Reduced Hours Confirmed!! - How sad.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well read it and weep! I found this item reported on my Newsgroup and also Dave Koenig, from MousePlanet is reporting the same thing.

Reduced Adventureland Hours Article (http://www.mouseplanet.com/david/wdwcuts.htm)

I don't know if you really care about this issue or not. For me it is of paramount importance. Recently, the executives at Disney seem to have this 'herd' mentality. They want to keep the numbers of guests in a particular attraction or area high enough to justify its existence. So we can all kiss goodbye the wonderful, special, and magic filled moments that we can all experience from time to time, by discovering that little out of the way area that is a little less crowded than usual. Or that attraction that can be walked right on to at a certain time of day. They seem very intent on herding us into lines, with blatant disregard for guest satisfaction.

Another case of the bottom line greatly overshadowing the Disney experience! What a loss. How sad that this mentality is becoming more and more acceptable. It appears that it is now the norm rather than the rare exception! :(

[Peter Pirate]

Even I think this is sad, sad, sad. Surely there can be other ways to save a couple of bucks. I dislike these things being slid in, no explanation, no comment. The reduction of MK Park hours this summer was really ridiculous and this is coming from someoone who spends little time at MK, but the time I used to like to spend was late evening...Now this! I have always supported cost cutting measures when they've made sense to me, but on this I agree Landbaron, this affects the Show directly. We're not talking Valet Parking or slow bus transportation, we're talking about the REAL DEAL SHOW...
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[All Aboard]

Well doesn't this just stink. I really hate to see this happen, I did not expect anything quite like this. Now I'm really fearful that we'll see more of this type of thing. What scares me the most is that even if conomic conditions find their stride again, these changes may become permanent. I'm not making any more excuses for WDW now, it's official - I'm in Car #2 (which I defined as "The Magic has faded a bit, but I am optimistic that it will make a full return.) I continue to hold optimism, but things like these have me worried. Landbaron knows how I feel. Sorry Captain, Duck, Scoop... hope I'm back soon.

So, I guess the 100% of the Splash Dash will run through Liberty Square now!!

[YoHo]

Okay, I just got done ranting on the Debate board about threads wasting server space and you three, are my DIS buds and all, but was there some reason we had to start a new thread instead of replying to one with a very descriptive WDW Adventurland hours topic started at 8am CDT this morning?

Sorry, to be a pain, Like I said, still on a high from my Debate board rant.


By the way, this sucks. Waiting for Safari Steve Confirmation on the other thread.

[DisDuck]

Someone should find the appropriate e-mail address (particularly, Pressler's) and all 20,000+ members of DIS should immediately send off a note on this.

You see, DVC, not everything done I agree with. I actually liked the idea of walking thru a quiet but open Adventureland on my way to Frontierland. If this remains then when I go in June/2002 all I will hear is the 'sounds of silence'.

[DVC-Landbaron]

was there some reason we had to start a new thread instead of replying to one with a very descriptive WDW Adventurland hours topic started at 8am CDT this morning? Yeah! There certainly is! One of the best reasons I can think of. When I discovered the MousePlanet article, in my zeal to bring you the hottest of Disney news, I made a mistake and hit the 'new thread' button. I noticed it right away and tried to delete it (many times) but it just wouldn't let me!! I don't know why, I had done it before, but for some reason this time I couldn't do it.

Sorry!!

:eek: :o :o :eek:

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK gang!! Just for informational purposes only and specifically NOT an aspect of an organized campaign, the following is offered:

Mr. Michael Eisner
Chairman & Chief Executive Officer
The Walt Disney Company
500 South Buena Vista Street
Burbank, CA 91521-4873

Mr. Paul Pressler
Chairman & President
Walt Disney Parks & Resorts
500 South Buena Vista Street
Burbank, CA 91521-4873

Mr. Al Weiss
President
The Walt Disney World Resort
PO Box 10040
Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830

Or you can zip off an e-mail HERE (http://disney.go.com/Mail/DisneyWorld/index.html)

Now don't just give lip service. DO IT!!!!!

Thanks.

[HBK]

Did they cut the prices of your admission pass to correspond to the reduction of things to do?

That was a hypothetical by the way.

In case some of you don't know, there is currently a lawsuit running against Six Flags re: their Pay for fast pass program. The basis of the lawsuit is this....The woman is arguing that the pay for fast pass actually devaulues her previously purchased season pass.

Couldn't one make the same arguement that cutting back hours to guests who have previously purchased park media under the assumption that all functioning rides would be open during the park's operating hours?

This move stinks. There's no way to put it, and I find some of the cross overs (car pool wise) interesting, and sad for Disney's sake. It appears even their most staunch supporters are starting to become disenchanted.

Sad.

[YoHo]

Sorry Landbaron, You see, My beef was twofold,
1: I saw that you had posted a comment on the rumours board and rushed to gleen your insight only to find that it was a topic previously covered (thus disappointment)
2: Had to stick up for the little guy, you'll noticed you commanded the attention of the Peter Pirate, Gcurling, DisDuck and HBK.
Let the little guy get some posts too :)

At any rate, I'm just yanking Chains.

The most depressing thing is that I'm reminded that PotC is no longer an E-night attraction. Stupid modern society failing to see that this is the greatest attraction ever conceived. :) Spiderman isn't fit to be PotC's preshow. :):)

Again, still waiting for the Safari Steve confirmation.

[gary]

My gut feeling about a cut like this is I HATE IT!, and (thanks Landbaron!) the Disney powers-that-be will be getting a letter from me. Not that I have any expectation of the letter making it past the N levels of flunkies (some admin somewhere will probably be responsible for making a PRO/CON tally sheet and sending out "Thank you for your comments regarding..." form letters).

