With this my 1000th post, I've had a revelation. Johare, you'll want to read this.

[All Aboard]

I figured I would use my 1000th post for something significant. In the past few weeks, my primary discussions have been about 1) whether or not WDW has lost it's Magic, 2) what the proper next steps would be for Disney and its theme parks (especially WDW) and 3) whether or not IOA/USF is a worthy opponent to WDW's Central Florida dominance.

Well, this past weekend I decided to sample IOA for the first time. Yes, my discussions on this Board prompted me to pack up the car on Friday night and make the 3.5 hour trek up to O-town. We stayed at the All Star Sports Resort (some things never change.) On Saturday morning, we headed over to IOA. I figured that at a minimum we would return in the future, so I opted for reasonably priced annual passes.

Believe me, I went in with the "white glove" ready to collect evidence that IOA was just another amusement park ala Six Flags. We parked in the very nice parking garage and with the aid of moving sidewalks, we made it to City Walk in pretty short order. City Walk seems like a great place, very colorful and vibrant, and what a scheme having all day guests funnel through it on arrival and departure.

As soon as we got to the IOA ticket booths, I started thinking hmmm... nicer than I expected. Each turnstile had an employee working it (v. 1 CM per every 4 turnstiles at a WDW park.) that made for very quick moving lines as problems could be addressed immediately. Port of Entry makes for a great transition into the park, very well done.

First stop, Suess Landing. First thought, better than Mickey's Toontown Fair, that's for sure. The Caro-Suess-el was marvelous. Natalie wanted to ride it over and over, each time picking a different character. The Cat in the Hat had the same impact for Nat, we cirled it quite a few times. Versus WDW's latest kiddie dark ride (Pooh) I have to give the Cat the nod. 1F2FRFBF is, of course, a Dumbo/Aladdin/Triceratops spinner. The song that tells you how to avoid getting wet is neat, but I think the woman is trying to decieve you with the second instruction. The colors selected for Suess Landing are going to have trouble holding up in the Florida sun, much maintenance will be required. The shops and eateries in the Landing all are themed perfectly. It's all symmetry to the bitter end. Nothing is out of place, it's a very singular theme.

Next, we headed over the bridge to Marvel. Again, very tightly themed. The city street winding through is great. The small "storefront" type entrance to the Daily Bugle is great. Universal does this well (Terminator is another good example.) The Hulk really fits the theme, and it doesn't bother me that it's all visible. It winds around the whole "land", it works well. Stormforce is the teacups with a solid dose of steroids and Natalie enjoyed it more than the 'cups. But of course the centerpiece to Marvel (and for that matter, IOA) is Spiderman. Holy Smokes, what an attraction! In our two days, we did Spidey 6 times. If Dinosaur was WDW's attempt at an immersive, thrilling, motion vehicle dark attraction, well they fell flat on their face in comparison. I won't say anymore other than Spiderman is the single most incredible attraction I've ever experienced. Dr. Doom's Fearfall is the least attractive element of the park. But, it's somewhat themed and at the back edge of the land, so it's not too intrusive.

Next was Toon Lagoon. Nat is too small Ripsaw Falls or Bilge Rat Barges, so we could only watch. The drop on Ripsaw seems higher and faster than Splash, but it would be tough to beat the interior of Splash. Barges look longer and steeper than Kali, but again I didn't experience so I can't really comment. Me Ship the Olive is fabulous. Couldn't help but to compare it to Donald's Boat. Again, big advantage to IOA. The Comic Lane section is yet another example of great IOA theming. I kept thinking over and over about how you move from one fully themed area to the next, the transitions are complete, nothing grey - you are clearly out of one and into the other.

Jurassic Park was next. You are immediately dropped into dense and immersive theming. The foliage is great, and I love the entrance arch - just like in the movie. Nat is too small for the River Adventure so all I can say is that man, it puts out a splash! (and looks like it might be pretty cool as well.) Pteradon Flyers is a queue engineer's worst nightmare. While standing in the non-moving line I did some math. 6 birds, two people per, total cycle time 120 seconds from load bird one to reload bird one. That's 180 guests per hour!!! Fun (but extremely short) ride, though. Nat loved the play area around it. Great theme to the restaurant in this area as well.

