Why Treat AP Holder Worse than non-AP Holders?

[kath1210]

I don't have an AP, but I don't understand the new AP plan. If I can make several reservations and put down a refundable deposit, then why not let AP holders do the same? Is Disney trying to discourage AP sales, or do they just want to discourage AP discounts? If it's the latter, then they can just announce that they'll be limiting AP discounts, and AP buyers can make their decisions from there. I just don't get this...

[DebbieB]

Supposidly, this is a separate plan for AP Holders, not the only way to get an AP rate. If you are willing to put down a non-refundable deposit, you will be guaranteed the best possible rate. If you don't want to do that, then you can wait to see if AP rates come out through the current channels.

[missypie]

The non-refundable deposit is my one huge problem with the new program. I can understand that if they can sell out their rooms at rack rate, they have no need to offer any discounts at all. But to make one group put down a non-refundable deposit when no one else has to is unreasonable.

[lllovell]

Do you call your airline and gripe when they make you check the little box (or listen to the paragraph from a person) saying you understand your "reduced rate" ticket is non-refundable or non-transferrable?

Disney doesn't treat me worse than a non-AP holder. I get a whole book full of discounts and other benefits that make my experience at WDW even more wonderful. If it includes discount rates on a hotel room - whoopie for me! If it doesn't, I still get huge discounts like 25% off shows and 10% off lots of restaurants or the ability to buy the DDE for $50 and then get 20% of food and alcohol at TONS of restaurants.

I love my AP. I would never give it up unless it became financially unreasonable for my family to get them. We get back way more value than the $$$ I outlay for them.

But, what is that saying...mileage may vary with user...

[Lewisc]

Do you call your airline and gripe when they make you check the little box (or listen to the paragraph from a person) saying you understand your "reduced rate" ticket is non-refundable or non-transferrable?


The airline is giving us a greatly reduced fare, the discounted fares we book are usually well under half the fully refundable fare.

Disney is booking us at full rack rate, even higher than available AAA rates. Of course we have cause to gripe and complain. I won't even think about booking under these terms. Disney is adding a change fee and charging a non-refundable deposit but is giving us nothing in return. Unless it changes we're actually booking at a higher rate in exchange for inferior terms but the potential of a future discount.

[lllovell]

The airline is giving us a greatly reduced fare, the discounted fares we book are usually well under half the fully refundable fare.

Disney is booking us at full rack rate, even higher than available AAA rates. Of course we have cause to gripe and complain. I won't even think about booking under these terms. Disney is adding a change fee and charging a non-refundable deposit but is giving us nothing in return. Unless it changes we're actually booking at a higher rate in exchange for inferior terms but the potential of a future discount.

Do you really think this is how this system is going to play out?

Disney execs woke up one morning and said "lets run off all the people that are dying for an AP discount by locking them into rates and screwing them every chance we get". Of course not. This system is designed to say "you will get the best rates, so book now and stop worrying".

I do feel if your family cannot afford to go to Disney EXCEPT with an AP discounted room, however, you did find a way to afford the AP to begin with so I suspect things aren't as tough as some would like people to believe.

If you are that family, book a package deal. If you have to travel in the worst peak times when the package deals are not available, chances are you won't swing a "great" AP discount either.

I am not saying the current system doesn't need to be tweeked (in some areas a lot), I am simply saying that the non-refundable part (for one night only - not your whole trip) is not that different from any other programs out there.

[Lewisc]

I see you're no longer trying to defend your airline comparison. Airlines give us deeply discounted fares in exchange for restrictions.

I have no idea what Disney is planning. My resort decision depends on the availability of discounts. I certainly have no intention of booking a reservation with penalties without knowing what my rate will be. Will it be rack rate? A AAA type of rate? The current AP discount, around $75/night? The old AP discount, around 45% off rack? Maybe at 45% off I'd book LV POLY and at $75 off rack I'd book WL. At rack rate I'd probably look for an offsite resort. I guess some guests want a particular resort and room type and don't care what it costs. Those guests might like this new system.

Disney isn't saying we'll get the best rates. They've made it clear they don't have to match a variety of discounted rates even including AAA. Many of the recent discounts have been PIN targeted or package discounts.

I don't know of ANY PROGRAM that charges the guest a one night non-refundable deposit on a RACK RATE reservation. Would you care to share a few examples?




Do you really think this is how this system is going to play out?

Disney execs woke up one morning and said "lets run off all the people that are dying for an AP discount by locking them into rates and screwing them every chance we get". Of course not. This system is designed to say "you will get the best rates, so book now and stop worrying".

I do feel if your family cannot afford to go to Disney EXCEPT with an AP discounted room, however, you did find a way to afford the AP to begin with so I suspect things aren't as tough as some would like people to believe.

If you are that family, book a package deal. If you have to travel in the worst peak times when the package deals are not available, chances are you won't swing a "great" AP discount either.