But... (god, I hate doing the Devil's Advocate thing) if the attendance at the park is so light as to keep an entire land's worth of CMs sitting around for an hour with their thumbs... well, you know, then maybe it makes some kind of sense. I'm really struggling to be reasonable and objective here, because I HATE IT! And, of course, being a Californian, I've seen it many times at Disneyland... that stupid rope with the stupid blue pennant standing between me and my stupid fix of stupid Jungle Cruise jokes!

Spin - if you close the whole park, then open up the most popular attractions, it's popular enough that you can charge people for it. If you open the park, but keep a less popular small section closed off, you get burned at the stake. Funny how marketing can influence perception.

One final note - even if it's economically acceptable, it is an unacceptable intrusion into the (oft-discussed) SHOW. I really liked the comment in the article about how Walt wanted everything open if the park was open. Sometimes you need to spend money and make a little less profit, and just worry about doing it right!

Gary

[JeffJewell]

...to notice what sorts of straws will end up breaking different camel's backs.

I didn't comment on the other "hours cut" thread because this didn't seem like a big deal to me, at all, particularly compared to the other ways they've "saved money" recently.

Back in the middle of May I had a few public meltdowns on the boards about Disney cutting hours (to whole parks, mind you, not limited to one low-traffic area) at Magic Kingdom, Disney Studios, and Animal Kingdom, anywhere from five to two(!) weeks before the cuts went into effect. And eliminating several SpectroMagic and Fantasmic performances per week with the same amount of warning. And cancelling meals for which they had already issued PS numbers. Again, all this was done long after a vactioner could reasonably expect to make new PS to accomodate new show times and closed restaurants.

All that seemed okay to quite a few folks on the boards who vigorously defended Disney at that time, including at least two who've posted their disappointment in this thread, after telling me that my earlier complaints were unfounded Disney-bashing.

So come on (both of you should know who you are), explain to me how this can be such a bad thing, when you argued so vehemently in May that those cuts weren't bad at all?

Jeff

PS - No, of course I'm not defending Disney for this, I think it's a stupid way to save a relatively inconsequential amount of money. It's just very interesting to me that a whole series of last-minute cuts that directly affected people's vacations was largely blown off by people who suddenly discover outrage over a single cut that will ultimately have little direct affect on what a person can or can't do on their trip.

[larworth]

Following on the rumors about higher maintenance budgets, some of the supporting comments by CM's, and the fact that several rides were going into rehab just prior, I assumed they were at least planning to start off Walt's celebration with their best parade face on.

Why not wait until after the holidays to inact this. It would still be the wrong thing to do, but it would have less of an immediate impact on guests and be a little more PR friendly. They don't think the timing here is bad?

[DVC-Landbaron]

The most depressing thing is that I'm reminded that PotC is no longer an E-night attraction. Stupid modern society failing to see that this is the greatest attraction ever conceived.I don't think that's the right take on it. First of all there is location. Pirates is tucked away a little. And it is also one of the older rides, so many repeats defer it to times when the lines are shorter or skip it altogether, catching it next year instead. There isn't that 'rush' for it first thing off the bat that they never really recover from and therefore keeps the line extremely long all day. And lastly, it is very quick loading and can utilize both queues at the same time. We therefore have an attraction that never has a line over 30 minutes and many, many times, you can walk right on. A constant stream, but never overly backed up. The Country Bears is the same way and Haunted Mansion was as well before they, stupidly, instituted fastpass there (and still most times the fastpass return is only fifteen to minutes later than waiting). I think that huge back up in the morning really effects a good part of the day.

As far as e-ticket worthy, I think the decision lies mainly with opening up Advetureland for just that one ride. It certainly has more appeal that the Peoplemover, but because it doesn't have extremely long lines during normal business hours many people wouldn't consider wasting part of their precious three hours trekking over to Pirates when any afternoon can result in the same wait time!! The only reason Country Bears, Haunted Mansion and especially the Peoplemover is included in e-ticket nights is because of their location. If they were in another land there isn't a chance in hell that they would be e-ticket rides! Conversely, Peter Pan and the new Pooh ride should be, but they don't want to open Fantasyland!!

No, e-tickets are really not for e-ticket rides (although they usually fall that way), it's for 'hot' ticket attractions or conveniently grouped attractions in a location (along with appropriate shops and food stands) as to justify the "Land's" opening.

[Another Voice]

Well this one certainly brought back everyone. As gary and the article both described, we in the West been living with these “guest service” issues for a long time now. It’s safe to say that the lower attendance at WDW has little to do with the closing, and the financial burdens being placed on Attractions is the primary cause. For five years now the Parks have been the growth and cash generator for the company. With the problems at Consumer Products, Networks, and Film you can guess which division is being squeezed to make up the earnings shortfalls?

The closings at Disneyland started at the height of the economy and of attendance, and they provided a real nice boost in the numbers that Mr. Pressler reported to his boss. The cutbacks became standard practice out here and those “temporary” cost savings became permanent and were built into Disneyland’s expected financial performance. And now that things are soft, the first response to make even deeper cuts than closing off lands and attractions. We’re looking at having whole parks closed for the entire day – another “temporary” measure to cut costs. As the saying goes, trends start in California.

Speaking of trends, the new McDonalds stand inside Disneyland just opened. They’re charging $2.50 for a medium order of fries. Rumors are claiming a general price hike on all food is just around the corner.

[Buzz2001]

This is ridiculous. If a park opens, it should ALL be open to the guests. More of Pressler trying to keep the stock holders happy by providing a bigger dividend.

I am going to send a letter. Thanks for the addreses landbaron

[hulabird]

I have no doubt that Walt is rolling in his grave with anger over this!
This is stupid and then they wonder why attendance is down.

Hulabird

http://www.disneyclipart.com/images23/Parks/DisneyWorld/Resorts/carib01a.gif

[DC7800]

This seems like a bad idea on several fronts. First, I can't see how it saves all that much money. Disney basically saves the cost of wages and little else (power, fuel???). Items like maintenance are still going to cost about the same. I don't see how this adds up to significant savings.

Secondly, I know Disney is expensive (and I am not advocating this) but wouldn't raising ticket prices by a few dollars (literally $3) make a bigger difference in the bottom line than all the closings/reduced hours we've heard about so far? If I'm going to pay even current prices, I want a quality experience which exceeds my expectations - and I would rather pay lust a little more than be disappointed (considering what my vacation costs, the extra $10-$15 is nothing).

Finally, this is confusing to guests. Who can keep track of the current "odd" attraction hours? Lets see - I have to see the Hall of Presidents before 6, but no, it's closed anyway. Ok, I'll see COP after 11 but by 5 p.m., then catch the Tiki Birds after dinner. Oops, The Tiki Room closed about 6 p.m. too. I could head over to Epcot for the evening, but just what are the reduced hours I heard for The Living Seas?

[All Aboard]

JJ, for me it comes down to this. MK closes as early as 6 or 7pm during the slower times of the year. It's open later on Saturdays and an hour later here or there depending on anticipated traffic. In the summer it's open even later. Closing time is an adjustable thing. It's been that way for a long time. When they adjusted the closing times v. last year, it seemed in response to anticipated lighter crowds. I could buy that. I didn't like it, but it seemed a responsible reaction to the conditions. Yes, I'm concerned that it's permanent. I don't recall telling you that you were bashing Disney uneccesarily, but if I did, I apologize. Also, earlier this year (before I got to know everyone here better) I felt like the lone voice in defense of Disney amongst a bunch of folks that had it in for the mouse. I reactively defended in almost every case.

However, this is more petty and the financial impact seems fairly small. Let's assume that 20 employees show up an hour later to work now. That's a savings of maybe $200 a day. Big deal. And for that, we get a roped off major area of the park. It stinks, it really does. We just keep getting more and more bad news. Others have "had it" earlier. With Yoho it was the rumored elimination of resort water launches (if I recall). This just pushed me a little further. It's petty, silly and totally unwarranted. Are we to assume that every attraction or land will begin to have it's own schedule now? Seems that way. First it was ToonTown then CoP, then Tiki Birds, then Timekeeper, now all of Adventureland. What about Asia? That was rumored to be opening an hour later, as well.

[larworth]

This is just a temporary measure until the new sensors can get installed.

Whenever the attendence in a land falls below a certain level (that needed to cover the out of pocket cash flow target) an evacuation horn sounds. Everyone is forced to exit and that land remains closed for the next hour. By that time demand should have built up enough to justify opening back up (at least that is the theory at this point). If this happens more than twice that land is closed down for the remainder of the day.

In fact this will be made into a type of attraction. Signs will be posted around the park warning guests when attendance in a location is getting close to the closure level. They believe people will naturally be drawn to the endangered land to keep it from closing. The 100th new person to enter will be given a pin.

This will make people feel very empowered. This magical feeling has been shown to make people want something to commemorate the event. T-shirts will be placed in all the shops saying things like "I saved Frontierland".

[JeffH]

I also understand that if an attraction fails to fill three cars in a row, then all the CMs must take their 15 minute break, at which time the line will have backed up sufficiently to keep them busy until their next break.
;)
Seems rediculus to me.
20 CMs seems about right (including the shops).
That would be about = to about 4 paying customers.

[HBK]

What is the only new attraction built in WDW during the past year?

The Aladdin Spinner.

What land does this new attraction call it's home?

That's right Adventureland.

So Disney puts it's only new attraction into an area which it reduces hours to?

Sounds like perfect Pre$$ler logic to me.

[Peter Pirate]

Well JJ, since gcurling responded I assume that leaves me (as the other malcontent) to tell my side, although I feel a little indignant about it - that's tounge in cheek.

I agree with gcurling that the issues involved here seem strictly monetary, short term & rather miniscule to boot. I am disappointed with how the summer hours worked out and if you'll recall (I think) you'll see that I wasn't defending those decisions as much as agreeing to a certain understanding of them. You and I have this constant go around when I defend something because I (think) I can understand it, you automatically think I agree with it - which often just isn't true. But I have a pragmatic side that always creeps into my thought process - the part of my brain that drives Landbaron crazy, I'd guess. Anyway, this event won't affect me or my enjoyment at all. We never go during these hours and visit MK less than all of the other Parks, but this is like the straw that broke the camel's back, IMO. It (the decision)seems quite lightweight and counterproductive and I may view these (types of operating decisions) with a little more skepticism than before. gcurling has been picked up by car # 2 and while I'm not jumping yet, we're stopped at a light and the door is open. I have always said don't mess with the Parks...I'm not sure of the Captain's position on this topic as he is sailing the Seven Seas Lagoon looking for mermaids...
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[Safari Steve]

This is not to confirm or deny, that's not my job. Just wanted to mention that Pirates was only an E-ride attraction for 2 weeks when the program started. Pirates is used as a replacement when Mansion has a convention or a rehab, but other than that (and the previously stated first two weeks) Pirates has never been an e-ride attraction.
Also... JeffH, was that a joke? It must have been, because it certainly isn't true. We consistently have times at Mansion when we have 12+ buggies go by empty. Smetimes we have a whole cycle empty (that's 160 cars)... Where did you hear that? or were you joking?
I'm sure that the hours will go back to normal once we return to high season... I hope...
This is really a blow to my "That only happens to un-popular areas and attractions" mentality. I guess we're just not cool. While writing letters is very good and helpful and all, ultimately, they are just letters. If (and I'm not saying anyone should actually do this) there were a HUGE line every day at the Adventureland bridge (I'm talking like filling the entire alcove) the hours would probably be changed back more quickly. It wouldn't happen that day (or even that week) because schedules are generated two weeks in advance, and if the area isn't scheduled to be open, no one is scheduled to open it. It always makes me feel better when most of the people waiting at the bridge are waiting for Jungle Cruise and Pirates rather than Splash and Thunder (although that's only happened three times while I was present)...
Kun-ga...loosh.

[JeffH]

look for the ;) it means just kidding

I was just adding on to larworth's absurd (and funny) 'rumor'.
But it's scary that you, a CM, actually considered it possibly true:eek:

[Safari Steve]

I wasn't duped, just concerned that you had been. (although the ;) should have tipped me off.)

[DVC-Landbaron]

First of all, I’d like to say that I am glad this little tidbit spurred so much attention. And to Gcurling, let me say, “Welcome to car #2!” It is a car I hop in every once in a while, especially when blinded by a stay in WDW!! And I really don’t want to counter this wonderful reaction and outpouring of overtly hostile Ei$ner bashing, but I really have to throw in with JeffJewell on this one, who wrote: I didn't comment on the other "hours cut" thread because this didn't seem like a big deal to me, at all, particularly compared to the other ways they've "saved money" recently.I too am a little confused.

Maybe it’s akin to finally realizing that your significant other IS having and affair. Or that your business partner really IS stealing you blind. You can then look back at all those admittedly little and seemingly insignificant signs and signals that were ‘explained’ away and ‘justified’, and find you’ve been duped the entire time!! I mean what is really different between this clearly outrageous, stupid and penny-pinching move and closing the entire park two hours early when crowds are at the all time ‘summer-moths’ high? Or canceling the second parade or Fantasmic show, thus cramming everyone (herding if you will) together, minimizing costs but severely damaging guest satisfaction and the SHOW? Or closing CoP early for the last several years? Which has carried over to Tiki Birds, Cranium Command, Circle of Life, Food Rocks, and countless other ‘attractions’. DC7800 writes: Finally, this is confusing to guests. Who can keep track of the current "odd" attraction hours? Lets see - I have to see the Hall of Presidents before 6, but no, it's closed anyway. Ok, I'll see COP after 11 but by 5 p.m., then catch the Tiki Birds after dinner. Oops, The Tiki Room closed about 6 p.m. too. I could head over to Epcot for the evening, but just what are the reduced hours I heard for The Living Seas?OH!! How very right you are!! And I’m an old-timer!! What about those ‘new’ families, you know, the ones you want to capture for the next generation? Time for a true story:

On our second to last night in WDW we found ourselves in EPCOT. We had not visited the Land yet so, after a fine Italian dinner we headed over to that pavilion. A couple days before this we had found that Food Rocks closed at 7:00 pm. (this warranted a trip to guest relations, but that’s another story). Now, I’m not a great fan of Food Rocks, but there is a definite appeal to the younger generation. It is something that my children simply love. We caught the last show. When we were exiting a young family came in. A mother with three little kids (all under ten). The CM told her she missed the last show. She said that was impossible as it was just a little after 7:00 and she was told that EPCOT was opened until 9:00. She further said that it was the last day and she had let the kids pick their favorite rides to go on one last time. The other two older children had chosen and been accommodated. Her youngest child picked Food Rocks. She had planned the day perfectly and even allowed enough time to park hop. She walked away dejected trying to explain to her five year old that the ride was closed.

I thought about these boards at the time and was very tempted to interject that she really shouldn’t expect a ride or attraction, with such poor nighttime attendance to be opened at all hours. She should just explain to her daughter that Disney closed the ride early to save a little money. After all, Disney has to make a profit, don't they? What’s so hard to understand about that!!?? I mean these are tough times, right? Disney can’t keep everything opened, all the time, just to insure that the guests are satisfied. How outrageous!! I was further tempted to point out the nice food court and plush shop across the way. Those were still opened. Maybe her daughter would want to buy something instead.

END OF STORY

Guys, I really like the support on this issue, but quite frankly, I don’t see the difference. Expect perhaps that one directly affects you and the other doesn’t. But I would think that you could embrace the concept without any direct involvement. In other words (Peter or Cpatian) the following is just as important as anything else that effects the SHOW even if it doesn’t directly effect you. We're not talking Valet Parking or slow bus transportation, we're talking about the REAL DEAL SHOWIt’s all the REAL DEAL SHOW, my good Captain. It all is!! I haven’t ridden in the Poly Launch since I stayed there, over twenty years ago. If they keep them or not has no bearing on my Disney experience, in the least. EXCEPT in the sense of the bigger picture. Something we should all be concerned with!! Which is why I still have such a good time in WDW even with cut hours and a myriad of other smaller complaints. And conversely, that is why a list of ‘wonderful Disney things’ is so inappropriate in these discussions. It’s how these moves affect the big picture that’s important. NOT the individual’s experience. That’s anecdotal at best and most times absolutely inconsequential. When they adjusted the closing times v. last year, it seemed in response to anticipated lighter crowds. I could buy that. I didn't like it, but it seemed a responsible reaction to the conditions. Yes, I'm concerned that it's permanent. I don't recall telling you that you were bashing Disney unnecessarily, but if I did, I apologize.Or is it that you finally stopped believing Disney’s spin, awe heck, let’s call it what it is, outrageous LIES. Like the outright lie Greg Emmer told me, personally, in 1999, that the reason the MK closed early was because summer was over!! This was on August 1st!! But according to him summer was over! Why? I asked, dumbfounded. Well, he said, Orlando schools were back in session, so summer must be over!! And guess what. He was right! Orlando schools were back in session. It seems they were playing with a year round system for a year or two, something Mr. Emmer omitted. He didn’t say that it was the direct result of the wildfire that they mistakenly thought would keep the tourists away. Or the fact the e-ticket nights were a moneymaker that they were trying to implement. Instead he lied and said summer was over!!! And when I suggested that it was because of the fires and that e-tickets were a blatant rip-off, know what he did? Offered me free e-night tickets for my entire group of eighteen!! And I, like a dummy, refused. Instead I asked him to fix it. He said he would. What I dope I was. In the mean time they robbed me of another hour!!! But, it certainly opened my eyes to the way they do business. You could hear my glasses fall to the floor, rose-colored lenses breaking forever!!!

[Peter Pirate]

Well, Landbaron, we won't (probably ever) agree on all of the details...Valet parking will NEVER hold any Disney magic for me - free or not. Nice? Yes. Make me feel like a big shot? Yes. Magic? No) - And I thought my position on this issue would please you guys. I find this decision totally ridiculous and uncalled for even though it WILL NOT AFFECT me at all. We never visit the MK early and we visit that Park least often, but sometimes it's the little thing that makes you take notice. For example, I can understand the logic in charging for valet like every other first class hotel. It will definately return some profit. But what gain could be garnered by a late opening? It would be miniscule at best (offset by ill will) so this act, this "little thing" hits home more than a seemingly bigger item (in my eyes).

It is true that this "little thing" sparked in me a distrust for things that perhaps until now I didn't think was happening. And I apologize to JJ if this was part of his perception for what was happening with the Park hour decline, but I didn't see it then.

But, I reiterate that I see no loss of Magic in losing the valet parking and I do feel the Magic when I stay at the S/D, so you either must accept that I join the ranks of the distrusting and still accept my hope for the future and the fact that I will see certain things differently than you or we'll have no more to discuss (I can hear the screams of people cheering the apparent departure of Pirate & Crook)...

In closing, I have already e-mailed a detailed complaint through Disney.com...But I am still planning my Labor Day 4 night stay at AKL Concierge! I will be self parking and smiling while I think of Landbaron's commentary during my walk from the parking lot to the Lodge!
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[airlarry!]

I do not care why a person picks this issue to get enraged. That is why they call it "the straw that breaks a camel's back." I say welcome to the Disney Crusade.


What I do find sad about this abomination, is that the quotable Walt would probably tell us that the Walt Man himself would never do this. In fact, Baron, we ought to start a new list, a list of things that Ei$ner (yes, I have finally given in to the temptation to spell it that way) does that Walt would never do. Call it the Ei$nerisms.

Or maybe the Quotable Ei$ner. ;)

From this topic, we have learned an Ei$nerism:

"I don't mind seeing areas, attractions, or shops closed, if it means the bottom line is improving. We must always remember that this all started out because of an invested dollar." (not a real quote of course).

What he means: If an area or attraction is not popular, do *not* fix this problem, instead change the hours of operation. Put on an economic band-aid, if you will, instead calling up Dr. Imagineer.

You see, Baron, I've been upset about moves like this all the way back to the idiotic and "temporary" decision to shutter World Showcase until 11:00 a.m. on most days (when Epcot opens at 9:00 for instance.) Why is this stupid? Because Ei$ner is admitting that he can't fix the problem of light attendance there early in the morning -- which of course for the guest is an absolutely wonderful thing. The reason for the light attendance is, of course, because they jettisoned the whole hub and spoke concept pioneered by Walt. But, I GUARANTEE you would see huge crowds in the WS if they would just add two major E*ticket attractions -- not necessarily coasters of course -- to WS. Two reasons to draw crowds early in the morning past the Spaceship Earth. One on each side of the Lagoon.

Am I right?

[Mark P.]

I'd sure like to know how Disney thinks that this can better my experience at the Magic Kingdom...

I would guess that the "suits" that made this lousy decision would rely on "studies" of the flow of guests through the park,etc., blah-blah-blah.

Prices go up every year, yet they keep cutting corners.

Sounds naive, but I thought that's what separated Disney from all the rest-the heck with the business mumbo jumbo...As stated above, they bought Fox, they can run Adventureland.

Heck, went to Six Flags a couple of months ago, and no roped off areas there...

[JeffJewell]

gcurling...
When they adjusted the closing times v. last year, it seemed in response to anticipated lighter crowds. I could buy that. I didn't like it, but it seemed a responsible reaction to the conditions. ...just to clarify something, the reason I thought the June hour-cuttings were bad had nothing to do with comparing hours to last year. I had waited until the official Disney web site posted hours and parade times for June, then immediately got our itinerary ready and made PS for the meals we wanted. Within five weeks (in stages, too: it didn't happen all at once. They made an MK hours and Spectro cuts within two weeks) of our scheduled arrival, Disney reduced the offical park hours for the three parks, taking several weekly showings of Fantasmic and SpectroMagic with them, completely cancelled one character meal for which we had a confirmed PS, and changed the characters in another for which we held a confirmed PS (and Pooh is _not_ a reasonable substitute if you were promised villains). The cancelled Spectros and Fantasmics were all the later shows, so the once brilliant plan of having PS during the first show to catch the relatively uncrowded second now meant we'd have to, with only a couple weeks left, re-plan and re-schedule the vacation and try to get PS's, or just blow off Spectro and Fantasmic (we blew them off).

Changing hours to meet market conditions I understand completely, yanking rugs out from under vacations I don't. In the cases of the character meals, in particular, the change and cancellation occured during the limited window during which they'd take a PS: if they'd kept them open a lousy few extra weeks, they could have honored any existing PS and not disappointed paying guests.

