Why I Should Not Join??

[BC]

We are just back from our stay at the Boardwalk. We went into the Vacation club office and spoke with a nice lady named Carol Ann. We are very interested in joining, but with all these great code rates and other specials, is it really worth the annual fees and such? I am pretty convinced it is the best way to go, but my husband is a bit leary. Please tell me the negatives you see with joining. I just want to make sure we have thought of everything first. I did not post this on the DVC board, because everyone there is a member so I am sure there would be no negative comments. Thanks in advance for your honesty.

[Jaypd]

This would be better on our DVC board so I am moving it there

Thanks

[Granny]

I am a new DVC member but I can think of many reasons not to join DVC. I would not advise joining DVC if:

1. If you don't like Disney all that much and want a timeshare to trade out for other places....DVC is not your best value there.

2. If you don't care if you stay on-site at Disney. To me, this is a critical factor since you can probably find deals every year for some nice accommodations off site. My family (and I) just put a premium value on staying on-site. The Disney transportation system is great and being on-site makes the relaxation portion of the vacation a lot better.

3. If you don't mind "hotel room" vacations. The ability to stay in accommodations that are larger than hotel rooms or even hotel suites is another critical factor. Also, the kitchenette and laundry facilities are not found in most hotels, even the suites.

4. If you want to buy into DVC to allow you to stay in other Disney resort hotels. As is being posted ad nauseum on this board, this is a risky reason to invest.

5. If you are buying in a DVC location that you don't particularly want to stay in. This board's adage of "buy where you want to stay" is great advice. If you are flexible with your accommodations and time of year, this becomes less of an issue.

I'm sure there are many more but this response is a little lengthy already.

Ask my why you should buy into DVC and I can give you this many reasons and more!

Good luck on your decision. I think you won't find many with "buyers remorse" here.


Granny

[CarolMN]

First of all, you shouldn't buy DVC (or any timeshare) unless you have discretionary income. IMHO, prepaid vacations come after saving for emergencies (most financial planners recommend having 3-6 months salary in cash reserves), retirement and your children's education.

DVC works best for those families that regularly go to Disney and stay on-site in moderate or deluxe properties. By regularly, I mean at least once every other year for a week or more. It also works best if you can plan ahead - 11 months ahead is optimal.

If your family meets those requirements, DVC can be a good choice. Keep in mind that DVC is an expensive way to go if you plan to trade out on a regular basis. If you've been reading the boards recently, you will know that the point requirements to stay at non-DVC resorts appear to have increased. The best value of DVC points is to stay at the DVC resorts.

We love DVC and are very happy with our purchase. Wish we would have bought in earlier.

Good luck with your decision.

[Laurajean1014]

Because, if you don't join, there will be more for me to buy!!!!:)

[doubletrouble_vb]

Reasons not to buy:

1. You are not in the habit of staying in moderate to deluxe accomodations on site.

2. Disney is nice but you really enjoy visiting other attractions in Orlando.

3. You can't envision yourself going to DisneyWorld, Hilton Head or Vero Beach year after year.

4. You have other high priority large expenses you need to satisfy.

5. You don't require the "disney" atmosphere every time you come down. In fact you enjoy the variations you find in other accomodations...actually this is key...if you don't place a premium on the Disney atmosphere you can do better by shopping around.

6. For whatever reason you are able to travel in the Fall through Spring (ignoring Christmas) and any of the above apply.

Hmmmm maybe I shouldn't have bought!!!

Well...I will add I bought because I felt I would also enjoy Vero & Hilton Head in off seasons & gasp...because I could waste the points on weekend stays in places like Manhattan, Charleston, San Francisco, and Vermont. And yes...it'd be a better use of the points to pay cash for these stays.

[sgtpet]

They lie to you about flexibility. It is #2 on their sales promotion. They are doing things to limit the flexibility. If you like your home resort for the next 40 years and having to plan 11 months in advance for vacation. Look at the posts. I was won who was debating to purchase. I chose not too.

[B and B]

We live only a few hours away and go often....and always on the spur of the moment. I have to admire all the folks that know what they are doing 7-11 months ahead.

We always check the boards and have always been able to purchase points at discounted rates.

We have for the past year been able to rent through Disney a 1-2 BR at any of the DVC properties for less than purchasing someone else's points.

We are in our mid 50's and have concerns about better use of money into 2042, because you see, we would need to purchase two contracts so that each of our kids could carry on our tradition.

All that said, we love Dis and use it to rendevouz with grown kids and grandkids at least once a month. Add up what we do spend, even though we always get good deals, the great info we gleam from this board has me convinced it is the thing to do. I am still working on hubby, but feel certain he will agree one of these days. My newest angle is to add up the money we spend in the course of a year (I should say that we have been doing the Dis thing for the past 35 years - yikes - so that just goes to show you how silly we have been and continue to be. Gotta change it!!

[sgtpet]

DVC Dave

You appear to be objective. Glad to see this on these boards

[DVCDAVE]

If anyone disagrees about stealing of benefits or perks, just try and pool hop over to AKL. They won't even let you park your car there. No where in my paperwork does it say "pool hop anywhere BUT AKL" Even if I want to stay there on points, They jacked up the point schedule so high that I can only stay in August when the smell is so ripe........well I won't get in to that.

[deerh]

DVCDAVE If you don't like being lied to, don't join. Disney relies on it's pristine reputation to suck you in to believing they won't, or can't do no wrong, then they steal benefits and perks away from you. I bought a year ago, now I feel like the biggest sucker in town.


DVC DAVE: If you are that unhappy with your DVC, then sell it throught your timeshare store of your choice, you should have no problem,especially if you own at BWV!
deerh

[DVCDAVE]

DEERH, In fact I have been happy with my DVC purcahses and stays up until the last 2 days. I really could care less about pool hopping, and I have participated in many discussions about it. But, over the last year I have most defantely seen a patern of behavior develope by Disney which makes me feel.....well in the words of PAMOKW "like the black sheep of the family". Face it, even if you believe Bill Clinton didn't inhale (in fact I believe he said "I did it at Yale"), didn't have sex, and doesn't know what the meaning of the word "is" is, Disney sold us "flexibility". Now they may not have taken it away, but they sure have priced it out of the reach of all but the most heavy point holders. Now we ALL know that there is plenty of bread in Ethiopia, so there is NO reason for starvation, its just that bread costs 3 years annual salary for most of its people, so maybe they too should shut up and stop complaining like me "huh".

[prplcrzy]

Dave you should sell you DVC if you are not happy. I mean to say that I totally don't understand how you can be so negative unless you didn't read the materials before you purchased. If the little things get to you like this you probably will never be happy with it, so selling it would probably be your best option.

If you think it is really not worth it, I'll give you $10 per point for your membership, I for one will use it.

[deerh]

DVC DAVE:

I agree with you that FLEXIBILITY is a BIG issue with Disney. I am contimplating buying at HHI and Add on, and am disturbed by the point cost of the cruise going up. I posted earlier on this subject, and am burned by that! They keep going up and up, and this is a troublesome trend. I agree, BUT, I also AGREE that the best use of points is at the DVC resorts, NOT at poly, etc. TRUE, it is an option, but I can't get kitchen, etc at the poly. So, if you bought with that impression, Dean is correct, in that it is not a wise use of points to use for that option. I am in agreement that they need to watch the points on the cruise. I have in my hand the brochure of the DVC, and guess what is on top, next to the DVC logo? The cruise!!!! So, they advertise the cruise, but they are pricing the points too high. For example, a cat 6 on the 7 day summer, is 211 points, it was 203 last year, at 8pts\yr, it will go up to 235 in 3 years, that is too high!! So, for 3 people, one child and 2 adults and 1 child paying cash it is 545 or so pts in only 3 years!!!! Imagine what it will be in 2008 or 2009!!!!!!!
Just a point to ponder...........

[prplcrzy]

deerh,

I was wondering if you have ever gotten the cash prices and compared cash prices to the increase in the points needed for the cruise. I have never thought of the cruise because I thought it was too many points, and now that I know it is increasing I will be even less likely to go on one.

[deerh]

I was wondering if you have ever gotten the cash prices and compared cash prices to the increase in the points needed for the cruise. I have never thought of the cruise because I thought it was too many points, and now that I know it is increasing I will be even less likely to go on one.