I am not saying the current system doesn't need to be tweeked (in some areas a lot), I am simply saying that the non-refundable part (for one night only - not your whole trip) is not that different from any other programs out there.

[DebbieB]

The non-refundable deposit is my one huge problem with the new program. I can understand that if they can sell out their rooms at rack rate, they have no need to offer any discounts at all. But to make one group put down a non-refundable deposit when no one else has to is unreasonable.

They are not making one group put down a non-refundable deposit. If you are an AP Holder and want to use this new program, you put down the non-refundable deposit. If you are an AP Holder and want to wait for the regular AP rates to come out, you can do that and if they come out you can put down a refundable deposit. An AP Holder has either option.

[lllovell]

I see you're no longer trying to defend your airline comparison. Airlines give us deeply discounted fares in exchange for restrictions.

I have no idea what Disney is planning. My resort decision depends on the availability of discounts. I certainly have no intention of booking a reservation with penalties without knowing what my rate will be. Will it be rack rate? A AAA type of rate? The current AP discount, around $75/night? The old AP discount, around 45% off rack? Maybe at 45% off I'd book LV POLY and at $75 off rack I'd book WL. At rack rate I'd probably look for an offsite resort. I guess some guests want a particular resort and room type and don't care what it costs. Those guests might like this new system.

Disney isn't saying we'll get the best rates. They've made it clear they don't have to match a variety of discounted rates even including AAA. Many of the recent discounts have been PIN targeted or package discounts.

I don't know of ANY PROGRAM that charges the guest a one night non-refundable deposit on a RACK RATE reservation. Would you care to share a few examples?


I am not defending anything lol If you don't want to stay, it really doesn't effect my family one way or the other. I would hope most people in the world get what they want though.

You are not happy with this program, then don't use it. All AP reservations will now require a non-refundable deposit. If you are willing to wait for the SAME RATE you would get if you reserved NOW and maybe there will be a room or two left, I think sometimes you will get it sometimes you won't. Either way you will be charged one night's stay non-refundable (at least that is what I am reading so far - which is changing hour to hour). No one with an AP will get a cheaper rate than you only people that wait might not get a room at all.

You are frustrated at Disney about a program that really has not even begun to be implemented. Same situation happened with Magic Your Way and any other new "programs" that are announced. I don't feel the need to "defend" much here, so good luck to you being off-site or finding another place to vaction. I love WDW because there is something there for everyone, on or off-site!

[Sammie]

Even though right now the discounted rates are not loaded into the system, this plan guarantees the lowest possible rate, the BEST discount available to anyone. Why is that so hard for some to understand. It will be better than what you can book without the restrictions.

Yes there are restrictions, but if the discounts are worth the restrictions then it will be worth it. If the discount is not worth the restrictions then the program will fail. But why doom it to failure and give Disney heck for trying something new, even before we know how it is going to work.

I agree that right now we don't know what the discount will be. For some it might not be enough to justify the restrictions. But regardless it will be for some; as it will be the BEST discount available at the time they want to go.

I see no where that Disney is mistreating AP holders. With this plan they are going to get the best discounts without even have to call back and check on them, or the possiblity of getting shut out of any discount at all by someone that did not even buy a pass.

As I stated many times in other threads, this program is not going to appeal to the person who is looking to upgrade by getting a discount. This program is going to "greatly" appeal to the person who is willing and can pay rack rate and is going to be guaranteed that if any discounts are offered they will get the best.

What many DISers are not seeing is, many, many people are comfortable paying rack rate, if Disney will guarantee that after the book if any discounts are made available they get them first and they get the best.

What is probably going to happen is unless you use this program or AAA you are not going to see many getting any discounts in the future.

People have to quit comparing this program to the days of multiple and plentiful discounts due to the travel slump, I think those days are over.

This also stems the abuse called by those booking discounts with an AP, those booking multiple rooms and last minute cancellations and those that call, call, call, to check on discounts trying up the phones. All these have cost Disney money.

[Anewman]

Until this plays out how does ANYone think Disney is treating AP holders worse?

It could turn out that they REWARD big time, the ap holders that CHOOSE to put down a deposit up front. And it could turn out that they get the same AP rate everyone else gets, B4 those rooms sell out.

But AP holders are not FORCED to use the new program, so how is this "WORSE"?
Since when is having an extra option a bad thing?

[NCombs]

I have no idea what Disney is planning. My resort decision depends on the availability of discounts. I certainly have no intention of booking a reservation with penalties without knowing what my rate will be. Will it be rack rate? A AAA type of rate? The current AP discount, around $75/night? The old AP discount, around 45% off rack? Maybe at 45% off I'd book LV POLY and at $75 off rack I'd book WL. At rack rate I'd probably look for an offsite resort. I guess some guests want a particular resort and room type and don't care what it costs. Those guests might like this new system.

