More WDI Gloom [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

DVC-Landbaron

07-20-2001, 12:27 PM

Its funny that you attribute the current economic situation to two men, Eisner and Pressler. Considering most companies are doing the same thing with their work force I don't understand your complaints that this is all because of Walt Disney Company senior management.

Let me see if I can answer this. On the face of it you are quite correct. This is certainly a sign of the times. And Disney does have a fiduciary responsibility to increase shareholder value. Sometimes cuts just have to made!! And from a superficial look I concur with yours and YoHo's assessment that basically says: "That's the way the Mickey shaped cookie crumbles. It's tough all over".

That is until you see where these cuts are made and what this means to the long term future of the corporation and more importantly as an indicator of what the current management philosophy really is. So let's dive in a little deeper than just a superficial assessment.

From the Hill Article: Of course, a significant factor in WDI's prolonged depression is the type of attractions they're currently being asked to ride herd on. When you're capable of turning out masterful, amazing things like "Dragon's Tower" -- the onetime centerpiece attraction for a long-postponed addition to the floundering Animal Kingdom -- but instead are being made to re-theme off-the-shelf amusement park rides such as "Aladdin's Magic Carpets" ... well, you can see why they're demoralized.To me this is highly indicative of their (Ei$ner and Pre$$ler) current thinking. It is the direction for the future of the company. It is also why they have no problem whatsoever cutting (gutting is probably a more apt term) WDI. So all these "big plans" that have inundated the Rumor Board lately, are only smoke and mirrors! If they had any intention at all of creating just half the things on the Captain's recent list, they would be coveting their Imagineers, protecting them, stroking them in any way possible and making sure they are happy enough to NOT jump ship. Especially in these tough economic times. If they made cuts ANYWHERE else in the company other than WDI, it would be indicative of the economic times (which these are as well), and would show their dedication to long range planning, creativity, imagination and the SHOW!! It would show that they still want to be leaders, not followers.

Instead they are showing them the door, box in hand, escorted by security. What does that say for their philosophy regarding future projects? What does that say about their dedication to creativity? What does that say about what kind of SHOW they want to put on? That's what I find --- sad! :(

Is there another way to read it?

ww52

07-20-2001, 12:44 PM

Landbaron - I see your point. I've been through it myself at a company that went through layoffs and eventually "merged" (but was really bought out) by another. The tagline we always used was 'you can't shrink to greatness'. Funny thing is, it eventually looked like the shrinking was intentional to make us an attractive buyout propspect. Could Disney be doing the same thing? Doubtful but who knows?

My point was based on a knee jerk reaction to the layoff numbers that were posted. It just struck me (and maybe YoHo and OnWithTheShow) that so many families are being affected by the economy. I personally felt a bit guilty caring too much if (for example) BK gets built or not.

But as you point out, there is another issue - that being is Disney huritng itself long term? Using one example of the companies listed - I doubt Motorola will ever recapture the market share it had not too long ago. They may be positioning themselves for a merger/buyout - so maybe the layoffs are a good business decision. It is certainly debatable if Disney's layoffs, especially in the creativity departments, are good long term business decisions.

(Another 4+ page thread in making here?)

donald@home

07-20-2001, 12:46 PM

Exactly.

The point of the article isn't that WDI is cutting jobs. That is sad but it isn't the point. The point is that Disney does not see the mistakes they made (and are continuing to make) in not spending the money for a quality park (DCA) and by doing it on the cheap, even with the lack luster performance and less than profitable first few months. They think they did the right thing and TDS is the mistake. How can they learn from their constant mistakes if they don't see them as mistakes? That is so unlike the Disney that I thought I knew. THAT is what is sad about the article.

design geek

07-20-2001, 12:51 PM

DVC-Landbaron -

It's tough to keep your thoughts on the "show" when you have to look over your shoulder for the pink slip.

Faster and Cheaper are symptoms of "fiscal responsibility" - the only opportunity for any "E-ticket" work is a result of OPM - Other People's Money (see Tokyo).

The biggest disappointment is hearing Marty, of all people, sing along to the Pressler/Eisner tune - what has happened to the creative vision / leadership in the company?

DVC-Landbaron

07-20-2001, 01:14 PM

The biggest disappointment is hearing Marty, of all people, sing along to the Pressler/Eisner tune - what has happened to the creative vision /leadership in the company?Yep! That's the way I see it too.

While I find the layoffs in general sad, it is very true that they are going on all over. It is everything else in the article that really depresses me.

And you said it is a symptom. There are some on RADP who have been used that term as well. Too many times we talk about one specific problem or topic and we pick it apart until we all can't stand it!! ;) I'm probably one of the worst offenders.

But that's because for the most part, it is not that particular issue that is the problem. It is only a symptom of the decay and outright disregard the current management philosophy has for creativity, quality and the SHOW. So, even if once in a while they 'fix' a specific issue, the root cause is still there. "The patient has heart disease, cancer, major organ failure and a headache!!" The doctor prescribes two aspirin and proclaims with glee, "At least the headache is gone!!"

AllanJ

07-20-2001, 10:10 PM

When your neighbor is out of work, it is a recession.
When you are out of work, it is a depression.

More Disney tips:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

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3/75 (World Inn* off I4 near DD)
4/85 (Kon-Tiki* on 192)
'80s Disneyland once or twice
7/94 PORiv
9/97 ASMu
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12/98 (Knights Inn on 192)
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Another Voice

07-21-2001, 01:48 AM

Yes, there are a lot of companies that are laying off people right now. But what is going on at WDI has nothing to do with economics. Some people just have a vastly different idea from Walt about what the parks should be.

Imagine, for a few moments, a rumored conversation that may or may not have happened in Burbank recently…

“You know, The Shopping Mall King doesn’t think you need to pay for all those artsy types when you can go out and hire the company that put up those hotels in Vegas. I mean, why keep all those expensive pony tail & earring guys around (boy, do they know how to complain) when you aren’t going to build any of their rides anyway! Do you think The Gap has those kind of people around? Of course not. And if he brings up The Forum Shops in another meeting…

Anyway, if you want to put up a ride, just bid it out and have someone else do it. It’s not like it’s going to happen every year. Do you know how hard it is to get some corporation to fork over big bucks just to slap their name on an amusement park ride? And don’t think that Daddy BigBucks is going to cut his bonus to drop in another E-ticket. He’s still screaming at Strat Partnerships to find someone with a wallet to pay off that tower thing the dorks in Anaheim are whining over. Hell, he’s heading for another coronary because those guys still can’t sell “Soaring” and it’s the only ride that people like in that whole carny sideshow!

And shops and restaurants, well they’re not going to be Disney from now on anyway. Well, maybe some of the shops because we got all that Pooh plush to move – but the restaurants are someone else’s problem. Some clown will buy the whole burger joint operation lock, stock and French fry shooter and all those guys with shows on the Food Network are always angling for the high check crowd. And shops, well really, what’s the difference between Main Street and Disney WestSide? Nothing - that’s what. Besides, the guests are always wanting more brand name merchandise in the parks; did you see the sales per square foot numbers that old Mattel shop used to generate? Yea, let someone else worry about the store’s inventory and new merchandise and that whole maintenance thing. Sell them the space, lay down a few ground rules and gouge them on the rent – the guests won’t care but it will save us some nice coin.

Hotels? Well, that’s the problem. The Wealthy One likes buildings. I mean REALLY likes building. Some psychology or something – I just think it’s because his office looks out at the Dwarves butts all day; but The Midget got his take on it out in the public (good laugh too). But who needs designers here when Mr. Toupee brings by the pet architect of the month for another snob resort? And like those Motel Six buildings really NEED a designer? Gawd, you should see that Hawaiian Village thing they’ve got dreamed up for Katella & Harbor. It looks like something designed when you thought we would win in Vietnam.

Yea, there’s no reason anymore to have designers. But no one can make a decision around here these days. Half the management’s terrified their skin's going to sewn into The Big Golden Parachute (that Ski’s playing the game well, ain’t he? It’s going to be a hell of a book) or are too busy e-mailing resumes to Dreamworks or Warner. No ones cares about saving the ship – just head to the lifeboats and shove aside as many people as you need to get there. Hey, you got any leads on jobs?”

Please gather up all your personal belongings as you exit the company.

AllanJ

07-21-2001, 06:51 AM

>>> some corporation to fork over big bucks just to slap their name on an amusement park ride?

Did Disney pay Aerosmith or did Aerosmith pay Disney to have the Rock and Roll Coaster named? (In other words, is Aerosmith an artist or a sponsor?)

So we are talking about outsourcing, have some other company come in an run a restaurant, have some other company come in and run a gift shop.

At a recent college reunion I noticed for the first time that outside concerns were catering food. I had to ask the manager of the dining hall (which used to cater all re-union events) whether student meals were still being prepared in-house. He "reassured me" that was still true.

I had heard over the years that many colleges have outsourced their food services.

lrodk

07-21-2001, 07:24 AM

So we are talking about outsourcing, have some other company come in an run a restaurant, have some other company come in and run a gift shop.

More and more I come across examples of other companies setting up shop in the form of restaurants at the parks, especially Epcot. here are a couple of examples that I came across on my last trip:

Chefs de France is operated privately by the Bocuse family. They pay Disney a rental fee in exchange.

On my trip this past May I came across a free-standing espresso pavilion stand next to Mexico that just happens to make the best frozen frapuccinos I've ever had. Anyway, when I went to pay using my resort id card they told me that I couldn't use it because the shop was privately owned. I was stunned. I've never encountered a situation where I couldn't use my resort id card anywhere on property, especially at the parks.

I'm also told that the Mcdonalds sites at the parks, while staffed by Disney, will be operated by the parent company.

This seems to be the growing trend. Disney also sold some of it's property recently, for the first time, near the Crossroads area. They are trying their hardest to raise cash in any way possible, and practices like these seem like the easiest fix for them right now.

OnWithTheShow

07-21-2001, 11:30 AM

The thing of it is the ideas that the imagineers had for all those new e-tickets still belong to Disney even when the imagineers leave. They can bring those back at any time. As far as I was made to understand it Rock n Rollercoaster was a joint agreement with neither party paying. I am amazed that the coffee place would not accept your resort ID, I thought that it was required that operating participants accept all the same forms of payment as WDW.

Another Voice

07-21-2001, 12:11 PM

Outsourcing of some aspects of the parks has a long tradition at Disney. Many shops and almost all of the restaurants at Disneyland on opening day were run by outside concerns; and most restaurants in World Showcase are also run by outside vendors. Walt hated the results at Disneyland and bought out every lease he could. However, most of these operations are staffed by Disney employees and most aspects of their design and operation are overseen by the park.

The change is that Disney is ceding this control to lure in more outside companies. It really is a shopping mall model – Disney will lease space to someone who builds their shop or restaurant and runs it as they see fit. Look at ‘Burger Invasion’ at California Adventure – the food is identical to any McDonalds in the country; it uses McDonald’s signage, napkins, costumes, on and on. If it wasn’t for the fact that the prices are doubled you could be standing at the one in your own neighborhood. Same deal with Wolfgang Puck, the wine people, the bread people, the tortilla people, etc. And if Animal Kingdom had been built today, The Rainforest Café would be located on Safari Island, not outside the main gate (“rumor” – they may be moving very soon).

The philosophy was stated as “Mickey stops at the door” – whatever J.C. Penney wants to do inside their stretch of Main Street is really up to them. Of course, Disney would like for them to have a slightly Victorian theme inside, but they’re not going to push it (think shopping in Vegas). And if the companies really want to, they can hire WDI to do some of the design work. If anyone actually works for WDI come October….

It was my understanding that Aerosmith was paid for their ‘Coaster’ appearance, and most definitely for the music. As for rides and plans – no, it doesn’t take that much skill to run a Xerox machine, but if you want something new you need someone with talent. As for “the ideas are left behind” – have you ridden ‘Dueling Dragons’ at Islands of Adventure?

ErikdaRed

07-21-2001, 12:11 PM

If I remember correctly the original shops on Mainstreet when DL open were not run by Disney, but by outside companies, so outsourcing is not new. Also, it meets up with the holy standard of "what would Walt do?"

DVC-Landbaron

07-21-2001, 01:56 PM

ErikdaRed!! Thank you. You have provided me with a reason to use my newly acquired “The Quotable Walt Disney”. I really appreciate it. You said that If I remember correctly the original shops on Mainstreet when DL open were not run by Disney, but by outside companies, so outsourcing is not new. Also, it meets up with the holy standard of "what would Walt do?" So, maybe the question should be, ‘What would Walt want?” And not “What was Walt forced to do when finances wouldn’t allow any other course of action?” And Another Voice is quite right. Walt hated it. And as soon as possible he bought them out or took back control anyway he could.

Which leads to the quote of the day!!! From page 87 “On Business and the Walt Disney Company:The first year {at Disneyland} I leased out the parking concession, brought in the usual security guards – things like that – but soon realized my mistake. I couldn’t have outside help and still get over my idea of hospitality. So now we recruit and train every one of our employees. I tell the security police, for instance, that they are never to consider themselves cops. They are there to help people. The visitors are our guests. It’s like running a fine restaurant. Once you get the policy going, it grows.Certainly doesn’t seem to me to be “what Walt wanted”.

airlarry!

07-21-2001, 08:53 PM

AV, Baron...really enjoyed your takes this time. Well, not enjoy, because it is so excruciating to read press releases like these. Maybe "agreed with" is a better term.

Anyway, isn't it wonderful to read Jim's column the same month as we read Big E's turn recently about "Content is King?"

How do you create new content (and I know I've said this, but movies and animated features are to Disney what R&D is to Cisco or AMGN or Intel) if you are firing all the creative people? You can't outsource creativity. I don't --yet-- own the quotable Disney, but I remember quotes from the Sherman Brothers, something about Walt always had his hand in just about everything. Not doing it himself, maybe something like the bee that pollinates all the flowers?

Where is our bee? And what will we do if the flowers and gardens in WDI have all been cut down and replaced with concrete?

DVC-Landbaron

07-22-2001, 02:33 AM

Airlarry! Thanks for the compliments. And the same back at ya!!! Walt always had his hand in just about everything. Not doing it himself, maybe something like the bee that pollinates all the flowers?And I can’t think of a better thread to offer the following:

From the quotable Walt Disney:
My role? Well you know I was stumped one day when a little boy asked, “Do you draw Mickey Mouse?” I had to admit I do not draw any more. “Then you think up all the jokes and ideas?” “No”, I said, “I don’t do that.” Finally he looked at me and said, “Mr. Disney, just what do you do?” “Well,” I said, “Sometimes I think of myself as a little bee. I go from one area of the studio to another and gather pollen and sort of stimulate everybody. I guess that’s the job I do.”Just one more. I can’t help it!! ;) Of all the things I’ve done, the most vital is coordinating those who work with me and aiming their efforts at a certain goal.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

ztbz

07-22-2001, 09:52 PM

At Downtown Disney (WDW) Disney Closed all of its Food Service Restraunts and sold the Space to the Likes of Mcdonalds, Planet Hollywood, Rain Forest, Wolf Gang etc. All are staff by the Companies that rent the Space, They may even have a Disney Nametag on the Employee but that does not mean that the Employee works for Disney.

Also Rain Forest is also at Disney's Animal Kingdom as well.

:mad:

larworth

07-22-2001, 11:23 PM

Many companies outsource non-core parts of their business. They deem that while these functions might be necessary to run the business, doing them well will not bring them any competitive advantage. The outsourcers do things cheaper, but if they can do your core better than you can what is the economic justification for your existence?

I'll borrow this quote to steer things back to the WDI topic

That is until you see where these cuts are made and what this means to the long term future of the corporation and more importantly as an indicator of what the current management philosophy really is.

Outsourcing, layoffs, I think we have plenty of signals that they no longer believe investment in the parks is good business.

One of the quotes that was a little confusing was the comment about "given the state of the bond markets today"? I always thought the most important determinant of whether something was a good business decision was how customers reacted to it.

Maybe someone who knows Marty can comment. Is this really his belief of how to run WDI or is he just playing the role he is being told to?

Another Voice

07-23-2001, 12:43 AM

Marty's a survivor and really wants to see the opening of DisneySeas in Tokyo. That's all I'll say.

HorizonsFan

07-23-2001, 01:39 AM

“What was Walt forced to do when finances wouldn’t allow any other course of action?”

What was Eisner forced to do when finances wouldn’t allow any other course of action?
I sure don't know the details of WDC's financial situation. Do any of you?

DVC-Landbaron

07-23-2001, 10:05 AM

What was Eisner forced to do when finances wouldn't allow any other course of action? I sure don't know the details of WDC's financial situation. Do any of you?Well, I really don't think you have to know much about it. Unless I'm really missing something here, there seems to be a world of difference between outsourcing parking security or a few vendors and outsourcing the entire WDI division! Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Walt would have done that. Do you?

YoHo

07-23-2001, 11:14 AM

I understand that something insidous is supposedly going on at Disney, I just kind of found it offensive the trite way we are discussing other peoples lives and treating Disney folk as if they have more rights or more needs or are more important then anyone else. Truthfully, I'm simply not surprised at all, When massive layoffs happen, they happen to everyone. IF you really think that any company ever took the time to think about who to layoff as opposed to just slashing, then you don't know much about layoffs. If they are small little one division layoffs, then yeah, they pick and choose, if the whole company is hemmoraging people which it sounds like Disney might be doing, then they just go through the payroll at random. so, I guess while I suspect its something more, history suggests it isn't.

All Aboard

07-23-2001, 11:46 AM

YoHo, I'm going to have to disagree. My company (and parent - a Fortune 500) just completed a very large workforce reduction. It was particularly painful for us. I can attest that we spent an enormous amount of time considering the business impact of every position that was cut. The process was extremely thorough at every stage. Now, we may be the exception, but at least here we did consider everyone individually.

YoHo

07-23-2001, 01:50 PM

Can you really think about it when you slash 30,000 jobs?

From personal expireance, the only thing they may look at is length of employment as in the longer you've been there, the quicker they are to give you the boot.

I've seen where managers have the ability to contradict a higherup's choice, but then they have to choose someone else to let go. The choice of who was being made at a Vice Presidential level. VPs don't know much about individual employees.

DisDuck

07-23-2001, 02:14 PM

Someone mentioned that Disney closed all the Food Service places in Downtown and leased the spaces to entities like McD, Wolfgang, etc.

Question: What food service shops? Prior to the remodeling of Downtown (when it went from Disney Village) the only food service I remember is Empress Lily and maybe some small snack type shops. I rarely visited the village because there was not a place to get much to eat only to shop. Now Downtown (WestEnd & MarketPlace) have many varied eateries. Who cares who owns/runs them as long as the food is good, service is good and price (for a vacation spot) is reasonable (of course, define reasonable when in a resort area, I have yet to find one).

YoHo

07-23-2001, 05:21 PM

Good point DisDuck, I too have been to the Disney Village pre-dtd and as far as I recall, every food place there was run by outside companies from the get-go

DVC-Landbaron

07-24-2001, 11:34 AM

Good point DisDuck, I too have been to the Disney Village pre-dtd and as far as I recall, every food place there was run by outside companies from the get-goI don't think so. I know the Empress Lilly was there. And I'm sure the little snack shop and the lounge/cocktail bar was Disney run. And we were one of the last to eat at Chef Mickey's when it was located in the Market Place, before it moved to the Contemporary.

Now, I never spent too much time there, but quite honestly, I can't think of ANY outside food vendors before Ei$ner took over.

Can anyone else?

*Robin*

07-24-2001, 11:53 AM

Landbaron,
Maybe we should start a fund to collect enough to buy Mr. Eisner the quotes book (Thank you by the way for sharing!)...maybe he thinks Walt Disney is just a myth.

:rolleyes:

DisDuck

07-24-2001, 01:05 PM

Actually, DVC before converted from Village to Downtown there were very few places to eat. Pretty much those I and you mentioned. However, what AV said I believe was that ALL OF THE FOOD SERVICES were converted from Disney to outside vendors.

I believe nothing was converted but when Village expanded to WestEnd and MarketPlace (full Downtown) that all the new eateries were outsourced, and why not. Downtown is more like a shopping district than a park since the shops are outsiders in most cases what is wrong with the food service also being outsourced. Without that there would be no Ghiardelli's. Love their chocolate.

DVC-Landbaron

07-24-2001, 01:58 PM

Now, contrary to popular belief, I hate to do an over abundance of quotes, but I really don't know how to handle this, except conversationally.
Actually, DVC before converted from Village to Downtown there were very few places to eat. Actually, DVC before converted from Village to Downtown there were very few places to eat. I agree, Dis. In fact other than the ones we mentioned I can't think of any! However, what AV said I believe was that ALL OF THE FOOD SERVICES were converted from Disney to outside vendors.Yes, but when? WHEN??!! That's the important question! Pre or post Ei$ner. In other words, was it during the "Golden Age" (to be read as Homer Simpson saying 'donuts') "Ahhhh, golden age of Disney...." or was it after the cannibalization of the Walt philosophy began?
Downtown is more like a shopping district than a park since the shops are outsiders in most casesYes. How sad. :(
Without that there would be no Ghiardelli's. Love their chocolate.Yeah! Like every other city in the country!!! Not much unique about it, is there?

;) ;) ;)

PS: Robin says: Maybe we should start a fund to collect enough to buy Mr. Eisner the quotes book (Thank you by the way for sharing!)...maybe he thinks Walt Disney is just a myth.Well. There's three things wrong with your statement.

First using Mr. implies too much respect, and you misspelled his name.
Proper spelling: E - I - $ (very important) - N - E - R! Ei$ner! Ok?

Next, maybe it's just me, but I find it really difficult to hold a tag day for someone who received ¾ of a billion dollars!!

And finally, I'm not sure he can read!!! ;)

*Robin*

07-24-2001, 02:40 PM

Well yea, there is that, if you want to get TECHNICAL !

hehehe... :)

YoHo

07-24-2001, 04:46 PM

"Ahhhh, golden age of Disney...."

Aw Jeez, Could you at least say the Golden age of WDW?

I comment on this every time you say that. For someone who uses Walt's picture, you'd think you'd let him be alive during the Golden age of his company. You know, When the Theme Parks, Animation (in general Captain), Live action and TV were all firng on all cylinders? You know?

Why do you insist on calling the medicore (for the company in general) 70's the golden age?

jeez, why don't you bring a chalkboard to my office and run your fingernails down it :)

On Topic, When was the Fireworks Factory put in? That was outsourced. It was also around before the proliforation of Brewery/resturants that serve the same type of food. So it was marginally unique.

DVC-Landbaron

07-24-2001, 04:51 PM

Aw Jeez, Could you at least say the Golden age of WDW?I stand corrected!!

The GOLDEN AGE of WDW!!!!!

Ahhh! That is better!!!

Thanks

;)

DisDuck

07-25-2001, 09:13 AM

DVC, the whole point was NOTHING WAS CONVERTED. The existing restaurants in the old Village were closed during the remodeling to Downtown. So, Eisner did not replace Walt's Village. The replacement of Village with Downtown in my view brought more magic. The children play areas, the lego sculptures, etc.

Not everything is part of the Magic nor should it be. I love strolling thru WestEnd and the MarketPlace. It has a nicer feel then you local indoor or strip mall.

I have honestly reached the point where Eisner could be the worst CEO since Attila and I will still love Disney and continue to enjoy my personal magic/show when I am at the world. I remember the whole Village/Hotel Plaza area of the 70's. It had ZERO APPEAL. I evened stayed twice at the old Dutch Inn (I think now the Groversnor) so I speak from experience. Downtown (even without PI) and the associated Hotel Plaza is way better than the old (which some consider to be the golden age of WDW).

Those of you who wish to continue fault finding, continue and have fun. It just gets tiresome after awhile. Case in point, someone on another thread decried the selling of 'land' at the Crossroads area. Duh, Crossroads is a typical shopping center built by others on Disney owned land (the land is leased). Disney has decided to remove itself from this venture by selling the land underneath the mall. I completely agree what does a SHOPPING CENTER have to do with WDW, where is the synergy? Yet someone complains that this move is typical of Disney 'not getting it' and losing its way. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Another Voice

07-25-2001, 12:42 PM

Actually, the Shopping Center at Crossroads was a Disney created, developed and managed project. It was the company’s attempt to “maximize their return” on that bizarre little spot of land after efforts to acquire the adjoining plots were stopped. Had some of the additional land been purchased, that area was supposed to be a joint Disney-Marriott time-share development.

The Disney Village Marketplace started life for two reasons. First, it was supposed to be an upscale dining and retail place for local residents to drop some cash at Disney. It was also supposed to be the town center for the vacation home development that evolved into The Disney Village Resort (which mutated into The Disney Institute before that concept underwent a mercy killing). The Marketplace had always been kept at an arm’s length from the rest of WDW to maintain its more upscale resort, less touristy feel. The thought was that not every visitor wanted 100% Mouse, 100% of the time.

I do have one question though. There have been a lot of threads about how WDW is an escape from reality, how its more “magical” than the everyday world. How do ripping out the unique shops and restaurants that used to inhabit The Village, and replacing them with chain stores and restaurants found in malls throughout the country enhance “the magic”. To me, the place is nothing but a tourist development overwrought with neon McDonald’s signs, more places shoving Pooh merchandise out the door, and all to the background soundtrack of “Myers, safari of four – your table’s ready”.

In any case, thanks the changes at WDI we will won't be seeing the likes of the Village or of Pleasure Island again. I just hope people enjoy the magic when the parks start to look just like the West Side and the golden arches overlook the fountain at Epcot.

DisDuck

07-25-2001, 12:48 PM

AV most of your posts have been very enlightening and sometimes entertaining but in some ways you are like DVC, your view of magic is the only view. I like Downtown better now than when it was the Village. You liked the quaint shops and stuff, I don't so it had little attraction to me and I have only been to the Village 2 (maybe 3) times before it disappeared. Now I go to Downtown on every trip.

Why are my views of magic wrong and your's right? Since I consider magic to be subjective, we are both right.

DVC-Landbaron

07-25-2001, 04:19 PM

How do ripping out the unique shops and restaurants that used to inhabit The Village, and replacing them with chain stores and restaurants found in malls throughout the country enhance "the magic".I couldn't agree more!! I know that Mr. Duck doesn't necessarily either understand what we're talking about or it doesn't matter to him. And I respect his opinion. But I don't understand it for a second. And I really do try.

However, I look at Downtown Disney and see the Woodfield Mall or Old Orchard (for those familiar with the Chicagoland area). Or pick any modern mega-mall in the country. The one in Minneapolis is supposed to be even better. But what does that have to do with Disney?!?! I can get a Rainforest anywhere. I can only get a Chef Mickey's at Disney!! That's special! I can get a Fulton's (or the like) many other places in the country. I could only get an Empress Lilly's at Disney (I might add, the only place that used to feature Donald Duck at a character's breakfast). That's what made it distinct! That's what made it unique! That's what made it Disney!!

Dis, don't they have a shopping mall like that in Wayne, NJ? Or at least nearby? I see very little difference between the malls I'm talking about and Downtown Disney. And when I visit Disney, I want to see a difference. That's the appeal. That's why I go there!!

Don't you see, that an old astro-burger from the old Tomorrowland Terrace could be the worst tasting thing in the world, but I'd still prefer that to a McDonalds? Just because it was a one of a kind! You had to be in WDW to get it! McDonalds can be had at any off-ramp on the interstate and every four blocks in the city! Why would I want that in WDW!?!? Now, I might support the argument that they should improve the taste of the astro-burger, but I can't agree they should replace it with a Big-Mac!! That's the easy way out. That's the un-Disney way out!!

So, I would support your not caring for the Market Place as it stood. And I would further support that Disney should have found the maximum appeal for their guests. But (and here's where we differ) But, not at the expense of originality and uniqueness! Two vital element of the SHOW! They took the easy way out. Again. They copied what works in other cities to maximize profits. And in doing so diminished the SHOW!! I would rather have NOTHING there, than a bland, everyday, parochial shopping mall that offers nothing unique and everything the same as Everywhere USA!!

So, you're not wrong. Not at all!! You just let them off the hook, way too easy!!

YoHo

07-25-2001, 06:17 PM

, I look at Downtown Disney and see the Woodfield Mall or Old Orchard (for those familiar with the Chicagoland area).

I agree that this is the feeling I get at DTD, However, there are some mitigating factors.

1: You like Myself are spoiled, you even made assertions that you could have that expireance anywhere, at any mall in the country. Absolutly False. Rain Forest Cafe did put up too many locations (Why WDW needs two is still confusing to me) across the US, But we in Chicago are spoiled with our 3 (soon to be 2 as the Downtown one Does a fraction of the buisness Woodfield and Gurnee Mills) Game Works is not everywhere. Woodfield Mall is the Second Largest Mall in the US and Has the most retail space of Any Mall in the US. (Mall of America uses a lot of its space for rides) To suggest that its shopping expirence is similar to anwhere else in the country is rather foolish.

Old Orchard and Oak brook are less Unique, but they also have less of what we're talking about.

Face it, Living in Chicago gives us little right to declare the norm for the country as there are only about 8 Million of us spread about the 7-8 counties that Chicagoland consists of.

2: Disney did it first or near first. Woodfield's (and Schaumburg in general) current state is an extremely recent thing.
3:Its something people want. Not that that is an excuse for Disney to do it, but The shopping expireance that DTD provides is a big Draw otherwise there would be no Mall of America and Vegas would still be Gambling and Strip Clubs exclusivly.

4: even some of the unique shops that remain such as the Christmas store and such are rather mundane for a worldly Chicagoan. I could take a 6 hour trip to Door County Wisconsin and see all sorts of quaint stores including many Christmas stores and spend a lot less doing it. And unlike the above, a lot more people have access to this type of place on a yearly basis.

So, I understand your objections, but I suspect your opinions are clouded by your good fortune in living in the great city of Chicago.

Another Voice

07-25-2001, 07:38 PM

A couple of quick comments –

Mr. Duck – I really dislike the term “magic” because it is so very subjective. And I never claimed to have the only “correct” opinion, or even that I liked to old Village. In most ways, lunch in the old Village was like spending a weekend playing bridge with friends of grandparents. But it was different from what the rest of WDW and Orlando offered at the time. It was sometimes, just sometimes, pleasant enough to sit down at a place that tried to be a real restaurant and not a themed building that happened to serve food.

I find it interesting that some people have found making a place less Disney has somehow enhanced it’s “Disney magic”. I still find the Downtown development interesting – just like I enjoy the seven or eight similar developments within an hour’s drive of my home. Take away the name and move it off property and I wonder what the reaction would be like (oops, they did and called it CityWalk.)

I also think there’s a big difference between “unique” and “rare”. Yes, I will readily admit that I live and work in a part of the country that’s spoiled rotten beyond belief. But to me, unique still means it’s one-of-a-kind, not that it’s more than a six hour drive. I looked to WDW to provide me with experiences that I couldn’t get anywhere else. And to me, a shopping mall anchored by a Virgin Megastore and Wolfgang Puck just lacks….okay, I’ll say it –

The place lacks imagination.

That’s what Walt Disney Imagineering could bring to a project like Pleasure Island and what Disney Development Corp. didn’t bring into Downtown Disney. Nothing in the Downtown redevelopment work even attempted to be as truly unique as The Adventurer’s Club or even as creative as the old Fireworks Factory. Okay, yea, the backstory to P.I. was much too complicated and most of it’s been trashed now – but the place tried to be different, truly one-of-a-kind. And while there were some failures along with the success, I’d rather see WDW try to create rather than just collect rent from tenants.

Without WDI, we may be facing a future where WDW is dominated by the ideas from McDonald’s, The Gap, Nike, Starbucks – and not ideas from Disney.

Missin' Walt

07-25-2001, 08:11 PM

A parable:

The apartment complex parking lot was being broken into on a regular basis and the residents' cars were being damaged. At the annual budget meeting the committee voted to hire a security guard for the parking lot. Within 30 days there was no more damage to the cars and everyone was happy. At the following year's annual budget meeting, an ambitious committee member - his name was Paul something or other - figured out a way to save a few dollars in the budget. "Let's fire the security guard in the parking lot - after all no one's car ever gets damaged there"!

DVC-Landbaron

07-25-2001, 08:38 PM

Missin' Walt!!! Let me be the first to welcome you!! There may be those who disagree, and it is a little early to tell for sure, but I think you may border on the genius!! What a parable!!! It fits perfectly! :bounce:

Hmmm. Registered in October. Only five posts. First one on the Rumor & News Board!! And what a post! Keep it up, Mr. Walt. Keep it up!!!

:D :D :D :D

JeffH

07-25-2001, 09:22 PM

..."replacing them with chain stores and restaurants found in malls throughout the country..."
In my part of the country, we've never seen the likes of ANY of the 'chain' stores at Downtown Disney (except McDonalds, which I agree shouldn't take up room inside WDW, except selling fries), so Downtown Disney is a very magical place for us.
The quality theatres,
Planet Hollywood (an amazing experience),
Ghiardelli's ice cream shop,
The giant World of Disney,
The Rainforest Cafe,
and quaint little shops (the Christmas shop, the learning shop...)
the little boat ride between the East and West sides
and we haven't even yet experienced Lanuba or DisneyQuest

WDW has NEVER been better...this is the Golden Age of WDW, so much to do and so little time to do it.

DVC-Landbaron

07-26-2001, 02:09 AM

In my part of the country, we've never seen the likes of ANY of the 'chain' stores at Downtown DisneyJeeze Jeff. You gotta get out more. Maybe set your sites on New York or Chicago for a vacation instead of WDW all the time. These things are all over the place!!

WDW has NEVER been better...this is the Golden Age of WDW, so much to do and so little time to do it.I disagree!!

Baileymouse

07-26-2001, 01:37 PM

I live very close to NYC and my family goes in all the time (it's a quick PATH ride) so we are used to the Downtown Disney-type stuff. HOWEVER the two people in my family who clamor to go to DD the most are my 15 yo son and my 58 yo Mom. The son loves DD - the lights, the stores, the movie theaters, everything! He likes the glitz, he likes the hugeness of it. He loves PH and he loves Disney Quest. For him, going to a place like DD is magical. I've asked him why he likes it since he's in Manhattan so much and he says he just does.

Mom prefers the village stores like the bookstore, the Gourmet Pantry and the little clothing boutiques. She prefers that side. Both of them hate WOD. (Interestingly enough Mom likes City Walk)

I think it's demographics. In NYC you used to have lovely shops in SoHo that were unique, now there's a Gap and a Starbucks on every corner. As far as the kid is concerned, that's fine. It looks like they are marketing mostly to teens and twenty-somethings with mega disposable income. For someone who is 15 that is magical.

JeffH

07-26-2001, 02:11 PM

I thought the world ended at Orlando (except for a small trail leading to/from Gatlinburg and the Great Smoky Mountains).
I heard that if we venture beyond the great Orlando that if we didn't get swallowed up by a sink hole we'd meet up with Godzilla:eek:
And if we strayed from the small trail to the GSM we'd get eaten by gators or worse yet swindled by landbarons;)

DVC-Landbaron

07-26-2001, 04:41 PM

And if we strayed from the small trail to the GSM we'd get eaten by gators or worse yet swindled by landbarons
:crazy: :wave: :tongue: :jester: :tongue: :wave: :crazy:

I tried to think of a cleaver witticism to follow this. BUT I COULDN'T!! Very good JeffH!!!

:crazy: :wave: :tongue: :jester: :tongue: :wave: :crazy:

JeffH

07-26-2001, 04:48 PM

I just took the Disney personality test and I rated a Cinderella...
http://disney.go.com/vacations/websites/100yom/secret/flash.html
secret password Walt

DVC-Landbaron

07-26-2001, 05:02 PM

Thanks Jeff!!

I just took it too!

Jiminy Cricket for me!!!

:bounce:

airlarry!

07-26-2001, 05:24 PM

Uh. Me, too. But Tinker Bell? Hmm....not what I expected. :(

Anyway, the test was fun.

Laurajean1014

07-26-2001, 06:55 PM

Yuck! I nearly got sick over the "hype" created here!

Most posters are excited about the "100 year celebration," and can't wait to go back two or three times a year!!!!!?????!!!!!

WHO CREATED THAT?

lrodk

07-26-2001, 07:34 PM

I rated an "Aladdin". Go figure.

*Robin*

07-26-2001, 08:16 PM

I'm Jiminy Cricket too...but I knew I would be... :D

DisDuck

07-27-2001, 10:42 AM

Took the test came out as Aladdin, hum?

By the way DVC, in Northern NJ are some of the largest Malls but none of them have a Dragon in the Water or sand-box to play in, etc. Yes, I miss the Empress Lilly but still love the DD more than the Village. In fact, RainForest at DD is somewhat unique as being outdoors instead of indoors (at a mall) its themeing is so much better.

pigtail

07-27-2001, 11:10 AM

A wise man once said " all decision's make sense when viewed from the proper perpective". When speaking of layoffs and sad times and poor planning... one must realize that the people making these decisions are compensated based on short term goals. Disney has been riding the same wave of prosperity that has had the country in it's grips for a while now. All of a sudden the bubble bursts, reality sets in, and Disney has to cut costs as a method to try and stabilize their stock price. Disney is one of the most cash rich companies in the USA, however it is also one of the most debt laden companies around. From Mr Eisner's perspective, what makes more sense.... heavy cuts in high dollar salaries and wages (not to mention benefits) or building more parks and increasing the perks given to "guests" to insure future visits? One directly rewards him, the other benfits long range planning at the expense of short term gain. If you or I were in charge (and it remained strictly a business proposition instead of a passion), more than likely we would choose to increase our pockets with gobs of cash and leave the worryring about 10 years down the road to some other poor guy. For just once, use your "imagination", pretend you are the big greedy mouse after the big cheese and how would you proceed? When you think of it in these terms, everything Eisner does makes sense (from his perspective). Just my $.02
:(