Yes, I have gone on the cruise (4 day) this summer, and loved it. I paid cash for 1 child, and points for the rest of us. Kind of defeats the purpose of the DVC! Why would I have a montlhly payment to DVC, then charge the cruise (good deal), and then make a monthly payment for the cruise? Kind of seems silly, but maybe the points won't be so bad. Besides, I can afford with points, the 4 day cruise, and Could pay cash for the 2 kids, and use DW and I on points. Good question you ask, but defeats DVC in my opinion!!!!
deerh

[DVCDAVE]

PRPLCRZY-- First, read my posts, I have been happy, up until the last two days. I did read my material, as you did, futher I may like to add that I am not that stupid. I have a 4 year degree in business, and my wife has 2 graduate degrees in medicine. Maybe instead of scolding me about reading my material, you should read the marketing material that Disney sent you and scold them for selling a theme of "flexibility". I too read the pharases on how they can change things, and I realize that. But I NEVER expected a 37% increase after 10 years of stability to the schedule. And you are right about their legal rights, what about their moral right to present things in a fair and honest fashion.

What you seem to convienantly overlook is that for an average family like mine with two boys ages 7 and 9, always booking during magic season, EVEN if we book at the 11 month window, there is NO assurance of getting what we want. The DC collection always assured us (up until two days ago) of a safety net. But when Disney jacks up those rates at a 37% rate, our vacations may be OUT THE WINDOW. Face it, some us can't travel just anytime. We bought with and understanding that this plan was differant, "flexible".

PRPLCRZY, rather than tell me to read my paperwork, why don't you read YOUR marketing material, and tell me if I am wrong. I challange you to PROVE me wrong, there isn't one page in that material that doesn't state the word "flexibility" and show a photo or a non DVC resort. Let's be honest with each other who lied to who.

I'll take your offer of $10/point in jest, you may think I am stupid for buying DVC, but like I said I have a BS degree in Finance and have been a stockbroker for 22 years. I know supply and demand, and if you think that moves like this enhance DVC values, your wrong. This type of behavior on Disney's part is exactly what has given the timeshare industry the reputation that it deserves. But, as I said before, Disney relied on its pristine reputation, and now we are all suckers.

[Doctor P]

Let's consider the facts for a moment. First, the DVC Disney Collection options have not been eliminated. The price of the option has gone up. Second, there apparently was no increase in the point price of DC accomodations (at WDW resorts) in the first ten years of the program. This is despite large increases in the rack rates at the resorts that have outstripped the increase in the per point cost of DVC. Third, the new point schedule offers MORE options for members. We now have access to different views at the WDW resorts--something not available before (I can't count the number of posts I saw over the past year complaining that one could not pay cash to upgrade to concierege level at the WDW resorts when staying on DVC points). Fourth, if we take kem330's example from YC/BC, a member with 150 points could have stayed 6 week nights at YC/BC with the old point schedule. Under the new point schedule, the same member could stay 5 nights. Yes, it is a reduction in what you are able to do, but there remains a significant option to use your points in this manner as a "safety net". The reduction from 6 days accomodations to 5 days is meaningful, but it is also not the kind of thing that would ruin my limited days on earth.

[dianeschlicht]

I would like to post an apology to the original poster. Unfortunately, you asked this question at a time when there are 2 or 3 people who are very upset about one detail involving exchanges of thier timeshare into a hotel system. It really has little to do with the timeshare experience itself. Go through the history on this board, and I think you will see many pros and cons to membership.

The first several posters gave you good information about pros and cons. Please try not to let the arguing of a few turn you off completely.

We have been members since 1997. We are in our mid 50's and have used our DVC many times to travel with family and friends to WDW. It was not our intent to use our timeshare for anything other than our home resort stay except for an occational exchange. If you love Disney as much as we do and love staying in great accommodations on site, it might be worth looking into more. Be sure to know which resort you want for your "home" so you can be happy with that for the next 40 years in case trading out becomes difficult. We only regret that we did not do it much earlier than we did.

[stlrod]

Going back to the original post, if you are a die-hard WDW fan who cannot imagine staying offsite, you can ignore this post. Otherwise, you should not buy DVC if you have not checked out at least one other high-quality timeshare program for comparison (Marriott, Hilton or possibly Sheraton). I am not saying that you should buy somwhere else, just that you should check it out. Seven years ago, my wife and I made a special trip to Orlando for the sole purpose of buying OKW. We also checked out Marriott's Cypress Harbour. We bought Marriott because it was quieter (although the transportation is great at DVC, we found busses zipping through the property annoying.) We also liked the idea of ownership as opposed to renting and were concerned about whether DVC would continue to build outside of Orlando (as it turned out DVC sold its Newport Coast property to Marriott.) We have never regretted our decision. Don't get me wrong. DVC is a great program (we're staying at both BWV and WLV over Xmas and still considering buying at HHI.) I just think that you will be more comfortable with whatever decision you make if you check out the competition. If you were buying Marriott, I would tell you the same thing--you owe it to yourself to check out DVC.

[BC]

I am a die hard Disney NUT and I thought (before this post) that the DVC was something I had to have. We just returned from the Boardwalk villas and LOVED it. My husband is the hesitant one and he even listened to the spill and is somewhat convinced to buy in. However, after all these posts, it seems unless we want to stay at a DVC resort every year,we may be wasting our money. Also, I loved the Boardwalk because of all the action and the location. I know it is sold out and the next best thing would be the Beach Club villas. However, the girl we spoke with said there would not be any wonderful views from there. It appears they will face Epcot and the parking lot of the Beach club. If I will have a problem staying at the Boardwalk, I don't think I would be pleased. Does anyone know if there are a certain number of rooms alloted for cash paying customers and a certain number for DVC members. If so, I might have a better chance of staying there if I just pay cash. We got a great rate this time with one of the codes posted on Mousesavers. When you add in the annual fees, I may have paid about the same this trip as I would have if I were a member.

[WebmasterDoc]

Does anyone know if there are a certain number of rooms alloted for cash paying customers and a certain number for DVC members.

DVC holds about 4% of the room inventory, which it uses to allow for refurbishing of the rooms. Any of these rooms not being rehabbed may be rented by Disney. The remainder (once a DVC resort is sold) are owned by the members and will not be available for cash rental unless members choose to exchange to other WDW resorts or use points for things like the cruise. Rooms still unreserved by members 60 days ahead are also available for cash reservations.

Members may also rent reservations to others.

If you want to stay at non-DVC resorts, then DVC membership may not fit your needs. If you enjoy staying at DVC resorts, membership may be the best means to accomplish that.

The current economy has created an unusual availability for rooms all over WDW, including the DVC resorts. There have been many discounts offered to try to fill the rooms. However, that situation is unlikely to continue once the economy returns to normal.

Good luck with your decision!

[Laurajean1014]

Please see "Why so negative" thread!

[Jison]

I am going to be VERY honest. We bought in 1993, had passes to the parks for 7 years and have used the heck out of the DVC. We love Disney and it was a great deal for us. BUT.....it is 2001, the points are too expensive in my opinion and they are only good until 2042. I would not spend the money today to buy again.

We have 591 points and use them every year and sometimes borrow. My Mom has 380 and we use her points too. Our original points were paid off in 3 years and all the add-ons are paid off too.

We do use our points to cruise and we only go to Disney during Easter and Christmas week so there are very few discounts. PLUS with 4 kids, we needed two rooms and so we ALWAYS get a two bedroom.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. It is JMHO.

[Disney Doll]

I'm not sure what all this 37% increase business is and all the negativity, but I can tell you that DH and I have owned DVC since 1997, and couldn't be more pleased!!! We have always enjoyed staying in the DVC properties (have been to OKW...our home resort...numerous times,as well as BWV several times)and have never had a problem with getting reservations, have always gotten exactly what we asked for, and been very pleased with the property, service etc. I do not feel that we have been lied to in any way. We didn't buy the DVC with the intention of using the points to stay at other WDW resorts...we understood up front, based on the materials provided, that the best use of points was at a DVC property. Once, we used points to stay at a non-DVC property, understanding full well that it was not the most effective use of points, but it was a special occasion, and we wanted to stay at The Plaza Hotal in Manhattan, so we did. When I read the DVC materials, I do not rerad "flexibilty" as "best use of points". I read flexibilty as"you can do this, but your points would be better used staying at a DVC resort". And guess what!!!!There's no hotel that can outdo a DVC,IMO..and that is MY opinion, so don't a million people start to flame me!!!!

