Points for Disney Collection 2002

[Covman]

I booked the Grand Floridian for marathon weekend (January 6, 2002) for my wife and myself back in April. I was told that I would get a letter when the 2002 points were established. Based on the 2001 point structure (116 points for Friday/Saturday/Sunday) I was expecting somewhere around 130-140 point range for this year. I got the letter today.......

189 points for 2 weekend nights and one weekday at the Grand Floridian during Adventure season (an increase of over 60%). I have been out on vacation for a week and a half so I'm not up to date on the latest news, so if I've missed something, let me know.

I am calling MS tomorrow, to find out what the whole story is. I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks in advance for any insights you can provide.

[mouseclick1]

Wow! Hopefully they have made some sort of mistake! Please let us know what you find out!

[PamOKW]

That is a pretty big jump. I can't seem to find my 2001 chart but I'm assuming it's 26 for weekdays and 45 for weekends. It's been that rate since at least 1999. Keeping my fingers-crossed for all of us that it was an error. (The 2002 points haven't been posted on the Member Site yet. I just checked.)

I'll wait to hear if this is true. If it is, I have one theory about why.

[Covman]

Confirmed that it is 189 points for the three nights.

The rep confirmed that the points had gone up. I said by 62%- that is unbelievable- it was cheaper to pay cash then use the point- She said DVC had no control over what the
resorts charged for points, they all went up. I said aren't members
complaining-- she said they are cancelling reservations.

That's what I know.

We can get Grand Floridian with Concierge for less than $1600 (with pasta dinner for two pre-mararthon included) so we now have a decision to make. Thoughts? (Or Garden view for less than $1200).

[DVCDAVE]

This is horrible ! What a ripoff ! We should all boycott the Hotels for a year, and watch those points come down ! It is ironic this post came today, I was abut to call and add a stay in a cabin at FW during our stay in March at VWL, (should be 40 pts.) Forget it if it is going to cost me 70 points.

[PamOKW]

I sure hope they distribute the point charts soon. If they are making big jumps like that people may need to change their plans.

Changes in point charts has always been a possibility but I can't recall it happening in the past.

My theory is that by renting points out to strangers at a rate that undercuts Disney, we are doing ourselves a disservice. If people can come here or to E-Bay etc. and book a room at a DVC resort for 1/2 what Disney is charging, they will do it. Then Disney has to work that much harder to book the rooms members have turned over in exchanges. They have to lower their prices. Then they don't have the cash to give to the resort where the trade was made.

People have reported booking a 2 bedroom at OKW for December at $269 per night. The rack rate is $459 and if they get the discount after 12/20 that's versus the rack rate of $730. Now, the rack rates are comparable to GF rack rates and would be an even exchange. If Disney is only getting half the rack rate for the room, they can't do an even exchange with the GF and will have to increase the points they charge DVC members to stay in the other resorts.

I appreciate people being stuck with points from time to time but I really think the widespread rental of points is hurting everyone. It is setting up a secondary market for the resorts that works against the DVC balance. Just MHO....

[Lesley]

Makes me glad I didn't book the Poly or AKL with points on our next trip! We had decided to try VWL using our add on anyway...

If the points have gone up that much the Disney Collection is pretty much out for good for us...there's one exchange option that's no longer really an option. Good thing I've planned to use my points at the DVC resorts.

[Lisa F]

How disappointing! Before staying at a disney collection resort was a splurge but still within the realm of reason... Now the cost is just ridiculous. I know when we bought into dvc that all we were really guaranteed is the point schedule at the resort that we bought in at, but it's still EXTREMELY disappointing that the "flexibility" of DVC seems to be going by the wayside as Disney makes it increasingly more expensive to use our points at new DVC resorts and now the other Disney resorts on property.

I had heard that the reason that the 2002 point charts were taking so long to come out is because they were finally going to add point levels for concierge rooms at some of the hotels... I wonder if they got rid of being able to get regular rooms at hotels that have concierge and those prices are for concierge rooms?

Lisa

[Lesley]

Interesting thought, Lisa. That would be kind of nice and worth using more points....but 60% higher still seems like a lot.

[DVCDAVE]

PAMOKW--- I understand everything you said. But, how does the 2002 point schedule change anything. The secondary rental market isn't going to go away. Members can still be able to rent out their points for OKW for $269, Disney would still be out their rack rate. Seems to me the only ones being punished by this new point schedule is DVC'ers.

I think the whole matter is much deeper than it appears, it must be something in the way Disney accounts for these exchanges on their books. Maybe they feel that during these slow times that it is much easier to clear inventory of rooms in a Hotel for $380/ night, then it is to re-rent your DVC room for $498/night, so they realy don't want your DVC points right now. Remember, up until last year occupancy levels were running 98%, now they are 78%. If POP Century opens it will be even less.

One thing for certain is this, not only do we DVC'ers have to live with this, so does the DVC sales force when objections are raised. (Assuming potential buyers take the time to look, as we did). No matter what, this change has certainly detracted from all of ours DVC investment.

[Covman]

I do want to remind everyone that mine is but one example. It would be interesting to see the entire point schedule to see what the increases are across the board and then determine the overall pattern.

I am concerned personally because I signed a blank check back in April to stay at the GF and the price went up dramatically. Had I know the true point cost I would have booked OKW or BW. I haven't asked yet if there is availability to stay at either of those because I promised my wife that for supporting me for all the time it takes to train for the Marathon that we would have stay at the GF for the actual event.

[Rock'n Robin]

If you look at this and at the rising cost of cruising on points, it seems Disney is encouraging us to stay at our "homes" or not stay at all--I wonder how high the non-Disney exchanges will go next? It sure makes the "collection" part of the DVC video look like a lot of hooey.
Robin M.

[DVCDAVE]

COVMAN--Are you saying that the cost may higher because of the marathon is scheduled that weekend?

[dianeschlicht]

When we first bought in, I thought it would be nice to do a GF or Poly trip once, but after staying in our first 2 bedroom at OKW, I just don't seem to care about going back to a hotel room no matter where it is. If you had told me this information 5 years ago I would have paniced an possible not purchased, but now that I have experienced DVC, I just don't care. I enjoy my "home" too much!:)

[Joeblack]

To me, it doesnt' make much sense to use the same amount or points as a 2-bedroom villa to stay in a room which is smaller than a DVC studio.

Still, the Disney Collection is a "last resort" DVCers have when they have to use their points and nothing else is available. It happened to me last year wen I found out my wife was pregnant and had to cancel my 2 week trip to a stiudio in BWV. I was offered 1 week at YC, which I almost took, but thanks to advice in the boards I got 4 days at aa 1-br at BWV and 3 days at OKW. Had I not gotten lucky and reserved the 1 br villas, i would have had to go witht the YC.

If the price jump covman talks about is true, then I will just rent my points or give them away to my family before using them for the Disney Collection.

[mouseclick1]

I think that by raising the Disney Collection points, we may actually encourage even more owners to rent out their points. Let's say a DVC owner really wants to try out the AKL. The 2002 rack rate in early Feb. for a savannah room is $270. According to the 2001 chart, the points required for a S-Th stay would be 30 points per night. This rate would pretty even if you figure $10 per point compared to the room($299.70 with tax). If the points do go significantly higher, I can see where people would find it more cost effective to simply rent out the points, then pay for their room with the cash from the rental, and even have some spending $$ left over. Of course there are many that would not go this route, but I wonder how many would under these circumstances, especially if a DVC resort is unavailable for specific dates? What do you think?

[Covman]

To DVCDave,

Just to clarify my earlier posting, I really want to see the entire point list just in case I happened to hit the most extreme point increase of any out there -- The story of my life :)

I'm wondering if maybe its because its marathon time or just maybe the GF in Adventure season simply went up far more than anything else. I want to see all the data before I draw any conclusion about how bad (or ok?) these changes might be.

[DVCDAVE]

COVMAN-- I understand, I just checked the members site and it isn't up there yet. I am going to cal MS tomarrow, I want to add on a day to our already scheduled March vacation at VWL, we were thinking about getting a cabin at FW, I will do some inquiring then about the 2002 point schedule for premier season. Good Luck COVMAN, lets hope this is isolated, otherwise we will all suffer.

Buy the way, after doing some more thinkiing about this I believe PAMOKW may be wrong, or at least backward on this issue. This may actually ENCOURAGE more DVC rentals in the secondary market. For instance, if I have points that I can't use because the DVC resort is all booked up, right now I would turn to the Disney Collection as a second choice. If this is true that the schedule is inflated, I very might well rethink and rent my points out, and take the cash. Personally I think this will cause a lot more rental activity, not less.

[mistermouse]

IF it happens that 2002 Collection points increase by any amount greater than the hotel inflation rate (say 5-10%), then DVC'ers are essentially being told the program has come to an end. We can ponder any number of reasons why Disney would want to shut down the Collection for DVC, but none of the potential reasons indicated in this thread seem to provide any fully logical reason for such a move. Time will tell... (however, if it is true that we are seeing 50% + increases it does almost seem like a personal attack on folks who have signed up for Disney Vacation Club...but, why?). Anyway, we are happy at OKW, VWL, HHI, VB and BWV - if we feel the urge to stay at another deluxe WDW hotel, we'll pay the best available rate we can get and be happy to be at the place we love the best. We we're sold "the world," but perhaps we are just being reminded who is in charge...?

[PamOKW]

I'm not saying the increase in resort points would cause people to rent or not rent their points. My theory is that people not using their points for purely personal reasons as the DVC concept was designed....vacations at WDW or elsewhere, treating friends, allowing friends to use points (even for a charge)...but rather setting up a side business of renting DVC points for a profit when they are unable to use them may have contributed to throwing the DVC system out of whack. For 10 years there has been little or no adjustment to the World of Resorts program, at least nothing that was drastically noticeable. Now, that there is an increase in members and an increase in rental activity on the Internet that attempts to compete with WDW, the demand of people trying to book through CRO may have decreased and the price they can charge these renters may also have decreased.


Of course, I may still be completely off the wall with this concept. ;)

[Dean]

Since DVC rooms should increase in price with the other WDW hotels, the price shouldn't go up at all "to stay the same". Inflation between resorts should cancel out and the points should stay the same. With an increase in points for DC and DCL a program that already had little value is gone. At a time when the usage is less, seems they're shooting themselves in the foot.

[Disney Adventurer]

I am in the process of buying a resale so am not yet a DVC member and don't yet have access to MS. But I was planning a trip over X-Mas and planning on staying at the Poly and was looking up required points. Again don't have access to any "official" Disney info but somehow on one of the points calculators, can't remember which one, I got a figure of 30 pts/weekday for January 1, 2 at the Poly. By the 2001 chart this is adventure season and was 22 pts. I thought maybe the season had changed for the first part of January, but this seems to support a points increase (36%). Again not 100% sure where I got that number but I've got it written down in my plan.

[normr]

A 60% increase in points cost for a stay in the Disney Collection Hotels is totally unacceptable, this program has been a large selling point, IMHO all this is going to do is hurt DVC sales in the long run because people will see that they no longer have that safety valve when they can't get reservations at a DVC unit, and yes you did pay a little more for this program, but a 60% jump kills the idea just as quick as ending it, I think someone would rather bank their points than to waste them by doing the Disney collection.

These Disney bean counters once again are out of control, maybe they need to quit buying TV networks and internet companies instead. Walts turning over in his grave a little more I think.

[Mickbee]

Isn't the DVC owned by the parent Disney company?

It sort of sounds a bit unethical that they are punishing their own kids. Isn't there anything in our agreement that specifically addresses this type of increase/issue? The increases will have a significant cost impact to the members and hamper the flexibility of the program, therefore making it far less appealing to current and future members. Or is that the plan? Perhaps this will be a selling point of the much speculated DVC II; "Buy DVC II, you are guaranteed only a X% increase per year on the rooms and cruises". It would add benefit to a new program with only one resort when the well established proven multi-resort existing plan is the direct competition. When the three selling resorts sell out, DVC II would be a direct competitor with us and Disney would do what they could to ensure they got their sales and/or rentals prior to us. Or contracts say it all over them "Compete with Disney and we will squash you like a grape" ;)

I really don't have a strong desire to stay in the non-DVC rooms, BUT I asked my guide this specific question regarding Disney property and the DCL prior to purchasing for the simple fact of the flexibility when there is lack of DVC rooms. He indicated that they wouldn't increase points in such a manner because they would be hurting the program. I asked him this question because we were stays at the Coronado Springs and the week day points were the same as the rack rate and the weekends points were more than the rack rate. I couldn't see how this would be inflation proof with a rate above rack.

The cruise was certainly a great selling point. Now I hear the points are increasing on them as well and cash is a better solution? Another conversation...I realize it is a "sales" presentation. Though laid back and friendly, sometime things may not be exactly as they appear.

It would seem that the state of Florida would have some sort of regulations governing against such radical increases.

If Disney's reservation rate is down 19%, perhaps they should have projected their build rate factoring in the roller coaster effect of the economy. Have they saturated their property?

RE renting; This is a risk that Disney should have factored in from the inception of DVC. They have expanded the program and have over 50,000 members. Didn't they expect a saturation of point renting? Perhaps the bean counters and business developers drank decaf that morning...

This is just a bunch of questions to ponder. Hopefully this is just a specific week and this speculation is not valid. When will they release the charts for 2002? If they did make a radical change, wouldn't they contact the members to try and mitigate some of the problems in advance? Is that Disney's style or do they just drop things in your lap?

Sorry to hear your points have increased so much. Let your wife know the situation. Perhaps she would prefer to stay in a DVC resort after weighing the point cost associated with it. Regardless, don't let it spoil your time together.

Best of luck in the marathon!!


Now I must "run" because I board a plane in two hours for VWL!
:bounce:

[Dean]

The only protection from increase of points is at your home resort, the one you own at. No promise that even new resorts will be in the club. The DCL, CC, DC, etc are simply add on programs that could vanish tomorrow. They have never had good value, simply gave us an option.

This would not come under any regulations and certainly not the timeshare regulations as far as FL is concerned. I believe DVC did factor in the rentals initially and their interpretation that it wasn't enough of a problem to fool with. If you read the POS, I think you'll get that message. They put only enough info to protect them from lawsuits and no more.

[mkkim]

Just replied to a previous thread on Disney Collection.

In short... we made ressies for May of 2002 Sun - Thurs at the Poly. Thought I would be spending around 120pts.... We'll how does 176 sound?!!!! Yes, I received the confirmation today. Now the question.... Can I cancel this reservation and if so do my pts stay in the Disney Collection bank. Can I reallocate them to my home resort of VWL? I am new to DVC and haven't even made my first trip. I am very upset about how many pts are being taken up for this trip next May.

Any advice? Thank You!!!!

[tinkandme]

Covman,
You started something very interesting!
I'll wait to see how this works out, before I judge.
However, I just want to say BEST OF LUCK!!
Running a marathon WOW, I hope it all pays off for you,
all your training, and the things you have had to "put off" for the time being to train......you are admired!
Please re-post and let us know how you did.

TinkandMe

[ripleysmom]

Well mkkim, considering the fact that points have increased so dramatically I would MS would give you your points back without a problem. If they don't I would speak to a supervisor.

[KLR-wlv]

I just joined in April and flexibility was a big reason to choose DVC. I wondered then, however, if the points needed for DC and CC would increase out of control to make that part of the program useless, and it seems to be happening. DVC cannot keep selling itself with cost increases, point increases and a dwindling number of years.

You would think "they" would understand that the folks who joined DVC are some of their most loyal customers who come repeatedly to the world, without ticket discounts, and spend lots of money on food and "stuff". To make a visit more restrictive is plain stupid.

The other thing which is a problem is this will most likely make reservations at DVC resorts more difficult since there will essentially be only one place to use your points - your home resort.

KLR

[LauraS]

I agree with KLR that this new phenomenon will make it even more difficult to get ressies at DVC resorts. What a bummer. Disney is pricing us out of the DC and DCL with these dramatic rises in point costs. I really do think that this will hurt them in future sales at BCV. Disney is pretty much saying "hope you like your home resort.....because that's where you'll be staying for the most part". Flexibility is no longer a selling point. Someone posted recently that they were interested in buying points primarily for using them on the DCL. I hope that person is reading this thread.

I think that the rental of points by DVC members has become a nuisance that Disney can no longer ignore. I recognize that right now that the 2001 Disney Resort rack rates can't be beat by point rentals at $10 per point, but if Disney raises their 2002 rack rates and leaves the DC point schedule alone, I believe that it's too close for comfort for them. So now they've raised them enough to make it absolutely cost prohibitive to rent points and beat the Disney rack rates. Disney also slashed the DVC home resort rack rates with specials that also rival the savings that renters have gotten in the past. Didn't I read something about a two bedroom at OKW for 400 and something a night during Peak Season? Well, that's pretty darn good. I understand that they only have 4% cash rooms, but they'll want to fill all of that space first and prevent DVC rentals from spilling into their deluxe resorts. All folks who are renting points from DVC members will be locked into staying at DVC resorts. And so will those of us who are members.

It's one thing to rent points that you absolutely can't use, but I think that it has become much more prevalent to say use 2/3 of your points, and rent out the rest to cover your dues for the year. Or, if you're having a tough year financially, to just rent them all out for the year so that you don't have to sell your membership. With a slagging economy, and Disney seeing a dramatic drop in occupancy, they are most certainly worried about point rentals, especially during peak season when they need their hotels filled to capacity.

I just hope that anyone looking at a resale, or anyone contemplating buying through Disney at VWL understand that the only way DVC is a good value is when you stay at the DVC home resorts. Don't be fooled by those glossy photos of the GF or the Poly in the brochure. And the "good value" part, well that doesn't necessarily include the BCV because we haven't seen the point schedule for that new DVC resort yet. With this dramatic jump in points at the Disney resorts, it makes me wonder what the point schedule will look like at BCV.

Laura

[JimGarth]

mkkim-

How were you able to make reservations for the Poly next May? It isn't the 7 month window yet. We wanted to do the same thing, but have to wait until November.

Jim:)

[PamOKW]

Jim,

To book a non-DVC resort you don't have to wait until 7 months. You can book 11 months out. So, give a call but be prepared for sticker shock. ;)

[Dean]

Originally posted by LauraS
I think that the rental of points by DVC members has become a nuisance that Disney can no longer ignore.

Laura
Laura, I'm curious as to the origin of this statement. I've heard absolutely nothing from Disney or DVC about rentals. The only discussion I've seen about it is on this site and the DVCtalk email list. Obviously there is no hard data to go by but I wouldn't think DCV would even think about rentals unless we're talking around 5% of the points used. At this point I would be extremely surprised if it even approaches 1%. Plus there's really nothing that DVC could do, even if they wanted to. Legally, they couldn't even enforce a "commercial use" ban other than preventing use of protected emblems and the like.

I don't think WDW has changed their rack rates though they are offering a lot of specials lately.

[kem330]

I thought Covman had it bad. We've been thinking we would use our points at Y or BC if our waitlist doesn't clear for NY's. Well look at these numbers:
Yacht and Beach Club:
12/30/01 and 12/31/01: 48 pts/night (2001 rates)
1/01/02 and 01/02/02: SV: 60 / WV:70 / Concierge: 96/night

Last years cost for same dates: (Jan 1 and 2): 22 points/night.

This was a major reason we bought DVC- the flexibility of being able to trade into hotels- what a mistake!! 200% increase!!! Might as well rent those points at $10 each and pay cash. Of course Disney's taken care of that by cutting hotel prices, making it harder to rent. :mad:

[vernon]

Dean I agree with you that the "inflation" value between DVC rooms and the other WDW hotels SHOULD match, there is no reason why the increase should be so marked. Indeed my DVC rep told me EXACTLY that, in his opinion the rates for Disney hotels is unlikely to go up much because the hotels are working on the differential between the resorts.
IMHO they're trying to scalp us and IF they find a drop in DVC bookings for WDW hotels AT A TIME BOOKINGS ARE dropping as well, they will rethink. I can't see how they can lose money on DVC trades, they just think they can extract a little more.

I don't agree however that the ONLY resort that we can guarantee the points cost is our home resort. It is in theory possible to change the 7/11 month window BUT this needs to be voted through the board, IMHO if they try to do that ON TOP OF the higher rates for WDW hotels AND the cruise there is going to be hell to play. If all the individual part of the DVC , as they exist at this moment, are tied to their perspective current "points per year per unit" total ( which they legally are) , the only change can be the 7/11 window. They can try to mess with the window, they can't alter the points schedule.

Again I come back to the point , the board are there to protect the interests of the owners of DVC, while Disney owned a large share of the inventory they could use their muscle, as that share decreases if they try to start shoving the owners around they are going to find their board is replaced by one that is more in tune with the masses. I REALLY don't think Disney wants hostile owners or an inflexible board.

[PamOKW]

Hmmm....I'm not liking this three levels of points. I do like the option to book Concierge but, in the past, DVC members on points were almost always given the equivalent of a waterview room. Now, we are paying more points for a standard view?

I don't see how they can issue this point schedule without some sort of explanation. It just seems bizarre to have such a dramatic increase in one year.

The 22 points for Y&B is equivalent to a weekday 2-bedroom at OKW. To raise the points to 60/70 points is roughly 3 2-bedrooms. That is absurd. Concierge at 96/night is insane -- heck a GV at OKW is only 36 points!!!

I could see "possibly" raising points to be equivalent to the WLV/BWV but this is just nuts. Unless....these are equivalent to the points at BCV and the EPV?

[CarolMN]

IMHO, increasing the points required for the Disney Collection hotels and the CC may actually be in the best interests of the majority of DVC members. My assumption is that most of us would rather have our annual dues stay the same or decrease.

When a DVC member uses points to stay at a non-DVC WDW resort (or to take a cruise), DVC transfers the agreed upon cash out of DVC to the hotel (or to DCL). To recover the $$ going outside the DVC system, the equivalent room(s) are rented for cash. We all know that this year, WDW hotel occupancy is down and Disney has been offering many more discounted rooms than in years past. If DVC rooms (that need to be rented for cash) are going vacant or for deeply discounted rates, someone is stuck with the deficit. For DVC resorts, I think the "stuckee" is us DVC members. If the deficit is large enough, DVC will need to make it up somehow - i.e., increasing our dues.

While the opportunity to use points at non-DVC hotels is a nice perk, I 'm not excited about subsidizing those that do via higher dues. I'd rather see the points increase to discourage use of this perk and/or to increase the odds of DVC recovering the $$ flowing out of the system for this purpose. When the demand for on-site hotel rooms is strong, DVC has a very good chance of renting out the DVC accomodations at a price that can cover the outlay. When demand for those hotel rooms is not strong, DVC doesn't have a good enough chance of recovering the $$. The economics of the Disney Collection perk don't work if the non-DVC resort gets a "sure thing" and DVC gets an empty room.


I think the DC point increase has more to do with the lower hotel occupancies and the economy than it has to do with renting or Disney making more money at our expense. If my understanding is correct, the only real profit Disney makes from a DVC property (after it's sold out, of course) is the management fee for running the resort (paid for by our dues) and from renting the 4% it retains.

Again, JMHO. Yours may be different.

[Dean]

Originally posted by vernon
I don't agree however that the ONLY resort that we can guarantee the points cost is our home resort. It is in theory possible to change the 7/11 month window BUT this needs to be voted through the board, IMHO if they try to do that ON TOP OF the higher rates for WDW hotels AND the cruise there is going to be hell to play. If all the individual part of the DVC , as they exist at this moment, are tied to their perspective current "points per year per unit" total ( which they legally are) , the only change can be the 7/11 window. They can try to mess with the window, they can't alter the points schedule.
I was more referring to new resorts, not already existing ones. With current resorts, the points costs are protected by default because of the commitment to the owners at that resort but not because of commitments to other resort owners. It sounds like we are mostly in agreement on these issues, other than the possibility of DVC I vs II or whatever we want to call it. Ask your guide about that one, I bet they tell you it would not be a problem. I've preached all along not to count on things like the DC, DCL, CC, etc; just like I preached to Marriott owners about the reward points and most of them didn't listen either and now many are sorry.

I was talking to a coworker who is also a DVC owners. She fees that DVC must offer a major incentive like free golf to sell the new resort, even if it does go for 50 years. She too feels the end date will not be 2042.

While I have a lot of faith in DVC and Disney in general, it is just plain suicide to bank on items that could dramatically change tomorrow. Much like buying exactly the number of points you need for an exact type of stay, just stupid if you have a choice.

[kem330]

I'm really confused here- by requiring higher points for the resorts, doesn't that mean that dvc has to pay more for you to transfer? Doesn't that make it harder for them to recoup their expense? Or is it the other way around? Does it mean that dvc still pays the same to the resorts, but keeps more of our points to rent out?

[DVCDAVE]

We can not declare war, SO, I think it is time for a boycott of the Disney Collection !!! Easy enough, and painless. Who in their right mine would use it any way. Also, we should start more threads on this subject too. We all know that Disney DVC monitors these boards, AND so do a LOT of prospective new customers !!!!! The more we don't let this subject die, the more they get hurt. Time for some response onour part other than sitting silent.

[Dean]

Originally posted by kem330
I'm really confused here- by requiring higher points for the resorts, doesn't that mean that dvc has to pay more for you to transfer? Doesn't that make it harder for them to recoup their expense? Or is it the other way around? Does it mean that dvc still pays the same to the resorts, but keeps more of our points to rent out?
No, it just means they'll have more points to rent out at your expense. DVC actually pays the other resorts cash, a predetermined discounted rack rate. Probably more than anyone else pays at that resort the entire year.

[PamOKW]

When we went through the AK pass problem....DVC being the only passholder that was not offered any way to upgrade their pass to include AK...I used to sit and watch the DVC promotion on "Disney TV". There was a line about "being family". I would always yell back, "Yeah, the black sheep." I'm beginning to feel that way again. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[PamOKW]

1/01/02 and 01/02/02: SV: 60 / WV:70 / Concierge: 96/night

Kem330 -- Just checking whether it's 60 points for one night or for two nights (30 per night)?

[DebbieB]

IMHO, increasing the points required for the Disney Collection hotels and the CC may actually be in the best interests of the majority of DVC members. My assumption is that most of us would rather have our annual dues stay the same or decrease.

I don't think dues has anything to do with this. Dues pay for the operation of your home resort, not costs of members trading out. If DVC makes more money on trades, it goes to their bottom line, not to lower dues. The only time dues come into play is when DVC rents breakage rooms (points rooms left 60 days or less before arrival). Speaking of dues though, with all the price increases Disney has been doing lately, I'm concerned what the dues will be for next year. DVC takes a "management fee" as part of the dues and they could stick us there and add some $$$ to their bottom line. Dues have been steady or slightly lower the past couple years, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them go up next year. DVC has us right where they want us, the resorts are selling out faster than they can build, so their attitude is "take it or leave it".

[kem330]

Hi Pam! Yes it was 60 points per night!! I just about fell over. You're right about black sheep- I'm starting to feel like the poor relation. You all have seen a lot more erosion of benefits than I have, but in 6 short months, we've seen increased restrictions on pool hopping, triple digit inflation on Disney Collection, increases in DCL, decreased hours of operation, reduced staff, etc. I sure am having second thoughts on an add on at BCV. I can probably stay there cheaper on discount codes or AP rates .

[DVCDAVE]

DEBBIEB--- Quote-"Dues have been steady or slightly lower the past couple years, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them go up next year. DVC has us right where they want us, the resorts are selling out faster than they can build, so their attitude is "take it or leave it".

You left out "or stick it"

[DVCDAVE]

Does everyone understand that this move by DVC will affect our resale values !!!!!???? If you don't think so, think twice. A major incentive has now been render almost useless !! If that doesn't affect the resale value, I don't know what will. We will all go to bed a little bit poorer tonight because of this.

[gray]

Okay, you guys are scaring me! DH and I had just about decided to take the plunge with DVC. Would you advise me to reconsider this decision in light of the recent point increases?

[DVCDAVE]

Honestly, knowing what I know now, and Disney's LACK of honesty and forthrightness, I wouldn't buy DVC. I wish I never bought DVC. Frankly, I paid $67 per point, and I don't even think it is worth half that now that they just about did away with any possibility of doing a Disney Collection exchange.

Don't walk away from DVC, RUN !!!!

[kem330]

Gray, Sorry for all the negativity, it's just frustrating to see the erosion of the fringe benefits of DVC. I purchased because I don't mind using points to stay at hotels for a little variety and flexibility- it was still cheaper than paying discounted room rates. Now it's not. Being able to use points at a "reasonable" point cost insured I could still go to Disney if DVC resorts were full. You have to look at this from your particular situation. Do you plan on using points primarily for stays at DVC resorts? If so than you should be okay. Also if you travel at off season - I think hotel exchange rates will be more reasonable then. For some of us the exchanges were a very important benefit- in fact I don't think we'd have bought without them. But for others they are completely irrelevant. Good Luck!

[prplcrzy]

With the size and comfort difference between the hotels and the DVC resorts, why would you want to stay at one of the hotels? I never thought it was a good value before and sounds like a worse one now.

Just curious, has anyone called their guide or MS and asked why such a huge increase in these point values?:jester:

[WebmasterDoc]

Does everyone understand that this move by DVC will affect our resale values !!!!!????

Just curious why you would feel that DVC has any responsibility or obligation to maintain resale values. In fact, they have already artificially maintained resale values by the right-of-refusal clause. Resale prices have benefitted from this practice for several years now.

Raising Disney Collection point costs is more likely a means to offer a more stable means to recoup the cost of the exchange itself. With the availability this year, it appears that DVC resorts have many unused rooms- as evidenced by the AP and DC discounts . Many of these rooms are available due to points used for non-DVC resort reservations. DVC still has to pay the other resorts and unless a sufficient number of those points can be used for cash rentals, there may be a shortfall. Raising the points needed allows a more comfortable margin to cover the expense.

Advice on this board has always suggested that the best use of DVC points is at DVC resorts. This would appear to confirm that recommendation.

[Terry S]

I am a prospective new member (when BCV opens) and you guys are all definately making me think twice or even three times!!!! Most eveything I have read on this board has been so positive. But, if this is going to be the way of the future, I can probably just keep using my AP rate. It also makes me wonder.... what next?????

[chris1gill]

You have to think, why are you buying DVC points? Are you planning to PRIMARILY stay at the DVC Villa's? If so, don't worry about this discussion... I think it's fair to say, that overall DVC'ers don't typically use the Disney Collections resorts... The only time I can think of that I would use it, is a last minute trip where there is no DVC availability...

I don't exactly think this is fair, but if you guys are planning to buy & stay at the DVC resorts, you have little to worry about...

As for our resale values... last time I checked, a lot of people want to stay at BW & OKW... They'd pay for a resale with or without the Disney Collection.....

[TheWho]

My question: Since more DVC members will not be booking at non-DVC resorts at WDW , will that make the 11 month window even more critical? It sounds like DVC members will be forced to stay at DVC resorts only, probably their own resort.

I actually try a different resort at the begining of each DVC stay(2 nights), but always pay cash since I thought the points were too high. Now, they're really too high!!

[Dean]

Originally posted by Terry S
I am a prospective new member (when BCV opens) and you guys are all definately making me think twice or even three times!!!! Most eveything I have read on this board has been so positive. But, if this is going to be the way of the future, I can probably just keep using my AP rate. It also makes me wonder.... what next?????
I can't speak for everyone else but to me the DC has never had any real value so this wouldn't change my perspective a bit. Were I looking at resale currently, this would not even cause me to pause. Anyone that Buys DVC other than to use the points mostly at a DVC resort, is throwing money away and that is their prerogative. Some want to know they've paid for their vacation even if technically one option is more expensive, and this is ok for them.

If a person wants to join DVC and wants to do cruises and the like, buy less points and save up some money to pay cash for the other items. You have much more flexibility and will almost certainly end up cheaper in the long run IN EVERY SCENARIO. The only exception I can think of would be for those where buying DVC is still a good idea and couldn't use up 150 points consistently or if one got a great resale deal which could change the cost number dramatically.

I don't see this changing the availability one bit for members. Remember those points given up aren't available to members. It might change the rooms available for rent to non owners and discounts available at DVC resorts.

[DVCDAVE]

DOC & CHRISSGILL. While I agree with you on certain points like DVC not being responsible for resale value. I adamently believe that the Disney Collection has, in the past enhanced the DVC program. There are many owners , me included, who bought in to DVC with the comfort of knowing that, IF they couldn't get a DVC room in their planned vacation time, they could always book a room at one of the Disney Collection resorts. Buy esculating the point schedule in such a dramatic fashion, Disney has in affect closed that program for all except the economicly blind. As for offsetting costs of the exchange program, I simply can't believe. or accept that explaination, as the program had seemed to work so well for the past 10 years with little or no change until now. Disney, if lossing money during those years, would have certainly done something much sooner had the program been the economic disaster that would have justified such a dramatic exculation in point costs. We weren't born yesterday, we should be able to recognize a gouge when we see one, and this is one ever there ever was.

[WebmasterDoc]

Disney has in affect closed that program for all except the economicly blind.

IMHO, using DVC points at DC resorts has ALWAYS been a bad deal. It did (and still does) provide an option for members to venture beyond the DVC setting if they wish.

As for the costs of the exchange program, in case you hadn't noticed, the economic climate has changed dramatically in the last 10 months. I don't think DVC has lost money on the past with this program, but I do think they may have in the last few months. IMO, increasing the points for DC resorts is a fiscally responsible move and nothing more.

We have seen recent discussions about renting points for well over $10 disappear lately- yet there are currently no Rent/Trade posts asking for more than $10...and many for as few as $6. An unheard of figure a few minths ago.

If we, as members, think that ANY optional component of the program is too expensive- whether that's DC resorts, the golf program, daily housekeeping, the cruise, etc.- then we can exercise our right to ignore the program. For those who claim to have purchased because of the DC exchange feature- it's still available. It's up to you whether the "value" is worth it.

[KLR-wlv]

I know in comparison to the DVC resorts, the DC was not as good a value, but for those who are only paying dues, a 30 point stay is costing them a little over $100 a night - which isn't such a bad rate for the nicer hotels on property. The DC was an option - I probably wouldn't have used it - but it was an option nonetheless - as was a stay at the Grove Park Inn or a hotel in New York - a little pricey on points - but in a year not going to DW - an option. These options are dwindling and again, will make reservations at DVC resorts all the more difficult to obtain if they are the only reasonable place to use points. Flexibility IS the selling point - not being allocated certain weeks like other timeshares - but we may essentially be forced to certain weeks if all dvc members are trying to use their points at three onsite hotels only.

Does DVC management care if only a certain percentage of members can get reservations? Doubtful, since the erosion of benefits to this program continues. All thoughts of add-ons are gone in my mind. I just don't get these actions in times of lowered park attendance. As a DVC member and a stockholder - it is disappointing to say the least.

I was disappointed when I went to WLV and found they had combined the boat service with FW - adding a significant time to getting to MK. I wouldn't be surprised if they did away with the boat altogether now. I think their cost cutting measures are extremely short sighted.

[sgtpet]

DVC is selling all of its members out. I recently received the promotion video for DVC and they push how reasonable it is to go to places other than the DVC resorts. Doc, they are eliminating an option for these people (within reason). I for one was looking forward to purchasing at DVC. One attraction for me was you could go to other locations throughout the world at what seemed to be not so unreasonable. In addition it would be nice to transfer your points to take the Disney Cruise without getting ripped off. It is ashame that DVC is doing this. Watch out because the next step is to eliminate your reasonable opportunity to go to another DVC resort. They will end up having different points for whether it is your home resort or not.

My interest is over. The value is dwindling rappidly.

What appeared to be a tremendous timeshare is a disappointing letdown.

[PamOKW]

Gray and others considering purchasing, I wouldn't let the raising of points be the deciding factor in your purchase. For one thing, we haven't actually seen the schedule although it sounds like the increases are pretty much across the board. I would call your guide and ask to see the charts and maybe see if they can offer an explanation for the major changes.

When considering a purchase the primary point to look at is the DVC component. Will you make good use of the WDW, Vero and HHI resorts? Does it fit in your budget etc., etc.

Use of the the other WDW resorts is really just a "safety net". It's hard to give up the idea of not being able to stay at your favorite resort or to try whatever is new. In reality, most members end up staying at the DVC resorts the majority of the time. It will just be more economically feasible to pay cash to stay at the non-DVC resorts in the future.

Before panicking too much about the loss of WDW resorts on points, let's remember Y&B is coming off the option list anyway when BCV opens. WL is already gone.

My greater concern is to see what has happened with non-WDW options. I think we need more Concierge Collection selections at decent point amounts. If these have gone up as well I'll be much more disappointed. We need options for those times when we can't make it to Florida.

I'm not happy about a large unexpected increase in Disney Collection options. It leaves a bad feeling. But, it really doesn't have that large of an actual impact. I've only used it once in 8 years. Every year there is the possibility that it can end altogether. This is an "in-between" option. It's not gone but it is a very expensive use of points.

[Lisa F]

Originally posted by Doc

As for the costs of the exchange program, in case you hadn't noticed, the economic climate has changed dramatically in the last 10 months. I don't think DVC has lost money on the past with this program, but I do think they may have in the last few months. IMO, increasing the points for DC resorts is a fiscally responsible move and nothing more.


I don't understand how the program would cause DVC (or Disney) to lose money. If someone trades say 26 points for a weeknight in the GF to disney, disney is losing the $199/night on the room that they would've charged for AP rates. In exchange for that 26 points/night they can rent a standard view 2 bedroom to pay for it... Although those rates are deeply discounted, they are still over $300 which is over 150% of what they would've gotten for the GF room, if it rented at all.

The only reason I can think of is if DVC has negotiated to "pay" disney full rack rate on all of their rooms and only gets back some percentage of whatever disney can rent the equivalent DVC room for.

Interestingly enough, I just did the quick math and i'm not sure how often this holds, but it seems like Disney has pretty much decided that points are worth $5/point. That's what they're giving for magical beginnings, and that's about the value of points used with both the disney cruise lines and the disney collection now (just a very rough gross estimate).

If Disney did something to indicate that this move was a "temporary tightening of the belt" to deal with the softening economy, it would be one thing. Instead it's perceived as disney basically cutting out one element of flexiblity in the program... Do you think the points for DC have a chance of going back down again?

This worries me because one of the things that sold me on DVC is the flexiblity of the program and the "safeness" that I feel in going with Disney. It makes me wonder if disney is planning to completely strip the program down to the bare essentials of what is promised in writing after they feel they can sell no more new units. At least if we can't exchange out of disney anymore, people won't be able to exchange IN to disney and this would probably make a fairly good market for dvc members who independently exchange weeks with other timeshare holders.

Anyway, regardless of whether I have used the DC (which I haven't yet, but I was planning to splurge on the GF in Jan 2003) it's still a very disappointing move on the part of disney.

Lisa

[sgtpet]

You should be concerned Pam. That is my underlying concern.


I could bet that they will raise the non Disney collection points and then eventually make it impossible or very costly to stay at a non home DVC resort.

This is a stepping stone to disaster.

Let's think about it. Consider all the perks over the last 10 years. Now the perks are dwindling and so are the years left in the program. Why would anybody buy into this at this point? The non DVC owners would be better off keeping the variety of vacation choices within Disney and the rest of the world.

[normr]

I've already fired off two e-mails about this (I'm not happy about this at all, I too think Disney is changing what they sold to us and made us believe).

Now I will follow it up with a regualr letter to the heads of DVC

[DVCDAVE]

The CORNERSTONE of Disney's marketing of DVC has been FLEXIBILITY !! It is one thing to reign in perks like discounts and poolhoping. It is another thing all together to eliminate the economic feasibility of exchanges in to the Disney Collection. While it is true DOC that the option is still there, and that the option wasn't all that great to begin with, it is something all together differant to jack up the expense (in points) to exercise that flexibility.

I have two promotional videos that Disney sent to us prior to purchase of our interest in DVC. Through out both videos the theme and 'buss words' are flexibility. Flexibility of time of travel, flexibility of destination, flexibility of accomodations, etc. etc. etc.. Clearly, Disney has violated its infurred longterm promise to its DVC members, while hiding behind the imbigious wording of its contract.

I am furious over this issue. While I know what the timeshare agreement says, the sales rep and marketing department of DVC were saying something all together differant.

While it remains TRUE that the benefit is still there, the SPIRIT of it is NOT. Further, I am not so closed mionded is to not understand that minor changes to the point schedule for the Disney Collection may be necessary and justified to account for room availibility at certain resorts during seasonal swings. But an accross the board gouge is both uncalled for and abusive to the membership, and violates the inferred promise of flexibility.

DOC, you and other members continue to point to rentals as a cause for this manuver by Disney. Frankly, I don't see what business it is of Disney, or DVC what members do with their points. It is the members progative to either use them, rent them or give them away. It is the members PRIVATE property. For all we know, or don't know this may have little or know bearing on Disney's actions. IMHO if this activity was causing financial hardship on the DVC program, I would assume we would have heard some sort of warning from DVC manangement long ago, as we did with pool hopping.

Yes, I do understand that the economy has softened in the last 10 months. I have a BS degree in Finance, and I have been a stockbroker for the last 22 years. I would agree with Disney's defense on this matter if we also had assurance that the schedule would be restored to its historical levels, ONCE things improve. So far we have no official word from Disney on their reasons, economic or otherwise, nor do we have assurance that things would be restored if the economy is to blame. What we do know is that DVC members are Disney's most loyal and repeat customers. As in any business, you shouldn't mistreat your best customers, patients, or clients or else you face losing them. We as DVC members are now faced with a vacation partner who is giving added perks, incentives and discounts to attract guests to the other resorts, and WE are faced with losing our most treasured promise 'flexibility'. How ironic.

[Lisa P.]

Posted by Dean: Since DVC rooms should increase in price with the other WDW hotels, the price shouldn't go up at all "to stay the same". Inflation between resorts should cancel out and the points should stay the same.

Except that DVC's maint fees only rise with inflation. Other WDW resort hotel rates increase from a combination of inflation and increased profit margin for the corporation (and ultimately, the stockholders). Even in slower years when they've offered huge discount deals at Disney hotels, they've still raised their rack rates faster than inflation.

DVC actually pays the other resorts cash, a predetermined discounted rack rate. Probably more than anyone else pays at that resort the entire year.

Maybe more, maybe less. DVC may only be considering the maintenance fees they receive on those points. Perhaps, if that's true, a Disney hotel room costing 70 points would (in DVC's perspective) only cost the DVC'er $210-$280 with no hotel room taxes. They may still see that as a good deal at a deluxe, especially GF. If this is the way they are looking at it, I wonder if the Concierge Collection will be similarly affected at some point soon.

DVCers' purchase monies went for the DVC home property's development, marketing and profit, so they may not include it into a calculation of the value of points used for a non-DVC option.

Non-DVC options that held added value at one time may be been supported more by DVD when they needed them to boost earlier sales. With recently brisk sales and a large member base (who use the discounted options), DVD may not have concerns about reducing their support for them. In addition, if non-DVC options decrease, DVD could offer them again as short term incentives for selling Eagle Pines.

For those who see this as a personal disregard for DVC'ers, I disagree. DVC's board has to make decisions regarding the best fiscal management for its members. I don't think they are trying to stick it to people (though that may be an actual outcome for some) but rather try to keep fringe perks from adversely affecting the organization as a whole. They've always presented options as subject to change. The "family" thing has never been anything more than marketing hype... used by many successful businesses.

If someone bought DVC with the intention of using it as it was designed... a very flexible timeshare resort with a few excellent sister resorts... they would STILL enjoy their purchase. It's disappointing to see perks disappear but they really are just that - perks. What you are left with, is the essential purchase and it hasn't changed.

Interval International exchanges will be totally unaffected, since the points requirement is linked to stays at DVC properties. If members complain about dwindling opportunites for nightly stays, I wonder whether DVC will consider dual-affiliating with RCI. With their new RCI Points program starting up, it could offer more flexibility at moderate points costs for those seeking non-DVC nightly stays. That program is new but will likely grow dramatically over time.

[sgtpet]

DVC Dave

You nailed it on the head. DVC owners are the greatest fans of Disney. They have been willing to lay down a significant amount of money upfront to vacation for half a century. Since DVC owners have shown loyalty upfront, they are the ones that are being punished with the economic burdon.


I am annoyed at myself for almost making the plunge into DVC. I felt it would be a great vacation location and vehicle to have other FLEXIBLE vacations.


You folks are an owner of property for vacations. Disney has taken your money upfront to vacation for 40-50 years. You should not give a darn about their economic slowdown. The DVC owner has contributed greatly to the Disney Empire.

Don't put up with it. Voice your concerns. This is the only way to get satisfaction.

I will not buy now. But I don't want to see the DVC owners get jerked around.

If we took a graph of what was offered over the 10 years of DVC you would see a decline in benefits and ability for reasonable flexibility.

Good luck to all of you get DVC Owners.

[LauraS]

Dean asked me where the origin of my statement that perhaps Disney is concerned with DVC rentals. Well, for one, I highly doubt that Disney Execs are going to discuss their growing concerns over rentals with us, the members. As you mentioned, there's not a thing that they can do legally. There's no way for them to prove that the person renting isn't a close friend or relative of the DVC member renting out their points. So why would they even bother to bring it up with the members. Honestly, your guess that DVC rentals are less than one percent is just that, a guess. I don't think that any one of us has a clue to how much DVC rentals are cutting into Disney's bottom line. Perhaps rentals are cutting in just enough that a red flag has been raised and Disney is moving to slow this trend. We all know that they read these boards and auction websites where DVC stays are being auctioned off. Maybe the DVC has noticed a dramatic rise in DVC reservations being made for "friends and family" and have decided that a good deal of these *could* be rentals. Maybe they've decided that enough is enough.

And even if DVC rentals are at the one percent level, you don't think that Disney would vehemently protect that interest? I'm sure that they would especially go after that one percent in this economy where every percent counts. Disney protects "everything Disney" like a lioness protects her cubs. The newsgroup RADP had a logo that too closely resembled Mickey Mouse. The group was contacted and told that if those logos were worn into a Disney Park that anyone wearing one would be escorted from that park. I think that they'll protect loss of funds with even more force. It's almost like Disney is saying to us, "you can have your DVC resorts, but the Disney Resorts are *ours*". So anyone who thinks that they can rent points to a non-DVC member and undercut Disney rack rates, well, that possibility has just been taken out of the picture. Honestly, I just can't think of any other reason for Disney to raise the DC points by such a dramatic level when they are slashing cash rates like crazy to attract more business. Part of me thinks that it is because Disney already *has* our money. They've got us. We keep coming back. They need to fill the rest of their rooms now, with cash paying customers. Disney has also moved to slash cash rates at DVC resorts. Sure renting may not stop, but for now Disney is protecting their resorts and keeping the 4% (+) cash business at the DVC resorts. That may be all that they can protect legally, and it seems to me that they are doing just that.

For us DVCers I see this as bad news. I believe that this move has made the 11 month window even more crucial for DVCers. This move will make ressies on short notice tough to come by. Honestly, I had no intention of staying at any other Disney resort because I'm perfectly happy at the BWV. However, I think that Disney is really shooting themself in the foot with respect to future sales. The "flexibility" pitch for DVC salespeople is gone. And the "buy where you'd like to stay" motto has become more important than ever. I just don't like this trend at all. The longer DVC is around, the more Disney takes away. We are the biggest spenders and their biggest fans, and yet we truly are being treated like the Black Sheep of the Disney Fan Family.

Laura

[Joeblack]

I wrote my guide regarding this matter and today I got a response from her. I quote her:

"In regards to the Disney Collection point chart, they have restructured it. However, they have now added concierge floors at the premium resorts and that is probably why they are saying the points have raised. They typically would book a standard room with the old point chart. If you want a concierge room you would need to use more points,but the standard room pt chart is very similar to the old chart and did not go up 60%.You will be receiving new guide books at the end of the year and at that time they will have published the new Disney Collection point chart in writing."

Something similar happened with the marriott rewards program this year. Before, you could get 2 tickets, 7 nights of accomodation and 7 days of car rental anywhere in the world for 200.000 points. Now they changed the charts and you have to pay quite more to do the same thing. With he same amount of points as before, you only get to travel to less desirable destinations and get no car rental.

I guess once timesharing companies have sold their product to a large base of people based on promises of flexibility, they just start withdrawing privileges as they please.

Not Good!!!

[kem330]

I'd just like to illustrate what motivated us to buy in the program:
Last New Years we rented 2 rooms at the BC for $415/night plus tax, Jan 1 and 2 the rate went down to $289 plus tax total bill: about $2186.00. Looking at 2001 point chart, point costs at BC are 48 for 12/31 and 22 for 1/1 and 1/2 = 92 points. Our point costs come to about $5.50/point so it would come to about $506/room or $1012 for 2, saving us $1174.00. While it would cost us only 110 points to stay at the BWV 2BR ($605), we can't always plan 11 months out and this year we closed after the 11 month window, and are on a wait list.

We purchased plane tickets, because we were told there were quite a few hotel rooms available and planned to reserve them if the WL didn't clear soon. So now after I purchased my tickets, I find it will cost me just as much as cash ressies to stay at the hotels. This on top of the fact that we almost bought VB because we were told that with SSPL, we would have no trouble exchanging into WDW. Well thank goodness for this board, because we cancelled and bought BW resale and then SSPL was cancelled shortly after we closed. To top it all off, my WL did clear last week but my cell phone did not relay the message until Saturday and by 9am Monday MS could do nothing.

Maybe I've just had a run of bad luck (lost out on the lottery, too)
and next year will be better, but I have to say we are disappointed because for us these benefits were a motivating factor in our purchase. Sure it's a better value to stay at DVC (1/4 cheaper than cash) but 1/2 off at the holidays is nothing to sneeze at.

Thanks for letting me vent- This board has been absolutely fantastic- way more supportive and informative than Disney!
:)

[Lisa P.]

Posted by DVCDAVE: I have two promotional videos... the theme and 'buss words' are flexibility. Flexibility of time of travel, flexibility of destination, flexibility of accomodations, etc. etc. etc.

DVCDAVE, this has not changed within the DVC resorts, which is where you purchased. I know you are upset about this. I would be too. It's important to remember that they are not eliminating the flexibility of the core program. They are altering a non-DVC perk.

To the original poster... I'd book a cash room at GF now and look for discounts to change your reservation later. They've extended some amazing cash discounts through December 24th (and right through Christmas week, for some people who've got reservations that start sooner). Watch the Disney Resorts forum and Mouse Savers (http://www.mousesavers.com) regularly for additional discounts in later months. You're going during a slow time, despite the marathon (certainly FAR quieter than Christmas week!) so keep watching. Have a fun trip!

[kem330]

Joe, why don't you email your guide the points quoted to me by MS: Standard View Y&BC, Jan 1 & 2, 60 points per night (were 22 in 2001!) If that's not a gouge, I don't know what is.

Lisa, you've made a good point, there are great deals out there for the general public- so why are we being made to pay more??????? Why join DVC?

[WebmasterDoc]

DOC, you and other members continue to point to rentals as a cause for this manuver by Disney.

Actually, Dave, my point is exactly the opposite. I don't think rentals have affected this issue or DVC in any way. Since members have paid their dues, DVC knows exactly what operating capital they will have each year.

My point is that when members use points at non-DVC resorts, DVC must rent DVC rooms for cash to use those points. The receipts from those rentals are used to repay the exchange resort. If DVC resort rooms go unused - and thus those exchange points- then DVC loses money to pay for the exchange. This is the case for DC and Concierge Collection resorts- as well as the Adventure programs. When room rentals are down, the receipts for these DVC cash rentals is definitely affected.

From JoeBlack's report it seems as though at least some of the suggested increase is to reserve Concierge rooms at non-DVC resorts. Perhaps we should postpone the lynching until we've actually had a chance to read the charges and hold a trial.

[Lisa P.]

Posted by kem330: ...there are great deals out there for the general public- so why are we being made to pay more???????

You aren't being asked to pay more than the general public. The cash discounts are available to you too. Some DVC'ers like to pay cash for weekends and high seasons, to stetch their points. Even with the Disney Collection points increases, it seems to me that you are still being offered a fair price by using points... certainly less than rack rates, if you multiply the points required by your maintenance fees. It's just not the deal it was before and it underscores the real value of using points at DVC resorts.

Why join DVC?

Because you like the DVC resorts and plan to use them at least every other year, banking and borrowing in between trips. DVC has never been marketed as a travel club. Their emphasis has been on WDW and their core DVC resorts. Other perks were presented as perks. I don't think that's unfair.

What's unfortunate in my mind, is that so many people have perceived Disney's product as being so different from other timeshares with distinct avoidance of any association with the bad reputation of timeshares. In fact, it's a terrific program but still a timeshare. And as the little extra perks lose their value, that's a bit more evident. Yet, compared with the typical timeshare, it's still a top-of-the-line resort system and interval ownershp product. I guess it's all about perception and expectation.

[Terry S]

I was a prospective buyer. If BCV had already been on line I would have already purchased. I understand what most people on this board are saying regarding not really "losing" your flexibility.... yet! My major concern is that they are taking things away little by little. What are they going to take away next?

[wdwendyd]

Are we SURE that in 2002 these dates are really Adventure Season. It could be they are close enough to winter break that they are a different season's points. If so, we could be getting upset (and scaring people who could really benefit from joining DVC) away over nothing! Let's get all the facts before passing such extreme judgements!!

[PamOKW]

I agree -- We need more information about what's happening.
More than once I've been outraged about something I've read on the boards and then come to find out it's not all that bad. Maybe that will be the case again.

Members asked to be able to reserve Concierge on points. Well, we've go that now. Of course, maybe members didn't consider that they would then come up with a two-tiered system of booking the regular rooms as well.

I certainly hope that the point charts become availalble prior to the "end of the year". If they are completed now they should be made available. At the very least they should post them on the web site.

[kem330]

Lisa, I totally agree with you it is about perception and expectations. And quite frankly, I feel foolish for ever thinking DVC was different than any other time share. While I admit to naivete and gullibility, I do point some blame in DVC's direction because they heavily market their program has flexible and different than any other TS. Disney Collection and other exchanges are heavily promoted in their sales pitch and while I certainly don't expect things to stay the same, I don't expect a huge increase either. This is no aspersion to the many happy DVC members. Some of us just came into the program with different expectations (created in part by Disney's marketing). And as far as paying cash, frankly that's why I joined DVC, I laid out $12,400 + dues this year so I could have a trip at NY'S (it's the only time we all can go) and it would defeat the purpose to pay cash and not use my points.

Pam and Doc, as usual you are the voice of reason- I'm sure the whole year's point schedule won't play out this way. But for one member who had all their plans set it is very hard to swallow a 200% increase

[DVCDAVE]

OK DOC, I'll put away my rope until the list is released and I see for myself. But, from what I heard so far, I won't expect an early Christmas present.

[Joeblack]

I already posted my DVC guide's response. Here's Member Services' response. Guess next week we'll know what the real deal is.

"Although there is an increase in points for some hotels for some dates, there is
actually a decrease in some dates as well. For example, August 3, which is a
weekend day at the Disney's Animal Kingdom Lodge changed from 71 Reservation
Points in 2001 to 56 Reservation Points in 2002. The points charts for the
Disney Collection, Concierge Collection and Adventurer Collection will be on the
DVC web site next week so you can see all the points for 2002."

[kem330]

In other words, Disney Collection is only a deal in low season

[Bumpy]

Lisa P.
You hit the nail on the head about it being about perception and expectations. I for one expected much more from Disney than this current gouge. This timeshare is marketed and sold as a PROGRAM with benefits of flexibility (From start to finish). It is what they use to offset the lack of actual ownership. They used a point based system which has dramarically failed at other timeshares and they still sold it.Why because of flexibility and the DISNEY name. Did I ever consider another timeshare NO- I bought Disney only because I trusted their name and they promised me a flexible program. The history of the point evaluations over the past ten years was a factor that I looked at when making my decision. No dramatic increases the guide proudly exclaimed and backed up with point charts. True to their word. Disney can no longer make this claim honestly anyway, and I can't help but wonder what other claims will go out the window as well. I was going to do an add on in two weeks while on vacation but my guide will not be able to make the same options available to me as when I purchased so I will not be buying any more points. I might even sell my membership out of distrust at this point.

[Lisa F]

Originally posted by Bumpy
I might even sell my membership out of distrust at this point.

Although I am angry and disappointed at the higher cost to stay in the disney collection resorts, I wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face on this one.

Unless you bought your points to stay exclusively at disney collection resorts (which I don't think most people do, even with the old point levels it wouldn't be a great idea) then you are STILL getting what you paid for, and that disney CAN'T take away from you... you're protected by the contract you signed. Personally, 40 years of vacations at a place like the BWV is a good enough reason for me to not sell my membership in a fit of anger... it's definately something i'd regret later.

Lisa

[Terry S]

Well, I have been sitting here thinking about this. What I am coming up with is that I will probably buy less points than originally planned. I had hoped to by into DVC as basically a pre-paid vacation for the next 41 years since I am not the best person for saving for things. I would probably stay at my home resort at least every other year if not more. I had wanted the option to do the DCL and stay at some of the other on-property resorts and possibly go to Hawaii PRE-PAID. But, if this is not longer a GOOD VALUE for the option, what I think I will do is just buy less points and pay cash for the other trips. It is not what I had hoped for but I am old enough to realize I don't get everything I want in life and if something looks too good to be true, it usually is.

[normr]

I see Joe Black has already posted a DVC response which is the same one I got, but I just wanted to make sure with my e-mail message to DVC, that they know we aren't happy with this and other changes they may want to make similar to this, and I still plan to write a regular letter to DVC management so they are aware moves like this could easily damage their reputation.




Re: Increase in point cost for Disney Collection
Date:
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:54:16 -0700
From:
Disney Vacation Club <members@disneyvacationclub.com>
To:
Norm Rechtman <normr@iname.com>




Hello Norm,

Although there is an increase in points for some hotels for some dates, there is
actually a decrease in some dates as well. For example, August 3, which is a
weekend day at the Disney's Animal Kingdom Lodge changed from 71 Reservation
Points in 2001 to 56 Reservation Points in 2002. The points charts for the
Disney Collection, Concierge Collection and Adventurer Collection will be on the
DVC web site next week so you can see all the points for 2002.

Regards,
Susan

[Chuck S]

Another possibility is that 2002 is the 100 years of magic celebration, and Disney is hoping for and expecting huge crowds. By having such a big point increase the are hoping to have more rooms open for cash rental than to DVC members on points.

[sgtpet]

Cmon. Chuck.

The good days are unfortunately over. Be happy with what you have. With nearly all of the current inventory sold out, they Disney have the advantage. Nothing in this word ever comes back to where it was in the past. I was so close to buying and because of this I am out.

That is a shame.

[DVCDAVE]

CHUCK S-- I think that would be wishfull thinking on Disney's part, as the point chart did NOT change for the Millinium Celebration which was very successful.

[sgtdisney]

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally did not buy into the DVC as an investment. As time goes by the value will decrease due to the end of the lease approaching. A timeshare is never a good investment, or at least it is not meant to be one. I bought into the DVC in order to basically lock in a style of accomodation for 50 years at a resort that i truly love.

I have been a DVC member for almost 10 years now, and I have yet to use the Disney Collection once. I don't even think I have given it a passing thought. The only time I would probably consider it is when I go to Disneyland. Personally, I didn't buy into the DVC to stay at other non-DVC resorts. I like the DVC resorts and have never understood trading in more points for a smaller accomodation. This again, is just me. I am sure others found this to be a valuable feature. I do think that everyone is getting all in an uproar without seeing any official documentation from Disney itself. Until I get a new point chart from them, I will wait to pass judgement on their decision. :)

[DVCDAVE]

SGTDISNEY-- I am glad to hear you will be unaffected. I on the other hand was sold a package of 'flexibility' by my guide and the Disney marketing material. I have only been a member for one year, but I was glad to have the DC as an option when we were unable to get a DVC room for one of our days this past March. The DC makes a good safety net, on top of adding to the flexibility of the DVC package.

Apparently, I am not alone in my view point about the DC. The letters went out last Friday notifying many mambers who had booked a DC resort for 2002 with the actual point cost. Many assumed the 2002 point chart was similar to the prior 10 years. For the last few days it has been nearly impossible to reach MS as the phones have been jammed by these members trying to make other arrangemnts. We don't know how many are thanking MS for their generous point reductions, but clearly this demonstrates many do use the DC as an option.

[sgtdisney]

I am sorry that the changes with the DC may effect you. The important thing to remember is when you purchased into the DVC you purchased a real estate interest in your home resort. I don't recall anywhere in the contract that Disney was obligated to provide the Disney Collection and at a certain point structure. If your salesrep sold you the DVC and the DC as something that were interchangeable and a guaranteed thing, then you really should report them for improper selling practices. No where in my documents does it say the Disney Collection is a guaranteed thing. For all we know, at some point, they may pull the program entirely and there would be no recourse. Again, I restate, I think this is getting way to out of hand without official word from Disney at this point.

[Bumpy]

Lisa f.
I will sell a great deal of my membership because I have way to many points to stay at DVc resorts. I bought more points to have greater ability to take advavtage of the flexibility the program offered. GUESS WHAT that flexibility has gone out the window. I love Disney but I also know that I will get pretty sick of staying in BWV, OKW WLV over the next fourty years. I love those resorts but wanted to be able to use the program to also enjoy the newest resorts as they emerge. How is everyone going to feel if they build the Venecian Resort and it costs us a rediculous amount to exchange there and so on. If the word flexibilty was not wriiten all over the documentation and spued by guides every other word than I would not have bought . I trusted that Disney would never go back on its word and in my eyes they have! (not Legally of course their too smart for that). Now, that breach of trust in my eyes is what is prompting me to consider trashing the whole thing. I now don't believe they will keep their word about other parts of the membership that I enjoy. What if as the resorts age and people get sick of them there is only 10 years left no flexibility to stay anywhere else and a great deal of people stop paying to remain in the program. They have little to incentive to keep paying high maintanance fees what will Disney do. We I am sure have all said to ourselves Disney wont let the resorts go down after all its Disney! I don't trust that anymore.

P.S. Disclaimer: If the point charts come out and are not as bad as reported here so far- I take back everything I just said!

[DownNeckBoy]

I have been truly fascinated by the numerous postings concerning the change in the points structure for 2002. Let me first state that I belong to the faction that considers a stay outside of the DVC to be an unwise utilization of your points. I understand the flexibility issue but still belive that you are almost always better off using an AP rate for a non-DVC resort and paying cash rather than using your points. That having been said, the rise in points cited for the marathon weekend did seem extreme and unfair to me, so I called my guide and amde him aware of the discussion.

He was surprised by the rise in points as well and promised to investigate and get back to me. True to his word, he called me back in fifteen minutes. His explanation is that the points have been adjusted for "seasonality" as well as to allow for different room categories. This change is supposed to better reflect the actual rates paid for the various hotels throughout the year.

He also gave me a few examples to pass along:

Beach Club 7-01 327 points
7-02 258 points

Grand Floridian April 2001 474 points
April 2002 387 points

AKL October 2001 217 points
October 2002 267 points

The point is that not all hotels are going to increase by the percentages that prompted the initial post. I know that it is no consolation to Covman or mkkim, but it is better than what was being theorized on this forum.

My guide also advised that the point charts should be on the website by next week at the latest. Once that is done, I'm sure there will be further discussion, but at least there will be something for all to review before deciding to chuck your investment in the DVC and discouraging potential members.

I hope this has been of some help to all of you.

:smooth:

[Bumpy]

Downneckboy,
You are too rational! LOL



Nomr, Just curious about the Royal Garden Hotel that you stayed at. I exchanged some points for that hotel for this dec. Did you enjoy your stay there? any helpful tips about London? thanks in advance!


DVCDAVE, I think we bought our memberships for pretty much the same reasons. No one is disputing the value of DVC resorts but that was not all the program had to offer and I would not have paid the HIGH price to lease a property even if it is Disney. Iwas offered more and expected more as you did! I agreee with you on this one

[Covman]

Thanks for the updated DownNeckBoy.

I as stated earlier (about 5 pages ago:) ), I was hoping that my typical bad luck hit right on one of the highest increases possible and it sounds like I did. I agree that once we see the entire list we can better decipher what has been done.

Let me also note that I have also historically viewed the DC as an expensive use of points and only booked this particular ressie as a one-time special treat.

Once I see the entire point sheet, I will join in the discussion of pros and cons.

Meanwhile I still need to finalize my accomodations for the marathon, so I'll jump back in later.

[Dean]

Interestingly enough, I just did the quick math and i'm not sure how often this holds, but it seems like Disney has pretty much decided that points are worth $5/point. and that's been about it all along when you look at most discounted prices like cruises, DC and CC. DCL is an exception just because the prices are so high, if you compare to other similar quality cruises, it's still around $5 pp.


The only reason I can think of is if DVC has negotiated to "pay" disney full rack rate on all of their rooms and only gets back some percentage of whatever disney can rent the equivalent DVC room for.
And that's what they do. They get like a 10% discount on rack rates and I'm sure WDW takes a cut of any rentals in addition to the housecleaning fees.
If Disney did something to indicate that this move was a "temporary tightening of the belt" to deal with the softening economy, it would be one thing. Instead it's perceived as disney basically cutting out one element of flexiblity in the program... Do you think the points for DC have a chance of going back down again? No, at least not much and not quickly.
I could bet that they will raise the non Disney collection points and then eventually make it impossible or very costly to stay at a non home DVC resort. Can't do this. Not because of the commitment to other owners, but because of the commitment to the current owners at the other resorts. They could do it at the new resorts that aren't selling yet. They could even double the points cost and then reduce the price pp to compensate if they wanted though I don't think they'll do it that way. Count on BC and then EP to be much higher per unit than BW/WL.
While it remains TRUE that the benefit is still there, the SPIRIT of it is NOT. It's always been that way for most of us so this will not change the habits of most members. I suspect most members don't use the program. I'd be curious as to what percentage of points in the last couple of years have gone to the DVC resort vs the other options broken down by type (DC, DCL, CC, II) but would be it's far less than 5%.

[Dean]

Originally posted by Lisa P.
Posted by Dean: Since DVC rooms should increase in price with the other WDW hotels, the price shouldn't go up at all "to stay the same". Inflation between resorts should cancel out and the points should stay the same.

Except that DVC's maint fees only rise with inflation. Other WDW resort hotel rates increase from a combination of inflation and increased profit margin for the corporation (and ultimately, the stockholders). Even in slower years when they've offered huge discount deals at Disney hotels, they've still raised their rack rates faster than inflation.

DVC actually pays the other resorts cash, a predetermined discounted rack rate. Probably more than anyone else pays at that resort the entire year.

Maybe more, maybe less. DVC may only be considering the maintenance fees they receive on those points. Perhaps, if that's true, a Disney hotel room costing 70 points would (in DVC's perspective) only cost the DVC'er $210-$280 with no hotel room taxes. They may still see that as a good deal at a deluxe, especially GF. If this is the way they are looking at it, I wonder if the Concierge Collection will be similarly affected at some point soon.

While DVC's fees will only rise with inflation, I suspect that the rooms at the other DVC resorts will do the same. Regardless, the increase in value of the room should match the increase with similar properties. Though I don't consider OKW a moderate by any stretch, I suspect that's where it competes for rentals, while BW would compete with Deluxe properties and WL somewhere in between.

Lisa, I've discussed many of these points with Matt Gibbs when he was a VP. DVC does pay a discounted rack rate, at the time it was about 10%. They must negotiate that at the beginning of the year and pay cash for the rooms. They then rent out the points they get and use that to pay for the rooms. Since there are currently more discounts than ever, DVC will be paying a rack rate and getting a discounted rate in return.

[Dean]

And even if DVC rentals are at the one percent level, you don't think that Disney would vehemently protect that interest? Laura, I don't think for a second that raising the points for DC is related to anything other than DVC needs to get enough cash from renting the points to pay for the rental of the destination resort. If rental prices or percentages are down, it will take more points to generage the same income. I can't even fathom a correlation with a change in the DC and a member renting out DVCj, even if it were 50% of the points in question. I think to say that member rentals were even taken into account with an increase in the DC points is giving Disney too much credit for attention to detail. DVC sets the points that are charged, not WDW in general. The only contributing factor from WDW is the cost of the rooms in $$$$.

[kem330]

Downneck thanks for the report. What disturbs me about all the DVC responses is all the reductions are in low season. April next year is after Easter. July and August of this year turned out to be low attendance times. It's not that I expect it to be given away at high season. I can understand that this year, Jan 1 and 2 may be busier than normal. But the 12/30 and 12/31/01 rates at YC are 48/night. Going up to 60 seems a little extreme after New Years day. And going from 22 this year to 60 this coming Jan quite extreme! I feel like they are throwing us crumbs with these comparisons. There's no proportion to raising 200% at high season and lowering other times by 10- 20%. Yes I believe we need to see the whole picture, but I still don't understand how it will change the fact that on some days in Jan points increased 60 - 200%. And why are we being berated for wanting to use the exchange? As previously stated, 41 years at the same place can get monotonous to some people. We should all be concerned with the erosion of benefits, whether we use them or not. Remember, there are no guarantees that you will be able to exchange between DVC resorts either.

[chris1gill]

No problem here DVCDAVE, call up Shontell at the Timeshare store & she'll come pretty close to getting you 70.00 per point, selling your contract, so you to can run....

I think this is a bunch of hype about a problem that MOST DVC'ers will never have a problem with.... I have my 41 years of vacations at BWV's, and let me tell you I'm more than happy to have it!!!


Originally posted by DVCDAVE
Honestly, knowing what I know now, and Disney's LACK of honesty and forthrightness, I wouldn't buy DVC. I wish I never bought DVC. Frankly, I paid $67 per point, and I don't even think it is worth half that now that they just about did away with any possibility of doing a Disney Collection exchange.

Don't walk away from DVC, RUN !!!!

[kem330]

Chris, I'm glad your happy, but if your were sitting with 10 airline tickets for Orlando 12/30 - 1/03/02 and found out that -oh sorry it's going to cost you 216 points per room/4 nights instead of 140, I think you would be a little disturbed. Maybe I'm the only one in this predicament. So who cares about one or two members. I would hope that I would feel badly if this happened to anyone, not just myself. Maybe most members never stay at DC hotels. But wasn't it part of the deal knowing you could if you needed to ?

[Dean]

Originally posted by kem330
Chris, I'm glad your happy, but if your were sitting with 10 airline tickets for Orlando 12/30 - 1/03/02 and found out that -oh sorry it's going to cost you 216 points per room/4 nights instead of 140, I think you would be a little disturbed. Maybe I'm the only one in this predicament. So who cares about one or two members. I would hope that I would feel badly if this happened to anyone, not just myself. Maybe most members never stay at DC hotels. But wasn't it part of the deal knowing you could if you needed to ?
Hopefully you were informed when you made the reservations that the points could change, I know those that made the DCL reservations without the points table were so told. Regardless, I'm sure none of us expect this drastic a change and it is a great difficulty for some in this situation and none of us should take your problem lightly. Good luck and we'll be thinking about you.

[PamOKW]

Kem -- I feel your pain. It doesn't seem as if the possibility of drastic increases just "came" to DVC. At the time you were booking they could have given some indication, even just to say, "There's a chance the the program will be completely revamped resulting in changes to the point system."

Still waiting to see the point chart but I don't get how there's a need for big increases in some seasons and reported decreases in others. Either they need to generate more income to cover the room costs or they don't. Maybe they are doing one-for-one comparisons....what a room at BWV brings in January vs. the cost of a deluxe room in January rather than an overall pool. Who knows what they're thinking?

One thing that has confused me. Originally, I thought you weren't able to book a room at a Disney resort unless the same time was available at a DVC resort. People are talking about booking Disney resorts when the DVC is unavailable. Maybe that has something to do with the need to raise the points? They've expanded beyond just one-for-one trades.

[Towncrier]

In 1997 my wife had planned to use our DVC points to get rooms at Disneyland Paris during our two week visit to friends in Antwerp. We made plans, got tickets, and called MS to find out when the point charts for DLP would be published so that we could make the appropriate reservations. Well, as it turns out, our vacation just happened to fall just ahead of Easter, so of course the points necessary to get two rooms went through the roof. My wife was in tears when she found out that all of our plans had gone to (you-know-what).

In our case there was a happy ending. Someone at MS asked us if we had an Amex card and suggested that we check for any special deals from them. It turns out that there was a promotion going on and we ended up paying just $79/night for each room, and that the promotion included park admission for our children. The vacation was wonderful. We ended up "selling" a 5 night vacation to some friends for $5/point which helped them out and totally paid for our little visit to DLP.

The moral of this story (at least for us). Don't ever use last year's point charts to plan next year's vacation. You might be sorry. For those of you who have been burned, I feel your pain.

[kem330]

Dean, Pam and Towncrier, Thanks for the support!:) I did expect points would increase somewhat but when your guide tells you nothing much has changed in 10 years, and then they go up 200% in one year, it is a bit of a shock. I had no intention of setting off mass hysteria. Just concern about changes in DVC privileges. Well I think I've beaten this subject to death. We'll all have plenty more to talk about when the schedule is published next week!!;) In the meantime, I think I'll be looking at putting my relatives in the Swan/Dolphin if the wait list at BW doesn't clear (sure not crazy about having to come up with the cash, though!).

[NFalzon]

There is not one bit of lost flexibility--you are still as able to turn your DVC Vacation Points into Reservation Points via a simple call to Member Services. Is it possible that they have reassesed the price they pay compounded with the funds recouped in regards to the current economy? I would hope they do, and I'm confident that they have.

You want to mention flexibility? I say bravo and thank you to DVC for opening the possibility of us locking certian rooms/views/services.

When I first looked at DVC, the point charts for Disney Exchanges limited the number of hotels beyond the current limits (no Moderates) and the exchange rates were very high. I quickly realized that DVC was DVC--and the options and perks are nice, but I was locking in four resorts. When I restarted looking, they gained two resorts (one near completion: WLV and one starting: BCV), and to boot, the Disney Exchanges had come down in cost.

And now the economy has turned south, and they cannot recoup the money for our DVC rooms as fast, and that is fine--over the next 40 years we will probably see at least 4-5 full economic cycles which will have a direct impact on those point charts. Some will lead to elimination of perks, others will lead to expanded options.

But folks--in 40 years--there might be no need for the Disney Collection as the number of DVC Resorts continues to grow much faster than the rate os stand-alone resorts.

Disney is not trying to screw DVC in any way, shape or form--it is one of the most successful businesses that the entire corporation runs--and we are their best clients.

Nick

[prplcrzy]

For those of you who are upset I am very sorry, and for those of you who made reservations and the point values increased I am also sorry.

I hate to rain on the parade, but I had my member stuff handy because I wasn't sure what everyone was getting so upset about and still don't.

I read the member benefits guidebook before I purchased and weighed the things that said they were optional and asked if I could live without it if I purchased DVC. I said yes to the stuff and that's why I bought.

I am sorry if you didn't read the materials before purchasing but here is a quote from the guidebook-

" The collection is being solely offered by DVD and intender for incidental use by DVC Members and their guests. Participation in the Collection by a DVC Member is voluntary. Subject to paragraph 12 below, DVD reserves the right to limit or eliminate, in its sole discretion and without further notice to DVC members, the ability of a DVC Member to exchange the use of DVC Accommodations for Disney Collection Accommodations."

That is the first paragraph under policies and guidelines.

The last paragraph is this-

" The collection is offered as an alternative to staying at a DVC Resort, but is not necessarily a discount program. In no event shall the value of the collection be deemed to exceed an amount equal to one dollar.

It seems to me the program is getting too popular, and instead of taking it away they have increased the point usage to make it unattractive.

They are actually doing the right thing and everyone is ready to sell off their memberships. This is a signal that while maybe not a lot of members are using it, more that anticipated in the cost models are. Be glad they didn't take it away all together.

It was never meant to be a value, just an option.

If you spent more than $10,000 without reading the fine print, I am sorry about that but you shouldn't take it out on them. They are not trying to screw you, it seems that just the opposite is happening and everyone is ready to burn the mouse at the stake for being a heritic. They obviously thought this could happen, and when it did they will raise the point values until it either meet the cost model or they will discontinue it.

This is a business, and like any other it is in business to make money.

[Dean]

Originally posted by prplcrzy
It was never meant to be a value, just an option.

I agree with your post although I've always contended and told Matt Gibbs this directly, "offering options without value is insulting and unreasonable" and that's the way I've always looked at the CC, DCL, DC, etc. There are exceptions like certian holidays, points you'll use or lose, and the DCL in certain situations.

[Disney Adventurer]

I'm jumping in here a little late but if the concern from Disney was members renting points, there's other ways to stop/limit that. As a current member of RCI, if I were to give my exchange to a friend, they require a Guest Certificate for $49. Disney could do the same thing. Require ID of members at check in. If the member wants to sell points Disney could then charge a "surcharge" for non-DVC members staying on DVC points at DC resorts. This would reduce the points selling to DC resorts, but if a DVC member wants to stay, then no surcharge. I think Disney is well aware of all there options; therefor, I believe they want to reduce all DVC points stays at DC resorts, no just stop point selling.

[Dean]

Originally posted by Disney Adventurer
I'm jumping in here a little late but if the concern from Disney was members renting points, there's other ways to stop/limit that. As a current member of RCI, if I were to give my exchange to a friend, they require a Guest Certificate for $49. Disney could do the same thing. Require ID of members at check in. If the member wants to sell points Disney could then charge a "surcharge" for non-DVC members staying on DVC points at DC resorts. This would reduce the points selling to DC resorts, but if a DVC member wants to stay, then no surcharge. I think Disney is well aware of all there options; therefor, I believe they want to reduce all DVC points stays at DC resorts, no just stop point selling.
Legally they can't do any of that. Disney can't prevent you from renting what you own as long as the area is not zoned in a way to prevent rentals. Obviously WDW won't do that, they have a few rooms to rent. Just like RCI doesn't get involved if you rent out the week you own. Whether they could block non home resort rentals might be a different matter but they'd have to change the POS.

[prplcrzy]

I really don't think rentals are the issue here, I think that 60,000 members is the issue and more once the other resorts come on line for sales. I really think they are trying to slow down the DVC usage of the other hotels.

Dean, I think that the reason that these options have no value is to prevent a lawsuit if things like this happen or it is taken away. It is a shame they have no value but again if you read the guidebook, the language states that much and this could have been foreseen. I expected something like this when I bought, I never expected that it would cause a panic and upset so many people so much.

Personally this whole thread doesn't even bother me since I still don't understand why anyone would want to use their points to stay in one of the regular hotels when you can stay in the DVC units. I would only use the other hotels as a booking for a use it or lose it situation. I'll probably never have one of those.

[kem330]

prplecrazy: like you I carefully read each document, but the pollyanna in me had the naive notion that Disney was a company that played fair. Sure, I knew they could take it away or change it, but surely not without a lot of advance notice or some gradual increases and some justification. All of sudden , Poof, 200% increase Jan 1 and 2. What were they thinking? It certainly is a politically unsavvy move to abruptly change a benefit without
explanation or plenty of notice. Yes, legally they protected themselves, but verbally they were telling a much different story when I bought! I would rather use my points at BWV, but at 10 1/2 months they were already gone, so DC was my back up plan in case WL didn't come through.

[Johnnie Fedora]

I have read the majority of this thread (thanks, 50 pages really gave me reading for the train home), and still have a hard time understanding why DVC pays rack rate for the rooms of the DC collection. Really, does it cost Disney $350.00/night for staffing and all the ammenities to house a family for 20hours at a deluxe resort?? I would venture a guess that Disney makes a tidy $$$$ sum on their hotels, even with this years discounts.

I certainly don't understand the ins and outs of these corporate affiliations etc. But, if DVC is truly its own entity, then shouldn't it be able to negotiate better than rack rate for it's members???

I do agree with the majority who feel that variety was/and is a major selling feature of DVC. It is heavily promoted on the video and in the book. I don't think I would be using DC much, maybe a night or two. Having it as a "reasonable exchange" was an attraction, and part of the reason we planned on buying extra points. Currently, we're sitting on a 50 pt add-on, and eagerly awaiting BCV......Gonna have to think this through a little more!?!?!? I was originally against buying DVC several years ago, but rethought it, and purchased this year based on the many options available in the DVC program. I don't regret it, as I love the VWL, but large increases in point costs will definetly alter the total number of DVC points we will be adding on.

Maybe this is just the bad news first and DVC will have some good news too (Sorry, just being a little shall we say....Polyanna). Personally, this DC point thing would be OK with me if members were offered a "peace offering perk" (are you out there Mickey????). Might I suggest 35-40% off annual park passes!!!

:eek:

[prplcrzy]

Kem,

I don't know who your guide is, but it sounds like you should be mad at them. I was told that the points on the DVC resorts could never change but that they could be used in other places. I was also told that this could change nut currently these are the places that they could be used. My guide didn't make it sound like it was a sure thing, but she didn't sound the alarm bell either.

These are sales people, it is their job to make it sound good, not warn you of the pitfalls. That is why they have the guidebooks for when you purchase.

I don't agree they are playing unfair since they disclosed this in the guidebook, but I most certainly agree this was not the smartest move they could have made and it is a poor way of doing it.

The Boardwalk seems to be the most popular DVC resort out there and OKW seems to have no trouble booking within the seven month window. It just depends on where you want to stay and if you want to stay at the Boardwalk, you need to plan way ahead because of it's popularity.

I would call my guide and give them an earful if you were lead to believe something that is not true.

Good luck!

[prplcrzy]

Johnny I'm with you on the pass thing. I would love to see AP's for DVC members at FLA resident prices and Premium AP's for AP prices!!!!

[vernon]

Several pages ago someone noted that Disney "values" points at $5 per point. I'd like to point out this is where they will "buy " points and therefore that is a level at which they deem they can make a "reasonable" opperating profit on those points. Not what they think is "fair value"

Like many people I wouldn't use the WDW hotels out of choice BUT due to the set up of the system and the flexibility inherant in that system there is a possibility that at some time I would HAVE to use the hotel options to use my points if I didn't want to sell the points on. We're all in the same boat on this , so take off the rose tinted specs people. There is no point in sitting back and saying " well I always book 11 months out and I read the booklet so it doesn't effect me" It is perfectly possible that ( particularly if you own at a smaller resort) one year ( due to work family or health commitments ) you couldn't book exactly 11 months in advance and find that your resort has no space. Wait till the 7 month window and find again that ALL the other resorts are full. Where is your out? To use ALL your annual allotment on a three night stay at one of the WDW hotels? IMHO that isn't helpful or really a serious option.

Due to the way DVC is set up i.e a FLEXIBLE points system that opperates SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY IMHO the opperating company is HONOUR BOUND to allow for that fact there is the POSSIBILITY that a large enough percentage of the owners will want to take their vacation at the same/similar times. Obviously it is impossible for the opperating company to GUARANTEE EXACTLY what that "bail out" system is for the duration of 50 years but in order to sell a workable system you have to understand you are DUTY BOUND to offer a realistic alternative. Having hotel rooms available at 6,7 or 8 times the "cost" of what you're selling is not a realistic out for the people you are selling to.

I will accept that NONe of that is legally enforcable because of the way DVC contracts were drawn BUT Disney sold on its name, traded on it's name, used it's name. Not the name being a byword in entertainment giant but on Disney being a byword for Quality, service and a company that you can TRUST in. IF Disney wishes to continue selling DVC it should realise that moving the goalposts in such a manner is going to damage it's credibility, tarish it's name (which is the biggest selling point it has) and ultimately it hurts it's ability to sell at the best price.

IMHO it's bad business not to honour your commitments when you plan to sell on trust in your name. Without doubt Disney is not treating it's current owners with the respect ( informing them ahead of time) nor is it treating them fairly ( removing benefits without replacing them with an arguably similar benefit) It could be very easily viewed that Disney's attitude is " we have your money so we don't give a &#** about how you feel". If they don't care enough about how that appears to their current owners, they should care about how it looks to their future owners, or are they THAT ARROGANT ??

[Dean]

Originally posted by prplcrzy
I really don't think rentals are the issue here, I think that 60,000 members is the issue and more once the other resorts come on line for sales. I really think they are trying to slow down the DVC usage of the other hotels.

Dean, I think that the reason that these options have no value is to prevent a lawsuit if things like this happen or it is taken away. It is a shame they have no value but again if you read the guidebook, the language states that much and this could have been foreseen. I expected something like this when I bought, I never expected that it would cause a panic and upset so many people so much.

Personally this whole thread doesn't even bother me since I still don't understand why anyone would want to use their points to stay in one of the regular hotels when you can stay in the DVC units. I would only use the other hotels as a booking for a use it or lose it situation. I'll probably never have one of those.
We are in agreement.
I have read the majority of this thread (thanks, 50 pages really gave me reading for the train home), and still have a hard time understanding why DVC pays rack rate for the rooms of the DC collection.
I too agree and asked this question of Matt Gibbs. He gave me the impression that since they were contracting for the entire year and the fact that the other side knew it was a captive audience, they were stuck. I told him I expected a better negotiated rate but obviously my words had the opposite affect.

Several pages ago someone noted that Disney "values" points at $5 per point. I'd like to point out this is where they will "buy " points and therefore that is a level at which they deem they can make a "reasonable" opperating profit on those points. Not what they think is "fair value"

Vernon, maybe we're saying the same thing. It's been a couple of years (maybe 3) since I made direct financial evaluations of the CC and Cruise options and this was before DCL. At that time I looked at about 4 or 5 CC options and the Alaskan and Caribbean Cruise options. I took the advertised prices for the CC resorts I could find, not the rack rates, and looked at the standard discounted fares for Holland America and Princess and in every case the value per point was almost exactly $5 pp. Of course you'll find a holiday or other time of the year that's not blacked out and you can't find specials and that will provide a different analysis. The DCL appears to be a special situation in some instances more than others, but it's because the prices are so high compared to the industry, not because it's such a good overall value.

[Doctor P]

As others have said, I am waiting to see the entire points schedule before I make a final judgement. The Disney resort seasons do not match up perfectly with the DVC seasons. In fact, the dates of the Disney resort seasons have tended to vary quite a bit around the holidays each year. Though the rate of increase would still be relatively high, a BCV villa room going from 48 pts. to 60 pts. (under the assumption that the holiday period has just been extended to include through the weekend after New Years), would be a 20-25% rate of increase (there are actually two acceptable ways to calculate the rate of increase in a price). Given that the point prices have not increased, according to an earlier post, since at least 1999 the annual rate of increase is more like 7-8%. I certainly would not have wanted to be in the position of my fellow DVC'ers who had the point price increase sprung for their upcoming trip without anticipating such a large increase, but I also am not yet convinced that the sky is falling (it might be, but I want to have more facts before I start worrying). We had a thread a little while ago about the drastic increases point prices for DCL cruises that, frankly, turned out to be a bit of much ado about nothing once all the facts were in. Being a Pollyanna, I think it is nice that those who want access to the concierge levels of the deluxe resorts may now assure themselves such access with their points.

[normr]

That was exactly the point.

[kem330]

Please see my post on update. I was wrong increase only 37 % ( points went up from 22 to 30/night Jan1 and 2. I'm relieved to be wrong. 37% is still a jump though.

[prplcrzy]

Vernon, you have to be kidding right? I mean do you really think that the DC is the only flexible part of this whole thing? Listen, I really feel bad for the people who rely on this program, but if you argument is that if due to work commitments or family health issues there is no other flexibility I have to completely disagree.

I mean they haven't taken away banking or borrowing points have they? They haven't taken away being able to trade your points with interval international have they? They haven't taken away the DC have they? You aren't locked into one week to vacation unless you can trade it off with someone else, are you?

The answer to all of these questions is no, the only thing they have done is raise the point value (price) on something they must not have been showing enough of a profit on.

Do you think that your local restaurant is duty bound to keep their prices the same? If they did don't you think they would go out of bsiness if they didn't make enough of a profit? Don't you think that the Disney management is duty bound and Honour bound to a certain rate of return to their shareholders. If something isn't working for them they just increased the price to decrease the demand or get a better return.

I again have to point to my earlier post and remind those reading this that the DC while offered as an option because it was negotiated at the time, was never intended to be part of the program. If it was sold to you this way then you have issues with your guide, not Disney. I'm sure if a particular guide sold this tooo you as a perminent part of the program then he or she is in some pretty big trouble.

As for "rose tinted specs" If you believed something that was not in writing when you plunked down $10,000, I am trying to figure out who was wearing them at the time that happened.

I have to say that I am not happy about any increase in points or price, I just don't understand how anyone can be upset about them doing this since it is stated that they can do this. Just because I will probably never use this option doesn't mean that I have to like this increase. I can understand why it was done and since they thought this might happen and even thought enough to cover themselves by stating they could eliminate it, shows that they are trying to make it work so that people can still have this option, and not saying "screw them, they can't do this anymore, were not making money on it."

I agree it is terrible that they did it this way, they should have given more notice. But they didn't and that is probably because someone made a mistake. I have never felt that they are putting the screws to me, but sometimes people do make mistakes.

I will hold them to the contract and I know they will hold me to it as well. I have no problem with that. If I didn't do my homework then I will be unhappy with things that appear unfair.

[normr]

Some people will let Disney walk all over them, by raising points for DCollection stays and getting away with it, then what do you think they'll do next, raise the points for CC stays and then raise the points for DCruise, then what options are left, banking points, and the nightmare that can bring, like when all the people borrowed 2000 points in 99 so they could could the last vacation in with passes the place was booked solid.

[SwampFox]

Some people will let Disney walk all over them, by raising points for DCollection stays and getting away with it....

Are you also upset with the fact that some other dates were decreased in the DC for 2002?

.......or is that not worth mentioning?

like when all the people borrowed 2000 points in 99 so they could could the last vacation in with passes the place was booked solid.

Yeah, those free passes were really a bad deal. It was really surprising anyone would actually use those passes during the last year of that program.

[prplcrzy]

normr, you are kidding right? You are really mad that everyone borrowed points to use the free passes that they were given for buying DVC? You are mad at Disney for that? Really?

Do you get upset when you can't book a reservation at a restaurant for a popular holiday because everyone else already did? Do what most people do, book at another restaurant. If that restaurant is more expensive, well that is the price you pay for wanting to go out to eat at that time. The same applies at DVC. This is the real world and these things happen in the real world.

All I have been reading is how Disney is walking all over people and I have yet to see concrete proof of this from anyone. These point charts are not even out yet and everyone already has made up their mind that Disney is the evil, manipulative devil and that we were all sucked in by their lying and cheating us.

How about some concrete examples to prove your point and not just bad mouthing something with out valid examples to back it up?

You are speculating about the future with no proof from the past. Do you invest in the stock market that way?

[coolshells]

Lets not all panic, Points for Disney's Paradise Pier in Ca went down. Just booked for 19 pts down from 22 last year!! So pack your bags CA here we come.
Don't give up on Disney so fast, we have one of the best timeshares on the planet.

Smile it improves your face value.
Dale:pinkbounc :)

[normr]

The point I was trying to make was that in 99 the DVC resorts were totally booked because of added reservations with people getting in that last pass vacation and if they take take away another booking option (DCollection) by making the points to book unreasonable then it may make it even harder to get reservations when you need them, (more people using just DVC resorts) whereas before people used the DCollection option, in the future people aren't going to freely use up most of their points to do so.

[baileybrad]

I don't understand why the DVC is doing something wrong if, in some folk's opinions, they offer options that are not a good deal. I mentioned on a different thread that when we toured back in "93 that we were told by our guide specifically that the DC was another option to making reservations but that it was and is not a good/value-wise use of points and is not inflation protected in a similar manner to the DVC resort--there was only one at the time.

For those that are being led to unhappiness and concern by mostly non-members I say shame on you. For those members that planned on using the DC as primarily a way to use your points...enjoy, but it has always been a lousy way to utilize your points. And for those members that really believe that the DVC is being completely dishonest and you are now extremely unhappy....I would consider selling and then rethink the position once this, imho, uncalled for "uproar" calms down. For those considering buying into the DVC or any timeshare program, weigh your options but consider the quaility of the management company and their track record and for god's sake do not necessarily consider a timeshare purchase a wise financial investment. You get a bit of protection from inflation but many have quite convincingly argued whether you actually save any money over the long haul. It is a personal decision because you are the one coming up with the money.

[Richyams]

I really don't care. I have never used DC and probaly never will. Even if the points went down so that an OKW studio was the same as a GF or other room, I bought to stay in the large units, I would still never use DC.

[vernon]

prplcrazy, I must be confusing you so I'll have one last go at explaining how I see the situation.

No the WDW hotels aren't the only flexible part of the program, but they are the only other offering at WDW.

I CAN NOT SEE ANY CIRCUMSTANCE I WOULD CHOSE TO USE WDW HOTELS INSTEAD OF A DVC HOTEL, but I can see where I would be forced to if the cover all statement "subject to availability" meant I couldn't get a booking on a DVC property.

BUT the offering of WDW hotels are the ONLY part of the whole scheme that offers an alternative to DVC hotels IF in the very unlikely event that the DVC hotels are all full. I don't want to have to spend 250 points for a 3 day stay IMHO they isn't a serious alternative. I DON'T WANT TO BANK MY POINTS AND GO NEXT YEAR, I want a vacation each year, at WDW, that's why I bought into the scheme.

There seem to be a couple of people understand my point. Basically DVC rooms and other WDW hotel rooms cash prices should increase or decrease at a similar level ANY surcharge increase on the swapping between is unreasonable. IF WDW hotels are effectively priced out of use then there is a risk that it will be impossible to use our points at WDW and IMHO that is what most of us bought into. If I'd wanted to swap into II I'd have bought a different product ( because it would have been cheaper).

People's attitude seems to be " well I'd never want to use that so I don't care" I feel the correct attitude is " I can see a circumstance that I could be forced ( against my wishes) to use that overflow system therefore I should at least take note of it's demise"

To use your own restaurant analogy if I'd paid $5,000 to a restaurant so I could have a steak dinner (or replacement of equal value) every night for the next 10 years I'd be PROPERLY MIFFED if I was told "we're out of steak, you can have a bowl of cereal because that's now the same price as the steak was 9 years ago" .

At the risk of labouring a point. An increase of 8% per year means a room that now costs 25 points would be 543 points FOR ONE NIGHT in 2042. IMHO there should be no "inflationary price increases" on point values.

If this turns out to be ONLY reshuffling i.e. the total costs per year remains roughly constant, I'm happy and I'll revert back to my quiet mild mannered Clark Kent persona. If not I'll make a hell of a lot more noise about it and so should all of you. JMHO

I pray that what I'm trying to say , I've managed to put into words that are understandable to the majority.

[prplcrzy]

To use your analogy about the steak dinner, you have it backwards. No one is saying they are out of steak. They are saying with your steak you have a choice of mashed potatoes, baked potato, rice or vegetables. All they are saying is that the rice cost ten cents more because rice went up in price this week. And the steak that you paid $5000 for was choices of several different kinds of steak and that sometimes to keep the product fresh we may not have availability on on or more of the several kinds of steaks that we usually offer. If you paid $5000 for this dinner and had this understanding from the beginning I don't understand what the problem is. While very few other posters may agree with you the vast majority do not, maybe because they had the proper understanding of the timeshare they purchased. It sounds like if you are inflexible as to what you want that the DVC was not for you and you should have purchased a week at another timeshare that you would never have to fight about getting your week at.

I really feel bad that you are upset about this whole thing, but The point charts haven't even come out yet and you are upset about something that may well be even cheaper point wise during a week that you may or may not use. Where you get these figures of 250 points for a three day stay is beyond me since the charts have not even been released yet. If this is the case at an isolated hotel for an isolated weekend, I may not be happy about it, but that's the way it is. If this causes a seriou problem for you then you should consider selling, because you will not be happy if they make other changes during the course of the next 41 years. If this timeshare becomes disappointing to me I will sell it, but the only way that will happen is if I get the feeling they are not living up to the spirit of the contract I signed, not what I think they should do because I think it is wrong.

I really feel bad if this is what you rely on but since it is not the timeshare that you bought, I do not understand how you can be so upset. I am not happy about any increases but as long as I don't feel that I was deceived, I will not get that upset about it. If you feel that you were deceived, you should take it up with your guide or their supervisor, they obviously did not do a good job explaining the DVC to you. If this is the case then I really feel bad for you and would love to help you recoup your investment.

We just have to agree to disagree and move on. We just will not understand each others point and I do have some comfort knowing that quite a few more people understand my point of view than yours. I have to disagree that your point is understood and accepted by the majority. Just read the posts, their are actually only a few people that believe as you do.

I really hope things work out for you and you may actually be surprised at the charts once they come out.

BTW, the DC is not an overflow system, it is an option that you can use until they decide it is no longer an option for you to use.

[SwampFox]

Basically DVC rooms and other WDW hotel rooms cash prices should increase or decrease at a similar level ANY surcharge increase on the swapping between is unreasonable.


Why???

I'm not among those who understand your point, but thanks for trying to force feed me again- it is a difficult concept to swallow.

I think that a surcharge is very reasonable, since DVC has to rent the points used in order to pay for the non-DVC room. If it becomes more difficult to rent those points at certain times of the year, I expect the cost to be higher. I don't have any problem with DVC "charging" a users fee to do this and would be upset if my dues were raised to cover the usage of non-DVC resorts by others.

I think of the point differential between DVC and DC resorts as nothing more than a users fee- those who choose to use this option are the one's who will pay for the extra expense. It is just like the extra charge for those who choose to have daily housekeeping. If you feel the cost is too high, then don't use the service. If the value is to your liking then that is your choice.

I have used the CC and found that the value was well worth the point cost. That was my decision. If the point cost was much higher I might not have tried it...or I might have looked for an option which used fewer points. Someone else may never use CC (or any of the programs) and can be perfectly happy with choosing a DVC resort.

[vernon]

Please don't feel sorry for me, I love DVC, I'm very happy with what I've done with it and I hope to make a lot more use of it. That doesn't mean I'll accept ANYTHING that comes along if I think it's wrong or if I think it does the membership a disservice. The people at the greatest risk are those tied to school holiday ( which fortunately I'm not).

Please forget the steak analogy that just muddying the already murky waters :)

Lets stick with some things we know and what we're trying to talk about.
At some hotels ( I believe the moderates) they used to be 25 points per night (weekdays), all year round. Now there will be a high season ( 28 points) and a low season (25 points) that is an increase in total no matter how you work it. IF that is also the way the rest of the collection works it is a rise OVERALL. An overall increase is unreasonable and damaging to all of us IF IT IS CONTINUED on a regular basis.

Where do I get the figure of 250 points for a three day stay ? You (and others) seem to say it is acceptable for the cost in points of a DC room to rise on an annual basis and many people have said 8% per year isn't a bad increase. Let's take an example of a three night stay in a moderate ( low season) so 25 points per night is 75 points in 2002. At 8% annual inflation that will be in 2003 81 points, in 2004 87 points, in 2005 94 points, in 2006 102 points, in 2007 110 points etc etc ( do I have to continue? anyone with an Excel spread sheet can work out that in 20 years it will be over 300 points for that stay and in 2040 it will cost more than 1500 points).

I hope that you are prepared to concede that to accept "inflation" in the points cost means that option will be completely unworkable in just a few years?

My other point is that for ANY FLEXIBLE system such as DVC to work THERE HAS TO BE AN OVERFLOW. IF just 25 % of the owners decide they want to visit in June and July of a certain year what happens? I understand that is unlikely, but it isn't impossible. I understand that legally Disney can't say it will be there "for ever" but it's obvious (to me at least) that they accept there has to be something in place to absorb such a possibility. Otherwise the system collapses. I have never used DC and I don't ever intend using it, but it is an important part of the DVC system. If it didn't exist at usable levels then DVC as a whole is undermined.

In the middle ages the majority of the world thought it was flat. They were wrong, but felt happy being in the majority.

Swampy , I don't have a problem with a surcharge ( it's already in there) I have a problem with the acceptance it is OK for that surcharge to go up in an inflationary manner. Does that explain it?

[SwampFox]

Swampy , I don't have a problem with a surcharge ( it's already in there) I have a problem with the acceptance it is OK for that surcharge to go up in an inflationary manner. Does that explain it?


Verny, please show me some evidence of this inflation you keep harping on. It would sure help your statements.

You are trying to base your whole bitter pill (I'm still having a real tough time choking down the concept you keep pushing...and pushing....and pushing) on the report that there was an upward change for 1 month at the GF - and totally disregard the report that other dates actually went down.

As for the "surcharge (it's already in there)" comment, do you not agree that there may be times when DVC points are more difficult to rent (in order to pay for the non-DVC use)? ...or do you think DVC (and thus the members) should have to foot the bill for any inability to rent the rooms during a difficult economy? Where do you think the funds come from to pay for the non-DVC rental?

To pick out one piece of data and apply it to the whole equation without also acknowledging the other data is pretty senseless. If you insist that your equation is appropriate (as you have repeatedly) then we should use your same scenario except use the % of downward change. That makes your entire point pretty valueless- not much reason to complain about an increase in a DVC benefit, is there??

"The Sky is Falling, The Sky is Falling"-- Chicken Little (and Verny) ;)

[normr]

There are a few people who want to ridicule some who are expressing their views, if we feel that it is wrong for DVC to be constantly doing things that affect or change the program, then I beleive Pete has given us the right to express our views.

When DVC keeps making little changes in various programs which hurt us, then even if there a few of us that aren't happy with it, we have the right to post our complaints.

At what point are you going to finally get upset that DVC has changed the intent of the program, when they stop or curtail pool hopping, raise the points for exchanges, etc.

[SwampFox]

At what point are you going to finally get upset that DVC has changed the intent of the program, when they stop or curtail pool hopping, raise the points for exchanges, etc.

Every opposite viewpoint is not a personal attack. If Vernon, as a moderator, feels anyone has violated any guidelines, I suspect he knows what to do to correct the situation.

It appears that some disagree that the "intent" of the program has been changed (I certainly do). Programs like pool hopping and exchanges are already clearly identified as "subject to change" in all DVC documents. So until the contractual components of DVC are changed, many may not get upset at all, as they already understood that these other options could be changed.

My point above, is that there is no evidence yet that any change has taken place which "will hurt us" and that reported evidence (from the same source that reported the increase) about some dates requiring fewer points has been conveniently ignored in the explanation about the terrible things DVC has done.

A little balance is appropriate. If some are allowed to post negative comments and doom, then others may also post evidence to the contrary. It is then up to the reader to make the decision about how they are affected by the supposed changes.

It's sort of like an election- you can listen to BOTH sides and select which appeals more.

[prplcrzy]

No one is ridiculing anyone, just pointing out that the sky is not falling.

The point is that people are complaining about something that hasn't happend yet and as Swampy pointed out, no evidence to back it up.

Swampy summed it up with the point that using one piece of data to prove a point of systematic change and taking privilages away is not proving anything except that the sky is really not falling unless there is evidence to prove it.

Did I get it right Swampy? You don't mind me calling you Swampy do you?

No one is ridculing someone elses point of view, just pointing out that you should reserve judgement until the facts are in. The sky isn't falling until it really hits you in the head and you can see it was actually a piece of the sky and not an acorn from the tree above.

[prplcrzy]

Awesome last post Swampy (he says as he offers his hand high in the air for a high five!!!)

[vernon]

From my previous post

"IF that is also the way the rest of the collection works it is a rise OVERALL. An overall increase is unreasonable and damaging to all of us IF IT IS CONTINUED on a regular basis."

Two IFS in there and I hope that explains that I am open to the idea, indeed hoping, that this isn't the case but on initial viewing there seems to be more "ups" than "downs", even those that don't mind the increase accept it is in the region of 37 % which as someone mentioned that is the first move in 4 years I've gone with 8% per year.

There have been many people that think an "inflationary increase " is acceptable I don't.
Maybe if I put it in terms of the number of nights at OKW a moderate room "costs " it would explain why I think it is ridiculous to accept the idea that inflation is acceptable. I ( and many others) bought DVC as a hedge against future hotel costs, it's not much of a hedge if you allow "inflation PLUS X % increase".

For this point I'm using a studio. Disney in some shape or form has the chance to rent out the DVC unit for whatever they get. Personally I can't see ANY CIRCUMSTANCES they don't break even on 3 nights use of DVC for a moderate. Swampfox can you use a spread sheet? If not I'll email you the individual increases for each year. This is what it means for a "acceptable rate of 8% per year increase"

2002 one night in a moderate = 25 points = 3 nights at OKW
2005 one night in a moderate = 31points = 3.5 nights at OKW
2010 one night in a moderate = 46points = 6 nights at OKW
2020 one night in a moderate = 99 points = 12 nights at OKW
2030 one night in a moderate = 215 points = 26 nights at OKW
2040 one night in a moderate = 465 points = 58 nights at OKW

If you accept that "inflationary" rises are acceptable you are saying that Disney needs more and more DVC nights to break even, they don't !! Do you now understand why I don't think inflation should come into DVC/DC swaps ? Do you really think that swapping 12 nights at OKW for one at a moderate is acceptable? or is your limit 26 nights, or 58 nights? Does that format of explaination work for you?

I'm not saying the sky is falling, I might be saying there is a BLOODY GREAT BIG ROCK COMING YOUR WAY and if you don't open your eyes/ take your head out the sand it might squash you/a lot of us. If you look and are happy with the tragectory, fine.

[prplcrzy]

Vernon, I appreciate your point but you are making assumptions that have not happened and are not proven by past point charts. If you had a history, I could accept those numbers, but until then you have absolutely no basis for these numbers you are posting and I think I was just hit by an acorn.

Ouch!!!

[PamOKW]

The only thing we can basically see from historic point charts is that until now a workable trade system was set up between DVC and WDW resorts. The swap of "X" DVC nights for "X" resort nights was working. It was also allowing the resorts to provide the DVC guest most, if not all, of the time with the best non-Concierge/suite room available.

All we know so far is that some major adjustments have been made to this system for the first time since the start of the program. Three levels of accomodations have been instituted. The good news is that a person will know they are trading "X" DVC points for a garden view room and won't be disappointed. We also have the option for Concierge that many have requested.

However, it is prudent to not to just take the changes at face value as being in our interest but look over the charts and be sure that we continue to be treated fairly. I am hopeful that we will. However, if something raises a red flag, discussion here and with DVC should be enouraged not discouraged as some kind of "disloyalty" to the program.

[vernon]

I'm perfectly willing to accept that the rises may not be as bad as first reported ( or hopefully not at all). Are you prepared to accept that an annual inflation in the cost is a very dangerous concept to agree to , however tacitly we do so? Now it seems EVENTUALLY I have managed to explain myself sufficiently. Did putting it into OKW room nights help?

We CAN only make assuptions on what we're told. I'd like people to be aware of what it means if our worst fears are confirmed. If not I'm a happy bunny and I'll go back to sleep. But IMHO by ignoring,sitting back and waiting for nailed on confirmation we miss the opportunity to raise public awareness. I just hope Disney takes the opportunity to make SOME statement about it's intentions and reasons for any dramatic changes it makes.

[SwampFox]

Vernon, I'm perfectly capable of using a spreadsheet. Thanks for asking!

even those that don't mind the increase accept it is in the region of 37 % which as someone mentioned that is the first move in 4 years I've gone with 8% per year.

However, you are projecting the reported increase for a full year for reservations- when in fact the only increase I've seen reported was for the month of January. Vernon, can YOU use a calculator? By my calculations the 31 days in January comprise less than 8.5% of the year. Therefore, my spreadsheet suggests that it is inappropriate to apply the reported 37% increase for January to the entire year and thus derive an 8% ANNUAL increase for the last 9 years. Maybe we should look at the increase (or decrease) for the ENTIRE year before we make any sweeping statements. I suspect it will be far less than your spreadsheet suggests. Are you suggesting that no change is ever appropriate??

I will, however, keep an eye out for your "BLOODY GREAT BIG ROCK". My head has never been in the sand.

[vernon]

I'm "suggesting " to accept an annual increase is inappropriate.

As you can use a spread sheet. At what level of annual inflation would you consider inappropriate?

[SwampFox]

I would certainly find that a true 8% annual increase in DC rates would be troubling and will heartity applaud your efforts if that is the case.

I can still find that we have had no increase for a number of years now and IF there is an increase for next year, it is due to unusual economic conditions and NOT due to some malevolent plan by DVC. To apply a fragment of information as a basis to condemn any program is not a sound method, IMO.

As for accepting an annual increase, there may be some cultural differences which I don't understand at all. I am quite used to annual increases in most all aspects of the economy where I live. Perhaps the economy is much different where you live. We have enjoyed very low inflation here recently, but it has been much higher in my recollection.

There are few economic aspects around here which don't continually increase. DVC has increased most aspects of my annual fees since I joined. Even though I've enjoyed the slight decreases recently, I come to accept those with the expectation that dues may also be higher next year. As long as any increase in my dues is below 15%, I'll accept it- as I've already agreed to that condition contractually. Those who have joined recently may have never experienced an increase in their annual fee, but it does happen and I accept it.

[PamOKW]

I agree that the sky is not falling yet and may not be once we see the point chart. However, people have every right to be concerned and question "why" whenever there is a change to the system. The home resort privilege can be reduced to as little as one month and the banking and borrowing suspended or discontinued at any time. This is all clearly explained in our documents. If the day comes that either of these are instituted I would not berate those who want an explanation by saying it was clearly explained in the documents. That's all that I think Vernon is asking for in this case as well. Why were changes made?

[Johnnie Fedora]

I doubledisney agree with you!! Thank you for taking the time to do the math on the "feared" DC point increases. I certainly hope that the DC points ups and downs mostly cancel each other out. I guess we will all have our calculators out later this week if the DC point charts get posted.

I feel that any large change in the program from what's described in the members guide book does warrant a critical examination, and possibly, yes, some criticism. I expect to use my points at DVC resorts only, but I also realize that there may be times when I might want (or need) some other options, like the DC. It is in all of our interests to have a program that contains a wide variety of choices, is the most flexible and affordable as possible. That way, the program will fulfill the Disney dreams of all DVCers. I may never pay for valet parking, but if it was a perk for DVCers that has been curtailed; it weakens the program overall IMHO. :mad:

I am perplexed by some of the negative reactions to the "negativeness" on the boards. Since the program was/is sold as being very flexible, many people purchased, each for their own reason (and yes, I already know that I purchased a real estate interest in my home resort).

I like to read the opinions of all. I believe that Disney can do wrong. I don't think they are going to always put DVC member interests above their corporate interests. :earseek: :earsboy: :earsgirl:

Maybe my tote bag didn't contain that special "proDisney" aroma therapy packet.:) ;) :p :D :crazy: :confused:

[Johnnie Fedora]

I tripleDisney agree with you!!!

[vernon]

I'm glad I'm not the only person to find it troubling IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE THE CASE. That's all I was EVER trying to say, Sorry it took me so long to get my ideas over. I'm glad we got there in the end.

I have no problem with increases in dues in line with inflation ( or even slightly over) , this is to be expected as the things that dues pay for, by definition, will rise in cost. That to be is obvious.
BUT DVC is a "pre paid holiday" /" hedge against future costs" that was the reason ( I believe) most people buy into the scheme. The whole idea of paying up front for ( in my case) 50 years of vacations was to take inflation out of the picture. In DVC rooms ( at least) you are guaranteed against inflation, so why should the concept of "inflation proof tools" be so alien to many people? That's what DVC is !

On other WDW hotels rising compared to DVC ones we'll have to agree to disagree. I see no reason to accept DVC rooms should lose value compared to other WDW hotels. UNLESS there is a serious fall in DVC standards. The parity should remain. If the GF goes up by 10% then ( roughly) what DVC can charge for cash bookings should rise by a similar amount. There is no reason that it should cost the equivelant of 5 nights DVC accommodation to book a moderate let alone the more ridiculous levels that would arise in the unlikely event of that level of increase continuing on an on going basis.

Johnie I LOVE that second to last smilie :D

Time for bed for me. See ya soon :D

[Dean]

I wonder what this thread would have looked like back in 95 or 96 when DVC adjusted the points for certain seasons. I can hear the cries now. I knew it COULD happen but my guide promised it wouldn't. They've never changed them before. I only bought enough points to stay in X size for Y nights for Z time of year. I can hear the threats of I'm going to sue, sell, gripe, write, call or what ever other type of protest one can think of.

If I've given the impression that I don't care if they adjust the convenience options, I've given the correct philisophical impression. What I do care about is that if even one of my fellow DVC members was counting on using the program and are now "priced out" I am truly touched and sorry.

Overall DVC should increase in value about the same rate as the other WDW hotels. There may be other factors though like more of one type of resort, newer resorts, special amenities that will affect the equation, frankly either way. The system that controls this convenience option is part of the club function and is paid for by the members dues. That means we all pay for it even if we never use it and that's ok, whithin reason. The only difference in points between rooms (DVC or not) should be the difference in price that DVC rents out the unit given up (represented by points) vs what DVC pays for the destination resort which for DVC to DVC is zero. The reason the points need to be different for DC, CC, DCL is that DVC is discounting many of the rooms they rent out and may not even rent out all of them AND is paying a relatively high price for the DC rooms. Matt Gibbs told me that he could lower the margin considerably by banking mostly holidays with the points in questions but that wasn't how they wanted to function. On that I agreed with him.

Therefore any increase, or decrease for that matter, only has 2 factors that DVC must consider. The cost of the destination room and the average income from rental of the points so traded. The only way to vary the costs are to pay less for the DC room in comparison, rent out the rooms for higher costs and/or rent a higher portion of the traded points over time. I hope DVC is able to negotiate a better deal for 2003 and beyond than it sounds like they have for next January. As noted, we still haven't seen the overall points tables but it sounds like it is somewhat negative from what we've heard so far. I also bet we're all not as far off in our overal assessment of the situation as it sounds in this thread.

[SwampFox]

I don't think they are going to always put DVC member interests above their corporate interests.

Disney has a legal obligation to DVC members to honor the contracts we have with them. No more...no less.

Disney has a fiduciary obligation to it's stockholders (the owners of the company) to earn a reasonable rate of return.

The two concepts are both in force. There are times when we, as DVC members, seem to expect that both aspects are owed to us. That is not the case. But, as long as the DVC legal responsibility is met, we can choose to use the optional features or not. There is no responsibility for Disney to supply optional features which everyone will find suitable.

I may never pay for valet parking, but if it was a perk for DVCers that has been curtailed; it weakens the program overall IMHO.

Valet parking has never been a DVC perk. It was always free for everyone using it. It is still free for DVC Members at VWL and BWV. It's tough to lose a perk which never existed. The Valet change is another example of a user fee and will only affect those who choose to use the service.

[PamOKW]

Splitting hairs here maybe, but valet parking at BWV has been free to all WDW resort guests who show ID and was a charge (I think $6) to all other guests after 5:00 p.m. DVC continuing to keep the valet parking free for DVC members at DVC resorts was a good thing, showing goodwill but not required.

Dean -- your post makes perfect sense. If DVC had to deeply discount rooms this year (which it appears they did), but still had to pay close to rack rate to the other resorts, then a point increase makes sense. It's disappointing to think that the Walt Disney Company couldn't make accomodations within their own resorts to provide "discounts" to DVC member pricing but it sounds like that is probably the case. I just hope it is the economy that is devaluing DVC rentals rather than the practice of members undercutting Disney rates on the rooms. If it's the economy, eventually we should come back to parity in pricing for DVC versus other WDW resort rooms.

[Dean]

Originally posted by SwampFox


Disney has a legal obligation to DVC members to honor the contracts we have with them. No more...no less.

Disney has a fiduciary obligation to it's stockholders (the owners of the company) to earn a reasonable rate of return.

The two concepts are both in force. There are times when we, as DVC members, seem to expect that both aspects are owed to us. That is not the case. But, as long as the DVC legal responsibility is met, we can choose to use the optional features or not. There is no responsibility for Disney to supply optional features which everyone will find suitable. Agreed and the DVC board has a legal and fiduciary responsibility to act in the best interest of the DVC, not WDW. Do I think for a second they're going to sell WDW down the road for DVC, NO, but it must be heck balancing the issues sometimes. This is why I feel there should be regular members on the board, at least in an ex officio nature.

[LauraS]

Makes perfect sense to me Pam. Yes, DVC had to deeply discount rates at our home resorts and yet pay WDW rack rates for WDW resorts. That accounts for the rise in some categories of DC points by Disney. I still think that one of the main reasons that DVC had to deeply discount DVC room rates is due to the increase in rentals to the public by DVC members. I really think that DVC members who rent to strangers are hurting the rest of us. It's a tough one. I'd hate to advocate asking higher than 10 bucks a point because that brings people out of the woodwork looking to make a buck. But if Disney can't sell our DVC space because we are selling it much cheaper than they are, well, it surely seems that they have to make up for it somewhere. They're making up for it with an overall increase in the DC and DCL points. We are decreasing the value of our own personal interest in DVC. Now, for me it really isn't the end of the world. I really have no plans to use our points in the DC or the DCL. But it is clear that Disney is having more and more difficulty selling the DVC space that is exchanged out for CC, DC or DCL. Why? Because *we* are selling rooms at HH, VB, OKW and BWV much cheaper than they can sell it for!! Surely, it doesn't hurt the individual DVCer who is renting out that space. In fact, in many instances they could be making a profit. However, when one can rent a studio for 40% less than what Disney is asking, well why wouldn't they? I know that there is some risk involved, but in a lousey economy, well that's a risk that many would take. Those DVCers who feel the necessity to rent out their points, well, I hate to say it, but the price per point may need to go up.

Laura

[SwampFox]

and the DVC board has a legal and fiduciary responsibility to act in the best interest of the DVC, not WDW.

Exactly! The DVC Board has a responsibility to it's members NOT to lose money on a program for some to stay in non-DVC resorts. Changing the point costs to reflect that is the result.

I don't expect we'll be privy to hard data to demonstrate the figures and computations to defend any changes, but the current economic situation suggests to me that DVC has found it difficult to "pay" for the non-DVC rooms at some times of the year and some change was needed to uphold it's responsibility to members.

The fact that there has been little or no change for so long- until the current downturn, certainly seems a logical explanation for some change.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to have some member involvement with the DVC board. That provision is allowed, but may prove difficult to accomplish.

[Johnnie Fedora]

I stand corrected on the specific details of my vallet parking example. I was using it to illustrate the point that when "perks" disappear, :( it lessens the overall value of the program, whether I utilize that perk or not.

I really really like perks! :D :D :D :D :D They make me feel appreciated and valued as a customer.

[vernon]

Dean I agree with you 100% on members being on the board in some way shape or form.

[PamOKW]

Exactly! The DVC Board has a responsibility to it's members NOT to lose money on a program for some to stay in non-DVC resorts. Changing the point costs to reflect that is the result.

I agree. And I also feel they have a responsibility to protect the membership at large from the negative effects of reducing the demand for DVC rooms by allowing a secondary, cut-rate public rental of units by members. I'm not sure if this is happening or not, but I would hope DVC monitors the situation and will find a way to curtail the practice if it negatively effects the ability to use the trade option of the program.

[CarolMN]

"Exactly! The DVC Board has a responsibility to it's members NOT to lose money on a program for some to stay in non-DVC resorts. Changing the point costs to reflect that is the result".


Now I'm confused. Who bears the risk of DVC rooms renting for less than rack rate? Is it Disney or the DVC members? Earlier in this thread I suggested that if there is a deficit from this program, that our dues would rise to cover it. Most others who have posted seem to believe that Disney takes the risk, and that our dues only cover the operating cost of the resort. Does anyone know for sure?

If DVC members' dues must cover the deficit, I am all for the point increase to minimize the chance of a significant dues increase. If Disney covers the deficit, I understand and also support the requisite increase. I do not expect a business to offer a product or service that loses money or fails to provide an equivalent benefit to the business.

As has been said here several times, I am reserving judgement on the purported magnitude of the change until the entire chart is posted.