My pet peeves

[lisapooh]

I have to big pet peeves that I face all the time.

The first is people who aren't watching where they are walking. Twice this trip I had people run into me from the side. One in the MK almost tipped my wheelchair over. I was lucky enough to be able to shift my weight and right the chair or I would have been seriously hurt and my arm would have been pinned under the armrest. No apology just a curt he didn't see you. Geez look where you are going. As it was I ended up in pain for the night and it killed E-ride for me and any rough rides for the rest of the trip. Second time the person did apologize.

Second is mothers who take over the handicap stalls with their broods. When I need to go I don't have all that much a leeway before I wet myself. It takes time to manuever with my canes from the wheelchair with the canes into a standard stall with no grab bars to steady myself and do the necessary things to use the toilet. I wish it didn't. I'm tired of having to carry several changes of clothing and washing damp smelly clothes because there is never a handicapped stall available. This is do true at Disney with the large number of of families around. Whatever happened to mother standing outside the stall and allowing their child to use the toilet then helping them. I've even had mothers swoop around me and my wheelchair and grab the handicapped stall first.

Thanks for letting me vent.

[Wheelsie]

You tell it sis....HERE HERE!! :)

[Andrew Bichard]

LisaPooh,

I would like to second your two peeves, and briefly add a third. - People who fill in the gap in front of your wheelchair or scooter, the gap you have carefully left to avoid running into the ankles of those in front.

I would like to add to your second point, mis-use of 'disabled' stalls. I have a similar problem to yours, and from what I have read, apparently 80% of mobility disabled have the same problem to a lesser or greater extent. Unfortunately, we are too embarrased to mention it. Basically, when muscles are weak enough to cause difficulty walking, muscles in the pelvic floor (bladder control) are weak too. Like you, when I want to go, I want to go NOW. (Maybe not quite as soon since I have been taking oxybutynin, but fairly soon). I certainly cannot wait indefinitely.

I have heard it argued that 'disabled' stalls are not for the exclusive use of the disabled and that the disabled should wait in line like everyone else. This misses the point that the disabled cannot 'hang on' as long.

The problem is just as great in the mens' room where some men seem to like the extra space to sit and read in comfort.


A special peeve of mine is when cleaning staff lock the disabled stall because it is blocked, but don't leave a notice on the door so I sit outside waiting. And wait, and wait, and wait .....

and finally make a high speed dash from Morroco, through France

Andrew to the International Gateway

[SueM in MN]

Boy do I agree with those pet peaves.
We had one experience a few years ago when a mother purposely told her kids to "get in that stall before the girl in the wheelchair can get there". She sent 2 of her kids into the handicapped stall. The kids tried to argue with her because they saw us, but the mom told them to just be quiet and get in so they wouldn't miss the parade. She took another 2 stalls for herself and her other child. About 30 seconds later, 3 stalls opened up. By the time her kids finally got out of the handicapped stall, we had let about 10 people around us. most of them were polite and asked if we wanted to use the toilet since we were next in line. Each time, I loudly said, "No, the only stall we can use is the handicapped stall and it's occupied." I don't think it phased the mom, but the kids tried to apologize when they came out.
The "out of service" stall is also a big problem. Since there is usually only one handicapped stall per bathroom, that means it's totally inaccessible. Fixing that stall should be a priority. The other thing that makes me mad is people who trash the handicapped stall and then leave it a mess. If it is an able bodied person, shame on them. If it is a person with a disability who made a mess they can't clean up (maybe because they were delayed getting into the bathroopm), there should be some way to contact the cleaning people.

[lisapooh]

I agree that if the stall is messed up someone should let the proper people know. Sometimes I think the person may be too embarassed unfortunately. But it is just a courtesy and I doubt a word would be said except thank you for letting us know.

[Figaro]

It doesn't always work (smile), but I have found that explaining my situation to the people who are waiting in line usually means that I am invited by the people at the front of the line to go ahead of them. It is probably just luck of the draw, but I have found most people want to be helpful. They just aren't quite sure what or how to be helpful, and I have learned that asking people for assistance (and telling them exactly what kind of assistance I need) usually works out quite well for me.

Not that there aren't rude people in the world (sigh), but I have found so many pleasant, kind and helpful people, especially at Disney World. I have been struggling lately with too many internal "not fair" grumbles about my life, and have only recently begun to answer myself by reminding myself of my many, many blessings, including an extra trip to Disney World that I didn't expect!

[mhopset]

I agree totally about the restroom thing. I was so mad at work one day, because housekeeping was "cleaning" the handicap stall. Actually he was sitting there taking a BREAK.
(i looked through the crack LOL) I told him if he didn't get out of there I was going to S--T on the floor. (I was having a bad day anyway) He wasn't to long in coming out of there!!!!

One good thing about WDW is the family assisted restrooms. I believe there are a list of them in the "guide for disabilities" book you can get from guest services.

One other thing is I hate when the sink is not in the same room with the toilet and bathtub. I hate that. Also why are there not any handicaped rooms in the Toy Story Section of ASMo?

[SueM in MN]

Those family/assistant restrooms are very nice. They are actually the only ones in MK and most of Epcot where you can get a wheelchair in the stall with you. The Family/assistant restrooms are listed in the Guidebook for Guests with Disabilities for each park.