On to Lost Continent. Dueling Dragons looks great, and is mostly out of view - which is very nice. 8th Voyage of Sinbad - one bad joke after another and very bad acting, once is enough. Nat flat out loved the Flying Unicorn, it's faster and higher than Goofy's Barnstormer. The gem of The Lost Continent is Poseidon's Fury. What a unique concept. The guide made it great - just a fantastic actor. I won't give it away to those who haven't experienced it, but man was it good. And the exterior architecture is phenomenal.

Overall, I give the park super high marks. The architecture and theming were flat out amazing. The uniqueness of attractions like Spidey and Poseidon were unmatched. The characters were great, the employees were great, the cleanliness was great (except for the restrooms on a couple of occasions.)

Johare, I owe you a monster sized apology big guy. I spoke of what I did not know. IOA is every bit worthy of all the praise it can get. It is one mean theme park.

BTW, we also hit USF - better than I remember, super solid park, you get the idea.

So I returned with mixed feelings. On one hand, I was happy that we had another great destination. On the other, I began to think that perhaps I was looking through some rather rosey glasses. I defend WDW pretty hard as it is the place that brings my daughter the most joy (well, one of the places now.) But, no doubt, I think WDW's latest offerings pale in comparison to what I experienced this weekend. The magic hads't faded, but I have a new perspective now. Of course I love WDW and will continue to go again and again and again. The Magic is very strong and (at it's core) unmatched. But, I've seen something now that makes me wonder if WDW can keep up. Mission:Space is going to be a big proving ground, and Disney better not let us down.

As I read other posts about the failing quality of Future World and think really hard about the closed attractions, the fumbling of Journey, the lost opportunity with Pooh, I think I am starting to see a little more clearly. Perhaps the money that needs to be going into WDW theme parks isn't. And it needs to be. Is this enough to put me in car #2? Not yet, but I've got the door unlocked.

[DVC-Landbaron]

... to the 1,000 mark!!

Is this enough to put me in car #2? Not yet, but I've got the door unlocked.

Hmmm. Sounds, from your post, as though you and I could trade off driving chores in car #3!! From what you say, it sounds like me talking. More sad, and a little disappointed, than mad!

You sure you haven't switched cars already??!!!

[*Robin*]

:confused: after reading this...though I never thought I would say it...I think I'm going to have to check out IOA next time we go down....(feb 2002)

Thank you guys...I think...;):confused:

[disneycub]

I wasn't too excited about taking time away from Disney to go to IOA during my last trip. But using the excuse that I wanted to see what the competition was up to, I went ahead.

I was truly amazed with IOA. The one thing that impressed me the most was the queue for the Dueling Dragons coasters. I felt totally immersed once inside the castle (as well as a bit claustrophobic). It rivals the Indy queue in DL, perhaps not so much in art direction, but in mood and feel. It wouldn't surprise me if an ex-Imagineer designed it.

I remember saying to my traveling companion at the end of the day, "Universal has out-Disneyed Disney." But looking back, I was wrong. Disney still has the magic.

[johare]

gcurling,

Thanks for the post. I'm glad that you and your daughter took the time to see IOA. I hope when you return you will be able to experience some of the attractions that you missed. Ripsaw falls is a great ride and the drop is incredible, however as you suspected the theming inside does not compare with Splash. They have some cute scenes and effects, but the overall theming at atmosphere in Spash can't be beat. Popeye on the other hand is an order of magnitude better than Kali in all respects. You really need to give it a try. Also, even if the BIG coasters aren't your thing, you should take a walk thru the queue for Duelling Dragons. It's probably the best themed (and longest!) queue I've ever seen! The Jurassic Park ride is fun too, though not one of my favorites. The dino's inside the show building look really good, but most of the ones outside look pretty fake.