Disney isn't saying we'll get the best rates. They've made it clear they don't have to match a variety of discounted rates even including AAA. Many of the recent discounts have been PIN targeted or package discounts.

I don't know of ANY PROGRAM that charges the guest a one night non-refundable deposit on a RACK RATE reservation. Would you care to share a few examples?

Who needs to share examples? It doesn't matter if anyone else does it or not.

If your resort decision depends on the availability of discounts, then this plan probably isn't for you. That doesn't mean others won't use it.

People are getting upset without giving the program a chance to even get started.

[MagicKingdom05]

Some people just don't like change. I think that some people don't like the idea of this because those who book through this promotion supposedly will get first dibs on the discounts and maybe higher discounts than those who book by phone. I love the idea of being able to book my resort online, seeing for myself what's available and not have to worry about missing out on the first round of discounts because it will be added automatically.

[MagicKingdom05]

lllovell,

We heard alot of the same things when MYW was first released, but as people have found out, it's a pretty good program. Obviously not all parts of MYW works with everybody, just like the new best rate promotion won't work for everyone.

Just like with MYW, it took time for people to understand it and the same is needed for the best rate promotion.

[NCombs]

Some people just don't like change. I think that some people don't like the idea of this because those who book through this promotion supposedly will get first dibs on the discounts and maybe higher discounts than those who book by phone. I love the idea of being able to book my resort online, seeing for myself what's available and not have to worry about missing out on the first round of discounts because it will be added automatically.


See-perfect example. It looks like it will be a good thing for you. That's great. For me, no, I don't think it would work. But, I'm certainly not upset it is being implemented.

This is an example of information getting out so early on the internet, it must really be a hassle for Disney. They haven't even gotten a chance to get things rolling and I'm sure they have hundreds of emails from people already saying how terrible the plan is and how upset they are. I best most don't even understand everything about the program and if it actually replaces anything or is just an additional option.

[gullyf]

lllovell,

We heard alot of the same things when MYW was first released, but as people have found out, it's a pretty good program. Obviously not all parts of MYW works with everybody, just like the new best rate promotion won't work for everyone.

Just like with MYW, it took time for people to understand it and the same is needed for the best rate promotion.

And now we know how they intend to pay for MYW... so instead paying a limo service $100 for transportation, you get it "free", just for paying rack rate at the hotel.. great deal: an additional $18 to $75 per night (read: $750 over 10 days) to save $100....

[MagicKingdom05]

NCombs,

Who knows if this is really going to work out for me or not. Until this actually gets going, nobody really knows.

I agree that it's way to early to say this is going to be a bad program when not all the information on it has been released yet.

[lllovell]

And now we know how they intend to pay for MYW... so instead paying a limo service $100 for transportation, you get it "free", just for paying rack rate at the hotel.. great deal: an additional $18 to $75 per night (read: $750 over 10 days) to save $100....

I don't follow you. Sorry - can you try that again?

I think you are talking about M.E., which is available to everyone staying onsite for free and doesn't have anything to do with the particular room or package you are staying on.

Am I missing something?

[seashoreCM]

According to what Disney advertised...

If you booked using the new AP reservation plan, you get the "AP rate" automatically if an AP rate is announced later for your dates.

There is still a question, suppose that one or more nights during your stay were blacked out for a discount. Would you get the AP rate for the remaining nights?

(THe black out question does not apply if even one room were offered at a discount rate for a given night, your rate would be price matched.)

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

[MagicKingdom05]

lllovell,

I was wondering about that as well. Everyone is jumping to conclusions before this promotion has a chance to get going.

[PamNC]

an airline ticket without knowing how much it would end up costing you? I'm uncomfortable with this plan for many reasons, but one major reason is I need to know what I'm paying before I book. I'm not one of the over zealous types who make 2 or 2 different reservations, then let it play out and see what discounts are offered, then cancel. We always waited to see what the discounts were, then we book. I KNEW this would eventually become a problem with so many people locking up the rooms and calling 2 or 3 times a week, heck...2 or 3 times a day, checking on discounts. But, hey, Disney is the one who has been elusive about the discounts...so it's their fault, not the over zealous folks. The answer is to offer a straight % discount for AP holders, even if they have to make it less of a discount. Then, there would be no guessing, no wondering and folks that CAN'T book that far in advance wouldn't be punished.

As long as it's an "option" I guess I'm okay with it. But, mark my words, if this test does well...it'll become the one and only way for us to book. Hence, I will consider not renewing my AP and in turn I won't be visiting 2 or 3 times a year. So, Disney will be losing lots of money from me. And many others I suspect.

PamNC

[NCombs]

NCombs,

Who knows if this is really going to work out for me or not. Until this actually gets going, nobody really knows.

I agree that it's way to early to say this is going to be a bad program when not all the information on it has been released yet.