[Jaimee]

Lisapooh, I just wanted to thank you for your post. I try to read a little bit on each board when I have time and I have learned a lot on this board. I want to admit to being guilty of your second pet peeve. Although I would never dream of pushing anyone out of the way to get there, I have used the handicaped stall to take my 3 yr old to the bathroom. My reasoning was if it's open, we should be able to use it. I never thought about anyone coming in to the restroom with an emergency and having to wait for us to finish up. The only reason I use it is DS is just potty trained and needs help yet in the stall, the regular ones are usually too small for both of us to fit in, so if there was no "family stall" available I would use the handicapped one. I again want to thank you for enlightening me, I will keep this in mind in the future!!!!!!

[JudithM]

A few times last week while I was in the ECV, I came right out & made comments to guests like "If you take another step sideways without looking, you're going to get hurt when you get run over!" or "Watch where you're going or you're going to get hurt!" My husband & I observed many adults who look over guests in wheelchairs or ECVs & don't see us.

As for handicapped rest rooms - due to my knee condition, which isn't always obvious, I use the handicapped stall. The toilet is higher, & I don't have to bend my knees as much. So if you were to see me walk into the stall you would think I was taking it away from someone who really needs it. The friend with us last week recently had knee surgery & she found the family/attendant rest room at the Poly. How nice to have so much room! If I were by myself, I would especially like it so I didn't have to leave my "stuff" unattended in the ECV.

[The Hunt]

Are handicapped accessible stalls in restrooms intended for the exclusive use of the disabled? If they are, why aren't they labelled that way (as parking spaces are)? I'm genuinely curious. I have to confess that although I don't need to use one, I prefer those stalls because they are larger, and the toilet is usually set higher off the floor. I have no problem with the idea that a disabled person should go to the head of the line, but should non-disabled people never use that stall at all?

[Andrew Bichard]

Hunt,

I am not certain what the absolute rule is. I don't think its a matter of whether anyone is going to give you a ticket or not. I suspect that it is just that the architects that design toilet stalls, have never actually thought of this one and as a result havn't put up signs.

All I can say, is that I often go into a mens room and find that all the stalls except one are empty, and that one is the oly one I can get into. I also find that the occupant has settled in for a while. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I have, on ocassion, had to leave that mens' room and rush, in some discomfort, to find another.

In my opinion, it would be curtious if the non-disabled left the disabled stall free unless all other stalls were occupied. The non-disabled should certainly think twice about using the disabled stall if they intend to occupy it for any extended period of time.

Andrew

[SueM in MN]

I agree with you Andrew. I have often come into the restroom with my DD and found the only stall that is occupied is the onely one we can use.
I don't havew a problem with people using it if they have some need for the extra room in the stall, or the higher seat or the grab bars. They are in there to use if someone needs them.
My FIL has bad knees and hips and could really benefit from it, but he won't use it because he says it's just for "handicapped people", nnot ones with bad knees.
My request is for people to not use it unless they need those features or at least to use it and get out as soon as possible.
We have waitied for the handicapped stall when there were:
2 teens using it as a dressing room to try on new clothes
a mom and her DD who were in one of the stall with a sink. They both fixed their hair and the mom was re-touching her makeup while we waited outside.
Sometimes very polite people will see us behind them and let us by. That helps everyone since we get the stall we need, the people letting us ahead usually only have to wait a few extra seconds and no one has to try to get by us in the narrow waiting area.

[lisapooh]

Handicapped stalls are marked with the standard symbol, Hunt. It is the handicapped icon. It should be used by those who have physical handicaps that require the raised toilet, the grab bars and larger area to use the restroom. It shouldn't be used as a dressing room or a place to fix your makeup or even as a place to keep your little ones while you use the toilet.
I haven't been handicapped enough to use the handicapped restroom until about 5 years ago. When my children were small I would never use the handicapped stall to take care of my kids needs. I set them on the toilet and then stood at the door until they were finished. I really have a problem with parents who claim that there 3 and 4 year old children must be in a stall with them and cannot toilet themselves. Our special ed kids are taught to use the restroom on their own with the teacher outside the door to help if needed. If these kids can do it (I'm not talking about the diapered ones btw) then why can't a perfectly normal child? Geez.
Btw mom's are taking boys up to around 10 to the ladies room now on the premise that it is too dangerous to allow them to go to the bathroom by themselves. Methinks these women are paranoid.

[BuckeyeBelle]

I've noticed a lot of restrooms now have the diaper deck in the handicap accessible stall as well. (Not WDW thankfully)

[Kay1]

My son is 10 and I have to bring him into the ladies' room because of his autism. It's embarassing, but he really can't see anything through the stalls. I use the disabled stalls sometimes and often say in a loud voice, Come on, let's go to the disabled potty, because I can see women and girls looking at us and that's my way of explaining what's going on. Too, no one stares at him while he's washing his hands. That being said, if I saw anyone with a wheelchair in the bathroom, I would defer to them. Hope I'm not getting off track, but I wish they were all family bathrooms. They are so perfect for all people to use.

[lisapooh]

Kay1 you have a special kid. I'm talking about perfectly normal children. Autistic kids are different. Actually since I work with them frequently I can ususally spot them at the park. JUst certain manerisms and traits that stick out of you work with this group. Btw I love them. Most are sweeties most of the time if they know you.