The bottom line is, if you don't think you're always going to enjoy staying at DVC properties, then buying into the DVC is probably not the best option for you. Personally, I am very contented at the BWV, or OKW, and I'm sure I will be just as pleased with WLV(we'll be there in October) and BCV.

[one_cat]

BC, have you thought of buying a resale if you are sold on BWV?

[prplcrzy]

Hey Dave,

First off I don't remember calling you stupid, and if you get that impression from my posts I sincerely apologize. Secondly, my posts are not meant to scold, but rather put a realistic light on the situation. From your posts and descriptions, it sounds like DVC is not for you. If you can only go during a certain time of the year, and that time seems to be the most popular, these things can happen. It really sounds like you should have purchased a timeshare with a guaranteed week so that you can go when you can go.

They didn't take away your ability to use the flexible option, they just made it more expensive (we'll actually see when the new point charts come out) for you to use. I'm truly sorry that this struck a sour chord with you but I do still have my marketing materials and nothing in there says that they provide this as part of the program, but rather an option that you can use. If your guide presented the program and made it sound like there would be no changes in the options, then you really should either take it up with them or their supervisor. My guide did not present it that way and from reading quite a few of the other posts, it sounds like she was not the only one who presented it in the proper light.

I do really feel for you, but the tone of the posts of the negative people being upset over something that is not even released yet seems to me to be jumping the gun. No one has even seen these charts yet, how can anyone form an opinion that DVC is out to make flexible vacationing impossible.

I still do not understand how you think the program is not flexible and I probably never will. I really think that we will have to agree to disagree. I have read some really positive posts on these boards and tend to agree wholeheartedly that this is a great program, if they decide to change it that it their right. If you have read my posts you will see that if the increases are real, then I am not happy about the cost going up but there is nothing that I can do but sell if I think that it is not right.

I don't think that increases in the pricing of anything enhances its value at all, I'm just saying that from what i've heard this is not a blanket increase but an adjustment. Some went up and some went down. If it were a blanket increase, I think that those that relied on this option should be disappointed, but since it is an option and not the actual timeshare that you bought I will never understand how anyone can be upset.

Dave, I truly hope that these increases are minimal and that during the time you wish to use goes down. If it doesn't I really feel bad that this happened to you and everyone else that relied on this option. But I just don't see how the flexibility changed, that's all.

[prplcrzy]

deerh, I think you misunderstood my question or I didn't present it so that yo uwould understand it. I was curious if the percentage that the points went up for the cruise went up as much as the percentage the cash cost went up. I didn't mean to suggest that you should pay cash for your trip. I was wondering if it was getting more expensive for cash customers to go or DVC owners.

[deerh]

eerh, I think you misunderstood my question or I didn't present it so that yo uwould understand it. I was curious if the percentage that the points went up for the cruise went up as much as the percentage the cash cost went up. I didn't mean to suggest that you should pay cash for your trip. I was wondering if it was getting more expensive for cash customers to go or DVC owners.

Good question prplcrzy! The cat 6 verandah (comparing apples to apples) is going up 8 pts\yr, 7day. I don't know if this is comparable to cash, but it would cost 454+78 (1 child)=532 pts for a 7 day cruise,so based on $10 per pt, that is $5320. Now I have 1 other child pay cash, and I am guessing $800, so,$6100 for a 7 day cruise. Not bad and I am looking at 2004, 3 years from now, so I believe that is a good deal. Remember-FOOD IS INCLUDED, so I still disagree that pts are NOT a good value for the cruise. JMHO, and the cost now for 2003 on the DCL site is $5500 or so, and that is only for 2003. So is it a good deal? Who knows? Prices could go up, after all DCL is the hottest thing right now, they fill up the ships, so I doubt discounts are available. By the way, the prices I quote are prime time summer, not value season. Only you can decide if it is a deal or not........
deerh

[prplcrzy]

I have never done a cruise before, are the DCL more expensive than other cruises, and if so would you know how much more and is it worth it?

[Jison]

I can answer your question. We have gone on two Disney Cruises, one 4 day and one 7 day. We used points for all 8 of us. My parents, my kids and us. The 7 day we did pay cash for one kid. These cruises were during spring break.

Next spring we are going on RCCL on the Voyager. It is costing us $6000 total for 8 of us in two inside cabins during Easter week.
DCL was 5400 for each cabin. DO the math. DCL was a lot more expensive. NOW.......I am not sure if they always are, but next Easter they sure are. We all wanted something different after being on both the Magic and the Wonder. :)

[Deb & Bill]

We've been members since '97. We've stayed at OKW 4 times, BWV one time, VB one time. We have two more trips to OKW planned. Plus a 4 day cruise in Nov and 4 nights at OKW. We've gone at Christmas time, early Dec, Thanksgiving, early summer - all on points. We will be going at Spring Break instead of early June since our hospital will be having our three year inspection during the summer. We work all our trips around our son's school year and our jobs. We plan to go back to VB for a few nights in '03. We were looking at Hawaii, but the airfare will be a bit too much for us. Maybe later.

We have all the flexibility we need. We might throw in a night or two at another resort on AP rates or DC rates. Or we might use our points later on.

We love DVC.

[msdis]

Only one reason not to join.....if you do not already suffer from ocd before you join DVC, you will after. Just ask my DH. He has lost his wife, his cook, his housekeeper, his companion. But he has gained a DVC and Disney expert. :D

[Goofyfooter]

I'm troubled by some of the replies I'm been reading. In other words, if anyone is unhappy with DVC, one should sell his/her interests immediately. No one has the right to complain or give feedback. Is that it? Unlike DVCDAVE, I'm very happy with my interests in DVC. In fact, I always encourage other Disney fans to buy; however, I don't expect everyone to be happy with DVC. More importantly, I'm interested in the nature of people's complaint. In DVCDAVE's case, there is one valid point...lack of fairness in restricting pool hopping to AKL (since I've never tried, I'll take his word for it). I don't enjoy swimming much, so this probably won't affect me, but that is precisely the reason why he deserves my support. We can't all wait for things to affect us before complaining. What if they start charging members for parking? I don't drive at WDW, but I would like the freedom to choose without being penalized. What if they start charging for monorail usuage? What if they take away your favorite privilege at WDW? Remember, you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

[DVCDAVE]

GOOFYFOOTER, et. al. Let me clarify a little. It isn't that I don't like or enjoy my DVC, what I don't like is Disney's handeling of the program. In the 50 weeks I have been a member Disney has set a pattern of behavior which, in MY OPINION, is disturbing.

First, yes the legal language in the documents does provide them with the legal authority to do what they want with the program. However, the marketing material sets another tone.

In the last 50 weeks, we have seen pool hopping, which is a perk, NOT allowed at AKL. Second, they arised the points needed to book a cruise on DCL (again I understand it is a privlage to cruise on DCL). Now, they are going to raise the point requirements on the DC.

It has been, to say the least, a disturbing year for this household as we quietly sit by and watch many of our perks and privlages vanish along with future vacation plans. It is also easy to predict that in the foreseable future all we will have left is our home resort, and not musch more.

I am certain that the only reason DVC was even allowed to cruise on DCL is that Disney feared empty ships and the negative press and shareholder outrage of another Disney failure. Now that DCL is starting to stand on its own two feet DVC will probably see even more restrictions and changes applied to that program too. Clearly DVC is being used to insure DCLs success, and then we will be tossed aside once Disney has lined its pockets and the press and media isn't looking. Based on the reactions on this board in the last week, hardly a whimper will be made. Those complaining will simply be pointed to the legal doc's stating Disney's right to terminate DCL. (and they will be right) Those complaining will be told to sit down and accept it. I say we should stand together in defense of what we have before it is all gone.

As far as pool hopping at SAB, is there anyone out there who believes that they will still be able to hop there after the BCVs open ? I think we can forget it ! Everyone just sat around quietly when AKL opened with a ban on pool hopping for us, and hardly a peep was said on this board.

Yes, I have been vocal about the upcoming changes in the DC. It has been an important feature that this family was sold on. It happens to be a key safety feature that offered a REASONABLY AFFORDABLE alternative (in points) should our home resort be booked solid. We, like many, many families in this program have school aged children. As anone that is, or has been in our situation realizes, we vacation when the schools vacation. Guess what ?, it shouldn't surprise anyone that those times are peak season with low vacancy rates, and high demand for DVC rooms.

Earlier, PRPLCRZY posted that maybe we should have bought a timeshare with a 'fixed week'. Well, the reason we didn't was 1) that really doesn't help as school vacations float with the holidays, and kids change schools as they progress. 2) flexibility and affordability were splattered throughout the marketing material. Yes, I do believe that the flexibility IS deminished if the point requirements are raised. We, like everyone bought our points based on our needs and requirements, now Disney is changing the requirements on this facet of the program. Our points are not infinite.

In conclusion, I would recomend that anyone looking at buying in to this program also look in to Disney's past behavior too. They don't tell you about the DVC changes in the marketing material, and gloss over it when asked. Second, I may be vocal now, but you will be too when your favorite facet is changed or restricted too, and its coming. (unless we all act in conjunction with one another to protect each others interests in this program.)

I could only imagine how fast Disney would back down if everyone's energys were directed at them, rather than me and others who feel as I do concerning these changes in the DC.

[Joeblack]

I am very happy with DVC. Just added-on at WLV and probably will add-on at BCV. However, I agree with DVCDAVE. Being passive about so many downgrades in our privileges will only give Disney free way to do whatever it pleases. Yeah, I know they still will do whatever they please because all the legal stuff is covered, but I also beleive that there must be a parallel between what is marketed and what is actually offered. I don't appreciate when the rules of the game are changed in the middle of the game without even a warning.

I won't bad-mouth Disney because I believe they are a very efficient company and DVC gives an incredible value to its owners. However, I don't think we should just ask "how high" when Disney says JUMP!! especially when we were sold a smooth ride.

If people are not happy about something that affects them, they should be able to voice it here in the forums for prospective buyers to learn it all before taking the plunge. Selling your points is not an answer for an unsatisfied customer. People who are not happy about their Firestone wheels on their Ford Explorers should not be told to just "sell your car and forget about it"

[DVCDAVE]

Thank You JOEBLACK, I have followed your posts over the last year, and I respect your opinion and viewpoints. You always have something to add.

[JonHM]

Hi Dave, a few comments:

First of all, you make one pro-DVC argument concerning flexibility yourself. You say that the reason that you bought it instead of a traditional timeshare is that you could flex your vacations around your kid's school holidays. To me, that is a *significant* flexibility benefit.

You have some valid things to be upset about *but* are also getting upset about a lot of stuff based on speculation. You repeatedly talk about not being able to book anywhere other than one's home resort, but I just don't see that happening. First of all, as has been pointed out, the new points schedules for the DC have not come out yet, so we don't yet know how much that benefit has been lessened. But let's put DC aside for a moment, and talk about DVC resorts. What reasons do you have to think that we will eventually be trapped booking only at our home resort? What trend have you seen in this direction? To me, the fact that we can book on points very reasonably at OKW, BWV and VWL, AND the soon to be built BCV AND ECV (?) provides quite a LOT of flexibility. My point is not even if the DC increases ARE worst case, which it does not look like they will be, from examples posted here since the initial posts, even if that is true, there is still a LOT of flexibility that is built into the program AND guaranteed (DVC points schedules for DVC resorts) - to me the rest of the programs offering additional flexibility (like DC) are just gravy. I'm really happy they're there, but that's a bonus that they are, not part of the core program.

Part of this is also a glass half empty/ half full thing. To me, when they offer us fantastic benefits for a few years, that's fantastic, as with DCL when it was starting up. Sure, they used the established base of the DVC to help get the DCL on it's feet, but it was a benefit, not a right. They could have gone it on their own, with no sort of discounted ability for DVCers to cruise at any point. But here we have had this benefit offered for years. It's the same with DC. You are upset that they are raising the points/night (even though it is not clear how much yet), and my reaction is WOW! 10 years without any increases! What a fantastic benefit that was! Would you have been happier if they had been raising the rates 8% every year since 1991? They would have been consistent, but points/night would be a lot higher now than they are going to be next year. YES, you have acknowleged that your dissatisfaction is 'your opinion', but you posted it in such a way that a new person, looking for objective advice, is getting told that DVC will only 'lie' to them. Look, clearly you're upset about the coming increases in the DC, and understandably so, but I think that your initial posts about Disney habitually 'lying' are overly harsh and also inappropriate in response to a new prospective person. And I am NOT saying that you shouldn't say anything negative. Everyone has a perfect right to complain about anything that they're not happy with. But she doesn't understand (although she may by now) the context of what you're complaining about, all she's reading is that you're writing that Disney has habitually lied to you.

The way I view it, the only 'sure thing' we have in DVC is the DVC resorts themselves. I am completely convinced that we will *always* have other options and benefits available to us, BUT those benefits are going to change over time. Some old benefits will disappear, and other new ones will emerge. But it is all centered around the core, 'guaranteed' portion of the program, which is the DVC resorts themselves.

I absolutely agree with you that EVERYONE who belongs to DVC who is upset about the point increases for DC (once the schedule comes out) should run straight to DVC and give them an earfull. You are absolutely correct that people who are dissatisfied need to express that to Disney.

[prplcrzy]

Dave,

I have a question, if you realize that it is a privilage to use the DCL and DC, how can you possibly be upset because they increased the cost on something that is a privilage and they didn't have to do for you in the first place?

Your length of time as a member is 50 weeks, I'll call it one year to simplify. I have been a member for a few years now and I do not see any pattern of lying to us, or restricting our membership. There have been a few small changes to the entire thing most of them affecting privilages they give you, not rights you have.

I see no concrete examples of how they took something away from us, just that they adjusted the offerings so they could make it work for all of us, not just you and a few others.

You have mentioned the pool hopping at AKL, didn't they restrict all visitors from the AKL unless you were staying there? I think they will lift the ban on pool hopping there once the newness has worn off, but until then they have the right to insure that the paying guests who have paid their hard earned cash to stay at that resort (since it is not a DVC resort) can enjoy themselves and not have their experince ruined by the tons of people who want to go over and gawk and the new resort. I really don't think this will be a ban forever.

A privilage is just that, and if it means that the people who want to use it have to pay more points to do so rather than increasing my dues and everyone elses dues that don't use it, why should I pay for something that you want to use? If you want to use it that's great but I don't want to have to pay for your enjoyment of a privilage that they don't even have to offer in the first place.

As for the parking perk, it has been eliminted for everyone, all resort guests, except DVC members at DVC resorts. How can you possibly be upset at them for making an exception for you, me and the other members of the DVC? It seems to me that they have been still making exceptions for us. No other resort guest, the cash paying ones, have an exception like that.

Dave, I hope you remain a member for a few years so that you can develop a better understanding of the timeshare you bought, then I think you will be much happier with the money you spent, and will have the realization that most of the rest of us do that they are-

1) a business

2) trying to make the programs work with out raising the costs for everyone

3) not trying to make your experience miserable, but trying to make the experiences of everyone better

I don't care what business you run, you can't make everyone happy all of the time. This seems like one of those times.

[Dancind]

I think maybe this thread should have stopped with Granny's post. All the really compelling reasons not to buy into DVC were listed right there. Some of the other posts have been vents from folks who are currently upset about an aspect of the program they don't feel should have changed, even though there were no promises that it wouldn't. Fine to be upset and want to vent, but how about starting your own thread? What you're doing here is discouraging someone from buying who may have been very happy with their DVC membership by making it seem controversial , unorganized, and possibly devious. Disney lies? Really? Prove it. Facts please, not emotions and extrapolation.

[prplcrzy]

Well put Diana!!!

[leanne2255]

I bought in 1999 and don't remember a huge "sell" on flexibility for other resorts. My main reason for buying is that:

1) We go to WDW every year, anyway. DVC just made sense.

2) We LOVED the BWV location.

If you are looking for flexibility to stay at other WDW properties, or the Concierge collection, then maybe one should think twice before buying DVC.

[TnRobin]

Ladies and Gentlemen

I respectfully request you return to the original question of this topic. Any further discussions about what a person should do with thier DVC investment or your opinions of people who may not be happy with DVC; will be remove from this thread.

[raidermatt]

Why NOT purchase?

Its simple. If you are relying on any of the non-guaranteed perks/programs for your satisfaction, you should think twice.

What is guraranteed? The total point cost for the current resorts cannot be raised. Therefore, if you plan to use the majority of your points on DVC properties, DVC is probably a good decision. Especially if you want to stay on-site.

Things like the Disney Collection, Concierge Collection, etc are not likely to go away, but point costs are not guaranteed, as we were recently reminded of. Certainly demand will dictate the cost.

Focus on the 'meat' of the program (DVC resorts), and decide if it works for you. If it does, go for it. If not, you may still decide to join, but just be prepared for changes, as nothing stays the same...

[baileybrad]

I would never begin to tell someone what to do with their own money and vacation time. I would say that if choose to the DVC for it's ability to offer a timeshare program that is as flexible and well-run as just about any out there today....then go for it. But never consider a timeshare a good investment because it is not necessarily so.

[pluvc1993]

When we sat with our guide though she made it sound absolutely wonderful. I saw quite clearly that I was buying into a home resort instead of the other Disney locations. She clearly stated that the perks were Disney courtesy and can be taken away at their discretions. Another decision factor was their concierge collection and the great world class resorts that they offered.

Did I see it as a wise "investment"? Financially, no. It was a great way to commit to family vacation together every year in a wonderful place that makes you feel young every day. And I can quite frankly say that though I don't agree with the taking away of Disney perks ( you know , we are the "sure" thing) Disney is a great place and the best way to enjoy it is staying there.

Yes family time is a wise "investment."

[Pa@okw95]

Why I should not join was the question? The person that asked that question will never get too many negative answers to that question on this forum. Those who dare are usually "stoned" by others and usually told to sell their points if they are unhappy. I have been posting for years now here and I can say that if you get too negative about the almighty mouse you will hear from those who worship him.
The lady that asked the question must wonder herself about the way these types of questions are handled. At any rate I would say to her that you must consider if Disneyworld is a place where you want to go for the rest of your life. WDW has changed over the last 20 years. It is not the place it once was. I would consider the direction it is going in as well as any of the DVC situations first.
I have been a member of DVC since 95. We got free tickets for many years as one big perk. I would not join today even with the free tickets. WDW is not what it used to be.

[one_cat]

See - you do get both sides here :)

If your primary motivation is to use your points for cruising or to trade into the Disney Collection I would think very carefully about buying.

My understanding is that DVC trades very well into II however the dues are a bit expensive if you are planning to use DVC just to trade into II.

Don't buy if you can't see yourself 30 years from now still enjoying WDW and still getting excited about Coming Home.

Definitely do a lot of reading and research before you buy (something we didn't do) and understand exactly what you are buying and how the timeshare industry works.

That said if your finances are right and every time you leave WDW you start planning your next trip and think about it every minute of every day by all means buy. I truly believe it's one of the best things we ever did...

[trishy]

My hubby talked me into signing the papers last year (BWV). After our trip there in July I have to say the hype of what you read and hear from these boards is NOT what is reality. I found the attitude to be very much turned toward the "you're privileged to have bought this time-share" instead of "we're so happy you chose us". This isn't just limited to the lack of perks, but the service received at the villas (lifeguards, desk clerks, gym). Surprisingly, I found it to be not friendly. I certainly did not feel as though I were at the Happiest Place on Earth. We've been to Disneyland Hotel, Anaheim locations and found them to be very friendly, helpful and happy "WE chose them". Is this just a Florida thing? Anyway, the cruise price is a joke. We are suppose to be getting this great DVC rate(?) and then DCL tells us because we use points we can't take advantage of credits that are available to cash payers? Like I said, little or no perks. In this case even a penalty... However, the villas fit our family of 5 comfortably, I like the 2 bedroom, the pool at the Beach Club is AWESOME and the transportation was great. Feel free to delete this post if you feel it's too negative - I expect nothing more from Disney brainwashers. One final note, I DO love the Mouse. :p

[teri]

In this thread, a few people have crossed the line into argumentative and sarcastic remarks about other posters on this Board and our volunteer Moderators. That isn't appropriate here. Discussions and differences of opinion are quite acceptable, always have been, as long as they don't devolve into debates or fights. Please, folks, be nice to each other. That goes for all sides! :) Thank you!

DIS Posting Guidelines for your review (http://www.wdwinfo.com/guidelines.htm)

[ron7654]

Kudos to those of you who typed negative comments, most notably dvcdave. Having purchased OKW a year ago, i also fear an erosion of "perks". And while I have enjoyed my purchase, I do not want my options to dwindle. It does concern me that the AKL pool is "off limits" and i truly believe you will see Storm along Bay disappaer as well. Unless DVC'ers show a united front in resisting take backs, we will all suffer the consequences. Negative comments can only help to make this forum and our experiences better, not worse. By staying on top of things and keeping Disney in check we can all be sure to get our fair share of the mouse! Keep 'em comming and keep open minds.:bounce: :bounce::jester: :bounce: :bounce:

[JonHM]

First of all, Disney does not run this board, and who knows if anyone at Disney even reads this board. So negative comments posted all over this board are not any sort of 'wake up call' to Disney. It IS important for complaints to be brought to Disney's attention, but that is best done by contacting Member Services.

I absolutely agree that negative comments CAN be as useful and informative (if not moreso) as positive comments, BUT the sentiment of 'keep an open mind' should be extended to the advocates of negative comments as well.

[JonHM]

WDW has changed over the last 20 years. It is not the place it once was. I would consider the direction it is going in as well as any of the DVC situations first.

You are absolutely correct, WDW is a *completely* different place than it was in 1981. NOW we have

Epcot
MGM Studios
The Boardwalk
Splash Mountain
Animal Kingdom
DVC
The Grand Floridian
OKW
VWL
Downtown Disney

It SURE is a different place than it was 20 years ago - for the better! I used to come to WDW in the '70s, and I think WDW today is a much richer experience than it *ever* was 20+ years ago. Oh well, that's what makes horseracing!

[KLR-wlv]

In DVCDave's defense - and this is relevant to the original post - as a new member - I am also concerned. Through the 90's - the majority of DVC's existence - the economy was great. Now that things are turning south, it's a bit disconcerting to see Disney's response to the bad economy. We bought VWL after staying there and loving it in 2000. When we returned in 2001 on points, we found the boat service had been combined with FW. This meant having to wait for 2 boats since 1 was full in the morning, and a HUGE wait after the MK parade one night. I didn't understand why, in ADDING rooms to WL, they decreased boat service - a major selling point of that resort IMO.

There have been numerous LITTLE things, which just don't make sense - other than a blanket move to save money. So, if you haven't bought, I would say - wait and see how things pan out. Let's see how Disney handles another year of a bad economy. (if that is what happens) More lay offs would mean perhaps more incidents of incompetent or poorly trained or disgruntled CM's (and the great CM's are the major reason that Disney is such a great place to visit). Less workers means a dirtier park, etc... As a new member, I haven't been around for the better times of the program - just the cutbacks. I really am a Disney freak by the way - which is why I'm probably MORE upset at seeing something that worked so well (the whole park in general) be jeopardized by some suits trying to please stockholders (who haven't been pleased for years by the way).

I think because most people on this board love Disney more than the average person, these moves are taken as personal attacks on them and their loyalty - myself included. And with the DVC, it isn't just your faith in Disney on the line - it's your money too - so people are going to be even more "touchy". I think it is good to be objective about this. Jefferson said something like "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and we could change that to the price of "flexibility" perhaps... I'm glad people get enraged when there are "changes" because I know DVC reads these boards. So don't fix what ain't broke!