As for WDW...I don't really dislike Disney, but I've been disappointed with what's going on there lately. Epcot is the only park that we really miss going to. I hope that Space turns out to be a great 'Disney' attraction and that they do something worthwhile with JIYI. Then if they would just start offering an 'After 4' pass again... :)

thedscoop,

Sorry, but I don't consider IOA to be just a "ride" park. The theming there equals or exceeds anything I can find at Disney. As for the feeling you get leaving the park...well, I guess everyone walks away with their own impressions and feelings. Is leaving the MK any more special when you have to wait 30 minutes in a herd of people for a monorail, followed by a 20 minute wait for a parking lot tram? I've been in situations like that that made me wish I was back in the 'real world'! :)

[DisDuck]

I have been to IOA twice and USF 5-6 times and I have to agree more with 'thedscoop' then with 'gcurling'. I am not a coaster rider so there is a lot at IOA I just don't do. It does feel more like a 'ride' park than a 'theme' park. Sinbad is the only real 'live' show and it is BAD. Poseidon's Fury was nice but last November saw something almost the same (Greek myths) at Caeser's Forum Shops in Las Vegas.

gcurling - Splash Mountain is much better than Dudley's. Bluto's barge was good maybe a little better than Kali but not themed as well as Kali.

I do have one big complaint. It is a long walk from parking to turnstiles. Seems much longer than any WDW park. And while CityWalk is nice there is just too much of it in one place. When leaving I don't know which place to pick so we just left.

Making a return trip next year while at WDW will depend on the other member's of our group. I will probably vote for BG as haven't been there in about 5 years.

[johare]

thedscoop,

I guess our different perspectives might come from the fact that I live in the Orlando area (about 30 minutes from Universal). Except for a couple days this summer when we stayed at the Hard Rock Hotel, when I leave a park I get in my car and go home which means I'm returning to the real world a lot sooner than someone staying onsite. I like being able to get to my car on my own. Even if it is a long walk, to me it's better than having to wait for a monorail, followed by another wait for a parking lot tram. Also, as a Florida resident, I appreciate covered parking. To me the sight of a covered parking garage is a small price to pay to get into a car with an interior which has not been heated to over 200 degrees!

btw: When we stayed at the HRH we barely knew the real world existed until we left 3 days later. We went to both parks and visited citywalk a couple times and never had to rely on a bus to get where we were going.

[All Aboard]

Scoop, I do agree with you about the "world" concept, and we know given UO's location that it is impossible for UO to match that. So, from that magic perspective, UO really suffers. I don't know for sure, but I bet back in the late 80's when Universal Studios was being built, they might not have anticipated what they have today.

WDW, overall, still ranks as the single greatest place in the world to be and I don't see that changing. I think there are at least a couple of car #3 passengers (and the driver) that will say the same thing.

But, most of my comparison was confined specifically to IOA. It is one fantastic park. Right now, it is more of a ride park and I think it does need a couple of good shows. They have a nice big arena for one, but right now there is an xtreme sports show going on there. We saw it, they bikers/skaters were good, but we wouldn't go back to see it again. Live entertainment is certainly one area where WDW is lightyears ahead in my book.

As to parking structures... If WDW announced that they were building a giant parking structure in the back of their property, to which monorails would connect to all parks - and it would serve as the single TTC - and they ripped out all of the parking lots - I would like that idea. That would be a true transporation center. Yes, I realize that the garage at UO doesn't work that way. But, I give them pretty good marks for making the best of the property. I've never been to DL/DCA, but from what I have read, isn't the setup virtually the same?

[johare]

IOA could use a couple more live shows. The Xtreme Xventure show was good, but like you said...it's not something you would go back and see more than once. The rest of the year that building is empty and it bothers me every time I walk by it that they can't come up with something to put in there. The Sinbad show is good and (imho) a little better than the Indiana Jones show over at the studios. During the holidays the Grinchmas show they do in Suess Landing is really good and one of the better holiday shows I've seen.

How many parks really have more than one or two live shows though?

At MK I can't really think of any.

At Epcot there are many small live shows, but no real real round major productions.

At AK they have the Lion King show which we thought was great and the Tarzan show which is ok...barely.

