Earn BIG money with your DVC points (and MY cash nights) [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

Quadman

11-26-2004, 12:37 PM

Sorry for the sarcasm of the topic, I know this will be a heated discussion……in the end the moderators will determine if it’s too hot

Many of us see the benefit of being able to Rent/Trade our points on occasion to get out of a jam, or to go on a cruise one year, etc.... Recently discussions have come up that makes me wonder if there is a limitation in the minds of the DVC community (at least on this board) on just what constitutes an acceptable or ‘fair’ exchange. Not only fair to the parties involved in the transactions, but also fair to the DVC membership as a whole since many of these reservations obviously require the manipulation of the reservation system to maximize the number of total reservations that are possible.

This is just a hypothetical (KIND OF, but not really), but……I don’t think it’s fair for members to take a 400 pt allotment and at the 11 month window use the 400 pts in 48 point increments (2 x studio nights at BWV at Thanksgiving) to make 8 (EIGHT) 5-7 day long reservations by using two nights booked on points and the rest at the member discount cash rate; then reselling these 8 overlapping week long reservations at a large markup.

Sure it’s less than Disney’s rack rates, but that’s not the point. The point is taking all of these (what should have been) available room nights away from members (points or member discount nights) and for a profit floating them out to the public.

Maybe I was just naïve, and none of this is any of my business, personally it just ticked me off when I was looking for a cancellation on the rent/trade board (to satisfy an unexpected business trip to Orlando). I wanted a studio that should have been around 45 points for a 5 might stay, but all I could find were $1000-$1500 reservations, course the nice thing was that some individuals that responded to my post on the rent / trade board had a whole menu of reservations to allow me to choose from.

I want to get an idea about how DVC members on the DIS feel about this type of activity, and I also want to know if DIS members think that this an appropriate use of the Rent / Trade boards.

KNWVIKING

11-26-2004, 12:51 PM

This is going to be fun.

tjkraz

11-26-2004, 01:29 PM

I think anyone but those making money off of the transactions would have the same response.

And personally, I would certainly discourage further discussion unless your goal is to put the same thought in other folks' heads. Discussing how members "feel about this type of activity" has little value since there is NOTHING that can be done to change the current situation.

Quadman

11-26-2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by tjkraz
And personally, I would certainly discourage further discussion unless your goal is to put the same thought in other folks' heads. Discussing how members "feel about this type of activity" has little value since there is NOTHING that can be done to change the current situation.

Tjkraz

While I don’t disagree with what you post about the ‘dangers’ of bringing this kind of renting activity to light………..

I did not post with a goal to educate members on how to manipulate the system. I have a goal of trying to draw attention to a matter that I don’t think most DIS members would be comfortable with if they were aware.

I am hoping that maybe there is a way that DIS staff might be encouraged to modify the posting guidelines for the Rent/Trade board to bring it closer to it’s original intent (as I understood them, and I may be wrong); as a place where members have an opportunity on occasion to do something with their points other than let them expire, but not as a classified ad board with the permissible motivations being as extreme as ‘To market DVC points purchased for income or investment purposes and to maximize profits.’

At the moment I’ve got to say that the DIS board is about the only facilitation I know of to rent/trade these reservations. Perhaps if there were some desire by DIS Staff to curb this kind of manipulative renting then those that are making the money off this kind of scheme would have to go find elsewhere to post….MAYBE they wouldn’t be able to get the traffic or attention they do here now, and MAYBE this would result in more nights available to the rest of us.

Or maybe by drawing attention and outrage to this kind of activity DVC management may even redefine what they consider acceptable…..or at least enforce their existing rules, since it seems that renting regularly for profit was not something DVC promoted as a member benefit.

Either way…making noise and lobbying for change about something within the system that is wrong makes far more sense than staying quiet and hoping more don’t find out how to ‘screw’ the system. And frankly I don’t think many more members would go out of their way to manipulate the system in this way if they were aware…..You’ve got to have gotten into DVC with a motivation towards profit (not savings, but profit) for you to even start thinking about things this way.

Again…Just my opinion.

CapeCodFam

11-26-2004, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by tjkraz
I think anyone but those making money off of the transactions would have the same response.

And personally, I would certainly discourage further discussion unless your goal is to put the same thought in other folks' heads. Discussing how members "feel about this type of activity" has little value since there is NOTHING that can be done to change the current situation.

Yup!

Quadman

11-26-2004, 03:08 PM

ok, so Im a newbie......maybe someone can educate me (honestly, I'd love to understand)......why can nothing be done?

Why do these renters have to be provided a fourm for their repetitious, manipluative profit making?

Why is Disney not permitted to enforce it's rules against renting for profit?

Like I said....maybe Im naive, but I think that if enough DVC members are as outraged as I am at the EXTENT that some will take this renting manipulation, then maybe voices will be heard?

Do you all really think it too lofty a goal?....Is it really best just to sit down and shut up? Hard to believe......

Pa@okw95

11-26-2004, 03:27 PM

There should be no renting out of points and only the people of record should be allowed to check in. Guests could be allowed but only if the owners were present. Capacity limits should also be inforced.

KNWVIKING

11-26-2004, 03:28 PM

Don't be offended by the replies you read here. We've just been down this road so many times it just gets a little tiring. And to be honest, the way your thread is titled is more then a little misleading. My first thought was " oh boy, another alias for ....... trying to raise rental prices" .

Quadman

11-26-2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Pa@okw95
There should be no renting out of points and only the people of record should be allowed to check in. Guests could be allowed but only if the owners were present. Capacity limits should also be inforced.

Personally I'd be willing to slack off more than that. I'd just like to target those who purchase for the purpose of renting out in volume for profits sake.

Something like cash nights rented by members can not be paid for in advance and must be paid for at check in on the members credit card.

This would prevent the reselling or transfering of cash nights at member discounts, and at least allow those nights to remain in the system. Also would eliminate the possibility of the manipluative reservations I discuss above.

KNWVIKING

11-26-2004, 03:42 PM

***"There should be no renting out of points and only the people of record should be allowed to check in. "***

I have no problem with a member renting their points if a situation arises where they can't use them. Maybe someday I'll find myself unemployeed and I'll rent my points to pay the dues and maybe a bag of groceries or two.

***"Guests could be allowed but only if the owners were present. "***

Totally disagree with this part though. I let my DS have a week during spring break. I sure wouldn't want to drive to FL just to let him check in.

Quadman

11-26-2004, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
Don't be offended by the replies you read here. We've just been down this road so many times it just gets a little tiring. And to be honest, the way your thread is titled is more then a little misleading. My first thought was " oh boy, another alias for ....... trying to raise rental prices" .

I agree that the thread title is misleading.....I apologize for tis. It's just after a little while of lurking here I've seen that the thread titles that are 'SPUN" well usually remain high on the view list, and as I had posted my intention here is to raise some kind of outcry.

And thanks for telling me not to be offended by the replies, I knew that this topic was going to bring some comments, and frankly I'm hoping for it.

If there really are reasons that these things can't be changed, I don't want to be the only one trying the impossible, but I see options, so I wonder....thats all.....

PS - An interesting note would be that the thread that kind of started me on this treck has now been removed from the Rent/Trade board. I hope this one gets to remain.

KNWVIKING

11-26-2004, 04:07 PM

***"If there really are reasons that these things can't be changed, I don't want to be the only one trying the impossible, but I see options, so I wonder....thats all....."***

Bottom line is that Disney left this muddy loop hole open and has no desire to try and fix it as it costs them nothing for leaving it open. I think the only silver lining is that the abusers are in the extreme minority.

cruise-o-matic

11-26-2004, 04:14 PM

But are cash night options part of the official DVC rules that cannot be changed? If not then the cash night perk should only be for reservations made in the Member's name for member stays only. This would prevent renting cash nights.

This would not take away from renting out nights reserved on points. You paid for them, do as you please.

Sorry for my cluelessness on the cash night subject.

OneMoreTry

11-26-2004, 04:59 PM

The discount cash nights are usually not available until 2 or 3 months before the reservation date. These discounts are limited to a small amt of inventory. I seriously doubt you can book these at the 7 month window, much less the 11.

Has anyone ever tried to get a discounted room and not been able to?

****

I hope DVC doesn't restrict renting of points. It allows members to recoup value from years they can't use points and may even allow some members to keep their points during times of financial stress.

I don't see how DVC could market the points as "ownership" and not allow renting.

*****

I think this thread and others like it are VERY IMPORTANT for DVC and its members.

:earsboy:

tjkraz

11-27-2004, 01:10 PM

Here is the number one reason that rules surrounding point rental for profit will never change.

Care to guess who the single largest for-profit renter of DVC points might be? How about The Walt Disney Company.

DVC retains a portion of ownership at each resort. Part of the reason for this is to allow them to set rooms aside ahead of time and subsequently lease those rooms to non-members at prices well above the rates even we DVC members charge. DVC also acquires additional points via trade options and so forth. These are used for the same purpose.

The bottom line is that the language in the agreements about not using DVC in a for-profit venture is BARELY enforcable. They could probably use that to hammer anyone who tried to run an actual business from within a DVC room.

Other than that, any attempts to break up current rental activities or modify the rules to dissuade point rental would result in legal action. DVC would lose. End of story.

Besides, if Disney could do something about for-profit point rental, don't you think they would? Nearly every time a non-member rents points for a Disney stay, they are taking money out of Disney's pockets. These are people who WANT to stay at a Disney resort, but find a cheaper way to do it than giving their cash to WDW. Yes, you could argue that point rental activities have directly and indirectly lead to additional DVC point sales. You could also argue that without the rental option, some people would simply choose to stay off site. But Disney still loses siginificant dollars to renters. Imagine if Disney had captive access to the larger DVC rooms (1B, 2B, GVs) for cash ressies. These rooms would certainly bring in the $400-700 daily rates that Disney tries to charge. Yes, there are people in the world with that much disposable income. :) But, as it stands now, why pay that much when you can rent points for a 2b for $200 per night.

The reality is that IF Disney / DVC could do something to amend the current rules, they probably would. I just don't believe they could legally do so.

lizziepooh

11-27-2004, 02:21 PM

I was under the impression that in order to get a member cash discount, the member had to actually be on the reservation and check in. Is that not correct?

Quadman

11-27-2004, 02:23 PM

tjkraz.... I can see what you are saying about Disney/DVC being unwilling to do something, and I do agree that they should see lost revenue on occasion from allowing NON DVC individuals to find lower rates when they probably would have otherwise bought through Disney.

But again..... I don't see why with the spirit of the DIS boards being what it is that the boards would really be the 'store front' for those that would choose to make DVC a business.

Could the moderators not accept submissions for posting and be the only ones permitted to post, all other communication could take place by PM. But the moderator would immediately have a feel for the frequency of the posts by a single individual. I know it's more time consuming, but hey this is a community, right??

As only ONE example I would point to the threads below. All started by the SAME POSTER between 04-09-2003 and today. Does the DIS board really condone this kind of thing by ommiting regulations that would prevent it? I mean seriously....take a look, this must be one heck of a contract.......

# 1 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=353354
# 2 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=354258
# 3 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=357575
# 4 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=357841
# 5 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=357854
# 6 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=361354
# 7 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=359844
# 8 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=361356
# 9 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=363716
# 10 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=364413
# 11 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=366359
# 12 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=366362
# 13 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=366368
# 14 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=371705
# 15 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=369071
# 16 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=369591
# 17 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=370343
# 18 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=370346
# 19 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=371653
# 20 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=373100
# 21 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=373808
# 22 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=373657
# 23 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=380599
# 24 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=380639
# 25 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=394991
# 26 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=394989
# 27 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=395629
# 28 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=396256
# 29 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=397807
# 30 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=397845
# 31 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=398880
# 32 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=403076
# 33 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=412826
# 34 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=414073
# 35 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=416692
# 36 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=417981
# 37 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=418446
# 38 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=422146
# 39 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=422203
# 40 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=424623
# 41 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=429172
# 42 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=429764
# 43 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=432306
# 44 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=433362
# 45 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=439134
# 46 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=439138
# 47 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=686474
# 48 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=686471
# 49 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=682526
# 50 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=679091
# 51 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=670721
# 52 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=669492
# 53 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=669507
# 54 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=669501
# 55 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=665984
# 56 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=665989
# 57 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=654277
# 58 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=654274
# 59 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=640241
# 60 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=640112
# 61 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=640107
# 62 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=640092
# 63 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=640063
# 64 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=637618
# 65 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=636366
# 66 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=632035
# 67 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=624724
# 68 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=624691
# 69 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=624689
# 70 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=620198
# 71 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=614243
# 72 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=615058
# 73 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=613673
# 74 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=611070
# 75 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=609774
# 76 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=601044
# 77 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=564836
# 78 http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=512723

lizziepooh

11-27-2004, 02:48 PM

I was under the impression that in order to get the member cash discount, the member had to be on the reservation and be there to check in. Is that not correct?

erikthewise

11-27-2004, 03:07 PM

Quadman,

Well that certainly IS impressive, in a negative way. While it would be interesting to speculate on the true nature of this particular case, let me just say it does appear that regulation of this type of behavior would be appropriate. Just place a reasonable limit on the number of threads and/or posts on the Rent/Trade board, if the software will allow that.

Quadman

11-27-2004, 04:02 PM

I was under the impression that in order to get the member cash discount, the member had to be on the reservation and be there to check in. Is that not correct?

I think that you can in fact make a reservation using points and cash in someone elses name. Although I've not personally done that, as I stated in my original message, this is what was offered to me....a selection in fact.....

tjkraz

11-27-2004, 05:29 PM

The DVC rules do specifically state that the 25% cash discount can only be obtained if the member is staying in the room. Whether that is strictly adhered-to is another issue. I've read posts from people who said that they were refused the cash discount when trying to book it in another's name.

tjkraz

11-27-2004, 05:35 PM

Does the DIS board really condone this kind of thing by ommiting regulations that would prevent it?

You'd have to pose that question to a moderator, or perhaps someone higher up the ladder. My guess is that changing the rules would only be a minor annoyance to people who follow this practice.

I could think of several easy ways to circumvent the types of rules you are proposing. Again, in the interest of not planting seeds in others' heads, I won't elaborate.

And then there's eBay. Right now this forum is regarded by many as THE place to come to rent points. If The DIS tries to restrict the types of posts that are allowed, another site will likely rise to fill the voide. Then sites like Allearsnet and Mousesavers will just start to steer people to eBay or an alternative site.

Quadman

11-27-2004, 06:32 PM

You'd have to pose that question to a moderator, or perhaps someone higher up the ladder. My guess is that changing the rules would only be a minor annoyance to people who follow this practice.

I could think of several easy ways to circumvent the types of rules you are proposing. Again, in the interest of not planting seeds in others' heads, I won't elaborate.

And then there's eBay. Right now this forum is regarded by many as THE place to come to rent points. If The DIS tries to restrict the types of posts that are allowed, another site will likely rise to fill the voide. Then sites like Allearsnet and Mousesavers will just start to steer people to eBay or an alternative site.

Well, the question was kind of rhetorical, one to prompt some discussion.

But I do disagree with your comments about renters being steered elsewhere if restrictions were put in place on the Rent/Trade board to prevent the worst professional renters from posting as frequently as they do. How would this be a bad thing?

I agree that the DIS boards is THE place to search out points and reservations for rent. I would think that in restricting, or filtering out the professional renters would in effect reduce their market dramatically, and maybe over time even reduce the motivation for as many to do it as currently are.

If another board were to pop up to accommodate those professional renters then that would provide a nice concentrated profiteering effort for Disney/DVC to ignore…. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn’t……

Either way, the Rent/Trade board within the DIS Board community would certainly feel a little more community like, RIght now it's kind of like a nice whlesome little league baseball game with the the occasional ticket scalper wandering around…..

And we'd also have the side benefit of not having the professional renters inviting us to pay 2-3 x our member rates for room nights that the professional renter may cancel in another day or two.....

Well at least this is one way for me to check out the Royal Pacific Resort at Universal...... Sad but true....... :guilty:

goldilocks_63

11-27-2004, 06:57 PM

Quadman

11-27-2004, 08:03 PM

I'd like to stop professional renters, who book up the best times, etc....

But from another prospective, I just recently rented out last years points, because of unemployment.

It helped me, and the renter was so pleased, that they bought into DVC afterwards (just wanted to try it out first).

I have no idea how they could get rid of excessive renting.... I've heard that they monitor the usage of high point people... but for me, I really needed that option, and it had a happy ending for all concerned.

Goldi

I feel the same way you do Goldilocks....I looked and saw that the attraction of Disney would make this an easy "Timeshare" to rent/lease out on the years that we did not want to use it (Yeah, like thats going to happen). But I'm against people looking and saying "Hey, heres a way that I can abuse the system and get much more than my fair share out of the deal....." that portion of the deal thats more than fair.....that's not theirs, it mine(yours, ours).

DVCconvert

11-27-2004, 08:06 PM

"quadman"

Untill you post pictures of those thighs of yours......many will simply just 'write you off' ! :rolleyes:

Quadman

11-27-2004, 08:23 PM

"quadman"

Untill you post pictures of those thighs of yours......many will simply just 'write you off' ! :rolleyes:

Forgive when I say, Huh?? Maybe just over my head.....But if it will help the 'cause'...

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/HEALTH/conditions/03/07/short.thighs.ap/story.thigh.jpg

LIFERBABE

11-27-2004, 08:54 PM

Quadman,
Sorry you couldnt get your ressie. Yes it does stink that others hold a ressie that you could use, but they want more than you are willing to pay.

I don't think it is fair that you picked out one poster to make your example. That is not in the "spirit" of the board either regardless of how obvious it is.

This is a "free" discussion board. Why should they be tasked with the expense of filtering who's a business and who is not? I like the option of being able to rent my points, and if not here then on Ebay or yahoo groups or I'll post a flyer at work if need be. If I was the Webmaster, I would eliminate the Rent/Trade board before I tried to police it. It is not a discussion thread, so discussions are removed.

As far as Cash ressies with a DVC discount, those are not available at the 11 month window and most likely was made later. I also understood the rules to read that the member had to occupy the discounted room. If DVC is overlooking this, then that should be taken up at the next Member Update or in writing to management.

DVC wrote the POS to protect themselves, not the members, so plan accordingly.

DrTomorrow

11-28-2004, 12:33 AM

I bought into DVC knowing that renting was allowed. In my eyes, it is a dual benefit: I can rent out my unused points, and I can rent more to make up for a one-time shortfall. I have no problem with other owners renting their points, as long as they follow the rules laid out by Disney. I do what I can - within the system - to maximize my value (day.by.day ressies, scheduling trips around AP dates, calling right at the 11/7 dates, limiting weekend stays); I don't begrudge the same to any other owner / poster.

I have no problem with any and all renters using the DIS Rent/Trade board; I hope it will be around for the next 49 years. I think it is totally unrealistic to expect the fine folks who provide the DIS (thanks, by the way!) to monitor / track / police each and every R/T board posting. I'm with LIFERBABE; I'd be afraid that, if it started to be a problem, they'd just shut it down.

I'm not even convinced that the behaviour you've mentioned (the legal parts, anyway) harms the greater DVC Owner community. 400 points out of what, 4,000,000 at a resort - trivial....

IMHO - YMMV

jekjones1558

11-28-2004, 06:00 AM

RWishbone

11-28-2004, 07:04 AM

I own 650 points at the BWV and I enjpy the planning of the trips as much as the trip itself. I have never rented points to anyone although I have exchanged points withother members and I have rented points from members.
That being said, I would not be in favor of any restrictions which would limit a members ability to rent points for cash. In my opinion, the DVC has continued to grow due in part to members who purchased points and now rent them. I think it is similiar to the regular real estate market in a way. My home has increased in value the past 10 years in part due to people who people who buy property and rent it.

erikthewise

11-28-2004, 07:46 AM

The particular case raised by Quadman is not a case of an individual renting his/her points. This is a business that rents other people's points. They explicitly solicit other people's excess points (eg post 59). Apparently several thousand points have been rented through this business.

Whether you see this as a nuisance or a valuable service is not my point; my point is that IF the moderators of this board choose to restrict this practice, it need not impede anyone's right or ability to rent his/her own points. I agree that this board has no obligation to oversee this practice. OTOH they certainly have every right to do so, as this business is making money by using the resources provided by this board.

As far as time and effort go, that is provided by volunteers so it's up to them. But it does not appear to me that an extraordinary amount of effort would be required. Certain forums are moderated at an effort level higher than would be required here.

timC

11-28-2004, 07:53 AM

Assume:
Investment = 400 points @$70pp = $28,000
Cashflow/yr = 400 points X ($10pp - $4 dues) = $2,400

Payback period = 11.7 years.

Not even accounting for lost interest, inflation and taxes, this already a bad investment. There really can't be that many "professionals" out there to worry about. That's probably why DVC does nothing about this... As it is, renting is simply not a viable business.

Muushka

11-28-2004, 08:26 AM

I was noticing this activity and wrote to the webmaster concerning it. I was told that they don't see anything wrong with what certain people are doing.
Boy was I surprised. I agree with those that feel that this board is being used as a business by a few members. Totally wrong. I don't understand why a rent-per-point cannot have a restriction on the max amount in order to post on the rent-trade board.

Dean

11-28-2004, 09:24 AM

Quadman, this is situation where you must separate your feelings and what YOU feel is right from what the rules actually say. You must also understand there are governing laws outside DVC.

First, I doubt people are booking many rooms at the member discount and renting them out. The rules in place to get the member discount is that the member must be STAYING in the unit itself. Plus I doubt it would be profitable to rent out rooms gotten at this price, even if they are weekends.

As for taking away the Rent/Trade Board, I doubt that would help much and might make things worse. You'd likely drive some people toward ebay and the like. There are a number of other non DIS options to rent points, I can think of about 9 right now that are very low cost or NO cost to list. And all would cater more to non members.

As for the ability to rent, we’ve argued this many times. I’ll try to be as factual as possible then editorialize where I feel it’s helpful or appropriate. First, the legal paperwork specifically states in several places that it is OK to rent you points. Then there are two references to limits or not renting. One refers to the fact one should not expect to buy to rent for a profit, this obviously refers to expectations and not the right or ability to rent. That leaves only one passes, that referring to commercial renting. DVC did not include a definition of commercial renting. OK, now I’ll more give my take on it. The passage about expectations obviously refers to expectation that is would be difficult to make a profit doing so and not the right or ability to rent itself. It stems from the common timeshares sales ploy of convincing people they can buy then rent out for a profit. It is my opinion that DVC would have difficulty enforcing the commercial issue as long as one is doing it “privately” and especially as long as WDW is renting them. If one hung up a neon sign, that would be different. I know agree and others disagree. And it is my opinion that it is inconsistent to take the stance one should have limited rental rights and not be concerned that Disney is renting the units for profit. I believe the ONLY questions in renting itself is what is a legally enforceable definition of “commercial” and is DVC willing to attempt to enforce it.

As for changing the rules on renting, that would be difficult. It would require a vote of the actual membership itself. Plus I feel legally they wouldn’t be able to do so. One reason I feel this way is that DVC and WDW rent out units and the courts dealing with condo’s have routinely found that when the developer or association rent, you can’t restrict owners more than the developer or association.

As for a side discussion of reserving and renting only the weekdays, my answers are the same. It’s the way the system is set up though I think it could be changed to a degree. If it were changed, it would be changed for everyone, not just renters. The longest DVC can require is a 5 day reservation but I do feel they could require for one to include Fri through Sunday as a component.

I know it leaves a bad taste in some people’s mouth when they see something for rent but can’t reserve it themselves. And while I understand the feelings, they are irrational, IMO. This is the system we bought into, legally, even if it’s not what we thought it was at the time we bought. I think of it like the class size amendment in FL, when people found out it had a cost and consequences like little or no teacher raises, they didn’t want it them but it was too late, at least unless they put it on the ballot again.

I think the practice one might be able to work on is the one of transferring points in then renting them out. Or the fact that if one transfers HH points to BCV, you can reserve BCV at the 11 month window.

When one reserves FOR ANY REASON, they are taking units away from other members, this is the nature of a floating or points system and not limited to rentals. And it is my guess that the number of units taken for rental in this manner is very small overall. They are limited by availability and the booking windows. Any member is free to call at the booking windows and reserve, even day by day if they chose. So no matter how much one rents, they are not taking away the actual ability for one member to secure their desired reservation. The fact that one’s personal situation makes it difficult for a member to reserve in advance is not, IMO, applicable to the discussion.

I’m sure you will get a lot of people supporting your concern but the legalities and POS speak for themselves as long as one understands the issues and looks beyond the borders of DVC itself. For reference, I do an occasional rental, usually about one a year. I rarely post on the Rent/Trade Board and usually only if I have something I can’t use or once when I had a rental go bad. And it amuses me that people want DVC to be more strict than the legal issues would allow and “enforce the rules” in this arena and so lax when it comes to the occupancy limits.

Disney Doll

11-28-2004, 09:26 AM

We've been DVCers since 1997, and I have never agreed with the notion of renting points as a money-making proposition. I am glad to have the ability to do it if I get in a jam, which has happened only once in all the years we've owned, and even then, I rented to points ot another DVCer who needed just 5 more points to be able to do the reservation they wanted for their own use, so I felt good to be able to help! them out of a jam as much as they were helping me out of a jam!

That being said, since there's no hard and fast "rule" about renting or not renting points for profit and tying up reservations to do so, there's not much we can do. Not everyone has integrity or character, even when it comes to Disney.

CaptainMidnight

11-28-2004, 09:47 AM

.... Not everyone has integrity or character, even when it comes to Disney.
Agreed.

I have a problem with those individuals who repeatedly book prime time holiday periods and auction those prime periods off through a website or other maximum profit method. I don't have a problem with occasional renting through our rent/trade board on this site, or even someone doing this on a one time basis because they know they cannot vacation this year. But individuals who rent more than they actually use the points themselves for family, friends, etc. and use these practices which block out owners from the hard to get holiday times I have a problem with. I think there is a substantial case to be made that these practices constitute commercial use and thus violate the papers we signed. However, I look to the Board and DVC leadership to determine if the practice is harmful enough to members that the commercial use clause needs to be more strictly enforced. I'm pleased with thier recent decision that 5 in a one bedroom is OK, and trust thier judgement on when it is appropriate to be more forceful in enforcing renting points as a business practice.

To those claiming that excessive for profit rental practices do not break the rules of the document we signed, I can only say that is your opinion, and nothing more, regardless of how factually you attempt to word or present your opinion.
http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/ed/target1.gif

CapeCodFam

11-28-2004, 09:48 AM

As far as I'm aware, DVC allows members to book vacations for friends, family, the world. ( A pretty good benefit for those who are of a giving nature). For those not so giving, they rent their points from time to time. A select few, as you mentioned, are pushing their membership to the fullest extent allowed by the rules.

While the select few are distasteful to me, I don't begrudge them for operating within the rules.

LIFERBABE

11-28-2004, 10:35 AM

I hear you. I was waitlisted for dates that the "frequent" poster offered and was shocked at his prices. I am still waiting for one day but refuse to encourage this type of renting, so I am not dealing with him.

Good luck on your waitlist jekjones!

ITA! Do I find it unsavory? Yes! But as members, we have the option to not deal with these people. I just got off the waitlist for my December dates and someone on the RTB had posted my dates for a hefty sum, but was coming up on the 31 day mark and said they would cancel on Nov 24. I called MS on Nov 24 and Voila! my waitlist came through! Coincidence or not? These people arent doing anyone any favors, for the non member, they may as well book with CRO for cash and take the safety over renting at exorbitant amounts. For members every time we rent from them it encourages this practice.

I too have transferred to members, as little as 3 points to help them complete an important ressie at the 11 month window. It does feel good to be able to help out. Some people are out for themselves not just DVC but everywhere.

My DH will be able to go to WDW with us for a few days in Dec. I only purchased MVMCP tickets for myself and 2 dh's. They are sold out for our date. I really would like for us to go as a family, but the Ebay listing I found wants $600 for 2 adult tickets! That totally rubs me the wrong way to think that we wont enjoy MVCMP as a family because some people saw a business opportunity!

sandieb

11-28-2004, 11:36 AM

I have been reading the Boards for a couple years...I guessed I missed the discussions on using points for profit. I think that it is unfair to make reservations over holidays and peak times for rental. I wish Disney had a way to control it. After all, this is about members taking a vacation.
Sandie B

tjkraz

11-28-2004, 11:46 AM

We've been DVCers since 1997, and I have never agreed with the notion of renting points as a money-making proposition.

The only observation that I'll throw out is that we, as members, probably have a lot of resaons to be thankful for the ability to rent points. Reason number one would be the impact it has had on the growth of DVC. My family is a perfect example. We never would have given DVC even 5 minutes of our time for a sales presentation if not for our discovery of renting points. We had four adults going to WDW back in 2002, and had planned from the outset to just get two moderate rooms. Long story short, we discovered that we could book a Two Bedroom at OKW on rented point for LESS money than the moderate rooms. 14 months later we became members ourselves.

I've seen countless messages from people in the same position we were in: "we're renting points to check out DVC before we buy."

We'll never really know the number of new members generated by the ability to rent points, but I bet it is significant. There may not be a Saratoga Springs resort today without the sales that were indirectly generated by the rental market. And, whatever growth DVC experiences further down the road (Contemporary, off-site, etc.) will have been at least partially facilitated by the rental market.

simpilotswife

11-28-2004, 01:51 PM

I agree that "for profit" rentals should not be allowed. Unfortunately it does not seem as though anything will be done about it.

Disney Doll

11-28-2004, 03:01 PM

I think there is a difference between a member realizing that "gee, this year we aren't going to be able to go to WDW(how sad!)...maybe I can rent my points so someone else could use them" and "let me buy 600 points and tie up some popular reservation weeks and then hose someone who tries to rent them from me by charging a large amount of money". I agree that rentals, to a certain extent, help others realize the benefits and beauty of the DVC, and therefore should be encouraged. I just don't think they should be done constantly by a few peopel who do it for profit only. Yes, it is technically "legal", but that still doesn't make it 100% ethical.

Just MHO.

calypso*a*go-go

11-28-2004, 03:06 PM

DrTomorrow

11-28-2004, 03:39 PM

LIFERBABE

11-28-2004, 03:55 PM

Perhaps at some point DVC will only allow ressies to be made in the contract owner's name during the holiday weeks that are in such high demand. That would eliminate the ability for profit-motivated "landlords" to hoard peak times and sell them to the highest bidder (unless they want to vacation right along with their renters!).