You're right-who knows-but I wish people would give it a chance first. I hope it works out for you, though. If so, keep us posted.

[Sammie]

See-perfect example. It looks like it will be a good thing for you. That's great. For me, no, I don't think it would work. But, I'm certainly not upset it is being implemented.

This is an example of information getting out so early on the internet, it must really be a hassle for Disney. They haven't even gotten a chance to get things rolling and I'm sure they have hundreds of emails from people already saying how terrible the plan is and how upset they are. I best most don't even understand everything about the program and if it actually replaces anything or is just an additional option.

You are so right, but no need to worry. Disney is quite used to the "sky is falling mentality" of some Internet users. Or even worse those that think Disney is a charity instead of business in business to make money.

[DebbieB]

See-perfect example. It looks like it will be a good thing for you. That's great. For me, no, I don't think it would work. But, I'm certainly not upset it is being implemented.

This is an example of information getting out so early on the internet, it must really be a hassle for Disney. They haven't even gotten a chance to get things rolling and I'm sure they have hundreds of emails from people already saying how terrible the plan is and how upset they are. I best most don't even understand everything about the program and if it actually replaces anything or is just an additional option.

And why is that? Because Disney did not communicate that information. They posted this program on the passholder website but did not say anywhere that traditional AP rates may still be available. It wasn't an "internet leak", they posted this program on their website on Friday, then left the weekend for everyone to clamor for information, assuming the worst. They do a bad job of communicating. It seems like anytime they announce something new, they don't have their cm's trained on it, they don't have a package of information to travel agents, there is just mass confusion.

[Sammie]

And why is that? Because Disney did not communicate that information. They posted this program on the passholder website but did not say anywhere that traditional AP rates may still be available. It wasn't an "internet leak", they posted this program on their website on Friday, then left the weekend for everyone to clamor for information, assuming the worst. They do a bad job of communicating. It seems like anytime they announce something new, they don't have their cm's trained on it, they don't have a package of information to travel agents, there is just mass confusion.

It is only mass confusion to active Interet forums users. The rest of the world does not get up in arms about this kind of stuff. I am not saying anyone here does not have a right to be upset. Everyone has a right to be upset about anything that bothers them. I just do not see why some feel Disney owes them the type of discounts that have been offered in the past.

Sometimes the problem is the Internet user knows more about the situation then the person selling it. This happens at Disney alot. Disney management knows this. But in a company with 55,000 workers, everything does not always run smoothly. Anyone that works for a mega company will understand that. There is always a weak link. Sometimes it just takes time for problems to happen before they can be solved.

Then compound the problem with Internet or computer problems along with the human ones and you can see what they are dealing with.

This program is not for everyone wanting to visit Disney. It was not intended to be for everyone. It is not even for every AP holder. It is certainly not for the person who can not plan ahead or does not have a fixed amount they are going to spend on a particular room.

[DebbieB]

They should anticipate how it will come out on the internet, it's a major group of their customers. I'm not saying that they owe any discounts at all. They should know that there would be resistence to the 120 day rule and the non-refundable. Fine, if that's what they want to do. But they shouldn't have travel agents or guests in contact with their "CRO sources" in order to find out the whole story. They should have announced the "whole story" in the first place so there would not be confusion. I guess it's because I also work for a "mega company" as a trainer (not as big as Disney but more than half) and find Disney's communciation methods and training lacking. You don't throw out a new program like this without making sure everyone who is in contact with the public is fully trained.

[Sammie]

They should anticipate how it will come out on the internet, it's a major group of their customers. I'm not saying that they owe any discounts at all. They should know that there would be resistence to the 120 day rule and the non-refundable. Fine, if that's what they want to do. But they shouldn't have travel agents or guests in contact with their "CRO sources" in order to find out the whole story. They should have announced the "whole story" in the first place so there would not be confusion. I guess it's because I also work for a "mega company" as a trainer (not as big as Disney but more than half) and find Disney's communciation methods and training lacking. You don't throw out a new program like this without making sure everyone who is in contact with the public is fully trained.

I completely agree. But as a trainer you will find this amusing. I have a friend in managment at Disney that says you can train and train and test and test and it seems that they are ready to go and the front line is confident. And you can send them out to the masses and the Internet savvy will rip them to shreads, and they fall apart and can't remember a single thing they learned in training class. ;)

[MagicKingdom05]

PamNC,

You know going in that the most you will pay for the room per night is the rack rate, so it's not like you won't have a clue what your rate will be until you check in. For example if your staying at Poly and the per night rack rate is $320 then you know that you won't be paying anymore than that.

[srfrgrl07]

And now we know how they intend to pay for MYW... so instead paying a limo service $100 for transportation, you get it "free", just for paying rack rate at the hotel.. great deal: an additional $18 to $75 per night (read: $750 over 10 days) to save $100....

people still receive the discounts on their rooms and get ME for free...so that reasoning is not logical. not to mention limo service typically costs more than $100. and for those that drive to orlando, they are not spending any more money than they used to on transportation, other than the price of gas which disney has no control over anyways. there are many families who are paying less than they did for a wdw vacation than they did say 3 or 4 years ago becasue of myw, and if they are traveling at the right time also getting free dining, so they are spending less!

[gullyf]

people still receive the discounts on their rooms and get ME for free...so that reasoning is not logical. not to mention limo service typically costs more than $100. and for those that drive to orlando, they are not spending any more money than they used to on transportation, other than the price of gas which disney has no control over anyways. there are many families who are paying less than they did for a wdw vacation than they did say 3 or 4 years ago becasue of myw, and if they are traveling at the right time also getting free dining, so they are spending less!
The reasoning is quite logical. Yes there are still discounts available, but they are going to be fewer and smaller than in the past. As far as the cost of a limo goes, I believe we took one for $85 last year. We alos had to schedule a van for one trip, and that was only $120 IIRC. 'Free Dining' is just a way to slowly move away from room discounts.. don't expect it to last. Basically, this is all about getting back to 'rack rates' only, in a manner that causes the least upset. They are trying to 'wean' people off room discounts gradually, and at the same time reduce the load on the call centers. The downside to all this is they will lose many of us that have AP's who aren't local and used to make multiple trips each year just because airfare and hotel rates coincided to make a quick trip possible without spending a fortune. They have also stated publicly that they want to move more people towards DVC, which certainly is good for them (lesee, for each room, I potentially get $14000 (+/-) + $700 (+/-) annual maintenance fees, potentially from each of 50 (+/-) people, and I still own the thing and greatly reduced housekeeping costs). I just can't believe how many people think that is a good deal, but to each his own and that discussion belongs elsewhere.
What it all boils down to is that they will lose many AP holders, and many of us will no longer make rather impromptu visits. I for one was considering going for a second time this year in early Dec, but pretty much have shelved that. Will I still venture down for a family vacation? I am sure, but I can see it being 5 years down the road instead of two or three times a year. Will I pay full prices? Maybe.. or maybe I will stay offsite, or I'll have built on property I have in FL and just go for a day or two. Anyway you look at it, they will lose some of my $, which I am sure doesn't concern them as they will get a higher margin from someone else- maybe.

[mickeyluv]

The non-refundable deposit is my one huge problem with the new program. I can understand that if they can sell out their rooms at rack rate, they have no need to offer any discounts at all. But to make one group put down a non-refundable deposit when no one else has to is unreasonable.


I totally agree with this statement. The only part that really gets me with this recent plan that they have come out with is the non-refundable deposit!! I'll never use this system as we can't plan 120 days out due to our work schedules and I'm not about to lose money on a deposit!!!!

[BostonRob]

The reasoning is quite logical. Yes there are still discounts available, but they are going to be fewer and smaller than in the past. . . Basically, this is all about getting back to 'rack rates' only, in a manner that causes the least upset. They are trying to 'wean' people off room discounts gradually

This is probably all true. But if tourism is picking up again, who can blame them? Disney will set their prices at whatever the market will bear. If they have trouble selling rooms, the discounts will come back - if there's no vacancy, then we've probably seen the end of discounts.

Similarly, if nobody renews their AP's you may see Disney revert back to the old AP discount system. Then again, if Disney continues to fill its parks and sell its rooms, even in the absence of their old AP customers, then the AP program may dry up entirely. Why should disney care if its parks are filled with people who come once a month or with people who come once every 3 years, as long as the parks are full?

[gullyf]

I don't follow you. Sorry - can you try that again?

I think you are talking about M.E., which is available to everyone staying onsite for free and doesn't have anything to do with the particular room or package you are staying on.

Am I missing something?
Apologies.. got my acronyms mixed :eek: ! I did indeed mean ME... and you have to remember that it is a trial program as well... where it goes in the future is not dependent on what it is today... look at the direction and the trend (of these Disney programs and corporate trends in general)

[lllovell]

Apologies.. got my acronyms mixed :eek: ! I did indeed mean ME... and you have to remember that it is a trial program as well... where it goes in the future is not dependent on what it is today... look at the direction and the trend (of these Disney programs and corporate trends in general)

That is what I figured :) lol too many acronyms for me sometimes too.

I agree about M.E. I figure one of two things is going to happen here. It is going to be wildly popular and the restaurants are going to make a killing and park admissions will stay very high and they will decide its worth the cost and continue to make it free (or minimal cost) to try to keep people onsite. OR - they are getting us all spoiled and 18 months from now, they will raise the price back to the typical Mears price and that will be that.

I honestly suspect the first will happen. I think that anything they can do to get us there and keep us there is the #1 goal and from what I can see trying to get a ressie (PS or AR or whatever they are called these days) at a park restaurant is getting harder and harder according to my experience and the chatting on the restaurant board.

This goes back to my arguement about AP holders. If we are the bread and butter (as I have always heard...though - who really knows), they won't allow this new program to run us off. I do agree that a full room is a full room, but I also KNOW that AP holders are the ones making multiple trips vs. a family that takes 1 trip every 5 years. Demand will obviously dictate future discounts, but I think there will always be a level of "discount" for AP holders, we might just have to move quicker to get them. (in the past, I have gotten AP rates at the last minute often for short weekend trips - I dont see that happening anymore).

[gullyf]

I agree about M.E. I figure one of two things is going to happen here. It is going to be wildly popular and the restaurants are going to make a killing and park admissions will stay very high and they will decide its worth the cost and continue to make it free (or minimal cost) to try to keep people onsite. OR - they are getting us all spoiled and 18 months from now, they will raise the price back to the typical Mears price and that will be that.

I honestly suspect the first will happen. I think that anything they can do to get us there and keep us there is the #1 goal and from what I can see trying to get a ressie (PS or AR or whatever they are called these days) at a park restaurant is getting harder and harder according to my experience and the chatting on the restaurant board.

I too suspect that ME will continue as a "value added" perk, costing you nothing. The trade-off will be the move back to 'rack rates' and a drastic reduction in both the discount and room availability. Everything points to "weaning' people off room discounts. The 'free dining' promotion could almost be considered an epiphany to that end.

This goes back to my arguement about AP holders. If we are the bread and butter (as I have always heard...though - who really knows), they won't allow this new program to run us off. I do agree that a full room is a full room, but I also KNOW that AP holders are the ones making multiple trips vs. a family that takes 1 trip every 5 years. Demand will obviously dictate future discounts, but I think there will always be a level of "discount" for AP holders, we might just have to move quicker to get them. (in the past, I have gotten AP rates at the last minute often for short weekend trips - I dont see that happening anymore).
I really wish there were some #'s available as far as annual passholders go. It would be interesting to know what % of park population uses an annual pass on the average. I'm not so sure, especially with these changes, that the current management values them so highly. Mind you, I can understand that perhaps abuse patterns led to this response. What I don't understand is that there have to be many other ways to both curb the abuses and limit the number/amount of discounts without what amount to additional fees and penalties from what are certainly your most frequent visitors. That just seems to follow the banking/credit cards, airlines, and others in the move toward fees and penalties as profit generators. No one wants to provide extra services or attract new customers, so lets get all we can out of our existing customer base. Treat them poorly, but make it look like their fault.

As for my family, I am contemplating whether it will be worth renewing our AP's given these changes. We were considering a Dec trip if rates were good: we'll probably just go somewhere here in the Northeast instead.

[lllovell]

I really wish there were some #'s available as far as annual passholders go. It would be interesting to know what % of park population uses an annual pass on the average. I'm not so sure, especially with these changes, that the current management values them so highly. Mind you, I can understand that perhaps abuse patterns led to this response. What I don't understand is that there have to be many other ways to both curb the abuses and limit the number/amount of discounts without what amount to additional fees and penalties from what are certainly your most frequent visitors. That just seems to follow the banking/credit cards, airlines, and others in the move toward fees and penalties as profit generators. No one wants to provide extra services or attract new customers, so lets get all we can out of our existing customer base. Treat them poorly, but make it look like their fault.

As for my family, I am contemplating whether it will be worth renewing our AP's given these changes. We were considering a Dec trip if rates were good: we'll probably just go somewhere here in the Northeast instead.


I agree - I wish there were public numbers available as well. I also don't really know if they are giving more discounts (like DDE and 25% off shows) as a way of replacing room discounts, but I do see this as a way for them to better determine their needs to provide discounts at all. In that instance, I do agree with you. I think that they will provide a set number of discounts per 90 day period (at probably 130 days out) and see how many :Best Rate: customers have signed up for them and how many rooms are left at 70 days out and then decide if they want to give an additional number of rooms at the same AP rate or a lower one. It is simply a tool IMO to fill the most rooms. I do think there was TERRIBLE abuse of people making multiple reservations and not releasing them until 10-15 days out (making them harder to book for WDW). I also agree that some changes in the current system might have worked better at fixing the old system, but I don't think this is a fix so much as a differernt direction.

Everyone is doing this now - the whole "book early" and save the most. Granted until the dropped below rack rates, they weren't doing it. Also, once again, sure seems like they don't know what is going on over there (especially since the system has apparently been down for long periods today where they are making changes I think). All of it is poor planning on Disney's part.

I hope they get the whole thing ironed out, the booking cycle through the middle of December goes through and the bugs are all gone and then we can make some real judgements about how its going to work or not work. We will keep our APs because even if we stay off-site, I know my family will make multiple trips to WDW next year.

[BostonRob]

I really wish there were some #'s available as far as annual passholders go. It would be interesting to know what % of park population uses an annual pass on the average. I'm not so sure, especially with these changes, that the current management values them so highly.

I'm curious too. Personally (and this is just conjecture) I think the number is much lower than people here seem to think. I'd guess that annual passholders account for 5% or less of WDW's business.

[lllovell]

I'm curious too. Personally (and this is just conjecture) I think the number is much lower than people here seem to think. I'd guess that annual passholders account for 5% or less of WDW's business.

Maybe - but there HAS to be a direct link between how much AP holders spend versus a regular guest or it makes no sense why you would hang onto 5% of your revenues and continue to attempt things like the new DVC AP discount and DDE and 25% off shows (along with the discounts already in place like 10% off dining, 10% off goods at World of Disney, etc).

If AP holders are only 5%, then why try so hard to keep them coming back and spending more by giving discounts that cost you money?

[snyderla]

Supposidly, this is a separate plan for AP Holders, not the only way to get an AP rate. If you are willing to put down a non-refundable deposit, you will be guaranteed the best possible rate. If you don't want to do that, then you can wait to see if AP rates come out through the current channels.

Oh! I didn't know you could still get the AP rate the other way, too. I was REALLY wondering what to do about my Dec trip, 2nd & 3rd we are staying at a non DVC resort and I was hoping for a good rate. We might stay at GF if I can get one! (for MIL & Christmas decorations) But, since I won't pick up my AP until Sept trip, and it will be 80 days then between trips, I was afraid I was out of luck completely. Now I can just wait and see if one comes out, then call and book it if I can. Right??? I won't have to have the AP in my hand that way.

Lori

[BostonRob]

If AP holders are only 5%, then why try so hard to keep them coming back and spending more by giving discounts that cost you money?


Well lets keep in mind that generally discounts don't COST Disney anything. Like any hotel or cruise ship, an usold room is what costs money. So even if you have to give a huge discount to fill a room (or a themepark), it is still better than making nothing at all on an empty room.

We know WDW has had trouble filling rooms in the past 5 years, hence the discounts both AP and otherwise. My guess is the changes to discounts we're witnessing are indicative of fewer empty rooms.

Another guess I would have is this - that 5% is probably a large percent of their profits. I have no idea what the profit margin is in the entertainment industry, but 5% of any business is worth keeping, right?

[lllovell]

Oh! I didn't know you could still get the AP rate the other way, too. I was REALLY wondering what to do about my Dec trip, 2nd & 3rd we are staying at a non DVC resort and I was hoping for a good rate. We might stay at GF if I can get one! (for MIL & Christmas decorations) But, since I won't pick up my AP until Sept trip, and it will be 80 days then between trips, I was afraid I was out of luck completely. Now I can just wait and see if one comes out, then call and book it if I can. Right??? I won't have to have the AP in my hand that way.

Lori

This one is still not 100% either way Lori. If you go ahead and sign up for the dates at the hotel you want, you will get a discount NOW if one is available and it will be discounted more if something changes in the future. There is some question as to if any extra AP rates will be released at all (but obviously if the hotel is not full they will do what they need to in order to fill the rooms), but this way, if you get a "discount" now on those nights, you know the maximum it will cost you.

[gullyf]

Oh! I didn't know you could still get the AP rate the other way, too. I was REALLY wondering what to do about my Dec trip, 2nd & 3rd we are staying at a non DVC resort and I was hoping for a good rate. We might stay at GF if I can get one! (for MIL & Christmas decorations) But, since I won't pick up my AP until Sept trip, and it will be 80 days then between trips, I was afraid I was out of luck completely. Now I can just wait and see if one comes out, then call and book it if I can. Right??? I won't have to have the AP in my hand that way.
Lori
Unfortunately, it would appear that the jury is still out on this one. No one, including Disney management (at least at the levels that people seem to be dealing with), really seems to be quite sure. All in all, I am not impressed with how this appears to have been handled. And I really have a hard time believing that the imagineers were called in to simulate an environment of ineptitude :sad2:

[Sammie]

This is probably all true. But if tourism is picking up again, who can blame them? Disney will set their prices at whatever the market will bear. If they have trouble selling rooms, the discounts will come back - if there's no vacancy, then we've probably seen the end of discounts.

Similarly, if nobody renews their AP's you may see Disney revert back to the old AP discount system. Then again, if Disney continues to fill its parks and sell its rooms, even in the absence of their old AP customers, then the AP program may dry up entirely. Why should disney care if its parks are filled with people who come once a month or with people who come once every 3 years, as long as the parks are full?

Agree with you completely.

I know it seems to hurt some feelings that Disney would replace them with another paying guest; but it is a business. As you stated as long as the rooms fill up it does not matter who fills them.