Disney Studios seems to be the jackpot for live shows. They have the Little Mermaid, Indiana Jones, Muppet Vision (not really live, but good), Doug Live, WWTBAM, Sounds Dangerous, Hunchback, Beauty and the Beast, Bear in the Big Blue House and last, but definately not least, Fantasmic. Wow! That's going to be tough to beat!

In comparision, Universal Studios fares a little better than IOA for live shows, but still doesn't touch Disney Studios. They have Beetlejuice, Wild West Stunt Show, Nickelodeon, T23D, Gory Grotesque Horror Show and Barney's Backyard. They also have some pretty decent street shows like the Blues Brothers.

I like your idea about one major parking/transportation center at WDW, but you'd have to be really careful with avoiding bottlenecks. Can you imagine the wait for a monorail if something like that wasn't planned, or more importantly budgeted properly?

[Another Voice]

This whole “world” thing is nothing more than personal preference. Having grown up as a day visitor to smack-in-the-middle-of-suburbia Disneyland, and without the luxury of week-long vacations, both Disneyland and Islands of Adventure work for me. First, I like the bit about walking under the train station – moving from the real world into the themed world in dramatic fashion. That’s what I miss at WDW: there’s no sense of transition anywhere. Second, it’s much more of an accomplishment to make you feel you’re in an old West town when the park’s in the middle of a city, verses how easy it is when the park’s stuck in the middle of no where. But it’s all just personal taste.

Back to the main topic – gcurling I’m glad you enjoyed your visit. The only thing that separates IOA from the Disney parks is the brand name, and far too many people use that as a crutch when forming their own opinions. Most of IOA was designed by ex-Disney staffers or by contractors that also create Disney parks. In fact, the ‘Dragons’ coaster is pretty much identical as what was supposed to go into the beloved Beastly Kingdom. Individuals design the parks and they can work for any company that will give them the chance to create. For a long, long time that was Disney. But Islands proves that these same people can do just as good of work elsewhere – just as Disney is currently showing what happens when you don’t let people do good work at all.

And my friend thedscoop – massive staked-layer concrete parking garages, the “real world” of electrical lines and cheesy motels visible inside the parks, forced marches through a crowded shopping district, huddled houses just across the street (so close the coasters have to have sound barriers) – when did you visit Disney’s California Adventure? If you hate Universal because of how they handled their situation, one trip out here and you’ll become a bigger Eisner-basher than I am!

[larworth]

gcurling

You are right that while many of us are not in car #1, there is no doubt if given only one choice WDW wins hands down. However, I'm thrilled (pardon the pun) to have IOA/US to spend part of my week there. I'm glad to have more options and variety. Kind of like AK. It may be only a 1/2 park for my family, but it is a 1/2 day better than being at home.

IOA is often referenced just to counter the perception that Disney has no peer in building world class theme parks. A high percentage of IOA (IMO) could be placed into a Disney park and there would be no loss of show, and in many cases it would be greatly improved. I think the decisions Disney has made to weaken WDI, and try to squeak by are the wrong business decisions. Even thedscoop acknowledges their once huge imagineering gap is now much smaller.

It is still unclear if IOA was the right business move, but I think it would have been a bigger mistake if they have tried to out-do Disney in the show and kiddie front. This would have been a harder audience to lure away and a cheaper front for Disney to defend. They identified a soft spot with the consumer and went after it with a gusto.

It would be really interesting to see their original business plan. I doubt it had Disney failing to pick up the white glove they threw down. That they knew this would require Disney to spend $$ they weren't interested in doing. Did they really expect that as one rumor contributor recently stated it would still be another 5 years before Disney might respond with rides that would "blow them away"?

I find it interesting that the biggest distinguishing factors thedscoop cited between the two experiences in the sense of isolation at WDW. Not something Disney has done recently, but something that someone many years ago I guess gets credit for.

[Captain Crook]

to gcurling for a fine unbiased reporting of his feelings.

As usual I tend to agree with Scoop's ideas's surrounding what WDW offers compared to what UO is able to offer and having never been to DL either, DCA is moot. But for me, the "feeling" of isolation, emersion in fantasy and relative safety of WDW is a huge part of the show.