That I would not have a problem with. But isnt that what they are doing now? Reserving prime weeks in their name and then renting them and transferring them to the renter's name?

There is no way of requlating this that would be positive for the majority of owners. I hope to have a large gathering in the next 48 years during Christmas week. That is my DVC dream. With the added regulations how would this be possible? DVC could limit you to 1 or 2 unit reservations during Premier seasons but there's goes my dream because I would need several units.

I remember when purchasing, my guide told me the story of the member whose daughter wed at WDW and he used points to pay for everyone to stay at OKW in a studio for 2 weeknights. I think he used 2 years worth of points, but the guests were thrilled!
How could we do this for our families or something similar if we try to regulate the bad apples?

So no one is saying that it is right, moral, or ethical. It is allowed because to disallow it would hurt and punish more members than the few it is trying to stop.

What DVC should do, is start doing a little one on one detective work and identify those that are conducting or appear to be conducting "commercial" activity of Prime weeks. They could send a nice reminder from the legal department of what is allowed. This may still impact the casual renter but at least the offenders would get the message. Of course our dues would go up! LOL

CarolA

11-28-2004, 04:37 PM

If you don't like it... here is what you can do.

Get thier contact info.... Call the IRS and explain that you have reason to believe that persona A is not reporting this income. (I am willing to bet that most renters don't report the income)

Dean

11-28-2004, 04:58 PM

Mickmse2002

11-30-2004, 11:41 AM

This point has been argued extensively. Let me go on the record to say I have never rented points from anyone nor have I ever rented points to anyone. Now having said that here is my two cents worth. As aggravating as it can be to not have what we want available when we want it, everyone has the same opportunity to reserve a room on points. We all have the same rights under the rules to make a reservation at either the 11 month or 7 month windows. That is the system we all bought into, it hasn't changed. You will always be in competetion with the other 85,000 members, and DVC itself, when making a reservation.

Disney Doll

11-30-2004, 12:33 PM

I agree with you Mickmse. We all do have the same opportunity. I htink some folks feel though like the renters book up the good stuff at the 11 month window just to have it to sell, without a personal trip planned. There are times when I know 11 months in advance when I am travelling to WDW, and there are times when I don't know. If I don't know, I don't just pick a popular week and book "just in case"...I don't book until I am sure.

DisneyDVClover

11-30-2004, 04:14 PM

Well it is in the contract that we can rent our points out so I see no real issue with it honestly.

Quadman

11-30-2004, 07:57 PM

Manipulation of the system beyond what is being discussed here is happening I believe. As others have said there is no point in discussing the specifics on the boards as this will only encourage others. I have personally been offered combinations of cash and point reservations, with weeks to choose from offered by an individual. And if I can figure out how to make these reservations (Cash and points) many months out Im sure more devious minds have done much better.

Since I posted this topic a range of responses have been offered but the general sentiment seems to be that you can't stop it.

One of my hopes was that the board would take it upon themselves to use some kind of low effort monitoriing or restricting of the posts on the Rent/Trade board to prevent conspicious abuse (my opinion abuse, perhaps not yours...). As some others have mentioned (and I agree) the total effort required is not all that significant and this is a volunteer board, Im sure some assistance could be found among the members of DVC on the DIS.

And just so you know......We have stayed at DVC properties during our past 4 trips to Disney, and as you can see from my Sig below, our first trip to our home only takes place in April of 2005. We still have two more DVC rentals that we will visit on before that April trip. So I am a full supporter of the flexability offered by renting points, in fact we probably we not have bought without having rented first. What I am not a supporter of is professional DVC renters for profit.

And I have no problem competing with the '85 000' DVC members.....Im just not keen on competiting with the NON DVC members who are encouraged to rent one of the many reservations DVC professional renters provide to them.

tinkerbee

11-30-2004, 08:17 PM

I remember when purchasing, my guide told me the story of the member whose daughter wed at WDW and he used points to pay for everyone to stay at OKW in a studio for 2 weeknights. I think he used 2 years worth of points, but the guests were thrilled!
How could we do this for our families or something similar if we try to regulate the bad apples?

Thats so funny because I heard the same story!!!! :rolleyes:

Mickmse2002

12-01-2004, 06:41 AM

And I have no problem competing with the '85 000' DVC members.....Im just not keen on competiting with the NON DVC members who are encouraged to rent one of the many reservations DVC professional renters provide to them.

I think perhaps you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. We aren't in competetion with a NON DVC renter, we are in competetion with a DVC member who reserves a block of time and then subsequently rents that time out. We all have the same opportunities, within our respective home resorts to reserve the same blocks of time. that was the point I was trying to make. You see a trend during these threads and it goes something like this: "I don't mind the 'casual' renter or rentee, that's ok and what the system was intended to provide. I don't like the 'professional' renter or non dvc rentee as this is an abuse of the system". Trying to distinguish between the two are nearly impossible.

I use to maintain that home resort wasn't really all that important because i was always able to get a reservation I want at 7 months. As DVC continues to grow and renting becomes more popular this is no longer the case and the 11 month window is becoming more critical. Plan early and reserve early.

erikthewise

12-01-2004, 09:25 AM

You see a trend during these threads and it goes something like this: "I don't mind the 'casual' renter or rentee, that's ok and what the system was intended to provide. I don't like the 'professional' renter or non dvc rentee as this is an abuse of the system". Trying to distinguish between the two are nearly impossible.

Quadman didn't find it the least bit difficult, and neither do I.

The casual renter offers his/her own points for rental on a sporadic basis.

The professional renter deals with many thousands of points, either purchased under multiple contracts for the sole purpose of renting, or solicited from members wishing to rent, or both. S/He posts scores of rental ads, essentially operating a business somewhat similar to those that handle timeshare resales, only dealing with rentals.

Whether or not one finds this activity objectionable, I don't see any problem making the distinction.

Mickmse2002

12-01-2004, 09:54 AM

Quadman didn't find it the least bit difficult, and neither do I.

The casual renter offers his/her own points for rental on a sporadic basis.

The professional renter deals with many thousands of points, either purchased under multiple contracts for the sole purpose of renting, or solicited from members wishing to rent, or both. S/He posts scores of rental ads, essentially operating a business somewhat similar to those that handle timeshare resales, only dealing with rentals.

Whether or not one finds this activity objectionable, I don't see any problem making the distinction.
I am not trying to defend "professional renters" I just wonder how big a problem it really is? Is there any empirical evidence available to support the argument? The only point I was/am trying to make is we tend to see many very pointed and passionate posts about this evil practice and yet everyone has the same opportunity to book any room with their points.

RuthnPaul

12-01-2004, 11:48 AM

We purchased several contracts this past year that had banked points. Because we knew we would be unable to use all of these points, we decided to rent a number of them. Some people who want to rent points are fairly knowledgeable of the point system including cancellation policies while others are definitely NOT informed. After spending considerable time the last few weeks to rent out these points, there is NO way I would ever consider doing this as a business and I don't think most members would either!!

calypso*a*go-go

12-01-2004, 12:16 PM

I agree w/RuthnPaul. We were seriously considering an add-on but after looking at the big picture we decided against it as there would definitely be times we would have to rent points and don't really want to travel down that road. We'll just try to make the most of what we've got (for now anyway!).

Doctor P

12-01-2004, 12:49 PM

I think the problem of commercial rentals is much larger than one would think, but it is still probably a drop in the bucket with 90,000 members. I can name easily a dozen persons I am familiar with who are clearly running a business renting points, and that is just from being observant and watching patterns.

erikthewise

12-01-2004, 01:23 PM

It is a drop in the bucket if randomly distributed. But part of Quadman's original point (IMO) was that it is not likely to be randomly distributed. As few as 10K points spent to grab rooms at a particular resort for a couple days can have a significant impact on availability. And you can bet it will be at popular times because they will bring the best price.

CRSNDSNY

12-01-2004, 01:30 PM

That restriction would not be within the rules. DVC can do a special season preference list or lottery which gives them more flexibility for restrictions.
Didn't they do a lottery system with the Millenium ring-in?

DisneyDVClover

12-01-2004, 01:57 PM

We have never had any issues getting a room at 7 months even at BWV and VWL we even got our request at BWV at 3 weeks out.

Dean

12-01-2004, 07:08 PM

Didn't they do a lottery system with the Millenium ring-in?Yes and it was a flop from what I could see. The reservations were easily available later and those that did reserve with the idea of renting for big bucks weren't able to do so. This is the proper constraint to the rental system. Anyone who buys DVC points just to rent better do so for a couple of years then sell the membership as they will lose big time if they hold onto it for a while.

As I've said before, anyone that does DVC rentals as a "business" is nuts. There is no real money to be made and the risks are too great. If that were my goal, I'd want a return similar to any risky venture, one to exceed 10% PLUS a return of my principle fairly quickly. And since there is no definition of "professional renter", every person has their own. To one person it's only OK when you'd lose the points and no one else wants a reservation and only for the maint fees. For others, me included, anyone within the points limits of ownership specified (2000/5000) by DVC is OK. And all phases in between.

Plus the fact remains that there would be no easy or likely reasonable way to prevent "commercial" rentals at least as many see it without interfering with the right to rent.

wychwood

12-01-2004, 07:20 PM

I'm fairly new to the DISboards and I do not own points however I am actively looking to rent points for a family vacation in Oct/Nov 2005. I think it is great that owners can rent their unused/unwanted points. It gives people such as myself the opportunity to provide a Disney vacation for my family and even be able to stay on-site longer than I otherwise would. This actually IMHO is a boon to Disney as that is extra time we will all be eating at Disney restaurants and spending money within the park. As I have never before rented points, I have been frustrated in renting the points I require (in one instance the renter mistook when her points had to be used by and in the second instance the individual wanted what I considered to be a premium price per point. The fact that payment could be made by VISA suggested to me that possibly this individual was using the system as a business....anyway, I am anxious to vacation at a DVC property as I think, depending on our experience, we will consider becoming DVC members. Personally, should we take the plunge, I would only rent points to help pay for the annual dues during the years we did not vacation at disney.

I have also noticed that periodically Expedia offers trips to DVC resorts. How does this happen?? If this is a dumb question, please excuse my ignorance. I'm new to this.

Dean

12-01-2004, 07:57 PM

Peterd

12-01-2004, 08:26 PM

Quadman,
I can understand how you feel. We've been members since 96. We used to drive down from NY, and go wow we're making great time, call up from Georgia, and get lucky with a room a day early. There is no way we could get that lucky again. We only fly now, but early check-ins still happen, but are rare unless it's Okw.
We used to be able to reserve anytime out. A few years ago, things changed. We would wait til about 6 months out to decide to get rooms, and be shut out. We were shut out because we didn't know we were going at 11 months out. This used to tick us off that members would rent out premier times to non-members shutting us out. We would post and post, saying how wrong it was. We then realized that the resv. on a short notice was a thing of a past, and had to start reserving earlier.
Now we've learned. We have a lot of points. We usually get a bunch of rooms in Nov, and rooms in Feb and April. We've rented from members on the site for these stays, thanks Dean etc... We have also rented out to friends.
We've decided we won't be shut out again. We now reserve our rooms for President's week and the spring vacation at 11 months out in case we DO want to go. We'll borrow points, so If we decide not to go to Disney, we'll sell our resv and use the money for a cruise or trip out west.
We're not making a habit or living out of it. We are just keeping our options open. We most likely will go to each resv. we make, but if not we'll use the money for another destination. I don't know about you, but it seems to us, the rate of exchange for other resorts outside of Disney is not that great.
An example, we wanted to use points for a Disney cruise. They wanted about 800 points for our party. I rented out a two bedroom in Aug to friends for 170 points, and it almost paid for our whole cruise with Royal Carribean.
So we're not scalpers or travel agents, just keeping our options open.
Oh, and $10 per point is a joke, I would rather give my points away, but that's another thread. :smooth:

WebmasterDoc

12-01-2004, 11:50 PM

Didn't they do a lottery system with the Millenium ring-in?

There was a Special Seasons Priority List up until the millenium and the DVC resorts were never filled using that process and is was discontinued afterwards. It has not been used since 1999, but could be resurrected if the need is there. It allowed members to reserve that week (Dec 24-31) 14 months in advance depending on their place on the list.

Since the list never filled the resorts, it didn't make much sense to continue the program. That week still is usually available well after 11 months- sometimes within 7 months.

Doctor P

12-02-2004, 06:22 AM

While Doc is almost always correct, and there has not been a Special Seasons Preference list for several years, the list was not discontinued until at least 2001 because we used the list for our Christmas 2001 trip and were able to make the reservation 13-14 months ahead as a result. They discontinued the list for the 2002 holiday season (after letting us put our names on the list early on, they then suspended use of the list as I recall). But, they have definitely not used it for several years.

WebmasterDoc

12-02-2004, 08:16 AM

The list may have covered reservations for the 2001 Christmas week, but I believe members had to be on the list by the end of 1999 in order to reserve the 2001 week 14 months ahead.

The point is that the resorts were never filled using the list and it was therefore discontinued several years ago.

DVCajun

12-02-2004, 08:38 AM

... the general sentiment seems to be that you can't stop it.

It seems to me that the general sentiment is that we're glad we have the option to rent our points when we want to.

I'd also like to add that merely observing patterns of renting points isn't always enough to determine whether someone is a 'professional renter.' We adopted our first child three and a half years ago and our second two months ago and have a couple more to go before we're done! The point is that funds have BEEN tight for over three years and will continue to BE tight for a few more. We have been renting our points either here or on ebay for that length of time. I wish we could afford to go to Disney World three times a year like we have in the past, but our current circumstances don't allow it. Am I going to sell our contract because we're broke right now? No bleeping way!!!! The point is, if you've been stalking ME for the past three years you'd likely lable me a "professional renter." You'd be wrong.

I'd also like to reiterate what others have already said-- we each have the same window of opportunity to reserve time. Whether someone reserves multiple weeks at one time is really a moot point-- if you wait until 7 months out to reserve a Christmas week vacation you're not going to get it! To get those prime times you have to call at the 11 month mark, period.

So, here's an idea-- pick up the phone and beat them (and me) to the reservation!

CaptainMidnight

12-02-2004, 05:57 PM

The bottom line is that the language in the agreements about not using DVC in a for-profit venture is BARELY enforcable. They could probably use that to hammer anyone who tried to run an actual business from within a DVC room.

Other than that, any attempts to break up current rental activities or modify the rules to dissuade point rental would result in legal action. DVC would lose. End of story.

Here's the thing. That's your opinion, not factual statements. Others on this board may well share your opinion, as they have every right to. But, the laywer I had review the documentation said it was most certainly enforcable. If you think it is "end of story" good for you. That doesn't make it a factual statement or true.

Secondly, anyone who thinks that Disney would automatically loose a case they chose to pursue does not have much court and legal preceeding experience. That statement is even more unrealistic in my opinion. Another poster described it as the 800 pound guerilla aurgument, regardless it applies.

However, I give DVC the license to decide when it is appropriate to enforce and pursue those they determine are violating the contract. I'm OK with DVC allowing for-profit-rental practices using prime holiday periods flexibility, even though I do not agree with for-profit-rental using prime holiday periods. I'm grateful that they allow me flexibility by allowing 5 in a onebedroom. Certainly that needs to be extended to other areas as well. I pay DVC management and with board oversight to make those determinations.

I don't have to like it, but it is up to the Board and Management. It ain't "End of Story....DVC would loose."

Deb & Bill

12-02-2004, 08:59 PM

... I'm grateful that they allow me flexibility by allowing 5 in a onebedroom...

Anyone want to play the Captain Midnight game to see how many times and how many ways he can work the "5 in a one bedroom" issue into a message?

:rolleyes:

bongo59

12-05-2004, 04:36 PM

well ill go the other way............i love the fact that we can rent........i owned 1500 points and needed 500 more to get acruise done for the whole family and i had no available points left.........so it was cash or rent the 500 points..........because i needed so many and the rack rates are so high renting saved me thousands. so i used the rental method. But i just bought 500 more today at SSR so i guess i should jump to the other side of the fence on this arguement but i wont. I think the flexibility is a huge reason i am in total love with DVC concept. So count me as a DVC er who says let them rent for profit. I seriously doubt that this makes up a majority of us on this forum or in the DVC memebership. Just my humble opinions here guys.

senecabeach

12-06-2004, 09:38 AM

My DVC is very precious to me. :lovestruc
I follow the rules of the 11-7 month window to make ressies and have had NO problem getting what I wanted. Thats all thats important...right?

Let me go on the record to say I have never rented points from anyone nor have I ever rented points to anyone. Nor have I rented my 4 weeks of RCI timeshares to anyone. Now having said that:

Certainly if I ever wanted to rent my RCI, I would reserve a prime week somewhere..and..rent it for a meager profit. If you could..you would too and no one in my RCI community would flame me! What makes DVC any different?

Supply & demand is free enterprise, wether on these boards or not, people will pay to go. I don't begrudge those renters/sellers.

I just don't beleive its anyones business...

ClarabelleCow

12-06-2004, 11:04 AM

Dean

12-06-2004, 06:23 PM

Well I don't have a problem with any member renting out their points. What I have a problem with is members renting out "RESERVATIONS"! That is what I think Quadman was referring to in this thread.

Also - you can get the DVC discount several months out, I called for HH in October for an August stay, and could get a discount.I don't see the difference. If one follows the rules, it is what is is. While I'd prefer not to, if one wants to get Xmas for 5 days for multiple units every year and rent them out, so be it.

Quadman

12-06-2004, 08:02 PM

Here is one of the manipulative approaches that some renters are employing. I started this thread because I think that this sort of tactic and others used by some individuals, all toward the same end (professional renting for maximum profit) is improper.

Some posters have said….. We all have points, and we all have the right to rent out….. Is this what you had in mind when you said that??

With a 320 Point contract (I know 320 is relatively small, almost microscopically small if renting for maximum profit is your game, but those of US with less than 300 pts like to think we count too!) you can do the following;

- 16 points a night for a Boardwalk Studio at the most expensive time of the year.
- Use two nights worth of points……(total of 32 points)
- Combine with 3-5 cash nights at DVC member discounts.
- Book 10 weeks worth of room nights

Offer the 10 weeks out for sale at extreme markups, short supply (partially thanks to you) and higher than usual demand will see to it that you are not to be precieved as too obscene. Those that are sold make you real money. Those that don’t (with good point management) will rarely hurt you, as you can go through the process again for the next high value season or roll over the points through banking or whatever means, and you can just cancel the cash nights for no pain at all………to you.

This process allows someone with 320 points to tie up 10 rooms for a week each during Thanksgiving period, (or Christmas, or Easter, or March Break, etc..) until a few days out. This allows that individual to make a nice profit for sitting behind their screen in exchange for allowing 10 non-DVC member families to enjoy a vacation, and presumably displace upto 10 DVC families.

So….I am sorry, yes we all can do this……this does not mean any of us should or it may jeopardize our future abilities to do much of what we enjoy (such as passive renting when our own personal circumstances make it required).

This really is a case of a few bad apples possible spoiling it for a bunch. That’s why I made my first comments about not thinking the DIS board was the place to allow these “professional for maximum profit DVC renters” to advertise their ability.

Honestly….I challenge any of you to say that this type of activity is passive….hurts no one…..does not make our future abilities to rent and transfer (basically not use points ourselves) more likely to become restricted in some way.

Anyway…… I have really enjoyed reading this thread…. And see….wasn’t nearly as bad as some at the beginning had predicted.

PS – I know that posting the ‘methods’ of the point magicians may be considered as taboo by some. While I do agree with that thinking in general, it’s impossible to really bring what is happening to peoples attention without laying it down in black and white in front of them.

I’m all for the moderators ‘editing’ this post to remove those malicious renting approaches I stated above. I think the whole thread would have more impact if the ‘dangerous’ part of the recipe for ‘Earn BIG money with your DVC points (and MY cash nights)’ were removed.

Dean

12-06-2004, 08:21 PM

Honestly….I challenge any of you to say that this type of activity is passive….hurts no one…..does not make our future abilities to rent and transfer (basically not use points ourselves) more likely to become restricted in some way.It depends on how you look at it. Since members are expressly allowed to rent, there's no danger to the "casual" renter, whoever that is, in losing this privilege. The issue isn't whether any rental hurts another member, but whether any reservation hurts another member. Every time one reserves a high demand time, that means someone else won't get it. While it may be easier for you to swallow if it goes to a member who will use it rather than a member who will rent it, to me it is the same and legally (as well as technically) it is the same. We all bought in to a system where we compete with other members, that is the reality. And when a member rents out their points, it's still the MEMBER who's using the points for their benefit. And since every member has the ability to call at 9 am 11 months out to reserve, any risks should be minimal for all but the limited supply units like GV at VB and BWV. As for commercial rentals, there is no definition in the POS or that DVC has put forth.

Quadman

12-06-2004, 10:28 PM

Well, I guess we agree to disagree....

For me, its really just as simple as I tell my children.... Treat others as you want to be treated.

"In order for you", I say to them "to have more then your fair share others have to have less than theirs......"

People CAN go to a buffet and eat, and eat and EAT.....as long as it's legal, and I have my rights, and the sign says, yada yada yada......no matter.... as far as most decent standards go.... They would more often than not be considered a pig taking advantage of a situation.

I also tell them that in order for them to 'test' if something is wrong or not they should ask themselves if they can go to who ever is in charge and have no concerns to explain what they are doing...... I don't see any of the professional renters coming here to defend their actions....under any of their various sign in names.....

And I doubt that any of them would call DVC and say to their guide "Gee, I want an add on...I made $XXXXX.XX last year renting out my points and selling off cash nights for a whopin profit. And now I want to double my contract cause Little Jhonnie wants to go to Europe this summer, I should be able to book up a good 30-40 weeks now..... Any tips??".

But...Only my opinion.......and to each his or her own..... :earboy2:

Johnnie Fedora

12-06-2004, 11:11 PM

- 16 points a night for a Boardwalk Studio at the most expensive time of the year.
- Use two nights worth of points……(total of 32 points)
- Combine with 3-5 cash nights at DVC member discounts.
- Book 10 weeks worth of room nights

Are the hypothetical renters paying more than the Disney rack rate for these these hypothetical points/cash rental reservations? How is the seller making money if he makes these types of reservations? The guest has to pay for the cash nights at check-in. So the seller never gets that money. Also, a seller making member cash reservations has to provide a credit card to hold the room. There are penelties if the reservation is not cancelled according to the cancellation policy.

I also don't understand the anger at a member who tries to rent their real estate interest for the "true value". It's OK for Disney to rent out a BCV studio for $300+ a night, but if a member asks for $13/pt ($156/night) for the same room, they are greedy profiteers. :rolleyes:

DVCPAT

12-06-2004, 11:12 PM

And I doubt that any of them would call DVC and say to their guide "Gee, I want an add on...I made $XXXXX.XX last year renting out my points and selling off cash nights for a whopin profit. And now I want to double my contract cause Little Jhonnie wants to go to Europe this summer, I should be able to book up a good 30-40 weeks now..... Any tips??".

When I joined back in 98, my guide told me I could rent points for a small profit. He also said we could have five people in a one bedroom. We are a family of four, but he stated it would be OK for the kids to bring a friend.

If I can’t get reservations for specific dates, I don’t give it much thought if a member, member friend, renter or member’s neighbor is in the room. I don’t think Disney will ever become a heavy handed landlord. I think they want the room occupants to have a great vacation and spend a few Disney dollars.

rinkwide

12-07-2004, 01:06 AM

I also don't understand the anger at a member who tries to rent their real estate interest for the "true value". It's OK for Disney to rent out a BCV studio for $300+ a night, but if a member asks for $13/pt ($156/night) for the same room, they are greedy profiteers.

My thoughts exactly.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Dean

12-07-2004, 06:23 AM

"In order for you", I say to them "to have more then your fair share others have to have less than theirs......"That's just it, your fair share is how many points you own. I'd assume you'd have the same problem with one who uses their points for holidays for a large family as the effect is the same and used for non member benefit. I'll make the point again that everyone has the ability to call and reserve at 11 months out, EVERYONE.

Doctor P

12-07-2004, 08:05 AM

cruise-o-matic

12-07-2004, 10:27 AM

You've got to admit, the person in question has become quite saavy at the rental game. I looked at the threads quadman posted. The 1st thread about 2 years ago, he was renting for $10pp. Then over time, he's been able to secure prime reservations and now offers then a $ amount but when you break it down it's now $15pp. Many think this is extortion, but when I contacted CRO for a room for 3 nights 11/4-11/7, YC was $887 and BW was $967. Studios for BCV & BWV were 58 points for those nights. So he's still offering a better deal than Disney.

He's also become quite good at buying "distressed" points that are about to expire, probably paying $5-8pp. Now is he ripping members off or providing a service? I know that if given the chance, I'd re-coup as much as I could before I'd let points expire and get nothing.

Others have posted what a hassle it is renting points. There again, would you transfer points at less than $10 and not have to go through the hassle of renting them out? Not much different than someone showing up to a football game with extra tickets and selling them at face to a scalper, or the PC term "ticket broker". Now you can use that extra time to enjoy tailgating and have cash to spend.

One could argue that he has to mark the points up to cover his risks and time to call MS (which he must do quite frequently), then have to go out and find a renter.

The Public Offering Statement from DVC does state "Purchase of an Ownership Interest or use of the Vacation Homes and facilities of the DVC Resorts for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than the personal use described in this Public Offering Statement is expressly prohibited." Now in the same paragraph, DVC's way to combat this is to limit Home resort points to 2000 and total points to 5000. In a way this makes sense, because as Dr P pointed out, someone with more points could corner the HH market during 4th of July or snag up all the OKW GV's during Easter week. (But you know, if I were going to become a professional renter, I would buy a 50-100 point BCV contract. Low initial costs and low annual MF's. Then find a way to funnel in points as I need them. Hmm, sound familiar?) BTW, how well does DVC track the expiration date and home resort of transferred points?? ;)

This being said, there is no doubt this person is a professional renter for profit. The sheer # of threads on the RTB back that up. (BTW, he had two new posts last week.) So would this constitute a "commercial purpose"? If so, can anything can be done about it? Does anybody want anything to be done about it?

I guess the analogy I would use would be like Barry Bonds' home run record. Is this guy using "steroids" (ie unfair loopholes) to secure these prime reservations? If so, should we finally get serious and ban this practice? Or would any ban cause hardship to the rest of the DVC members?

"How do you think he does it? What makes him so good?" Maybe DVC needs to look into that......Who knows, he may be "clean", and just better at keeping his eye on the ball?

Peterd

12-07-2004, 01:19 PM

I rented some points from a few other DVC members a couple years back for a family reunion. Back then, member services told me I could only have one set of points moved into my account a year. I had one set moved into my account, and had others make resvs for different parts of my party.
Has this changed? If they went by the old rule, this problem wouldn't exist. People could still own over a 1000 points and rent out, but it would prevent someone from buying up points just for the sake of being a travel agent.

Dean

12-07-2004, 01:50 PM

You know, all of this sounds great in theory, but in practice things can be very different. The analogy I would use is to scalping popular events. While it is true that any one can, in theory, stand in line or get on the Internet to buy tickets for popular events, scalpers have mastered the ability to get the tickets ahead of normal buyers. Many of the same tactics can apply to getting reservations for DVC resorts. If all of the for profit rental agents were just using their own points to secure reservations, that would be another point. But, the fact is that many of the for profits are using loopholes in the system to amass ungodly amounts of points (most of which are not their own in many cases) and rent out reservations. In theory, some of the larger operations could corner the entire market on some of the smaller resorts for a major holiday and prevent ANYONE else from reserving a studio at BCV or HH for example through the use of technology. Now, understand that I am not suggesting that this happens enough to be concerned, but I do have a problem with the tactics used (or apparently used) by some who rent their points. I still think that the simplest answer, much like concert tickets, is that you have a members' only reservation period where reservations must have the members' name on the reservation and no name changes are allowed without the room going back into the system. Alternatively, a limit on the number of reservations made during the period by a given member until a later window.Since it takes time to make reservations, there's no way to corner the market compared to another member calling at 9 am 11 months out. By the time one or two reservations were made, EVERYONE else calling at the same time would have gotten the other units in short supply. Even if one had multiple people calling, there would be significant limitations. Plus, the dollars are just not there. Since there is no official definition of commercial renter everyone here has a different one. To me it's the limitation of the number of points one can own, but it's different to others.

I am reminded of other floating times and points systems. Like Club Intrawest which has no home resort priority so every member in their entire system is fighting for Xmas, and other high demand weeks in Whistler. Or the Maui Marriott where the only have one season so everyone that owns that unit type are fighting for a few prime weeks. That on top of their 13 month priority for multiple weeks makes it where single week owners simply can't get the good stuff. Or Bluegreen which gives higher priority the more points you own. Something like saying DVC owners over 500 points can reserve a month earlier and those over 1000 another month earlier still.
I rented some points from a few other DVC members a couple years back for a family reunion. Back then, member services told me I could only have one set of points moved into my account a year. I had one set moved into my account, and had others make resvs for different parts of my party.
Has this changed? If they went by the old rule, this problem wouldn't exist. People could still own over a 1000 points and rent out, but it would prevent someone from buying up points just for the sake of being a travel agent.It did. It changed at the same time that the holding account points could be booked at 60 days out instead of 30, seems like it was about Aug/Sept of 2000.

CarolMN

12-08-2004, 09:42 AM

IMHO (and FWIW, I've posted this before, but it bears repeating), anyone who uses the DIS Rent/Trade Forum owes this site a debt of gratitude. I find it interesting to note how few of the "DVC landlords" have an avatar that indicates they sponsor the boards.

I am personally amazed that the DIS continues to provide this service for no charge. IMHO, this activity should be relegated to the DIS Auction site and an appropriate fee charged for each transaction. As I recall, this was an announced change a while back, but posters put up such a fuss that the DIS graciously decided to back off.

Seems to me that even those who rent infrequently should be willing to pay a small fee to take advantage of the resources and traffic generated by these boards. Doubt such a move would negatively impact board traffic. And If it drives some of the more objectionable renting activity elsewhere, is that really a loss?

It is true there are other sites to rent points, but I do not think any of them generate the "Disney specific" traffic that this one does, let alone the sense of community that may alleviate some of the anxiety/risk that goes along with renting. I know I'd rent from someone here long before I'd consider renting from ebay or a site I do not visit very often! (But that's a moot point because I don't anticipate being a party to either side of a renting transaction).

Anyway, JMHO. YMMV.