I don't mean to be arguing with you (incidentally, you were _not_ someone I remember giving me crap back at the time; my overall impression of you based on your posts is that we're pretty much in the same neighborhood, although you are more inclined to express in the positive whereas I express in the negative), just trying to explain that I felt the same way about June as you appear to feel about this closure (and for very similar reasons, if I read you right), but to an even larger degree. It still makes me scratch my head that the more isolated single incident seemed to get more of a rise out of you than the multiple shots, but I can see your reasoning, anyway.

Peter...
You and I have this constant go around when I defend something because I (think) I can understand it, you automatically think I agree with it ...I guess the thing that stood out to me was this time, you jumped right up with "that sucks, even though it won't really affect me," whereas back then, I read your attitude as being basically "hey, Disney isn't legally obligated to live up to those types of agreements." To be honest, what really bothered me is the feeling that the main difference between now and May was who brought up the topic. We do "constant[ly] go around" on some things, and I feel when I bring certain things up, they sometimes get argued with before being given much consideration, based on a perceived prejudice of mine.Valet parking will NEVER hold any Disney magic for me - free or not. Nice? Yes. Make me feel like a big shot? Yes. Magic? No And here's where we'll constantly be going around... ;)

Okay, this is something that doesn't really affect you, but isn't it possible that someone else thinks "feel[ing] like a big shot" is a little dose of Magic during the otherwise mundane parking lot stretch of vacation time? Couldn't the fact that Disney _didn't_ charge for it, making it _unlike_ "every other first class hotel," be a part of that hard to define Magic, for someone?

Not everyone appreciates every detail of Disney Magic to the same degree; every budget cut removes someone's favorite thing in the World. The loss of the nice, if unnecessary, details is a slow erosion of the foundation of Disney Magic, however you care to define that term.And I thought my position on this issue would please you guys. I'm certainly glad you're going to write a letter about the Adventureland closing. I just don't understand why you wouldn't, as long as you were writing, mention that the June hours cuts, and the Valet Parking, and the penchant for spinners, spinners, Uber Alles, were also examples of the same kind of disturbing trend of making questionably valuable budget cuts.

No apologies are necessary, we're all just here talkin'. I still don't really have a grasp on why, in some cases, you will write a letter to Disney about something that doesn't directly affect you, yet in another, argue strongly that something that doesn't directly affect you is simply "Magic? No." You seem to empathize selectively, if you know what I mean.

Jeff

[All Aboard]

JJ, I'll attribute it to "piling on", "straw that broke..." whatever you want to call it. As I stated before, I can no longer make excuses, Disney is making some horrible decisions. In retrospect, the "rug pulling" that happened to you really stinks. I think that you may have been impacted about as much as possible.

A couple of things in this thread really ring true - first, Landbaron's comparison to finally realizing that your wife is cheating on you after playing the denial game for so long. That's aparently what has happened with me. Understand that I love the place as much as any of us. To acquiese and say that there may be something wrong going on is extremely difficult to do. There are still alot of complaints on this board that I viehmently disagree with, however. For one, the cleanliness and maintenance issues are largely unfounded.

Second, as Pirate said, I "understand" why, but I don't neccesarily agree. For some issues I've argued in Disney's favor because I can assuredly relate. For those of you who don't know, I am as sharp a pencil guy as there is. My job description as Finance Special Projects Manager is to identify ways to improve expense efficiency. That's what I do all day long - find ways to hold down expenses. That makes me evil around here, and I know it. That's why I rarely mention it. So, I can identify. You've got folks like me running numbers left and right up there and they've got a boss who loves these types of ideas. I can liken it to the newspaper business. If the publisher's roots are in the newsroom he's less likely to make major cuts, but if he has come up through the business side - look out.

Everyone has their breaking point. I'll admit to wearing rose colored glasses. Part of the reason for me was that while my WDW roots go way back, there was a dark period from 1992 to 1998 that I did not go to WDW. So, when I returned a couple years ago and cranked up the visits, I was back in heaven once again. All was new again and now, enjoying it with my daughter gave me a whole new perspective. To her it's incredible - so to me it is as well. And besides, who wants to look negatively upon a place that brings us so much joy. It's a tough leap to make, so understand why I would fight it so hard.

Hope this helps explain things.

PS - and the subject of this thread doesn't really effect me either. We do Splash & BTTR at 9am. If we finish those before 10, we'll now stroll down through Frontierland instead of heading directly to Pirates. The impact will be minimal. Doesn't matter, this stinks and it stinks badly.

[Planogirl]

I normally stay out of these discussions and just enjoy reading them but I just had to post to this one. (Again! ;) )

I know EXACTLY how that lady felt that Landbaron posted about. Last year I took my young son to see Food Rocks and arrived just as the last show was about to finish. The CM explained that Food Rocks no longer stayed open as late as the other attractions and that we had missed our chance to see it for the day. Then he saw my son's disappointed expression and offered to let us come in to see the end. (I feel for what the CM's have to contend with nowadays.) I thanked him but said that we'd pass. As we walked away my son surprised me by asking me if Disney was going to tear down Food Rocks like they did Horizons. Strangely enough, I don't recall Horizons ever closing early. I also remember thinking at the time that nothing would surprise me any more.

This made me wonder if Disney isn't going to make some pretty bad impressions on the young kids with some of these actions. We are annoyed but Disney pretty much has us in their corner. Whichever car we're in, we're at least on our way to WDW. What about the younger fans who may gladly go elsewhere when they grow up if Disney continues to do these irritating things? I'm not saying that the Magic is by any means gone but it does seem a bit tarnished nowadays and who knows where it will end.

[Peter Pirate]

My letter to Disney with regard to Frontierland contained a large sector on Park hours - telling them I made a mistake in not complaining about this earlier. As I said (or as gcurling said) in retrospect some things look different but thats always the way. As to the Parking, IT IS ok with me if people find this magical or equate the loss of another item to those sharp pencil guys (sorry gcurling), but in my mind, I see logic of this type of move vs. no logic in the Frontierland decision.

Lastly, JJ, you state that "I seem to empathize selectively". Guilty as charged. I have my own agenda, my own history, view and background which form my thought process. I also realize that I, personally, have a very difined but odd system of rationalization. I can't explain it but it's mine! But I try to be a consistent as I can but because of this Frontierland decision, albeit a relatively small issue, I have had somewhat of an epipheny...


:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[JeffJewell]

My job description as Finance Special Projects Manager is to identify ways to improve expense efficiency. That's what I do all day long - find ways to hold down expenses. That makes me evil around here, and I know it. Holding down expenses is a business reality, and, done well, is one of the jobs that truly adds value for both businesses and consumers.

My complaints with Disney are my list of reasons that I think they are _not_ doing this job well, at this point. I believe Disney is "holding down" expenses to the point they are sacrificing the product. Now _that's_ evil. ;)

Jeff

[d-r]

On our last few visits Melissa and I have talked a little about worrying about adventureland - sometimes it seems pretty uncrowded compared to frontierland and tommorowland. We've gotten accostomed to pretty much walking on pirates (high capacity sure). We were hoping for a new e-ticket (fire mountain etc.) to help out adventureland - I guess Aladdin hasn't been cutting it so far. This really sucks for us because we traditionally start in adventureland - there are guests who prefer not to get caught up in the mountain rope drop stampede. So for that this is a real bummer. Dang it disney.

DR

[YoHo]

As Everyone around here probably has figured out, I'm kind of Manic Depressive or BiPolar in my Disney opinion, One minute I'm in Car 4, the Next in Car 1. ITs things like this that make me want to be a fly on the wall in some of these meetings. You all heard it in Safari Steve's voice, he's sounded bummed to me about the situaton. Where's the logic? Or is Orlando tourism doing so bad this year, that they are lost as to what to do. The reason I suggest that, is because It would seem to me that the decision to close Adventureland early is made at the MK level and as such, based on what we've heard about the various people at that level, these are not Eisner clones. These are executives that still think like CMs (based on anecdotal evedince. At least right now today they seem to be. Clearly that was not the case when Landbaron had his confrontation.

The other thing I don't understand is what the peak attendence times in Orlando are. While logic dictates that Summer is one. My latest look at rates shows most of June and August at off peak rates suggesting that the summer crunch isn't what it was. I agree that this is NOT the right way to handle what's happening, but my concern is, What is really happening. It seems like Disney is imploding before our eyes.

[madmouse]

Well thats it!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have just sent a very long email to Mr Eisner,not that it will do much good,but i got it off my chest anyway.

[gary]

For the rest of the country, our travel agents say avoid August - Hurricane season. (Yes, yes, the entire summer is hurricane season, but all the stats point to late summer as the time your vacation may really get hammered by a storm). Probably the daily, average weather patterns, too. The air is chewable, but tender, in June and July. August? I can only imagine.

I thought that the June "peak season" numbers pretty much coincided with the end of school - peak season starts about the 3rd week of June, which is when many schools get out.

Gary

P.S. - Back on topic - if Disney keeps up present practice of limited hours for various attractions, they'd be well served by making a "bar schedule" - i.e., a bar graph that lists the attractions (vertical axis) and shows a bar for the times they're open (horizontal axis). Wouldn't be a bad service to provide here, if they don't do it. At least the kiddies won't show up at the end of the last show of the day on the last day of their visit.

And a new, unique (i.e., non-spinner, but let's not get into that) attraction in adventureland to draw in the crowds might be helpful. I was just at Disneyland this past weekend (different park, same story), and even though DCA isn't completely up to Disney standers (IMHO, parts are, parts aren't, but I noticed "tuning" and improvement here and there), the kids (12-21) wanted to do DCA first, because it was ALL NEW. Did about 1/2 and 1/2, timewise (and they liked the new park, but like the old one better).

[DVC-Landbaron]

YoHo writes:The reason I suggest that, is because It would seem to me that the decision to close Adventureland early is made at the MK level and as such, based on what we've heard about the various people at that level, these are not Eisner clones. These are executives that still think like CMs Nah! Totally disagree. These people know how to play the game enough to rise through the ranks of an Ei$ner dominated corporation. As evidenced by their resume, these people know on which side their bread is buttered. They know that they have to show an increase in profits AND a decrease in spending or the top mouse will be disappointed. So they do what they have to do.

It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with tourism numbers or guest satisfaction. It all boils down to numbers. And more importantly, the appearance, for the boss's sake, that they are doing all they can to make a buck. They can look him square in the eye and say they have cut to the bone and even came away with a few chips!!

What is really sad though is that they think that they can get away with it! In the short term at least. But I really think that they are mortgaging their future, for a few cents in the short term.

Case in point: That lady with the daughter who just missed the last Food Rocks show. She and her daughter walked away dejected and more than a little peeved. But when I suggested that she seek out guest relations, she looked at me as though I had grown a third eye and said, "Why bother!" So Disney loses a potential long term customer, without the proper feedback as to the cause. They saved their ten dollars (or even hundreds, the amount doesn't matter) in the short term, by the early closing, but lost untold thousands by disappointing a guest. Just her family alone (in future years) and the positive word of mouth (many other potential guests) should DEMAND that this policy be changed.

But I find that Disney's recent business philosophy even more short term oriented than government work!!! The all important 'Quarterly' is the only thing that matters. Five years IS long term, no consideration given that for many guests, five years IS the next trip to Disney!! (Let's face it gang, we are a bit of an anomaly!) So what type of a taste did they leave in this young mother's mouth? When she's saved enough pennies to do another big trip (maybe three to seven years from now) who's going to get the money? WDW? Or perhaps she'll take the trip to Yellowstone and forget those 'rip-off' amusement parks! How does that figure into their extensive surveys? Do they have any idea at all, that my own sister-in-law, who can only afford Disney every five years or so, has decided, based on their trip four years ago, that it's a bit too much money and a bit to aggravating to go again. They talked themselves out of next year, saying that perhaps another three or four years down the road….

Yet they continue their myopic, shot term business practices, and those executives who you think so highly of receive an 'attaboy' from Ei$ner in their file folder and their next promotion is only a matter of time.
While logic dictates that Summer is one. My latest look at rates shows most of June and August at off peak rates suggesting that the summer crunchDon't equate hotel bookings (on property at least) to how crowded the parks are!
It seems like Disney is imploding before our eyes.Welcome to my nightmare!!! ;)

[YoHo]

Landbaron, My comment on the Execs was based on the one (I don't remember HER name) Walking around personally picking up trash and moving her office to Mainstreet. AND the fact that I THINK her office, or the one above her personally called back everyone who had written or called that office with complaint or comment and acknowledged it (I know someone who called simply to say that TTA (Wedway) was the best rid ein the park and got a responce from that office. Similar stories of complaints being responded to abounded a couple weeks ago in what seemed like WDW callback day.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I sent off my email but then realized that I have not seen a first hand confirmation of reduced hours....oops, went against my own philosophy!Ahhhh! My dear Scoop!! Take heart!! If they DON'T do it, you and your e-mail can be credited for saving them from making one of the most stupidest moves ever!

Congratulations!! Should I hold the car door open for you? ;)

[babar]

I just wanted to reply to Safari Steve about how he wished people were waiting for Pirates instead of Splash Mountain in the morning. That line made me sad!!

We are always there waiting to go on Pirates the first thing, and then the Jungle Cruise.:)
Wouldn't have it any other way!! (well, now we have to!)

[Safari Steve]

1- Eisner is not in charge of things like this (even though I've said it many times before)
2- There are many people in upper management/exec positions at WDW who not only are not "Eisner clones", but don't care for Mr. E in the least.
3- While I still can neither confirm nor deny this "official confirmation" everyone I've spoken to from work has been totally baffled when asked. (Although I'm used to getting the "What did you just ask me?" face.)

[YoHo]

Here's to hopping they stay baffled.

[DisneyKidds]

This sucks! Thanks for the WDW email address - I just sent an email. If we all spoke together it might....... forget it, they won't change. But at least I feel better having said something to them.

[Bob O]

I read a article on another site where a portifolio management group with a stake a in the disney company wants shareholders to vote on a proposal that would require disney to make public settlements of lawsuits and theme park injuries. Maybe somebody more computer literate than me could post a link. It was in the Los Angeles dailynews and i think this is the address-www.dailynewslosangeles.com/business/articles/0801/30/biz02.asp or maybe just dailynews.com. What do you think about this proposal??? Sorry meant to have a new topic, wrongly posted!!

[JohnGalt]

Man I hate this.....

And I feel so powerless - One of the real problems is that we who participate in a discussion group such as this are by definition, Disney fans! The sad truth is that most of us, will probably continue patronizing WDW with our hard earned cash!

The powers that be know this. And so, they have asked themselves, what can we take away that will save us money, but probably in the long run, won't cost us many customers? How about free valet parking for resort guests at the premium resorts? How about roping off a land or two, and reducing hours of operation on rides?

Until you and I and masses of people have the cajones to voice our objection with our DOLLARS, they will continue to reduce the value of the entertainment recevied. But when does that straw break the camel's back??

For my family and I it occurs now. We have been 4 times in 7 years. But now, we will spend our considerable Disney vacation budget at some other venue.

I have never complained about ticket prices or food prices or any of the other considerable Disney expenses. I have always considered the value received for the dollar spent to be quite high. But when they start chipping away at the services that they have provided in the past and ticket prices continue to escalate, I find I can no longer enjoy a vacation there. I will spend too much time mourning for the way it used to be......the good ol' days as it were.

I know it's hard for us hard core fans to consider, but here are other entertainment alternatives, even of the theme park variety. It may take time, but in the long run, the theme park that provides the best bang for the buck will attract the average Joe's vacation dollars. I'm ready to try something else. Disney is just a little to proud of their product right now, and they are taking me for granted.

Goodbye for now Disney.

JohnGalt

[ees]

I agree we paid for it give it to us... Open Adventureland, Im not getting a deal on my ticket prices... am I ?

[gary]

The sad truth is that most of us, will probably continue patronizing WDW with our hard earned cash
Money talks. If you feel that they're not keeping their eye on the ball, make a statement with your $$$ and do something new. Next year will be the first time in 7 years that I won't be spending my summer vacation $$$ at WDW.

Gary

[one_cat]

I just read an article in Mouseplanet where they retracted their earlier statement about later openings at Adventureland. http://www.mouseplanet.com/david/wdwcust1.html

[ees]

Here is the response to my email about cut hours of adventureland, what do you guys think?

Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for your most recent correspondence.

You will be happy to know that the Adventureland section of the Magic Kingdom
maintains the same operating hours as the rest of the park.

If you have questions or need further assistance, feel free to contact us.

Please include your full name, E-Mail address, and reservation number if
applicable on all correspondence, and allow up to 72 hours for response to
E-Mail.

Thank you - and have a DISNEY day!

Sincerely,

Betsy Mayer

Online Guest Service
WALT DISNEY WORLD
P.O. Box 10100
Lake Buena Vista FL 32830-0100



Original Message Follows:
-------------------------

Please oh please open adventureland at the same time the rest of the park
opens.. My life savings to bring my family to your business.. we want it were
paying for it ....
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