Is Disneys Park Ethos changing?

[paulde177jb]

May I start a debate?

First off Ive been to WDW a few times now - a long way from England by plane! And I love the place - albeit with a few reservations. I reckon that there has been a change in the way the parks operate. When I 1st visited, it seemed there was a synergy between the parks, hotels, the whole shebang. I think that has changed. WDW seems to have been hived off into budget groups with their own profit margins that dont always work towards the same goal.

You would not believe the pre-advertising that took place in the uK for the AK. I visited within 8 weeks of its opening. IMHO the park was half baked, very few rides, far too many peole/crowded so that you couldnt stop to take in all the minutae people supporting AK mention in the boards. MY party was very disappointed.

Wen went back when Kali etc was opened. It still didnt amount to much.

Disney would point to how MGM et all grew since opening with new rides etc from humble beginnings. That wont wash. Theyve built so many hotel rooms on site they havent kept the attractions in line with the visitor numbers.

This was proved by IoA. Im no coaster nut - but I have to admit when it opened it was a virtually complete, rounded park. All the themeing, well laid out, millions spent on rides & universal will reap the benefits from a hard start. As I said, I dont like coasters, but Poseidon, Cat in the Hat, Spiderman, JP all showed Disney a very hard lesson.Build a complete park & see the WOW factor in visitors from day 1.

I wiull be off to Orlando for my annual visit in December, & Disney worry me. Mission:Space is years off. Other attractions are either cheap midway rides or off the shelf coasters (RnR).

I used to go to Disney because it offered something else to a funfair. Their rides told stories, immersed the whole family in a story. They really need to get back to that & quick.

So what is my solution?

1. On site transportation. Forget the busses. Whwen they built AK they shouldve put the Monorail/light rail link to MGM/EPCOT in then as part of the AK cost. They cant charge extra for it. They can save $millions in bus costs & drivers & fuel. You already pay $$$ to park there - its supposed to be part of Walts idea/vision.

2. Sort out the 20k lagoon. Build Atlantis or whatever. Not a hair-raiser of a coaster for mad teenagers only - a truly thrilling ride for all the family. Whether ytou are 8 or 80 you can go on it. And why not Herbie in MK? A Herbie car ride would be great

3. Leave the Movie Ride alone. Its got years life left - just update a couple of the parts of it.
MGM needs little done to it. Dont put the Disneyland Indy car ride clone in - all the parks just become the same then.

4 Do Beastly Kingdon at AK. But not just coasters p-lease!

5. EPCOT> well weve got Mission coming so I think thatll be all thank you. Id like Figment back, but please JIYI open until Mission is open. You cant close any more in futureworld.

6. Downtown Disney. Whenever I go there there are big queues in the restaurants. Sign of too many people perhaps? I really think it needs a couple more.

7. Water Parks. I dont use so I cant comment here.
I know this all costs lots of dosh but just think - DIsney is spending $$$ hand over fist & WDW is subsidising it all. If its not careful, the jewel in the crown could fade quickly with disgruntled guests. I want to still be visiting in 15 years time. Lets hope the management get onto this.
Sorry for my rambling.

Ill now sit back & wait for the opposite views!

[swinginevilmike]

No opposing view here...I like your suggestions

[DC7800]

This may not be much of a debate, because I agree with most everything you said (and I'm certain many others will also).

I may be in the minority, but I don't mind the bus transportation. I have to figure it beats the hassle of driving (from hotel room: walk to car, drive to theme park, short walk to end of row, crowd onto parking tram for ride to main entrance, walk to main gate - reverse the process to leave). Now don't get me wrong - I LOVE the monorail (I take monorail rides just for fun, sometimes), and really want it expanded to all parks (including the water parks) and at least the major resort areas. In the meantime, I'll take the bus over the car.

I hadn't though about it, but you are right that JIYI shouldn't really be closed at the same time as Horizons/Mission:Space. Besides, if they rush the rehab of Figment's JII by next summer, it might be another disappointment. I'd rather wait for a quality attraction, though JIYI is bad enough I'm also anxious to be rid of it...

I also agree the GMR should not be gutted (I took really extensive video last week, just in case), and the 20,000 lagoon should not be permitted to sit empty any longer. This is prime real estate. In the "real world", the monetary loss from letting this "property" sit undeveloped would look ludicrous.

Downtown Disney is one of my favorite places in WDW (Okay, I still call it the "village"). Much as I enjoy the West Side and PI, I'd like to see the original Marketplace expanded with more shops, restaurants, amd entertainment (probably have to grow into the parking lot; maybe along the front of PI?). Could Disney be on the same line of thought here?: A large parking lot section is walled off along with Sir Edwards Haberdasher (being demolished for expansion, so a CM said. Anyone know anything???). Come to think of it, build an above-ground monorial station and you can use the bus areas for shops. Such growth would disperse crowds over a wider area, making the place seem less crowded than it really is.

Looks like I rambled too...

[roymccoy]

Don't go to California Adventure, then Paul! You'll have a heart-attack! Talk about wide-open spaces and
off the shelf rides. The worst of WDW is still better then the best of DCA.

Roy :-)

[DisDuck]

By the way, every ride in WDW and DL that was not built completely from scratch, and I mean the tracks, motors & cars carry the label Made By Disney Corporation (ie. Disney has factories and machines shops that built electric motors, ride mechanisms, etc) is OFF-THE-SHELF.

Could we please lose that term. It is only used in a derisive manner to put down Disney. Does anyone think that IOA was built without off-the-shelf. That Universal has the machine shops building ride mechanisms.

Criticize the themeing if you want of a particular ride, criticize the type of ride but not that Disney contracted out the actual fabrication of the mechanism. There are companies out there that have alot more experience and are better at building the mechanics than Disney.

As for AK, I have never spent less than 3/4 of a day at the park each of the 4 times I have been there. I go 'slow' thru the park as I believe it was designed to be done. Leisurely pace not commando.

[Sarangel]

Well, Here goes...1. On site transportation. Forget the busses. Whwen they built AK they shouldve put the Monorail/light rail link to MGM/EPCOT in then as part of the AK cost. They cant charge extra for it. They can save $millions in bus costs & drivers & fuel. You already pay $$$ to park there - its supposed to be part of Walts idea/vision.
They actually looked into this, but the cost of all those drivers, gas, busses, etc. was *much* less than the cost of designing and building a monorail or light rail system. I don't mind the busses either, though they're nowhere near as romantic as the boats or the monorail. I would mind even less if they took some of that money they saved & spent it on new attractions & rides.

2. Sort out the 20k lagoon. Build Atlantis or whatever. Not a hair-raiser of a coaster for mad teenagers only - a truly thrilling ride for all the family. Whether ytou are 8 or 80 you can go on it. And why not Herbie in MK? A Herbie car ride would be great I believe they are working on both a lagoon ride and Beastly Kingdom, but these things take time. Wouldn't you rather they took the time to do it right than just dashed off something to fill the space. I'm less sure about Herbie, but that's a personal bias... My parents took me when I was 4 or 5 & I had nightmares for weeks afterwards about our car taking off with me (and not my parents) in it.

I suspect that most of us here on the Rumors & News board are in favor of having Disney improve the parks, the problem being that (with a few exceptions) we don't work for Disney & even those of us who do aren't in a position to make these things happen.

Sarangel

[johare]

Off-the-Shelf is a perfectly acceptable term to describe generic unimaginative attractions. DisDucks definition of off-the-shelf is ridiculous. A company doesn't have to manufacture every little part of an attraction in order for it to not be considered 'off-the-shelf'. Where would you stop? Do they need to make all the nuts and bolts internally too? Should they mine their own steel and chop down trees for the wood? Would you call a ride like Spiderman 'off-the-shelf' simply because they bought the motors and lightbulbs pre-made?!?

Maybe we should call them 'GENERIC' attractions instead though?

[Another Voice]

“Off the shelf” does not have anything to do with the components and has everything to do with the design of the ride. “Off the shelf” are rides that are purchased already designed from the manufacture – ‘Mullholland Madness’, ‘Aladdin’, ‘Maliboomer’, ‘Jumping Jellyfish’, everything in Din-O-Rama, etc., etc., etc. “Off the shelf” means a ride I can experience other places.

Putting fiberglass coverings on the ride vehicles to make them look like carpets or sticking highway signs beside the track is an example of “decoration” – not “themeing”. A theme element is something that enhances or advances a storyline, decoration just makes something look nice. ‘Splash Mountain’ has an off-the-shelf ride system, but the attraction itself has a storyline that is supported both by the show and by the ride elements. That makes the attraction unique and more than just a flume ride. ‘Grizzly Rapids’ is another off-the-shelf ride system, but it has no storyline and no show elements. It’s decorated with rocks and trees, but the basic experience is no different then the seven hundred other rapids ride in the country.

And yes, “off the shelf” is meant to be a negative term when applied to Disney. I expect more from them than a county fair midway.


P.S. As for the ‘Herbie’ ride, that one goes back to the seventies. Another remake of ‘The Love Bug’ is in the works. If it’s a huge hit I won’t be surprised if the plans get dusted off again.

[DisDuck]

Thanks thedscoop. This 'off-the-shelf' argument is not new just to some who post here. DVC may have been the first to use it and in 'his' definition - it is a ride not designed from the ground up by Disney. I take the same tack as you the mechanism is not important it is what they do to it in regards to themeing that is more important.

Now some of the 'newer' rides mentioned here may have 'lame' themeing but that is subjective. You see I think that except for Spiderman there is some 'lame' themeing at IOA, in particular Dudley. Yet others think IOA has done what Disney should be doing.

This has been my 'theme' from the very beginning of these various Disney going to pot debates. I believe what 'we' see/get out of Disney is purely subjective. AV does not like things that I do. Is he right and I wrong or is it that as different individuals with different tastes we view the same thing differently. Maintenance is objective, a place is clean or it is not clean, etc. but like/dislike of a ride is subjective. Since I don't like most coasters I think a park with a majority of coasters (particularly 'stomach renching' ones) is a 'bad' park.

This is why I and my daughter like AK so much, it has its rides but also its beauty and serenity which is best enjoyed at a leisurely pace. That is why it is a 'full' day for us. IOA is a 1/2 day for us.

[johare]

Ok, from now on instead of 'off the shelf rides', I will use the term 'cheap generic attractions' to refer to the crap Disney is coming up with lately.

As far as theming goes, if you consider the theming at 'IOA' to be lame then I would consider the RECENT theming at Disney to be pathetic. Popeye is themed FAR better than Kali River Rapids, Cat in the Hat is themed far better than Pooh and even a 'cheap generic' attraction like One Fish Two Fish has better theming than Aladdin.

[DisDuck]

Since I consider some of the themeing at IOA lame, you consider Disney pathetic then Universal Studios must be putrid.

[space42]

'cheap generic attractions' hehehe, thats funny :)


I dunno, I wasn't that impressed with IOA either. They do have some nice rides like Spiderman. I also LOVED Popeye! I think that is the best raft ride I have ever been on. And the theming was wonderful.
But the theming of the coasters stopped once you left the cue. I thought the cue of Dueling Dragons was AMAZING, but once you got on the ride the theme ended. It would have been great if they could have extended the theme into the ride like Disney has done in the past. Like put the coaster in a show building. Or built them into a mountain/hill of some sort.

But back to off the shelf ....errrr... 'cheap generic attractions'
I just wish Disney would build another attraction on the scope of Splash Mountain! That was the last great Disney attraction in the US IMHO.
They just dont seem to want to build those type of attractions anymore.
Lets hope that the rumor about BK is true. From the Paul Pressler interview it does seem to be!


On another note... Part of the 'problem' is the spread of rumors on the internet. I'm sure there have been tons of great attractions on the drawing board that have been scrapped for whatever reason. Now, we just hear about them more than we would have in the past. If we never knew about Fire Mountain and Beastly Kingdom etc.. then we would never had expected Disney to build them. But we now hear about all of these great attractions that never get built while we watch them installing 'cheap generic attractions'. It would probably be better if we never knew about them.
We just expect more from Disney.
I say "we" because it seems that most people here feel the same way.

[tiggerstheman1]

Johare said:
Popeye is themed FAR better than Kali River Rapids, Cat in the Hat is themed far better than Pooh and even a 'cheap generic' attraction like One Fish Two Fish has better theming than Aladdin.

I'll have to take exception with 2/3 of this one. While the ride on Popeye is better - MUCH WETTER - I found no story to tell and I think that's the heart of a themed attraction. Decoration is only part of it. However, if I'm judging raft ride to raft ride, I'll tip my hand toward Popeye because the whitewater is rougher and fits the size of the raft better.

I personally think Cat in the Hat is atrocious. A bunch of painted walls. All the air ducts and roof trusses were in plain view. I never felt part of the story rather I was just looking at some prop walls. Pooh, is about the same but I think there is more depth to the sets and the distractions are fewer. In a dark ride, it is all about the story. While CITH is one of my personal Suess favorites, they just missed on it. The queue didn't capture me and the ride left me feeling flat.

The best dark ride at IOA is Spidey (I don't think there's any arguement). It wraps you into the story. Even if you take out the technology of the 3d and made it a traditional, simple dark ride, the themeing captures you.


One Fish vs Alladdin -- toss up to me. Don't care for either one, although my wife loves the spinners.

[JeffH]

..."then I would consider the RECENT theming at Disney to be pathetic. Popeye is themed FAR better than Kali River Rapids, Cat in the Hat is themed far better than Pooh and even a 'cheap generic' attraction like One Fish Two Fish has better theming than Aladdin."

I think the problem is that we don't know what theming is.
A theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation.
Kali is beautifully done, the queue line itself is better than most attractions at other parks, the only thing it lacks is that it could have been longer (and the burnt out section is depressing), and to compare it's 'theming' to something like Popeye is absurd. The theming of Kali deals with saving the rainforests, which is part of the grand theme of the whole park (a very contempory and popular theme), while Popeye is based on a cartoon that hasn't been made in over 40 years and who's only recent reference was a horrible movie. Pooh is 100% Pooh which is as full as a theme as you can get, movies (old and new), several TV shows (old and new especially the excellent Book of Pooh), many CD-ROMs and characters in the park. Aladdin overlooks Agrabah and generally has Genie, Jasmine, and Aladdin giving autographs nearby. Along with the movies, TV, Tiki Room, and characters theming is high here, as well. As far as RECECT theming at Disney goes, AK itself represents the grandest theming ever done in the world. The research and the detail that went into this park would make Walt proud. I only hope they continue the theme as it grows (unlike what they did in Future World with Test Track).
As far as the ride 'quality/originality' goes, I see no problem with Disney adding a few "B", "C" and "D" attractions after several decades of only adding "D" and "E" attractions everywhere. When the (some say golden days) MK first opened, besides being a rip-off of Disneyland (0% creativity), it was filled with 'off-the-shelf' simple attractions, with very few "E"attractions and many "A", "B", "C" and "D" attractions. Most rides were simple car (or sub) on a track surrounded by theme. Where is this Disney designed stuff anyway, Flight to the Moon? Animatronics were the big Disney creation, otherwise they simply built buildings with a ride through a 'dark' area decorated with theme.
Theme is why we return over and over again. The themes that are created and reinforced and kept alive/vital by the movies (and sequels), the TV shows, the videos, the CD-Roms, the merchandise, the character interaction.

Just because a company throws together a bunch of 'dead' themes and decorates them well does NOT constitute a good/effective theme (park). I never liked Seuss much (there are enough REAL things to read about to our children without messing their minds up with made up crap), and the big association for kids is the Grinch who stole Christmas (kids just love that!). Popeye is a great theme...eat spinach and beat up the bad guy over and over again. I can just hear it the kids all screaming "We want to go play with Popeye", wait, no they are saying "Who in the hell is Popeye?"

Theme, thy name is Disney.

[johare]

thescoop,

Now regarding "cheap generic attractions", does the ride mechanism for space, splash, and big thunder fall within this category

Were are talking about ATTRACTIONS, not RIDE MECHANISMS. I guess you just enjoy twisting words to make them fit the reply you intend on posting. I guess the fact that you think Splash and Space Mtn have 'cheap generic ride mechanisms' show just how little you know about this subject.

[johare]

Kali is beautifully done, the queue line itself is better than most attractions at other parks
Same has been said for Dueling Dragons queue...in fact most probably find it better than Kali.

Pooh is 100% Pooh which is as full as a theme as you can get
Yep, a bunch of 'non-animated' animatronic characters and painted plywood really get us into the theme.

AK itself represents the grandest theming ever done in the world
Sure you haven't OD'ed on pixie dust on this one? AK is nice, but it's theming required very little imagination. It's a heck of a nice zoo with some fancy buildings here and there and a big fake tree in the middle.

I can just hear it the kids all screaming "We want to go play with Popeye"
Right...and I can hear all the kids screaming "We want to go play in the rainforest, we want to go play in the rainforest"

Theme, thy name is Disney.
NOT! :D It's funny how you think "a theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation", yet you find characters like Popeye, Spiderman, Jurassic Park, Suess, etc... to be outdated and unrecognizable.

[johare]

Great attractions can arise out of generic, simple, or otherwise unoriginal ride mechanisms. So, let's wait to judge any attraction until the theming is completed! I don't disagree with this at all. "Cheap Generic Attractions" is a term I decided to use instead of "OFF THE SHELF" which for some reason seems to bother some people...

Now, I know its tempting to wonder how "DinoRama" could ever be themed to the point of becoming a strong attraction. But, I'm confident Imagineering has done more with less. I don't know what in recent 'Disney history' has given you this confidence, but fine...I'll wait and see what they come up with. However, Aladdin is completed and it IS in my opinion a cheap generic attraction.

Still hope you join us....just leave the weapons at su casa por favor! I'm not angry and I'm definately not violent. Looks like your twisting words/implying things again...

[paulde177jb]

I think my point has been getting a little sidetracked.
When I said about Disney buying off the shelf rides, I know they order them to a specification form builders, what I mean is that they havent really pushed the barriers back in rides for a few years now, have they? Look at what theyve doen at Disneysea. Original ideas/rides immersing you in an experience. WDW - you get Pooh & Buzz, cardboard cutouts. Yes Buzz & pooh are great fun. But remember the rides that have been closed down & these have just reused the ride mechanism as a cheap replacement.

Also the point was theyve pumped up the attendance levels so much - yet done little to enhance the worlds rides. Id like to see WDW's daily profit line. The Imagineers have had a hard time of it - forget the attractions & build another hotel. I actually think this is hurting the area.

Yes Disney dopes have its pixie dust it can sprinkle, but Im not blinkered & I feel that Universal deserves real praise for IoA.

By the way, my friend has just returned (49 with teenage boys) from their 1st time in Orlando. They all agreed (& the wife doesnt like coasters) that USF/IoA was much better than Disney. It was well thouht out, fab rides - a true experience. In fact, they thought MK was overcrowded & overrated.

Please dont be blinded to anything just because it isnt Disney

[johare]

Freudian slip of the day:

Yes Disney dopes have its pixie dust it can sprinkle

[JeffH]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kali is beautifully done, the queue line itself is better than most attractions at other parks
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Twisted retort:
Same has been said for Dueling Dragons queue...in fact most probably find it better than Kali.
My response:
You compared it to Popeye, not Dueling Dragons, I never said anything about DD, whether it has a good queue or not has nothing to do with my quote.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pooh is 100% Pooh which is as full as a theme as you can get
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Twisted retort:
Yep, a bunch of 'non-animated' animatronic characters and painted plywood really get us into the theme.
My response:
It doesn't have to be high-tech to be effective. Your retort damned Peter Pan, Snow White, and Small World and The Haunted Mansion (which you must also hate).

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AK itself represents the grandest theming ever done in the world
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Twisted retort:
Sure you haven't OD'ed on pixie dust on this one? AK is nice, but it's theming required very little imagination. It's a heck of a nice zoo with some fancy buildings here and there and a big fake tree in the middle.
My response:
You obviously know nothing about AK and obviously have no appreciation for the work that went into this park ("big fake tree", what are you a robot?). No other company would have the courage and conviction to build a 'main street' devoid of merchandising, for the sake of theme. Part of the theming is in the intense landscaping which in itself it part of the theming of each park that has kept hordes of people returning to WDW time after time. From the attractions, to the walkways, to the dining areas, to even the toilets (in Conservation Station in particular), theme is everywhere.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can just hear it the kids all screaming "We want to go play with Popeye"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twisted retort:
Right...and I can hear all the kids screaming "We want to go play in the rainforest, we want to go play in the rainforest"
My response:
What a twisted analogy, Popeye is geared towards children, the rainforest theme to adults

quote:
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Theme, thy name is Disney.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twisted retort:
NOT! It's funny how you think "a theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation", yet you find characters like Popeye, Spiderman, Jurassic Park, Suess, etc... to be outdated and unrecognizable.
My response:
Gee, I never mentioned Jurassic Park or Spiderman (both who ARE active identifiable themes). And I never said that Suess was either, just that I didn't like the theme, myself. Throwing them into it doesn't change the FACT that Popeye is outdated and unrecognizable.
You obviously have no idea what theme is. Disney themes are timeless and alive and recognizable by everyone in the world (Do you think Popeye is?), whether it is the enduring tale of Snow White or Cinderella or the popular Pooh or even Bear in the Big House.

[paulde177jb]

Jeff I think u r getting a little aggressive & steamed up.

Just because someone opines slightly differently doesnt make their opionion any less valid.

Surely jst looking at the example of disneysea makes you thinka fast one is being pulled at WDW

[johare]

You compared it to Popeye, not Dueling Dragons, I never said anything about DD, whether it has a good queue or not has nothing to do with my quote. You praised Kali for it's queue...I was simply bringing up another attraction which except for the queue is pretty much a fun, but unthemed coaster. Both may have great queues, but neither is well themed.

It doesn't have to be high-tech to be effective. Your retort damned Peter Pan, Snow White, and Small World and The Haunted Mansion (which you must also hate). How is that? Haunted Mansion is great. Small world is a little cheesy, but a classic which we do enjoy when we go. Pooh is lame...the characters mouths don't move, their limbs don't move, in fact, they barely move. They are painted plastic/fiberglass molded crap which is one step above plywood. I guess Snow White and Peter Pan do in fact belong in that category too, though I do enjoy Peter Pan.

You obviously know nothing about AK and obviously have no appreciation for the work that went into this park ("big fake tree", what are you a robot?). No other company would have the courage and conviction to build a 'main street' devoid of merchandising, for the sake of theme. Part of the theming is in the intense landscaping which in itself it part of the theming of each park that has kept hordes of people returning to WDW time after time. From the attractions, to the walkways, to the dining areas, to even the toilets (in Conservation Station in particular), theme is everywhere. Yep, that's why Disney had to let seasonal passholders into AK for free this summer...and why there have been newspaper articles about poor attendance at AK, but hey you know better, right? Of course AK has nice landscaping...most zoo's do. If you like the theming at AK (aka Lake Buena Vista Zoo) then you should check out the everglades...it's themed perfectly like a swamp. You could even have some fun at Sears which has done a wonderful job...the theming there makes you really feel like you are in a department store. You may think I know nothing about AK, but I've been there enough times to know that it's not worth too many repeat visits.

What a twisted analogy, Popeye is geared towards children, the rainforest theme to adults But it was you who ridiculed Popeye and said that children wouldn't be interested and now you say it's geared towards them? And Kali which you say is themed to the rainforest is geared for adults? You certainly seem confused.

Gee, I never mentioned Jurassic Park or Spiderman (both who ARE active identifiable themes). And I never said that Suess was either, just that I didn't like the theme, myself. Throwing them into it doesn't change the FACT that Popeye is outdated and unrecognizable. Would you mind telling us what you were refering to when you said "Just because a company throws together a bunch of 'dead' themes and decorates them well does NOT constitute a good/effective theme (park)." Sounds like you were refering to more than just Popeye...or is that really your only hangup about IOA?

You obviously have no idea what theme is. Disney themes are timeless and alive and recognizable by everyone in the world (Do you think Popeye is?), whether it is the enduring tale of Snow White or Cinderella or the popular Pooh or even Bear in the Big House. YOU have no idea what theme is my friend for you are blinded by pixie dust. You must have been in paulde177jb's subconcious when he made that freudian slip earlier.

[JeffH]

I have nothing against IOA, in fact it may be the greatest park in the world for all I care, I just hate it when people slam Disney without any justification except to slant their comments so Disney 'sounds' bad ("big fake tree", well what about the big fake castle at MK?).
When I mentioned bunch, it wasn't aimed at IOA, it was in general. I've only slammed Popeye as a weak theme, and related my personal feelings about Suess, I do not slam without justification.
Now let me say it real slowly...
We were talking theming, Popeye is a kiddy theme, yet it is a dead theme compared to anything Disney does. And there are other themes at IOA that are just as unrecognizable (can we say toon lagoon?), but that doesn't say that all themes at IOA are as weak as Popeye.
Oh, and attendance has nothing to do with theming, and like MGM when it opened there isn't much to do and it generally closes by 6pm. And do you think that perhaps the overall drop in attendance throughout the industry might have something to do with the Seasonal passholder exemption? Maybe getting Seasonal Passholders to AK, might actually get a lot of them to upgrade or pay for a few days at the other parks. All I know is AK does quite well as far as attendance goes.
As for Kali theming, the original argument was your comparison of a weak old theme like Popeye to Kali's modern mature theme.
The characters may not move much in Pooh, but there are a lot of neat effects throughtout the ride. Of course, my point was that it IS effective. And I don't expect Disney to bust the bank on everything they do.
The only blind one here is you. I've criticized Disney more than you can imagine, but whenever I criticize Disney I have real justification and provide suggestions.

If anything, Disney is becoming too themed. The recent Fantasmic is theme to the nth degree. Even Rock and Roller coaster is a well themed coaster, although not in any Disney sense. And with all the character dining, you can even eat with 'theme'. The hotels are themed, even the roads are themed, maybe they should theme all the busses as well to take the edge off of all of them.

[johare]

We were talking theming, Popeye is a kiddy theme, yet it is a dead theme compared to anything Disney doesSplash Mountain is based on Song of the South and the Brer Bear & Rabbit characters. Do you really think more kids have seen Song of the South than have seen a Popeye cartoon?

And there are other themes at IOA that are just as unrecognizable (can we say toon lagoon?)Why does it have to be recognizable? What's wrong with a fun, well themed 'land'. Is Frontierland based on known characters? What about Liberty Square?

The characters may not move much in Pooh, but there are a lot of neat effects throughtout the ride. Of course, my point was that it IS effective. You're just making excuses for Disney here. What are these neat effects? Rocking a car back and forth a little? Oil running down fishing line like a lamp from the 70's? A plywood elephant blowing a smoke ring? There is no excuse for not making the characters a little more lifelike in this attraction.

[johare]

Johare occassionally goes into these fits (see earlier slams against my friend and objective, well-stated poster gcurling). Fits? I was simply arguing a point with him and after he finally went to see IOA he actually agreed with a lot of what I was saying all along.

But, come on johare (maybe you ignored my pm), comments like AK simply being the Lake Buena Vista zoo really ruin a threadReally? Is it any more acceptable to refer to IOA as a 'coaster park' or a 'six flags' as I've seen around here? btw: Sorry, I didn't see any PM from you.

also, if you read my prior comment I did say that I enjoyed Peter Pan.

[JeffJewell]

A theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation. ... I disagree with the definition of "theme" we're using, here. A character, in and of itself, is not a theme. A theme is an underlying idea or story, true, but a character is a device used to express the theme.

The Peter Pan and Snow White rides are themed in the sense that they tell a story. You do not have to have any prior knowledge of the films to "get" the story. It's A Small World is themed in the sense that it conveys the underlying idea that people are people and our differences are superficial (although you can't tell that from some of the discussion on this board). You do not need a prior knowledge of what IASW is about to "get" that message.

Dumbo is not themed, it is decorated with a recognizable character. Without a prior knowledge of the movie, there is no way to discern a meaningful story from the Dumbo ride. Yes, a lot of people _remember_ the movie's theme from seeing the Dumbo ride, but the ride itself is not themed, it relies on character recognition to recall a theme from somewhere else.

There's a pizza buffet here locally with pictures of cartoon characters on the wall. Mickey and Donald, Buzz and Woody, and so on. If characters in and of themselves are "theme," then that pizza buffet is at least as well-themed as Dumbo, and arguably _better_ themed (hey, there're more characters there, so that means more theme, eh?).

Port Orleans French Quarter/Riverside actually tells a story (arguably a better story after the name change, but that's not important right now) with it's buildings, landscapes, and of course, the Sassagoula River. The All-Stars are decorated with giant icons, not themed. Any story or idea brought to mind by those icons is a memory triggered through character recognition, not a theme expressed by the icon.

If a company makes a cheap plastic coffee mug, everyone can see it's a cheap plastic coffee mug. If that same company makes a cheap plastic coffee mug and screens on an image of Mickey, is the cheap coffee mug suddenly Magic? Or is it a cheap plastic coffee mug that _reminds_ you of something Magic?

I don't intend to get into the IOA/Disney thing at all, I just wanted to clear up the mistaken use of the term "theme." The mistaken use doesn't happen only here, I believe Disney management is now convinced that "character" equals "theme," and I believe that mistake is leading to less Magical rides.

It is my opinion that Disney's recent projects tend to use character recognition in place of real theming far too often, and that this trend will bite them in the future.

Jeff

[Channel1tv]

And do you think that perhaps the overall drop in attendance throughout the industry might have something to do with the Seasonal passholder exemption? Maybe getting Seasonal Passholders to AK, might actually get a lot of them to upgrade or pay for a few days at the other parks. All I know is AK does quite well as far as attendance goes.


Actually Jeff, low attendance the Very reason that season pass holders have access to AK...

[HorizonsFan]

Surely jst looking at the example of disneysea makes you thinka fast one is being pulled at WDW

If DisneySeas was being financed by WDC, you might have a valid analogy. WDC has to spend money for attractions at WDW; budget is a concern. OLC spends money for attractions at DisneySeas; budget is not as much of a factor.

[tiggerstheman1]

Other stories have confirmed that budgets ARE a concern at OLC and it's not the "visionary" company in Walt's image that everyone would have to believe.

My opinion is that what we see in DisneySeas is an example of Disney using OLC's money to advance it's reputation. How? Well, they get to hold OLC's feet to the fire on maintaining the "Disney" standard, then they get to build an incredible park that everyone attributes to Disney while not writing the check for it. So Disney's reputation grows even more while draining somebody else's wallet.

I think the suits may be figuring that they don't need the income from the park but that the increase in Disney's reputation will translate into more movie tickets sold, visits from Japan to the "classic" Disney, more plushies sold, etc.

Just my opinion.

[HorizonsFan]

Other stories have confirmed that budgets ARE a concern at OLC

You are correct. They just aren't Disney's main concern, they are the concern of OLC.
My point is that you can't point to DisneySeas and say, "They got it so WDW should too!"
WDC spends the money for WDW. OLC spends the money for DisneySeas.
"Why does Disney want to do it this way?" is a whole 'nother discussion...

[tiggerstheman1]

<QUOTE>My point is that you can't point to DisneySeas and say, "They got it so WDW should too!" WDC spends the money for WDW. OLC spends the money for DisneySeas. </QUOTE>

I agree. I thought you were making the point that OLC isn't concerned about budgets and expenses (like other threads have discussed).

It seems that Disney management is doing to themselves what they used to do with Actors and Directors in the past; that is to squeeze every last cent of concessions to make a lot of inexpensive films. Now they burn through $200M on P.H. for a flop in the film world, and seem to have lost the ability to innovate for their own 100%-owned interests. Mission:Space may be a counter example - looks like it might - but one ride does not a trend make. Looking at other rides, the trend, at least in the Disney-owned parks, that the core compentancy of WDI is just as Paul Pressler stated "painters and plasterers". That seems to be more in line with what they have been doing lately - taking someone elses ride and doing a paint and plaster on the queue.

Maybe the real WDI is becoming the Swiss Army of long ago -- nothing but mercenaries who will design a great park for someone else? Does someone at Disney think that WDI should be nothing more than consultants who occasionally happen to work on a Disney project?

[JeffJewell]

Mission:Space may be a counter example - looks like it might - but one ride does not a trend make. Looking at other rides, the trend, at least in the Disney-owned parks, that the core compentancy of WDI is just as Paul Pressler stated "painters and plasterers". That seems to be more in line with what they have been doing lately - taking someone elses ride and doing a paint and plaster on the queue. ...what we know about Mission:SPACE so far suggests the opposite: that the ride might be a perfect example of the new thinking.

The original concept for Mission:SPACE was that the pavilion was to be a "real" trip into space. The pre-show would have involved preparing for space travel and there would be interactive areas after the ride themed as the destination. A complete experience, in the old style Disney tradition.

Unfortunately, once Disney got the check from Compaq, they found it would cover the cost of the high-capacity version of the military-grade g-force training simulator, but not much else. Rumors suggest that the pre- and post-ride attractions have been drastically cut; perhaps removed entirely. The "theme" of the ride has changed from "trip to outer space" to "ride a g-force trainer simulation," which, in ten words or less, is precisely the reality of the situation.

At the moment, it appears that the Imagineers got to build the big red ball out front. And that may be it.

Jeff

PS - although I admit the tone was negative here, I did try to steer clear of "bashing" Mission:SPACE before we've seen it. I tried to stick to reporting well-known rumors, rather than editorializing.

[tiggerstheman1]

<QUOTE>The "theme" of the ride has changed from "trip to outer space" to "ride a g-force trainer simulation," which, in ten words or less, is precisely the reality of the situation. </QUOTE>

Here's me hoping.....

1) I hope that WDI ties in some kind of ride film so it's not basically a high-tech version of the Vomit Comet where they close the doors, you get the G-Force and then float for a second before you hurl.

2) I'm really interested in experiencing the weightlessness aspect of the attraction so I'm hoping they are able to pull it off well.

3) I'm hoping that WDI puts it's spin on the hardware.

.... end of hope

Seriously, the fact that it's a G-Force simulator doesn't bother me. I can't go down to South of the Border and get on the exact same thing (I can now get on a Mad Mouse coaster where the cars have big Pedro faces on them). I don't expect WDI to come up with all new hardware for each ride - after all, they didn't invent the boat to build Pirates.

SIZE=1]For those who have never traveled I-95 between Lumberton, NC and Florence SC: South of the Border is a giant roadside tourist trap of the worst kind - Big Sombrero tower (with elevator) and a bunch of junk shops. [/SIZE]

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...


<QUOTE> At the moment, it appears that the Imagineers got to build the big red ball out front. And that may be it. </QUOTE>

I wonder if on top it has a little triangle window so guests can ask it questions? It IS a red Magic 8-Ball!!! Now I get it! :-)

[paulde177jb]

Simply put, I dont believe that WDW offers as much value money as it did in, say 94 or 98 when I visited previously.

Entrance prices, food etc have rocketed in price. However, the attractions havent kept pace.

Im not saying Disney should do a IoA copy for 1 minute. Disney isnt in that business. Disney is about, IMHO a family experience for all ages. However, that doesnt mean they can just throw in midway rides (isnt Aladdin just an excuse for more themed shops?)

I think maybe the problem is that AK was rushed, cuts were made. They wanted something to do battle with IoA, as a NEW park, not a direct competitor, & a way of keeping guests there rather than going off to BG for the day.

I loved Horizons. OK it was dated but it was an experience for the whole family. I fear Mission will be for thrill seekers only.

When you boarded a WDW ride you really appreciated the thought that had gone into the attraction. You felt as if real care had been taken to get it just right. It was gonna be there for years so get the ride right. Now there seems to be fudging going on. Reducing hours on rides, closing parks earlier etc etc.

What has improved in the last 10 years? Well certainly the catering has improved but toi my mind not much else. It seems you eeither get midway rides or "Ride the Jungle, go upside downb at 70 miles an hour, feel 4 Gs like a fighter pilot". Or maybe "The Living Sea - go on a submarine where the atomic reactor goes into meltdown, experience a a sub crash, shark attack, the bends..." .They seem to be following trends now rather than setting the standard. I still live in hope that Disney doesnt just go for extrmemes and still amkes it a family experience of quality.

[johare]

Just look at some of the most recent attractions at each of the parks...Alien Encounter at MK, JIYI at Epcot, R&R Coaster at the Studios and Dinosaur at the Lake Buena Vista Zoo. I guess Disney figures that if they just turn out the lights and leave everyone in the dark 90% of the time instead of going thru the effort the properly theme the attractions. Guess they're too busy building hotels, souvenier shops and thousands of ridiculous pins to really care anymore.

[johare]

thedscoop,

Who said I hate Disney? I don't dislike Disney at all, I'm just disappointed in the garbage they are pushing off on people lately and wish they would turn themselves around. I think most of what they've done over the past few years has been total crap...especially Animal Kingdom. I also finally saw Atlantis the other day and am glad I downloaded it and didn't waste my money going to see it because we were really disappointed in it.

I guess you might say I hate what Disney is doing lately, however I still love the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and even parts of MGM. If DisneySea were built here I doubt you would see a complaint from me regarding it. Do you expect everyone who posts to be a brainwashed Disney zombie who blindly sings the praises of everything Disney does?

Anyway, if you don't like my comments then take your own advice and don't read them and especially don't waste your time replying to them anymore. DUH!

[DisDuck]

So the fact that my family likes AK (it is NOT A ZOO) means we are brainwashed zombies. Certainly only your opinion counts and those who like AK don't.

[DanG]

Scoop, your post seems to suggest that if someone wants to be critical of Disney, they must not like Disney and should not participate in the community. This is unfair.

One can appreciate and care for much of what is Disney and not like very much what they have seen the last five years. For many the core of Disney are the themeparks and movies and they see other companies passing Disney by in these core businesses. It would be fair to say that Disney has lost its focus on these businesses and can be seen as milking the themeparks without making cash investments appropriate for the size and type of business they are in.

More frustrating for me are the people who will defend every mover Disney makes just because they are Disney- the illusion of Disney infallibility. Disney has more of these lapdogs than any company I've ever seen. But its a testament to the passion stoked by those core businesses.

Some might suggest that the critics care more because they see Disney slowly deteriorating and losing that magic. I am in that group.

It is a fair criticism though to say that we all get fairly well off topic here on the Romors and News board.

But I could be wrong.

DanG

[johare]

DisDuck,

Absolutely not. Just liking AK does not make you or your family brainwashed. There are plenty of people who do like AK and there is nothing wrong with that. I happen to be one of those who do not care for AK and in my opinion it's not much more than a fancy zoo. Both opinions are valid and should be respected, however some people get very defensive and almost take it as a personal attack if anything Disney is criticized...to me those are the brainwashed ones.

[DanG]

I just become sensitive when I perceive that someone dismisses criticisms as unwelcome.
Anyway, I was jumping into a "discussion" that didn't involve me.

This Board has been great for stoking strong, well-articulated appraisals of Disney's decisionmaking that I've not seen elsewhere. I just hope that everyone keeps up the lively discussion.

DanG

[paulde177jb]

Thanks for the Support Dang.

At least it now looks as if Discovery Island may get used for something according to the Screamscape story (putting 2 and 2 together that is on the Clive Barker story).

Maybe the bosses are getting themselves ready for a hive of activity over the next couple of years (instead of closing down attractions).

[JessXF42]

Hello all. I've never posted before, but this thread could not go untouched.

In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA for one very specific reason. And as debated as the definition of this reason may be, it is simply: theme.

The entire Disney company, and in this case WDW, has an underlying theme and that is magic.

Walt was searching for a name for the MK when Lilly suggested the "Magic Kingdom" because she knew that her husband wanted magic to permeate every experience that guests would have at his theme park. Every attraction in the MK is meant to inspire imagination, creativity, and carefree attitudes that are only attainable though a bit of magic. Dumbo does not fly because evolution has provided wings for him; Dumbo flies because through his wishing and believing in amazing possibilities, he is able to lift off. Walt wanted to take guests back to his home town--not just a geographical transportation--but a magical transformation through time. The Tiki birds who are able to talk, the Pirates who've somehow stumbled off the Spanish Main right into Orlando, and even our nation's presidents--every single one ever elected would not be possible without magic.

Magic is portrayed in Epcot as well. As much as I don't like Ellen DeGeneres, The Universe of Energy deals with the magical realm of dreams. And how could you travel around the world in one afternoon without leaving central Florida--without a bit of magic? Test Track deals with another type of magic-or wizardry and that's the wizardry of technology...we're able to glimpse the intricate work behind automobiles. What seems like magical technology of the future is explored throughout Innoventions. Did anyone think, when WDW opened, that we'd be sending e-postcards through millions of tiny wires, and thousands of computer terminals?

MGM is filled with magic of another type. The magic behind the movies. Disney is a motion picture company. Remember, as Walt said, let us not lose sight of the fact that this was all started by a mouse. It's a bit of magic that lets us "ride the movies", or see the ghosts of the former guests at the Hollywood Tower Hotel, or even "talk" with Steven Tyler. It's magic that allows us a glimpse inside Muppet Labs. How else could these polyester creatures talk?

Finally, the much debated AK. Probably never in my life will I ever ever travel to Africa. But through Disney magic I am able to see a roof thatched by actual thatchers from Africa, I am able to learn about animals from the savannahs from guides who actually grew up on said savannah, and to ride a raft through a landscape in Asia. No zoo I know of goes to the trouble of bringing in permanent employees from nations according to an animal's habitat. Dinosaur is the ultimate magical experience...just try to imagine technology that could take you back in time. Finally, the Tree of Life. Yep. Big and fake. But you're not looking at it correctly if the only thing you see is a big, fake tree. Think of how long it took people to construct it, how much research went into it, the detail of the carvings, the fact that it does look remarkable real. It doesn't have to be slight of hand to be magical. It only has to be beyond the realm of immediate possibility.

IOA. Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical. Dr. Doom's whatever-the-heck, well, that's nothing compared to stepping back "amid the glitz and the glamour of a bustling young movie town." Popeye? Sure, being in the cartoons would be magical, but it's not presented as joining the cartoon world. Compare the Seuss Fish ride to Dumbo and why are the fish flying? Did they have feathers like Dumbo?

Idealistic? Maybe. But remember, that's how Walt wanted everyone to experience DL and WDW--idealistically and through the eyes of a child. Experience the magic.

Jess

[johare]

Dinosaur is the ultimate magical experience...just try to imagine technology that could take you back in time. Hahahahahahaha...this isn't even worth arguing. Is throwing you in the dark and occassionally shining a black light on a big fake looking dinosaur all it takes to transport you back in time?

Idealistic? Maybe. Closed minded? Yes. You would have to be to make a statement like "In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA"...unless of course you have some real magical ability to see into the future...in which case you shouldn't be posting here, you should be out buying lottery tickets.

Finally, the Tree of Life. Yep. Big and fake. But you're not looking at it correctly if the only thing you see is a big, fake tree. Think of how long it took people to construct it, how much research went into it, the detail of the carvings, the fact that it does look remarkable real. Who are you to tell me whether or not I'm looking at something 'correctly'? To me it's a big fake tree no matter how long it took to construct. Heck, it took a long time to build Interstate 4...does that make it magical?

Compare the Seuss Fish ride to Dumbo and why are the fish flying? Did they have feathers like Dumbo? Sure, One Fish Two Fish is a very entertaining, though 'off the shelf' type spinner ride with a very catchy soundtrack and fun elements like the water spray. It is based on a very well known Dr. Suess story, though it doesn't rely on the story to provide it's theme. I'm sure not a single child who rides it questions why the fish can fly...at least not anymore than they would question why an elephant can fly. Dumbo on the other hand has no soundtrack, no extra effects and relies heavily on familiarity with the Dumbo story.

IOA. Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical.Yes, it is. Have you even been there?

Dr. Doom's whatever-the-heck, well, that's nothing compared to stepping back "amid the glitz and the glamour of a bustling young movie town." Convenient how you pick the worst IOA has to offer and put it up against one of Disney's best attractions isn't it?

Idealistic? Maybe. But remember, that's how Walt wanted everyone to experience DL and WDW--idealistically and through the eyes of a child. Experience the magic. What Walt wanted and what Eisner and Co. have done two Disney are two completely different things.

[JeffH]

has johare ever said anything nice about Disney (or anything else aside from IOA), or the people that enjoy it?
--------
All I know is as far as my daughter and I are concerned, in the last decade, more magic has been pumped into WDW than ever existed before:
The character dining is EVERYWHERE (and the food is excellent and bottomless)
Characters are everywhere (and you can find them when/where you want them)
LIVE productions are everywhere (compared to the 100% lip-sync crap that used to exist)
MGM opened and has been populated with wonderful attractions for young and old alike.
AK (our favorite park) opened after much planning and with deep theming including the 'indigenous' people, the intense landscaping, the shows (all geared towards the theme), the 'decorated' buildings nestled INTO the landscaping, the accuracy, the little hidden trails, the messages, even the walkways and the big fake tree.
Fantasmic (the quintessential culmination of all themes into one magical show)
Tapestry of Nations/Dreams (with the interaction with the crowd)
The MK parade (where the kids are part of the parade, not just spectators)
Splash Mountain (even if it is tied to a 'politically incorrect' theme, like Pirates is)
Pooh is great (we can watch Pooh, ride Pooh, and eat with Pooh all in a day)
And when we can pull ourselves away from the parks (or it is a rain day) we visit the excellent themed resorts and the new Downtown Disney, and have a great time.
and even if it is only a 'spinny' ride to adults, my daughter loves the new Aladdin ride because it is an 'Aladdin', not because it is a kiddy ride with cartoon dressed up.
And since AK opened, I have noticed that landscaping has improved throughout WDW.
And in the last few years, the Festivals (Food and Flower) at Epcot have been well worth coming up several weekends to experience.

We go to WDW VERY often, and it seems that each trip is as special/magical (or more) than the last trip, and we never get tired of any of it.

And just because Disney decides to close up a few attractions does not take anything away from this.

And AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE, I am far from blinded, in fact I have a web page that describes MANY things that WDW could do to be even better and I have criticized WDW about many things (which deserved criticizing)

[johare]

JeffH,

You must only see what you want to see...just a few posts back in this thread I said "however I still love the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and even parts of MGM. If DisneySea were built here I doubt you would see a complaint from me regarding it. ".

The fact is, I really do like Disney and I even understand that not every new attraction is going to be an 'E-ticket' attraction, however I am also not blind to the fact that Universal did one hell of a job on IOA and that it is every bit the equal of anything over at Disney and IN MY OPINION surpasses what they've done over the past few years...sorry, I honestly don't care for AK one bit. While Universal builds great parks and THEN hotel rooms, Disney seems more focused on building the Hotels first along with Pin Trading Kiosks everywhere. Seems like the majority of people here have a hard time giving any credit to Universal or IOA and at the same time are happy with just about anything Disney throws their way. People have no problem calling IOA a 'coaster park' or comparing it to a Six Flags, yet if AK is refered to as a Zoo some feel it 'ruins a whole thread'. Sound fair to you?

So, even though I'm a bit disappointed in them lately, yes I do like Disney, but at the same time I feel that IOA has one-upped them. As I said before, if Disney Sea were built here I seriously doubt you'd hear a complaint from me...in fact I'd probably be trading in my IOA/USF annual pass for a Disney pass...at least for a year or two.

[paulde177jb]

Im the one who started this thread & it looks like I have a lot to answer for!

I think what stands out from all the previous comments is that to many, criticism in any shape/form style of absolutely anything Disney is total blasphemy. Anything Disney does is above reproach. I for one do not prescribe to that view, & wondered if there were others out there who felt, like me, that Disney were no longer setting the standard but were simply being reactive to the actions of the competition rather than proactive.

I read the review of DisneySea at Laughingplace.com & was frankly amazed at what seems to be the amazing, thoughtful attractions & attention to detail that has been poured into that park while WDW has floundered a bit.

It will be interesting to see what Disney does over the next 12 months. Maybe Im a cynic, but Disney has used Disney as a prototype/guinea pig for rides elsewhere at their parks & just maybe so of hte new rides/technology will appear through the smoke in great fanfare late 2002/early to mid 2003. We shall see....

[johare]

Listen johare, I'm not a moderatorEnough said.

btw: Jess is a she, not a he.

[johare]

I think what stands out from all the previous comments is that to many, criticism in any shape/form style of absolutely anything Disney is total blasphemyYou hit the nail on the head with this one. To some people an insult to Disney is just as bad as if you insulted a family member. In their minds, Disney can do no wrong and nothing any other company ever does will come close. Doesn't make sense now does it.

[paulde177jb]

It certainly doesnt.

And here we are - just trying to make sure the Disney Corp doesnt get itself in to the same mess it was in the led to Eisner taking over......

We hav a retailer in the UK called "Marks & Spencer" - you may have heard of it.

They were soimply untouchable - the top of the pile, blue riband, 5 star shop but affordable to all. Beyond criticism. Nations favourite retailer. They got greedy. Started milking money out of their main profitable business into less profitable areas to build them up.

Now M&S is in an absolute mess it may never recover from. It has been surpassed by GAP stores & doesnt seem to be able to make any headway back. Perhaps substitute M&S/GAP for Disney/Vivendi Universal & you get my drfit

[JeffH]

No, everything Disney does is not right (JinyI), but when something Disney does right is attacked without justification then I (we) react.

"seems more focused on building the Hotels first"...
Walt's original plan was the MK + 5 hotels
the facts are, most of the current hotels were built in the last 10 years, AFTER 3 parks were open and as they opened them they filled quickly. If they weren't in demand, they wouldn't be built. The fact is, we went painfully too long without adaquate hotel 'coverage'. Seems like a VERY intellegent focus to me, even if I rarely stay at them.

"along with Pin Trading Kiosks everywhere"
Little, cheap Pin Trading Kiosks built within the last 2 years hardly qualifies as a 'focus'

"Seems like the majority of people here have a hard time giving any credit to Universal or IOA"
Funny, I rarely read someone say something bad about IOA, my impression is that it is one great park, but that doesn't make Disney bad or getting bad.

"and at the same time are happy with just about anything Disney throws their way."
No, we've all complained plenty about JitYI, Living Seas, the demise of Horizons (and myself World of Motion), Toad, Skyway, lack of WS expansion, the overdue Beastly Kingdom, Doug, but compared to the list above this does not lessen Disney's magic.

"People have no problem calling IOA a 'coaster park' "
This only seems to happen when the coaster nuts try to press WDW into building a coaster park, as if IOA was one.
I never understood this, since it only has 2 coasters (3 if you count DD twice)?!?

"or comparing it to a Six Flags"
Never heard this, I've only heard that if you want a (WDW) coaster park, then go to 6Flags, that's not what Disney is about.

"yet if AK is refered to as a Zoo some feel it 'ruins a whole thread'."
Because it is far more than just a Zoo, it is a Disney Zoo.

"Sound fair to you?"
Yes!

[Another Voice]

I really wish the term “Magic” had never been brought to these boards. “Magic” is entirely subjective. “Magic” has no true definition. “Magic” is mostly used as shorthand for “something that I like”. Everyone’s opinion about what is “magical” for them is correct – it’s only when a personal standard is forced onto others that the “magic” can be wrong.

What makes “good” and “bad” art has been debated since the ancient Greeks and we’ve made very little headway in three thousand years. One can discuss the motives behind creating an attraction, about the execution of the attraction and how it tried to achieve those goals, one can even discuss if the attraction followed the generally “rules” for storytelling or not. But even in those terms, you can’t apply a simple “good” or “bad” judgment.

Both sides of a discussion need to present facts and analysis, not just ending “yes-it-is, no-it-isn’t” banter.

[hopemax]

To get back on the question, is the Ethos changing? Well, using a couple of JeffH's examples of his magic, these are the places where I see that something is different and it results in a less magical experience for me.

The character dining is EVERYWHERE (and the food is excellent and bottomless)

I used to have the option to eat with Pocahontas, John Smith, Gov. Radcliffe, Meeko (Artist Point, 1995). I used to have the option to eat with Clopin, Meeko, Quasimodo, Aladdin, Genie,(Soundstage Restaurant, 1997). I used to have the option to eat with Prince John, Queen of Hearts, Gov. Radcliffe, Cruella, Evil Queen (1900 Park Fare Dinner, Sept 2000). It used to be really easy to eat with unique characters, now the main option is Cindy's. That is if you can get a reservation. What happened to the variety?

Characters are everywhere (and you can find them when/where you want them)

My last trip in June, the characters in Epcot were confined to a traveling bus instead of appearing regularly in Mexico, Germany, China, Italy, Morocco, France, UK. Epcot is the main place I like to meet & greet with characters because it's more condusive to the laid back exploring unlike the MK (with full ride options) and MGM (where the number of shows, pencil you in to where you have to be a certain time if you want to see them).

MGM opened and has been populated with wonderful attractions for young and old alike.

And the park had a real strong emphasis on the "how" movies are made. But Superstar Television was replaced with a stage show and now there is nothing. Monster Sound Show was replaced with the less adult friendy 1 Saturday Morning, and now has the Drew Carey Show. I agree both shows were stale but all that Superstar needed was new scenes to play, Monster just needed a show that adults would want to follow (the kids would still have thought the funny ways people makes sounds were entertaining.) I really miss the "how" and that's why the Studios is no longer my favorite WDW park.

AK (our favorite park) opened after much planning and with deep theming including the 'indigenous' people, the intense landscaping, the shows (all geared towards the theme), the 'decorated' buildings nestled INTO the landscaping, the accuracy, the little hidden trails, the messages, even the walkways and the big fake tree.

And then what happened? In the Studios first 5 years, we saw Muppets, Beauty & the Beast, Star Tours, Voyage of the Little Mermaid, a Parade, Sorcery in the Sky culminating with Tower of Terror. Animal Kingdom has been open 3 1/2 years, and major attractions take a year or two to install so if they want any by year 5 the ground should be moving, shouldn't it? What have we seen a very beautiful animal trail, a short raft ride, and a spinner and a small coaster are on the way. I look at the Studios additions, I look at AK's additions. I look at the time period MGM was expanded (the recession of the early 90's), and I wonder why is there nothing more in the works for AK?

As a whole. as many new things have been added, there is also a lot of homogeniality where there used to be a lot of variety. I suppose they do that because the character or type of attraction is "proven" and therefore less risk, but you can only do that so far before the excitement of the unexpected falls away.

[johare]

Well JeffH, that's about the most reasonable reply I've read from you in this thread. :)

There are only 2 points on which I disagree...

1) I think Disney is putting too much focus on hotels. I've heard that they are having a hard time filling them this year. In my opinion it would be much better to have them sold out every now and then then leave rooms empty half the year. AKL was probably a good addition, but I really don't think they needed Pop Century.

2) Your quote: Little, cheap Pin Trading Kiosks built within the last 2 years hardly qualifies as a 'focus'

I could be wrong, but isn't the BIG UGLY HAT...the new FOCUS for the Studios supposed to be the focal point of pin trading?!?

[HorizonsFan]

I really wish the term “Magic” had never been brought to these boards. “Magic” is entirely subjective. “Magic” has no true definition. “Magic” is mostly used as shorthand for “something that I like”. Everyone’s opinion about what is “magical” for them is correct – it’s only when a personal standard is forced onto others that the “magic” can be wrong.
What makes “good” and “bad” art has been debated since the ancient Greeks and we’ve made very little headway in three thousand years.

So good I had to post it again!
You should see the faces of my freshmen on the first day of school when I ask them "What is art?" and "What is theatre?"...

[JessXF42]

::Jess cautiously tries out the 'quote' function::

Originally posted by johare
Closed minded? Yes. You would have to be to make a statement like "In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA"...unless of course you have some real magical ability to see into the future...in which case you shouldn't be posting here, you should be out buying lottery tickets.
Last time I checked "In my mind" signaled an opinion. Composition 101. Additionally, the old maxim about first impressions lasting a life time is not bunk. I'll make an effort to clarify my statement: IN MY MIND, Walt Disney World will always be the MAGICAL place that I remember going to when I was a child...separated far and above IOA IN MY MIND because it was my first experience at a theme park. Nothing can ever replace that.
Who are you to tell me whether or not I'm looking at something 'correctly'? To me it's a big fake tree no matter how long it took to construct.
My mistake and I apologize. When an author writes a novel or an artist paints a painting, he does so for an audience (even if that audience is just himself). The author or the artist, or even the imagineer also creates with an intent. I highly doubt that the WD imagineers' intent was for guests to see the Tree of Life as simply a big, fake tree and discount it. So, this means that you can replace 'correctly' with 'as the creators intended'.
Yes, it is. Have you even been there?
Yes, I have been to IOA's Jurassic Park. I very much enjoyed it and was quite impressed, as well. Hence me saying: "Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical."
Convenient how you pick the worst IOA has to offer and put it up against one of Disney's best attractions isn't it?
Well now, being that Dr. Doom and TofT are both "dropping rides", it seemed logical to compare the different ways that each company went about a similar attraction concept. But hey, maybe my logic is just some twisted form of convenience.

ANYWAY, back to what paulde177jb mentioned...I definitely agree that Disney seems to be (and to have been, for a bit) in a reactionary mode. Especially now in the technology aspect, when you consider the technological advantage that Spiderman has over Disney, the Mouse seems to be forced into the role of 'catch-up' company. Of course, this is from our "onlooker" perspective. I wonder if we had a look behind-the-scenes of WDW planning, would our perspective would be any different?

Jess

[johare]

I'll make an effort to clarify my statement: IN MY MIND, Walt Disney World will always be the MAGICAL place that I remember going to when I was a child...separated far and above IOA IN MY MIND because it was my first experience at a theme park. Nothing can ever replace that. Had this been your original statement I would not have made the remark about being closed minded, however your exact quote was: "In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA for one very specific reason. And as debated as the definition of this reason may be, it is simply: theme" and this comes off as a very closed minded statement. As much as I like IOA, I would never assume that something better can't come along. Heck, something better may already have come along...too bad it's on the other side of the planet.

Yes, I have been to IOA's Jurassic Park. I very much enjoyed it and was quite impressed, as well. Hence me saying: "Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical." Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic here.

Well now, being that Dr. Doom and TofT are both "dropping rides", it seemed logical to compare the different ways that each company went about a similar attraction concept. But hey, maybe my logic is just some twisted form of convenienceOther than the drop I don't think it's fair to compare these attractions. ToT was designed as a heavily themed 'E-ticket' attraction whereas Doom seems like it was thrown in just to add another attraction to Marvel Superhero Island which already had 2 great 'e-ticket' attractions.

btw: What side of Pittsburg are you from?

[JeffH]

"I used to have the option to eat with Pocahontas, John Smith, Gov. Radcliffe, Meeko Clopin, Meeko, Quasimodo, Aladdin, Genie, Prince John, Queen of Hearts, Cruella, Evil Queen (1900 Park Fare Dinner, Sept 2000. What happened to the variety?"
Poor attendance, the fact is not everyone gets a chance to dine with the characters as often as others, and when they do they want to dine with the 'big wigs' (the Pooh gang and the Mouse gang).
While although variety has come and gone, the number of character meals still remains as does my original point that we now HAVE character meals to enjoy that we didn't
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The characters in Epcot were confined to a traveling bus instead of appearing regularly in Mexico, Germany, China, Italy, Morocco, France, UK.
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Again, poor attendance (the one thing we enjoyed, being almost alone with most of them), I'm sure, put them on the bus. Why put a character out if almost nobody sees them, while the bus is an 'event' which draws a crowd.
There was a while there a couple of years ago where there seemed to be such a glut of characters everywhere (and to an extent still now) that we started to avoid them. They've been cut back some now and reorganized to be featured more (and therefore, hopefully draw a crowd). It is real sad to see a character standing alone because knowbody cares.
There still is quite a variety, though (throughout WDW). We've spent several hours with the Atlantis crew in the last month, and ran into the Llama last winter, and Cruella a few months ago and now the Bear is out.
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"MGM originals..."
I agree that Superstar and Sound should not sit empty and dark (in the dark), but that still doesn't mean that MGM doesn't offer the best day of entertainment of any of the parks.
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"AK development verses MGM"
I agree that AK SHOULD HAVE build the final focus of the park (Beastly Kingdom) as soon as Asia was built, but it is still a wonderful park and a much better park than MGM was when it first opened.
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"there is also a lot of homogeniality where there used to be a lot of variety. "
Due to demand (for the proven) and lack thereof (for the variety).
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"Less risk"
Actually the variety came before the proven after the variety showed that the demand wasn't there.
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"I've heard that they are having a hard time filling them (the hotels) this year."
Of course they are, we are in the middle of an unexpected economic downturn. When Pop Culture was started, WDW had a hard time providing economy rooms (the bands were filling up the all-star resorts), so that is why they needed to build the Pop-Culture. So what do you expect them to do, stop building it now?
When the economy returns, I'm sure the demand will be greater than ever.
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"I could be wrong, but isn't the BIG UGLY HAT...the new FOCUS for the Studios supposed to be the focal point of pin trading?!?"
No, it was built to the the BIG UGLY new Icon for BIG UGLY MGM (like the BIG UGLY FAKE tree at AK) and the focus for BIG UGLY Walt's BIG UGLY 100th Birthday celebration, and they will just happen to sell BIG UGLY pins there.
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I do believe, though, that Disney needs to address some of the areas that have been left empty, forgotten, or left to rot...
Beastly Kingdom ASAP!!! and a character lunch.
Superstar TV (and it's original concept with either TV or Movies)
Put Atlantis or Little Mermaid into the lagoon at MK
Replace the barrel bridge and rifles on Tom Sawyer's Island
Expand the capacity of MK by adding Shadowland behind Fantasyland and moving the racetrack to the other side of the train track.
Add more (new) culture to the WS even if it means adding multi-national-pavilions, where 2-4or6 nations share the same courtyard and stage and you can enjoy a variety of foods at the same table. This would enable a lot of poor countries afford the sponsorship by sharing it with other nations.

[craiggers]

You know, I have been reading these types of post for sometime now. I just returned from a 7 day trip to WDW staying at the Polynesian. I have really weighed what people say in here and after thinking about it have come to the following conclusions. It is definitely a different a WDW than what I grew up with, but different does not have to be worse or better. Different is just different. Many things are still the same and still great. The polynesian is still one of my favorite places on earth. It is just as wonderful as the first time I went.

Many rides are different, some of my favorites are gone. I loved Mr. Toad, but who under 30 really knows much about Wind and Willows anymore? It is a shame, but it is true. The Pooh ride is very good. My nephew loves it. I took an objective look at it this time and it is a really good attraction. I also really enjoy the new journey into imagination ride at EPCOT. We spent an hour "playing" in the area following the ride. I really thought that was a disney quality ride. They even worked figment in abit.

The shows are still incredible. I went to Diamond Horseshoe and it is still great. And what about Fantasmic? Unbelievable...everytime I go it is like the first time. Spectromagic, Tapestry of Nations...shows like Tarzan Rocks. I don't know how you get much better.

Anyway, for me WDW is different in someways but still great in everyway!!!!