If enough people do not use the program and it fails, Disney will try something else. I just do not see that happening though. Already some of the naysayers are booking theirs using this program just as fast as their fingers can type. :)

[lllovell]

Well lets keep in mind that generally discounts don't COST Disney anything. Like any hotel or cruise ship, an usold room is what costs money. So even if you have to give a huge discount to fill a room (or a themepark), it is still better than making nothing at all on an empty room.

We know WDW has had trouble filling rooms in the past 5 years, hence the discounts both AP and otherwise. My guess is the changes to discounts we're witnessing are indicative of fewer empty rooms.

Another guess I would have is this - that 5% is probably a large percent of their profits. I have no idea what the profit margin is in the entertainment industry, but 5% of any business is worth keeping, right?

How do cash discounts off goods and services not cost them money?

If I were supposed to pay $75 a ticket for Cirq and now I can get those same tickets for 56.25, then it just cost them 18.75 per ticket. I do understand that this is a way of making sure the arena is filled for each show the same as AP rates are a way of keeping the hotels full.

Same for a dining discount (especially DDE which gives you 20% off both meals and alcohol). If I am supposed to pay $100 for a meal and instead pay $80, isn't that costing them $20?

Also, you are kinda making my point for me. If the AP holders matter (bread and butter kinda group) then they will keep pushing the program. If AP holders were not causing an increase in the bottom line, they would be stopping all discounts, not adding a couple of sizeable ones this past year alone. I am one of those that doesn't see the new AP program as a way of discontinuing the AP discounts. I see it as a cost effective way to fill as many if not more hotel rooms.

[lllovell]

Agree with you completely.

I know it seems to hurt some feelings that Disney would replace them with another paying guest; but it is a business. As you stated as long as the rooms fill up it does not matter who fills them.


This is true as long as the people filling the rooms are spending money at the parks as well. (and restaurants, DTD, etc). What we don't have are figures, so everything is opinions, but there has to be a reason to give bigger and better discounts (again - who knows about the AP room discount program at this point...but they certainly could have said "no more" and been done with it if they weren't concerned with losing the AP owner's business all together).

[lillygator]

How do cash discounts off goods and services not cost them money?


Same for a dining discount (especially DDE which gives you 20% off both meals and alcohol). If I am supposed to pay $100 for a meal and instead pay $80, isn't that costing them $20?



Oh my, one example.....have you ever seen the wine prices and then compared them to the same bottles of wine in the stores? Look at what you pay for a chicken or pasta dinner at any of the sit down restaurants...They mark food and alcohol prices WAY up...20% is not costing them anything when it comes to dining....now the ticket part I don't know about....


eta* and having that 20% off has gotten us to try many new sit down, more expensive restaurants thus spending more money....

[lllovell]

Oh my, one example.....have you ever seen the wine prices and then compared them to the same bottles of wine in the stores? Look at what you pay for a chicken or pasta dinner at any of the sit down restaurants...They mark food and alcohol prices WAY up...20% is not costing them anything when it comes to dining....now the ticket part I don't know about....


eta* and having that 20% off has gotten us to try many new sit down, more expensive restaurants thus spending more money....

no no - I get that and know that the mark up is huge on services like restaurant food and drinks (I mean what can a fountain Coke cost? $0.10 MAYBE?) My point though is that they are giving up $20 of profit on this end to get more people in the restaurants, right? So, how can it be a bad decision to give up $20-30 a night profit to AP holders to get them at the parks, stores and restaurants to spend more money? $20 profit given up here to make $30 more makes sense to me, but it is STILL costing them $20 upfront that they might not make back. So, there has to be information that tells them we will spend more if they get us back on property.

[BostonRob]

Are you implying that AP holders spend more money once they're actually in WDW than other guests?

[lillygator]

what??

[lllovell]

Are you implying that AP holders spend more money once they're actually in WDW than other guests?

Over the course of a year - yes I am (since the break even point is 10-12 days right? not including discounts)

However, if Disney could fill those rooms with new guests each time, I am sure that a good many of them spend more than my family on souvineers and if they were paying rack rates, then they would also pay more than I do for rooms (typically). So, if that was the case, the would no longer court AP holders.

That said - who do you think fills the parks during the long months between school starting back and school ending each year? I don't have any hard numbers here (and I have looked when all of this came up) but I am willing to bet its more AP holders than not. Especially Florida Resident AP holders. Obviously, there are more AP discounts to be had during "off peak" times to attract those people like us DISers that are Disney nuts. If the visitation was balanced throughout the year, they probably wouldn't cater to AP holders as much as they do now either.

Such as it is, I bought my AP to get into the parks cheaper than paying daily. Any and all extra perks I get are just that - - - perks. If I have to jump through the occasional hoop to get my perk, then I have to decide if the perk is worth it to my family. As with any new program, it won't fit everyone's needs, but I think this one will fit most people's needs when it settles a bit and the internet feeding frenzy stops.