I do think it's great that UO built IOA and that many people feel it's a world class park. For you gcurling it just adds options to your many days in Orlando, and that's a good thing. But still as far as the future is concerned where, realistically can UO go? No room, smack dab on International Drive. It seems they're pretty much built out already so once Disney gets back on track (assuming they get back on track) the competetion level we may be seeing now will flaten back out. It's easy to imagine. What if Disney builds BK, adds Indy & another show (replacing Indy) at MGM, a new country & revamped Living Seas at Epcot & something (anything) in the 20,000 leagues lagoon at MK. These things aren't that far fetched and what could UO do in response? This seems like a fair question to ask, doesn't it?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[YoHo]

So, I have a question, and Having never been to IOA, I don't know the true answer, I can only refer to what I've read.

DOes UO have any attractions besides Dueling Dragons of any kind that aren't based on a Specific Universal owned property or License?

For instance, MK has PotC, HM, Time Keeper, Space Mountain, BTMRR, All of Epcot, most of AK, (MGM is an obvious and unavoidable example.)

I know Universal Studios doesn't, because I've been to Universal Studio's Hollywood. And I'd Forgive that the same way I would forgive The studios. Its merely the nature of the Theme, but Why with the Exception of Dueling Dragons Does Universal seemed so focused on this? And is it just me, or does that kind of bother you from a Theme perspective?
Now I've never been there, so I can't really judge, but to me, pushing synergy at every step of the way isn't magical, its all too ordinary and everyday life. (with notable exception to The studios again, as long as your using true classics, not the latest ABC drivel)

I'm just curious if anybodies thought about it, and whether they even care?

[johare]

MGM is an obvious and unavoidable example

Which would be the case for a studio based park like Universal also. As for IOA, The 8th Voyage of Sinbad, Flying Unicorn, Poseidon's Fury, Tricapterops Encounter and Pterandodon Flyers are not based on any licenses as far as I know. Storm Force is very loosly based on a Marvel license.

As for MGM, Tower of Terror though based on the Twilight Zone seems like it would be an exeption to the 'license' rule. Not sure how to categorize The Great Movie Ride.

[All Aboard]

But YoHo,

That didn't bother me in the slightest. Those are some pretty classic themes chosen by Universal for IOA. And, to boot, they pulled them off very well. I think the Sunday Comics, Marvel Super Heroes and Suess (as themes) have and will continue to survive the test of time. I don't think they will get stale. In addition to these, Jurassic Park may prove to be a neo-classic.

The Lost Continent is IOA's opportunity to use non-licensed theming and create a mythical land about tales and (uh-oh, am I beginning to describe BK??)

I thought the theming was flat-out fantastic.

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. I've stayed out of things for a few days now. There seemed to be an overabundance of "Rumor" threads and I don't usually like to rain on anyone's parade. So, I stay away. I prefer the news portion of the board or very realistic rumors, not the run of the mill, 'pie-in-the-sky' type that have proliferated this board in recent days.

I've kept my mouth shut (for the most part) and lurked, but I can't keep my tongue from wagging any longer!! Captain, if you were throwing out bait, congratulations!! You've hooked a Landbaron. If, on the other hand, you truly believed what you wrote, we are in for quite a discussion!!

First, just a word or two for thedscoop:

I'm beginning to understand your concept of the WDW experience. And I have to admit that it is EXACTLY like mine. It is why I like it so much. Once I'm on the grounds, I DON'T BUDGE!! But it seems to me that this concept grew out of Walt's concept of the SHOW! And keeping out the 'real world'.

When faced with this problem in Anaheim, Walt built the infamous 'berm'. He did what he had to do in order to preserve his concept of the show. Was it perfect? Well, as perfect as possible. I would venture to say that ANYTHING built in WDW would fall within this 'berm' by accident alone!! But where they do have to be careful, are they? Well, no!! I haven't seen it myself, but from what I hear, you can see the 'real world' from the new AKL!! What's that about?!?!

And really it begs the question, what is the current management philosophy regarding this concept. