management levels. Disney still has a very good training infrastructure.