[The Hunt]

I certainly agree that one should defer to a disabled person who is waiting for the stall. But in many restrooms, the disabled stall is one of only two or three stalls. It's not like a parking lot where there are many unrestricted spaces. Can it really be that it is intended for use only by the disabled? Or is it more akin to bus seats that indicate they should be given up to people who need them?

I'm not talking about somebody using it for a long time to change clothes or fix their hair or whatever--they shouldn't do that in any stall. As far as people taking their kids in there, I certainly understand why they want to do it. I can also see why it would be unreasonable for a disabled person to have to wait behind a whole line of people who are doing this. Would it be a reasonable approach if everyone agreed that the disabled person goes to the head of the line?

[SueM in MN]

Kay1, you have a need to be in the stall with your child and I think everyone can understand what problems you would have just letting him into the stall by himself. (I've read enough posts about kids who are fascinated with toilet water to know some kids need supervision). If you don't have a copy of the Guidebook for Guests with Disabilities for each park, you should pick one up. They list the family restrooms in each park. Those would probably be more comfortable for you and your son to use. Unfortunately, they don't have enough of them. and at Epcot and MK they are the only fully accessible stalls.
I have noticed that in bathrooms with a lot of stalls, the handicapped stall is usually (but not always) marked with the wheelchair symbol. In restrooms with just a few stalls, it usually is not. We have sometimes gotten into the handicapped stall and then found that my DD's wheelchair didn't come close to fitting in the stall. Since she won't use the bathroom with the door open and since we need her wheelchair in the stall with us because she can't stand, we sometimes are waiting in line for a stall that we can't even use.
It would be helpful if they marked those stalls in a differnt way (like maybe an icon of a person standing with a cane or something). They also need to do something about the Guidebook for Guests with Disabilities. It says all the restrooms are handicapped accessible, but for someone who needs to bring the wheelchair in the stall with them, there are few stalls at MK or Epcot that are really accessible.

[lisapooh]

I agree it is very hard to get a wheelchair into the restrooms at MK and EPCOT and shut the door. AK is hard if you are unaccompanied since they have heavy doors instead of switch backs. MGM is the most accessible.

[Andrew Bichard]

I thought I would add a few new peeves, some serious, some not so serious.

Having the top of your bald head patted by a passing genie at the Morocco pavillion.

Rides I cannot get on (I cannot transfer out of my wheelchair). – Test Track, BTMR, Space Mountain, Pirates of Caribbean, AK raft ride, AK Dinosaur ride, Jungle Cruise (whatever happened to the wheelchair accessible boat announced about this time last year? Is it in service yet?)

Rides I can get on, but wouldn’t for a bet. (I ‘ll let you guess which one).

Smokers who think a cupped hand is a ‘designated smoking area’ and walk ahead of me leaving a smoke trail at wheelchair head height.

The person walking in front of you on the way out of Epcot who spots a photo opportunity at Spaceship Earth and stops in front of you while she directs the rest of her family into a group for the photo.

The person in front of you who starts walking backwards towards you, to get all her family and Spaceship Earth into her photo.

The family who say nothing whilst their photographer backs up and falls into your lap.

Being accosted by strange characters in furry suits at International Gateway, of whom you have no idea whatsoever who they are!

The seagulls at the Boardwalk.

Helicopter tours circling overhead while you try to relax at the pool.

Andrew

[welovedis]

FIRST-Please let me say that I agree about the use of the handicapped stall/restroom. I have only used it one time for, my then 3 yo, DS who was about to mess his pants & all the other stalls were taken. He went quickly & we left the stall immediately. I would not use one normally because my thought is that someone who needs may come in directly behind me & have to wait longer than I would wait for a "regular" stall.

That being said, I take some offense to the comment
"Btw mom's are taking boys up to around 10 to the ladies room now on the premise that it is too dangerous to allow them to go to the bathroom by themselves. Methinks these women are paranoid."

Being that my son is only 4 1/2 yo, I have no idea what will happen when he is ten, but if I want to bring him in a restroom with me then I will. Some of the restrooms in many places, including WDW, have more than one exit. I would hope that when he is ten he will be fine on his own, but things have changed in our society & don't think I am paranoid because I feel safer making a different choice.

Don't want this to turn into a debate, just wanted to comment about the stalls & the age comment.

[JudithM]

Karen, I agree with your comment -" things have changed in our society & don't think I am paranoid because I feel safer making a different choice." Well said!

[Jaimee]

Karen I agree with you also, if a mother feels unsafe letting her child go into a restroom alone she should be able to bring him with her. I do take offense to the implication that there is something wrong with me for going into a stall with my 3 year old. He does know how to use the potty by himself at home and at school, but I'd rather go in with him if he needs any help. We do not have a latch on our bathroom door at home so I don't know that he'd be able to get out of the stall by himself, or if he'd have to crawl under the door or something to get out. Again, the issue was the handicapped stall, I stated my view in an my previous post....I admit to using it in some instances when it was unoccupied to help DS, but realize we should not be using the stall and will practice that in the future.

[lisapooh]

Sorry I can't agree with you but if our 3 yo special ed children can handle these stalls, any normal child of the same age can do it. Our kids are autistic, mentally handicapped, blind, deaf and a few physically impaired. A few are very tiny but still handle the stalls quite well. (1 deaf child who was the size of a 18 month old that we potty trained at school)
If you are worried that they can't operate the latch then do as most parents did in the past. Hold the door shut yourself.
As to bringing older boys into the ladies rest room. Would you send your same age daughter into the men's room with her father. If you wouldn't do that then your son is too old to be in the ladies room. Enough said. This doesn't include children with special needs although the companion restroom are a better solution and more need to be available.

[welovedis]

Oh boy-looks like this is a different can of worms.

Jaimee--I am in total agreement with you about being in the stall. I choose to stay in there while in public so that in case he needs help with anything, I am there. This is my choice & don't think that position needs to be defended. I run a daycare with infants, toddlers & pre-schoolers plus school-age children & their needs are all different no matter what their ages. Sometime they ask for help & sometimes they don't. At home I am always right outside that bathroom door in case they need help. In public restrooms make the choice to stay in the stall with him & he is 4 1/2! Can be there by himself-yes, Do I choose to let him in a different, public place--no.

lisapooh--Comparing men's & ladies rooms are like comparing apples & oranges. Urinals are right there out in the open & much less discreet than the stalls in women's restrooms. That being said, yes, my DH has taken my 9yo niece in the men's room with him at a local mall when he took her for some Christmas shopping for her mom. They discussed it ahead of time & she said her dad just says to look at the floor or close your eyes. Not a perfect solution, but the best he had at the time. There was no way he was going to leave her outside the restroom at that age. Perhaps his hearing impairment made him feel that way, but obviously her dad would not leave her by herself either.

So I guess like I said before, society is very different now & just because someone chooses to do something that they feel is safer does not make them paranoid.

Getting back to your discussion about your pet peeves, I think we all agree the handicapped stall is for the those who need it, and should only be used in case of an emergency for someone who doesn't need the handicapped features.

[Jaimee]

Lisapooh...I'm not sure how many children you have (you keep refering to them as "all of our" children) but I'm sure every child is different. If I don't want my 3 year old in a stall by himself thats my option. I'm sorry to hear you feel he's deficient some how because he doesn't measure up to all of your children. My son is extremely intellegent, I just do not choose to leave him in a dirty public bathroom stall all alone, touching God knows what on the floor or the toilet (he is 3 and they tend to do stuff like that) when I could help him and we can be in and out quickly. Allowing time for the next person to use the bathroom. This is totally off the original subject but I didn't like the attack on my son's abilities........

[Gillian]

My son is still in a stroller, so if I have to go while I'm alone, he goes into the disabled stall with me. I try to be fast. I've never encountered a line while he has been with me, but I will remember in the future to be aware of others who need it more than me.

One thing struck me about the wheelchair gripes -- they are very similar to the stroller complaints! I'm not saying this is a good comparison :) , but if you read the stroller threads, you will see people complaining about constantly being ignored, cut off, tripped over, etc. . Also, stroller pushers have been attacked here on the DIS. I think a lot of it is people not being aware of their surroundings (at least not the stuff near their feet!).

I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but as a new mom learning to deal with a stroller I have developed a real respect for people who get around in wheelchairs. I see how stupid the building designers are sometimes! It makes me appreciate my mobility so much.

[Kay1]

I'm pretty sure LisaPooh was talking about the disabled kids she works with and didn't intend to put anyone down in any way. Unless I'm wrong, she is mainly expressing her frustration at having to wait for the only stall she's able to use while people who are able to use any stall at all are in there. Really, a mom and a three-year-old can fit into a small stall, right?

You know, Lisa Pooh, I sure wish you were at my son's school - we've had some problems with abuse up here. When I saw you live in Perrine, my favorite restaurant in the world flashed into my mind - Captain Crab's take-a-way. I used to live in Cutler Ridge but that was in the eighties. I know the Captain closed up but it was great while it was there. If you ever decide to move to St. Petersburg, give me a jingle - I want you to apply at Scott's school first!

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but those family bathrooms are heaven - I wish they had more to go around.

[lisapooh]

Oh my goodness! Cap't Crabs was one of my favorites. It is gone along with all the other stores that were in the island in US1 there. It's now a car dealership. :(

No plans to move to the St Pete area. Maybe Orlando later when the girls are gone. I can only sub now due to my medical problems. I work at Gulfstream Elementary on Gulfstream Rd in Cutler Ridge. Must likely where your son would attend if he were still here. We have 8 to 10 autistic units now, as well as 3 TMH, 2 PI, 2 HI, 1 profound and several VE along with several resource classes. Oh and 3 Pre-K classes, one which combines regular Pre-K with SPED Pre-K.

For those who wonder I have 2 living children as well as many special kids from school. Plus one son, I lost at 3 months gestation. My oldest just graduated from college this spring with a degree in music performance in spite of numerous obstacles including ASHD, LD, PI, EH and numerous severe food allergies (only the stuff on paper so far). She starts grad school next week. She is also gifted which is not the blessing one would think. Her younger sister is a music major at Florida Internationsl University. They both attend there. She auditions for Disney in January.

I have diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis and neurofibromas and am hard of hearing. I use canes as well as a power wheelchair. For communication I use Lipreading, ASL, English and when necessary several foreign languages. And unfortunately due to an inability to twist easily a handicapped stall is the only one I can use and properly care for myself on my own. I still prefer to remain as indedpendent as I can possibly be.

[Figaro]

Since we are talking about using handicapped stalls, I thought I would share one incident that happened when we were at WDW a couple of years ago. I was using the handicap stall in a bathroom near Fantasyland when a woman came up, banged on the door and said (in a very loud voice): "You need to get out of there right this minute. My children need to use the bathroom." Since hurrying wasn't possible at the moment (smile), I didn't respond, so she pounded on the door and demanded that I get out immediately. When I exited the stall, there was a woman with two kids (non-disabled and quite embarassed by their mom). She then told me that I was "rude" not to get out of the stall immediately(smile).

I chose not to respond, because in my experiences with people, I have found that most people are decent and kind. I actually found the entire incident somewhat amusing(smile). Other people in the bathroom were quite upset about this, and I did thank them for their concern.

[SueM in MN]

Figaro, I think that is a very funny story and that woman certainly behaved in a pretty strange way!
I always worry that someone is waiting who needs the stall when my DD and I are in it. She is so pokey and because of her spasticity, unless she gets quite relaxed, she can't go. When the stall is fairly small it's so much harder for us and I'm always worried about hurting my back trying to manouver in the small surroundings. We seldom have anyone waiting for us, luckily.
They do need a lot more family/companion stalls and more fully accessible handicapped stalls.

[SueM in MN]

I forgot that I have a funny bathroom story too.
One night we were at MK for E-night. My DH had gone on Space Mountain. Younger DD (Katrina) can't go on that ride (she'd love it if she could, but we can't transfer her on and she couldn't sit by herself at any rate). My other DD (Megan) and I don't like the ride, so we all went to the bathroom. I felt really lucky to find the companion bathroom near Space Mountain was empty and Katrina and I went in.
Megan is 19, so she went into the regular bathroom by herself and then came out and talked to us thru the door while we finished. She told us how spooky it was to be in that big bathroom all by herself and that it was really dark outside with no one nearby. It was also near park closing. When I tried to open the door, it would NOT open. The knob wouldn't turn and all I could think of was being trapped in the bathroom all night. Megan tried to open it from the outside, but couldn't. She was about to look for a CM, but we tried one more time with her pulling the door open and turning the knob and me pushing and turning the knob. It finally opened. We did see a cleaning CM and told her that the door was broken (didn't want her trapped in there when she went in to clean it).
I was just happy that Megan had not gone on SM or we would still be in the bathroom since no one would know we were in there.

[MouseLover]

I understand your frustration. However, I'd like to add another point of view. My 4yo child uses a regular stall and I stand outside the door, or leave it open to help her. But if I need to use the restroom, I'm not leaving her outside alone, even if it's just on the other side of the stall door. If the regular stalls are not big enough to accommodate both of us, I will use the handicap stall and keep her safely inside with me.

I am a special education teacher. I have taken my kids (students) on many field trips and here are my pet peeves:
1) Holding a door open for my student in a wheelchair and having someone else
about trip over her chair as they try to rush in ahead of us.
2) People who park in designated handicap parking spaces when they
a) have no handicap tag/sticker
b) are not accompanied by the person with the handicap -- I know that many
handicaps are not visible, but I know people who actually do this. I know someone
who has a legitimate handicap hangtag but allows her Mother to take the
tag when she goes anywhere, whether she accompanies her or not.

Just my 2 cents...

[lisapooh]

Don't jump to conclusions when an able bodied parks in the handicapped lot at Disney. My daughters often meet me with my car after going to one of the offsite parks like IOA. They are sent to the handicapped parking when they tell the castmembers they are picking me up.

Also just a warning if you use the handicapped stall and the bathroom is narrow. I will leave my wheelchair blocking you in if I have to struggle into a regular stall. Trust me on that and I won't feel back about it either. I've done it before and I will again and you won't be pushing that monster out of the way. BTW if I'm not in it, the power chair is locked and no one can move it without my key.

[LindaDVC]

I am able bodied but typically use the handicapped bathroom for two reasons.
One as an OT I like to see the variety of places they put grab bars and toilet paper so I can have my clients practice appropriately.

The second is because I have an insulin pump. Once when in a crowded bathroom it unhooked and landed in the toilet of a not so clean facility. I had to get a new pump a few years ago because of this! So I prefer a little more room to make sure this does not happen again!

However as the wife of a quadraplegic I know the needs of the handicapped and would not use it IF any person with an obvious disability needed it.

Linda

[MouseLover]

Obviously I would not use the handicap stall ahead of an individual with a visible disability, but I would in NO WAY leave my small child to wait outside the door while I use the restroom. I certainly would not feel bad about that.

In regards to the parking matter, I wasn't referring to Disney parking lots, just parking lots in general. And I don't "assume" just because someone does not have an apparent disability that there is none. When I see someone park in a handicap space and get out of the car and appear to be nondisabled, I assume that person has a physical handicap that is non-apparent. I was referring to people who do what I stated, and I know of some who do it, one routinely.

By the way, when you enter a restroom and the handicap stall is already occupied, how do you know whether or not the person is truly handicapped?? (you know, in order to block them in)

After having a caesarean delivery, I had to use the handicap stalls everywhere I went for some time, because I HAD to have the rails to pull up on. You just don't know why a person may be using that stall.

Also, as someone else mentioned, many public restrooms have baby changing stations installed in the handicap stall only, making it necessary for many parents to occupy that stall routinely. Why do places do that? Probably because that's the only space available without blocking the entire restroom.

[lisapooh]

Something you able bodies don't seem to comprehend. When someone in a wheelchair to go it is frequently an emergency. It wouldn't matter who was in that handicapped stall. I would rather trap them for a short time than soil myself. And if the restroom is that narrow it will happen. Too bad. At least I can struggle on my sticks and semi use a regular stall. I don't like it but if I'm desparate I can do it. Some of us can't! If it were another handicapped person I would apologize after. An able bodied probably would not get that courtesy. A mom who is using it as a convenient way to watch there child. No way. They should know better. A regualr may not be convenient but a mother and child can fit. If they can't maybe its time to teach them to stay put. You're proabably fortunate. YOu can talk to your child and assure yourself they are there. Some of my friends can't do that. All they can do is watch feet and as one of our deaf Mom's does. Have them hold the bottom of the stall door.
I'm waiting to see what my deaf blind friend will figure out for her son. He's way too small now. Not even 5 lbs yet. Maybe make the kid hold on to her guide dog.
reminds me I need to pick up a kangaroo pack for Dad so he can pop the baby in it and move around. He's deaf and wheelchair using.

[MouseLover]

Sorry if you don't like it. If I use the handicap stall to keep my child safe, that's just the way it is. It's not because my child won't behave and stand against the door. It's because it's too easy for someone to grab her and be out of sight in no time at all. This is not done for convenience but out of necessity.

[SueM in MN]

Please keep playing nice. Bathrooms and parking seem to be topics that bring out the most contoversy on this board, but let's all stay friendly, please.

[LWQuestie]

My mother uses a guide dog, and she never uses the larger stall. There's too much room.

In small restaurants, I notice that the large stall is not usually marked with the wheelchair symbol, and it's used as a regular stall. It's foolish in a bathroom with three stalls to let one sit idle all the time.

I see enough parents putting their kids in the regular size stalls with them to know that using the large stall is not necessary.

[BuckeyeBelle]

When my DD was 3-4 years old I taught her to stand outside the stall door where I could see her feet at all times. She knew to scream and shout if someone messed with her, so I never felt she was in danger in a busy restroom with plenty of witnesses. If the restroom was not busy, she could go in the empty stall next to me where I could still see her feet. She was not the stand-still type either, but she knew there would be serious consequences if I couldn't see her shoes! We would also talk back and forth so people knew she was being watched. To us, this was a better solution than using the handicap stalls. I also felt that 4 was too old for a normal child to be in with me when I was doing *my* business -- it felt inappropriate. But to each his own on that one. The funny thing about my DD is now that she is 11 I have to actually tell her it's OK if I can't see her shoes! She is so much in the habit of standing outside my stall door that I can't seem to get rid of her - lol! :)

Now my 6 y.o. son is a different story. His is PDD, autistic, and toilet-crazy. It would be very unsafe for him to be outside my arm's reach in a bathroom because he *would* be running (or crawling) for the toilets with no sense of propriety or his own safety. So I give up a my own privacy and take him in the handicap stall with me with no guilt. (If possible, strapped in his stroller for added security - lol!) I guess this is a very personal issue, which is OK so long as we are all considerate and don't tie up the handi stalls any longer than absolutely necessary.

[lisapooh]

BuckeyeBelle, but you are suing the stall for what it is for. For a handicapped safety and convenience. I have no problem with this type of use of the handicapped stall.

What I do have a problem with is parents who do not teach normal children to stay put outside the stall and yell if there is a problem. I don't care how much they claim they are doing it for their child's safety, the truth is they are doing it for their convenience and lack of willingness to take the time to do what parents have done for years, train their child. They are just plain rude and uncaring. I have had the unfortunate experience too many times of ending up soiling myself because of their selfishness. I don't enjoy having to clean myself (inadequetely at that), change clothes, put my soiled clothes in a zip bag and then because I am uncomfortable not being clean, leave and go back to my resort so I can properly clean myself through bathing and again put on clean clothes because the ones I put on in the restroom end up soiled as well and then having to wash the soiled clothes.

Sorry this is my biggest pet peeve even over able bodieds who use handicapped parking spots and my opinion of them is not going to change.

Parents of children with handicaps must do everything they can to keep that child safe and if it means you use the handicapped stall to insure their safety I have no problem with that. When we take these kids as students on field trips we have up to one adult to one kid ratios. (Autistic and PI), 2 to 1 at the max. We can go to the restroom without them because we have others to watch out for their safety. A parent may not have this option es[ecially if you are a single parent.
As to the people who say that the cahnging tables are in the handicapped stall. Not where I've ever been and I've been troughout the east coast. Maybe it's a small town thing. WE pretty much avoid those because most are not easily accessible.

[BuckeyeBelle]

Where we live (Ohio), it is very common to find the changing table in the handi stall -- usually those folding wall-mounted "diaper decks." A lot of places which had no changing area before decided the large handi stall was a good place to put one. This is more common in smaller places like restaurants, but I have also encountered it some larger bathrooms in big city malls and museums (The Cincinnati Museum Center for one).

Here's another "twisted" interpretation of ADA requirements: A new high school was recently built in a nearby town. To meet ADA, they installed an automatic door. Where? It is in the back of the cafeteria by the kitchen, so the cooks and delivery people can use it for loading and unloading!!! They do have a student who uses a wheelchair, but the location of the automatic door is so remote he cannot use it for practical purposes. He still needs to get assistance from others to get in and out of the building anywhere close to his locker and classes. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Andrew Bichard]

LisaPooh, BuckeyeBelle,

I think it is a matter of scale. In a small restaurant say, it is OK to have just one stall, and equip it for everything, Handicap, baby changing and so on. Where you have a whole line of stalls to cater for a large population it is not. In the former case it is less that a disabled person would want to use the stall at the same time as a mother. In the latter case, such as at Disney, the chances are high because there are so many people using scooters and wheelchairs. You might also consider that a single disabled stall is not enough. In an ideal world, where money and space are unlimited you would make ALL stalls handicap standard. The best handicap stall I came across (I wish I could remember where!!), was huge. Space to do a figure of eight in a scooter and two toilet bowls so you had a choice of front, left AND right transfers!

Here in the UK, it is quite common to provide a men’s room, a ladies room, and a separate unisex handicap/baby changing room, similar to the ‘family’ rooms at Disney. I have also come across diaper changing tables in men’s rooms (in the common circulation area – not a stall) – Atlanta airport comes to mind.

I have also come across handicap stalls that have been retro-fitted with diaper changing tables to make them dual purpose. I find that too often, an enormous trash can is put into the stall too for diapers, making it difficult to manoeuvre my chair. I also hate those jumbo size paper dispensers that Disney uses (sometimes two of them). In the smaller handicap stalls they are often fixed just above the grab rails, just at my shoulder level sitting in my wheelchair, making it even more difficult to get in. One last peeve is the stall laid out such that it impossible to reach the flush handle from my chair, or the automatic flush with no manual flush lever at all. I have lost count of the occasions when I have sat in my chair waving my hand back and forth in front of the magic eye to no effect. And don’t forget the automatic tap that sprays water over your arm as you line up to the toilet bowl in your chair.

I can also relate to BuckeyeBelle’s story about access into schools. Just two months back I went to a Parents’ dinner in the canteen of a local school. The only ramped access was through the kitchen The chef wouldn’t let me use that entrance because of health regulations – I couldn’t pass through the kitchen while they were preparing food apparently. I had to be lifted up a step in my electric wheelchair. There was even a handicap stall in the lobby, though how you were supposed to get to it when they were cooking, I don’t know!

Andrew

[PatsMom]

This weekend I tried to notice the diaper changingg place. Here in the northeast (NH) over one weekend in popular tourist destinations I noticed: McDonald's in Ossipee NH - diaper changing in handicapped stall. Other two public places (restaurant for lunch and local mall) were fine. The Outlet Village however (built in the last two years) had the diaper changing in a handicapped stall. So, 50% were in the stall. Not exactly statistically representative, but certainly indicative of the fact that the diaper changing places are inthe handicapped stalls fairly often.

My daughter is 10. I still haven't found a regular stall she would not fit in in with me in a pinch. I know it's different for those with more children, but if you only have one, they can fit. With that said, please don't be too quick to judge in any situation. My osteo isn't getting any better - some days those grab bars and the higher 'throne" really help me. But i walk out under my own power so far. Should I feel guilty because I still could manage in a regular stall even if it is more difficult and painful? This debate is giving me a new perspectiv and I may do so in the future. But until I put all this together, I'll continue to use the handi stall when I'm hurting. If you need to use it too, I'm sorry. Maybe the answer is more accessible stalls! By the way, if you block me in with an emergency, I'll certainly understand. All I ask is the routine politeness I'd want from anyone - i.e., sorry, but I had an emergency. Just like those toilet training.

By the way, my personal opinion is that if your child is too old to be in the stall with you, they are old enough to wait outside, particularly at a crowded place like Disney.
All of this is, of course, just my opinion. I hope I haven't offended anyone - this debate just made me think about some things.

[Wheelsie]

Ive noticed that if the baby changing table isnt IN the handi stall...its BLOCKING IT!!!! (and the lock NEVER works to close it so I can get by of course!!! LOL)

I have noticed something in newer stalls I think is a FAB idea (has anyone else noticed) they have a thing attached to the wall near the toilie so you can stap your lil one in so you can use bothe your hands when getting on and off the toilie (course since I have no kids I can only imagine this is what its meant for...since I do use both hands to transfer to the toilie from my chair and back if I do need to leave my chair)

Also when I was recently (read a month or so ago) at a store we have here called GORDMANS (looking for any Gordman execs that may be listening) they were MORE than accessible in the restroom.... there was TWO handi stall on the back wall with a small wall between em...

Now I dont know about anyone else...but Ive NEVER seen anything like this unless its a concert venue or something similar (none of our local movie theaters even have that and they are almost all new)

[SueM in MN]

I have also run across quite a few handicapped stalls with the diaper deck in it. There is one in almost every McDonald's restroom that I have been in. Particularly in the McD's that are old enough to have been built before the diaper decks were common. They look for a space large enough for one of those and too often, the only place is the handicapped stall. I've also seen them in some of the older malls and restaurants (built in the 70s and early 80s) in our area.
I have also seen those little baby sitter things in bathroom stalls that Wheelsie mentioned. Quite an invention!

[welovedis]

What I do have a problem with is parents who do not teach normal children to stay put outside the stall and yell if there is a problem. I don't care how much they claim they are doing it for their child's safety, the truth is they are doing it for their convenience and lack of willingness to take the time to do what parents have done for years, train their child. They are just plain rude and uncaring.

Again, I guess this could apply lots of ways, but what if the child has an "unseen" problem/issue? We are not supposed to judge a book by its cover, so how can you tell why a parent decides to keep their child with them?

I'm certainly in agreement that a handicapped stall should not be used by a capable person unless it is an emergency ( I define an emergency as something like diarrhea or something that cannot be controlled & there is no other stall available).

But because I choose to keep my DS with me in a regular stall doesn't mean I lack parenting skills. He knows what to do if something happens to compromise his safety. I just prefer to keep him with me because society has changed & I don't need to make an example out of him so others can feel I am bringing my child up properly. Also--I am not rude, uncaring, lacking in willingness to train my "normal" child or any of the other stereotypes you are applying to parents who choose to do this. My DS is a wonderful kid, always commented upon because of his terrific behavior, good manners & great speech, reading & writing skills (at age 4 1/2). I must be doing something right!

[lisapooh]

Sue,
Don't do Mc Donalds. Around here their handicapped access is terrible. Handicapped spots in front but the ramp is around the back. I'll stick to Burger King, Miami Subs and Pollo Tropicale

[MikeP]

While I would never consider trying to run in front of a person in a chair to take the hadi stall, I have used it when no others were available. I have never thought about what you said about "needing the stall now" so to speak. I am not a rude person, as a matter of fact I think I am one of the more considerate type people. I for one will not use the handicapped stall anymore. I can imagine the discomfort you mentioned in your post when you don't make it in time. The lady you mentioned who told her kids to rush to the handicaped stall is just a miserable "insert your own explitive here". Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Daisimae]

Here a few of my thoughts:

"Btw mom's are taking boys up to around 10 to the ladies room now on the premise that it is too dangerous to allow them to go to the bathroom by themselves. Methinks these women are paranoid."

1. You might think that people who did this are paranoid, but we just had a case here yesterday where a 7 yo was almost molested by an adult in a McDonalds bathroom. His mother was standing right outside the door waiting for him. The would-be-attacker got away, but police are searching for him right now.

2. I remember babysitting for one of my little cousins four years ago. I had to use a public bathroom in a hotel and I took her into the handicapped stall with me. She was/is a perfectly behaved child, (or else she would not have been with me). I could have told her to stand quietly outside the stall and wait, but, I was not going to take the even the slightest chance of going back to my cousin without her 2 1/2 yo. There were/are just too many things that could happen and I would be er, well, incapacited, so I might now be able to run out of the stall if I heard anything unusual. It was a new experience for me since I don't have children and am not used to having anyone "watching" me in the ladies room, but, it did make me feel safer.

I do agree that runnning ahead of a person with an impairment or demanding that they leave a stall so someone can get in with their children is very wrong and extremely rude. I would never do that.

With all the things that are happening today, I think there needs to be a new category of bathroom created. "KIDS", where parents of any sex, can take children of any sex, to do what ever needs to be done and still keep an eye on them.

Just My Two Cents,

Daisimae ;-)

[TrlyScrumptious]

Even though I understand completely my responsibility as a parent to be training my son about what to do in emergencies or dangerous situations, it is still my preference to PREVENT them rather than to take reports of them in progress (ie: "Yell if something happens.). So...in the stall with me he goes!

[lisapooh]

Fine, I never said not to take him into the stall with you. I don't care if you choose to be in a crowded stall. That is your choice. What I did say is to leave the handicapped stall for the handicapped who really have need for it and cannot always wait so things are nice and comfortable for you.

[LindaDVC]

On a previous post I gave my reasons for using the handicapped stall.
Yesterday I was in one at my local health club using the restroom on the upper level that has no elevator but a handicapped stall.

When I went to leave the door would not open it was jammed!!
Most folks use the facilities in the locker rooms so I had to crawl out under the door.
Glad I was able to do this and reported it to the desk that someone needed to fix it!

In the last three days Dan took an ambulance to the hospital and was admitted for a few days. While their someone cracked my windshield and the one next to me. I got a nail in my tire and when I went to repair it realized how worn all the tires were so ended up with 4 new ones ( to add to the 3 van ones we bought last week), our home plumbing has problems, the above bathroom incident, and a few other things have happened! What a few days.

Taking it all in stride since we feel blessed that Dan is home and after a scary few hours in the Emergency room he is feeling fine. Hopefully life will be back to "NORMAL" soon!

Linda

[lisapooh]

Some pixie Dust for you Linda. Sounds like you had a rough week. Glad Dan is doing ok.

[SueM in MN]

Ohhhh! You dod sound like you need some pixie dust. Luckily, I have some extra.

[LindaDVC]

Right after I Wrote about our week -- my son yells down from the attic
"hey Mom we have a squirrel up here!"

It really has been quite a week! We have called both animal services here in town and neither has returned our call! Both advertise 24 hrs! I have dealt with all the other problems but I do not like animals in my house!!!!

[SueM in MN]

I think a squirrel is better than bats.
Good luck!

[lisapooh]

The law in Florida is that the handicapped person must be getting out of the car for you to use the handicapped spot. If the handicapped person is going to wait in the car then the car needs to be parked in a regular spot.