KLR

[JonHM]

I still think it is very important for ANYONE who is upset about anything relating to DVC to not *just* post their complaints here, but to e-mail or call Member Services about it as well. I do not share your confidence that decision makers at DVC regularly read here. (Although I certainly HOPE that they do... :) )

Regarding the changes due to the downturn in the economy, I don't think that Disney is happy about those kind of changes (such as the boat service), and that as soon as the economy rebounds again, I am sure that they will start restoring service to the level it should be. Unfortunately, these kinds of cutbacks are happening all over the US right now. I am just glad that Disney is (seemingly) strong enough to ride it out. Quite a lot of very large and well established companies have taken quite a hit lately)

[Joeblack]

JohnHM:

Disney does not run these forums, but the DIS forums are BY FAR the largest and most active Disney forums in the web. I would bet anything that Disney does monitor these boards and are kicking themselves in the butt for not coming up with their own boards when they should have. Maybe they are waiting for webmaster Pete to quote his price (I really hope that doesn't happen).

I agree that members should email MS or whoever "the powers that be" are about things they are concerned about or feel affected by, but don't underestimate the power of the web these days. Many educated consumers of all ages go to the web for all kinds of advice before taking the plunge in a timeshare or any other big investment. I know I did, and I also believe that the DIS are responsible to a degree for the huge success of the DVC the last 2 years.

Having said that, I will just tell the original poster that he should consider all things, but do it quickly before DVC runs out of stock (pssst..I think your only regret will be not having bought sooner).

[pluvc1993]

Wow I just had to add how comical this is that one post was stopped but somehow it managed to be reincarnated in some other fashion. Again I like to commend those who have the determination to voice their opinions despite the negative feedback. I think we should have a chat night on this topic. I also think that we should have Doc as our moderator because he seems to be very informed as well as a asset to this board and would probably be a fair mediator. Maybe we should start a message board to name this chat night. lol
Doc please e-mail me if this is all possible. ( I think some people need some serious venting.) lol:)

[teri]

Disney CMs do read these boards... there are several Disney CMs who are regular posters and readers here. However, this is an unofficial site run by folks who like Disney travel and are interested in creating even better Disney vacations for their families and friends. Venting *at* other posters or at the moderators is pointless and unpleasant. Venting in chat is like throwing your ideas into the wind... If you are upset with DVC, you should be writing to DVC. yes they read this, but they are not responsible for doing anything about what they read here. They ARE responsible for doing something about letters directed to them.

There have been cutbacks. There have been layoffs of long-term employees who had given their all. The economy has gone south for the time being, sales are soft. If that means I lose a few perks or can't go on the cruise (which has absolutely no appeal to me anyway) or have to take my own shampoo, or salt and pepper -- big deal! The heart of the program is still there -- the DVC resorts themselves. They are just what many families want and need. If we have to ride out some lean times during this economic slowdown, at least we can do it onsite. :D

[Synonymous]

I understood the boat problem at WL to be the result of a construction error regarding some new docks, and that it would be temporary.

Whether that's correct or not (I remember it being thoroughly hashed out a few months ago) isn't this discussion (where it has drifted, rather than the initial topic) a little premature? All of the horrible things things that are supposedly limiting our flexibility and reducing our value are speculation, at this point. (I don't see the lack of pool-hopping at AKL as a reduction, since there WAS no AKL until this April.)

The fact that we all care so passionately about WDW and DVC, along with the lack of real information and the fact that many of us (glancing guiltily to the left at my own rather large number of posts) spend way too much time on this board leads rumours to grow way out of proportion. Someone dreams up some idea out of nowhere about what "is going to happen" and, after several threads and a couple of month's time, it's accepted as fact.

Look at "DVC II." There is no reason, beyond guesswork, to believe in such a thing. But it's pretty much accepted as canon around here because it gets talked about so much.

I'm discouraged by the number of times I hear people talk about "when pool-hopping is taken away" as a foregone conclusion or about how you can't possibly get reservations unless you call right at your 11-month window (perhaps because of people renting points on E-Bay). These things aren't true, but now we see people deciding not to buy into DVC because they are fed these rumours as facts.

I think that's sad.

Those of us who have been around this board for awhile know to take things in context, and perhaps with a grain of salt. But "newbies" contemplating a major purchase have no way to put these comments in perspective.

I certainly would not imply that negative comments shouldn't be posted (especially when they were specifically requested.) But could we talk about real experiences, rather than guesses and speculations?

[pluvc1993]

Teri you took our entry totally out of context! It was meant to be lighthearted and add a sense of humor and understanding. Venting whether you choose to believe it or not leads to greater understanding and less animosity. The way to changes and improvement are by showing all sides of the coin. It is obvious that there is a general upset factor on these boards. My general idea was only to bring a little humor and show its not so serious at all. I brought Doc up as a suggestion because he seems to be a fair well mannered moderator who remains neutral and from what I've seen seems to know his FACTS. . Venting *at* other posters or at the moderators is pointless and unpleasant. Venting in chat is like throwing your ideas into the wind...
Contrar to this statement venting is a way to set aside misunderstandings, rumors and contrary beliefs and bring them to a forum to discuss. People tend to interpret some of these posts wrong. Throwing ideas in the wind is I think a great thing. I believe it would also clear up most of the animosity these boards have been creating lately
And if you still feel that you need to speak up with DVC itself you may come out of it better informed with facts to back your statement.

[teri]

Just to clarify... My comments were not directed at any single individual's post. For comments to an individual, I use PMs and eMail. :) I was expressing my opinion about an idea, which of course is allowed in this forum.

The webmasters of this site decided a long time ago that these boards would not be the rallying point behind movements or boycotts or campaigns to challenge any aspect of Disney policy. Your individual experiences and concerns about policy or service changes really should be directed to DVC, once you have identified a problem.

A long time ago I learned something very important about organizational change -- all the jumble of facts and high emotional tone will just bounce off the surface of administrators and bureaucrats, they are inured to such comments. You really do have to demonstrate how your individual experience has been impacted by their policy and how it affects their operation. That way, instead of becoming a reactive, PR issue it becomes a proactive operational issue which they must address. :)

[DVCDAVE]

Quote ; (I don't see the lack of pool-hopping at AKL as a reduction, since there WAS no AKL until this April.)

Using the same logic I could only guess that if Disney decided not to allow you to exchange in to VWL, BCV or VEP you would be complacent and accept that too. After all, the legal documents does allow them to NOT add new resorts, including DVCs to the program.

I however feel that even if it is in Disney's legal right to restrict, or take away perks and privlages, I don't have to sit down and be a quiet compalcent little mouse. I too agree about some of the speculation that goes on here, however on this matter we already have heard from a number of DVCer's experiences, AND some confirmation from DOC that a new schedule is coming this week. Among the recent speculation that is going on is that DVC is somehow losing $ on theses DC exchanges, and seeing the old schedule is 10 years old, they MUST have been losing for 10 years and did nothing about it. WHERE IS THE PROOF !

What we DO know about $ is that we will be getting a totally new Member Guidebook, and we apparently will be getting them every year. Apparently, DOC confirmed that directly with MS. How ironic that they are so concerned about $ in one area, yet are free to go hog wild in another area which no one has compalined about. At 50,000+ members, and taking a wild guess that the new book runs $20 with shipping and printing, thats $1MM+ per year !

[pluvc1993]

Just to clarify... My comments were not directed at any single individual's post
I tend to disagree with this since posted on your replyVenting *at* other posters or at the moderators is pointless and unpleasant. Venting in chat is like throwing your ideas into the wind...
Which was directly taken from my personal post( I think some people need some serious venting.) lol

AlsoThe webmasters of this site decided a long time ago that these boards would not be the rallying point behind movements or boycotts or campaigns to challenge any aspect of Disney policy.
What does this mean? Again this comment is implying that I specifically mentioned some sort of movement. Your quote states;If you are upset with DVC, you should be writing to DVC. yes they read this, but they are not responsible for doing anything about what they read here. They ARE responsible for doing something about letters directed to them.
Which does in FACT imply a movement. I was however expressing an idea that I thought would be helpful. Remember we are all entitled to our opinions without being personally ATTACKED. In no way form or fashion did I break any rules pertained to this board as per their posting guidelines.

[raidermatt]

I however feel that even if it is in Disney's legal right to restrict, or take away perks and privlages, I don't have to sit down and be a quiet compalcent little mouse.

The problem with this statement is that the implication is if someone still recommends somebody purchase, they are a "quiet complacent little mouse". (Remember, the context of the original post was why should I not purchase, not what's wrong with DVC).

If someone does not consider pool hopping at AKL to be a benefit they will use, it means nothing to them. Same with the Disney Collection. Its fine to point out the changes in these programs, but it should be qualified with a statment that if you won't be needing these programs, it doesn't matter. Purchasing based on non-guaranteed programs is risky anyway.

Really, the advice to purchase or not purchase should not have changed much in the last year. Certain things are guaranteed in our legal documents, and if that is not enough to justify a purchase, the buyer will be taking a risk.

If we are not happy with DVC programs, but have chosen not to sell because of them, we should be giving those opinions to DVC, and starting another thread to specifically discuss those concerns.

[DVCDAVE]

Quote; The problem with this statement is that the implication is if someone still recommends somebody purchase, they are a "quiet complacent little mouse".

Excuse me, but I did not imply anything to anyone other than myself. Further, even if you want to take it out of context the last I knew the words 'quiet, and complacent' are not insults, they are adjectives meaning;

From Websters NewWorld Dictionary, 2nd College Edition:

com-pla-cent; adj. to be very pleasing, to please 1) satisfied, self satisfied 2) affable

qui-et; adj. to keep quiet 1)still, calm motionless 2) not making noise; hushed, not speaking, silent 3) not agitated, as in motion

[JonHM]

Hi Dave-

I don't think that anybody has any problem with you being upset, or with you complaining about what upsets you. What is upsetting to me, however, is the same thing that I think concerned Synonymous: that when negative posts are made WITHOUT being backed up by explanation or facts, they could turn off prospective DVC members who do not understand the context of the comments.

Just as an example, this thread was started with someone saying they were about to buy in, tell them why they shouldn't. As someone else said, they weren't asking, 'What is wrong with DVC?', but should THEY buy in to DVC. The first few posts were very informative and helpful, giving guidelines as to who might be good candidates for DVC, and who might not. But while you have made some very valid arguments later on in this thread, here was your first posting on this thread:

If you don't like being lied to, don't join. Disney relies on it's pristine reputation to suck you in to believing they won't, or can't do no wrong, then they steal benefits and perks away from you. I bought a year ago, now I feel like the biggest sucker in town.

That's it. No further explanation of what you mean by 'stealing' or 'lying' - just that. Well, Dave, what upset some of us is that that kind of a post - negative without explanation or anything to back it up - could sour a prospective DVC member who WOULD be a good candidate for DVC, before they get a chance to fully research it. Now, NONE of us want people to buy in without making sure that it is right for them; we'd certainly rather have people decide in advance that it's not right for them and not buy, like sgtpet, rather than buy in too quickly and then become unhappy members. But posts like the one quoted above could cause people for whom DVC would be perfect to just get afraid and dismiss it.

Now I am NOT telling you not to post criticism, either of Disney in general, or of DVC itself. But I know that I would really, really appreciate it if when you're going to post something negative, you fully explain yourself and lay out what you're upset about and why. General posts accusing Disney of 'lying' and 'stealing', without further explanation are not productive in any way.

To repeat myself, *later* in the thread you did lay out your arguments in very good detail, but for someone just looking into DVC for the first time, that may have been too little, too late. They may have already been scared off.

By the way, Dave, I *certainly* hope that you are voicing your complaints and concerns directly to member relations. They should definitely be aware when one of their members is as upset as you are with them. Sorry about the long post. Thanks for listening.

[DVCDAVE]

JONHM,

Maybe you have a point about my first post. So, I just deleted it. I have been trying to call MS almost a week now, but can't get through in a reasonable amount of time. This AM I was on hold for 35 minutes. I have sent two emails, in the last 4 days, no reply yet. It could well be that they are hearing a lot of 'vents' from other members not posting on this board. The day prior to this news breaking I called MS to add on a day to our March stay, it was a Monday morning, and was on hold less than 5 minutes.

Sorry if I scared someone off, I doubt I did, as the decision making process is to deep to rely on just one persons opinion.

[JonHM]

Thanks. Definitely hang in there and keep trying to get ahold of them. I wrote yesterday to them about something else and have still not heard back yet. Hopefully that does mean that everyone that is unhappy is letting them know. That is definitely our best way to protect ourselves. Take Care.

[Synonymous]

Dave, I considered complaints about the new DC point schedule to be speculation because we have only very limited, anecdotal evidence, about what is going to happen. According to Doc (and I don't know where he got this info, either) some choices for DC will go down in points. We really don't know much of anything at this point. Soon (hopefully) we will, and then it will be possible to have an informed discussion of the subject.

[DVCDAVE]

I've stated my case as best as I can for the time being, concerning DC. I have been very sincere in my expectations on that facet of the DVC program. This family has used it, and wants it to continue in an affordable manner. We are not at all able to vacation during the slow times as some members may be. Given that we bought 275 points each at BWV and VWL in order to enjoy a generous amount of days during 'magic season'. Our plan has been to bank and alternate years among the two resorts.

Again, my family has always viewed DC as an affordable safety net. In terms of flexibility, while you (or some members) feel that they ONLY wish to stay in DVC resorts, that is fine. But be honest with yourselves in the sense that any tightening of points in DC will add preasure to the DVC resorts, making the 11 month window even more important. Given that scenario, the 7 month booking window at non-home resorts will become more of a gamble. Hence, 'flexibility' becomes more compromised through out the DVC program. Yes, Yes, I understand that a member can still travel when he or she wants, but be honest with yourself and understand that 'flexibility' is a broad defintition covering a spectrum of options for all members, not just one narrowly defined measurement of its use.

All these perks and privlages benefit some member(s) of our DVC family. My family has little or no interest in pool hopping, and only a modest interest in DCL. However, I will fight to protect all these options, as all members should. Sooner or later Disney will come a hunting for your favorite perk if we just sit quietly by letting them take'm one by one. Disney isn't stupid, they realize too , that word of mouth is a powerful weapon to be used against them.

I don't accept the 'excuse' being tossed around about exchanges in to DC are costing DVC too much money. Disney hasn't even hinted at that in the past, and has a long standing schedule of points that it has used for over 10 years. IF, that schedule was deemed unprofitable it would have been discarded by the Disney bean counters long ago. I am not nieve enough to give this excuse serious consideration. In fact, as a shareholder too, I respect Disney's accountants too much to believe they would let something so unprofitable go for so long unchecked.

If you need to be convinced as to what fears Disney has, you may want to pick up the recently published book "Married to the Mouse". There is a chapter at the end of the book that deals with Disney's town of Celebration. Things are so bad their amongst the homeowners, and Disney is so paranoid, that they have been buying back some of the houses from unhappy homeowners, in exchange for the homeowners silence about their unpleasant experience.

[raidermatt]

Dave- Thanks for the definitions. That was very helpful.

I stand by my statement that "quiet complacent little mouse" had negative connotations.

HOWEVER, if you say you did not mean to imply that those who choose to do nothing are quiet complacent little mice, I will take you on your word. My apologies.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the recent changes are a negative. In fact, I pretty much agree completely with your last post. EXCEPT that it is not automatically a reason for someone not to join. If they feel like I do, that DVC is still worth it even without the perks, then why shouldn't they join? Its good to give them the facts, and to express your opinion about the possible implicatons of those facts. Its just that some of your statements went too far, particularly in the post you deleted. (I know, since its deleted, its not really fair to bring it up, but it was still there when I originally commented to you)

Hope you understand where I'm coming from.

[JonHM]

Excellent post. By the way, isn't Celebration on some of the WDW land? How many years do you think it'll be before they bulldoze it to put in another park or resort? :-)

Matt : Very well said.

[DVCDAVE]

Quote; I stand by my statement that "quiet complacent little mouse" had negative connotations.

RAIDERMATT, I accept the apology, but you do not have to accept my explanation. Instead, take me for my written word in my prior post; "I don't have to be a quiet complacent little mouse" If there is a negative slant, well......I don't see it directed at any party other than me. At worst it is a pun; the lowest form of humor (mouse-mickey mouse), for that I am guilty as charged ;)

Enough said on the above matter.

Further, I do understand where you are coming from, along with others of your view point. That is why I deleted the post that caused the problem. Hopefully, you too can see my arguement on how the DC changes will affect the entire DVC program. If you do, then I made my case and point and I'll leave it at that.

[DVCDAVE]

JONHM; I don't want to go on in detail about Clebration here as it is off the topic of this thread, and doesn't pertain to DVC, and this is a DVC Board.

Celabration is on DIsney's land and is in Osceola County. As you may know virtually all of the parks and resorts are in Orange county. Disney origianlly put cattle on the land so that it was taxed as farm land. Osceola County preasured Disney for years to develope the land as they felt that they were stuck with the infrastructue bills for Disney, yet collected liitle revenue. Finally in 1989 Osceola County revoked the agraculture status of the land, forcing Disney to pay up. Further, many FLA politicians were scrutinizing the promise that Disney made in 1967 in order to obtain the soverinty of Reedy Creek Improvement District from the FLA Legislature (read EPCOT, a Future Community in which people live, work, and play), which never realy materialized.

In any case, I recomend the book, it reads in about 4 1/2 hours, and gives great insight on how Disney obtained the land, and its relationships with the local counties.

[mickeyinjune]

we thought about purchasing but just couln't part with the money.

based on last year when we went through the presentation, I figured for us(2 adults and 2 pre teens one boy one girl) to be happy we would want 306 points to stay at BWV in a 2 bdr for a week.( the kids would not sleep together on the pull out couch in the 1 bdrm) It would of costed $67 a point/$20,502. divide this by how many years were left 42=$488approx. plus annual dues of $1205 divided by 7 days it would cost us $241.85 a night. This just seemed to high.

This year we stayed at the ASMU for $49 a night got two rooms.(granted there was no refrige. but we eat usually eat breakfast in the room snack during the day and dinner out)

[JonHM]

If you are perfectly happy with the AS resorts, then DVC may not be for you. Your analysis is admirable and thorough, but there are a few quick points I'd like to make:

A) For DVC, since it lasts another 40 years, you're thinking a little bit too much in the here and now. Granted, $242/night is quite a lot right now (especially when you can get AS so cheap), but it's locked in and relatively inflation proof. I may be wrong, but my guess is that $242 for these kind of accomodations will be pretty darned good in 10 years, and *unbelievable* in 20 years. I think you have to analyze your desire/need for it for the entire life of DVC, not just what it would cost you right now. I look at it in terms of buying a car: the cost is in that ballpark, and after 10 years, many cars are long since retired. But with the investment of DVC, in 10 years I will still have 31 years left of fantastic vacations merely for the cost of annual dues.

B) Your analysis for how many points you need to be happy may be a little high. Friday nights and Saturday nights are astronomically higher in points than Sunday through Thursday nights, so you can always show up on a Friday, pay your low rate at All Stars for Friday and Saturday, then transfer to DVC accomodations for Sunday through Thursday nights, and you would have spent a LOT less points that way. Also, if when your kids are older, you have more flexibility to take some trips at times of year when nights cost fewer points/night, your future trips could go a LOT further on your points.

I'm not disputing your decision. If you are perfectly happy staying in AS, then DVC probably isn't right for you right now. Just wanted to point those few things out. Thanks! Take care.

[Lhargus]

__________________________________________________ __But be honest with yourselves in the sense that any tightening of points in DC will add preasure to the DVC resorts, making the 11 month window even more important. Given that scenario, the 7 month booking window at non-home resorts will become more of a gamble. Hence, 'flexibility' becomes more compromised through out the DVC program.
__________________________________________________ __

In reference to the above quote, I was of the understanding that when trading out to a DC hotel the points were no longer part of member inventory but become developer inventory. If that is the case there should be no additional pressure on availability at DVC resorts for members whether you use your points at DVC or DC.

Maybe I'm confused?

[DVCDAVE]

LHARGUS, You are correct. Once points are traded for a DC property, they cannot be used for DVC, and can only be used for a DC resort. You may be confused though, or I may not have made my point clear.

If Disney jacks up the points required for DC exchanges, then fewer people will opt for a DC exchanges. If fewer people opt becuause of the expense in points (simple economics), then those members will stay inside DVC adding demand preasures. Hence our 11 month booking windows even more important to us.

My point about the 7 month booking window being a gamble may be wrong. I just recently learned of a strategy this morning in which I was unaware of. In another thread posted on this board, PAMOKW posted that some members book at 11 months in their home resort, then at the 7 month window SWITCH and exchange in to another DVC resort. Again, I was unaware of this strategy, and complemented the poster on bringing it to my attention.

[Synonymous]

I don't see how people staying at DVC rather than DC decreases room availability. If we use our points for an option other than DC, it frees up the DVC management to sell cash ressies for that number of points, doesn't it? It doesn't mean that the room sits idle for that period of time. Occupancy (assuming perfect market efficiency) remains identical.

[tedhowe]

Dave,

I thought I understood what you were getting at with the impact on room availability, but I don' t quite get it.

Can you illustrate your ideas on room availability with some hypothetical numbers?

If it costs 50 points a night for a given DC room today, and a member chooses to make that exchange, then DVC has 50 points of room availability to sell for cash through CRO (or whatever).

If the same room is now 150 points, and the member chooses to make the exchange, then DVC has 150 points of room availability to sell for cash.

If the member does not want to make the exchange, then they will use them within the DVC resorts, using the same 150 points.

Where is the difference.

I'm not trying to be difficult, because this point that you raise is one of the first true concerns that *I* have about the DC price increase (my wife and I have no iterest in staying at the DC choices in Orlando and our schedules usually let us take full advantage of the DVC resorts without needing the additional "safety net" of the DC).

I will say this, though: I don't think any changes to the DC program will have any SIGNIFICANT impact on the availability of DVC rooms.

We don't have real numbers, but I'll try to make some guesses about that sound reasonable to me:

What percentage of DVC points are used for DC exchanges annually? My guess is that it is less than 5%

What percentage of people who currently use DC will choose to stop if prices go up an average of 200%? I'll use the 80/20 rule and say that 80% of those people will stop using DC.

What is the impact of this on the percentage of points used in DC?

80% of the 5% would stop, but the other 1% would go up to 3%

so that would be 2% more points being used by members in DVC resorts than are used today.

I still don't know that this is any different than DVC selling the room nights for cash, but while it is an increase, I don't think that it is going to have a significant impact on availability.

Ted

[JonHM]

Oh yes, that seems to be one of the most frequently used methods. You book your home resort for what you want at 11 mo., then call right at 7 mo. and try to get what you want at the other resort. If it's available, you just switch your ressies. If it's not, you get right on the waitlist for what you want. I know that the waitlist doesn't work out for *everyone*, but I *think* that it works out for many, many people, particularly ones who get on the list right at the 7 mo. point. Of course, it also depends what you need. Something like a Grand Villa or an extraordinarily long stay might be harder to get off of the wait list. But then, there is *also* further flexibility in using this method:

You can call day by day, meaning exactly seven months from each individual day that you need, and then just link them together.

You can also, when on the waitlist, let them know if they want to give you individual days from the range you have requested, or only make the reservation for you if all of the days you want come open. This leads some people to split some trips between two DVC resorts. Again, if you're working very close to the 11 and 7 month windows, you should have a much easier time than if you're trying to book later on.

If you want to find out more on this, do a search on 'wait list' or 'waiting list' - there have been many threads on the different methods used to secure the reservations that you want.

:bounce:

[DVCDAVE]

TEDHOWE, SYNONUMUS et. al.,

My understanding has been that CRO does not get the rooms unless the room is not booked 60 days out. The way prior posts (in another thread) described the way exchanges in to DC works was is differant (some sort of cash exchange based on discounted rack rate). I have not heard of this method before. Are you sure what you are describing is correct, and if so what type of booking window does CRO enjoy? If this is described in our documents, I either didn't understand it, or missed it completely.

[DVCDAVE]

Thank You JONHM, I didn't know about this method until this AM when PAMOKW posted it in another thread. I understand now, and it also releaves some of the anxiety I have had recently.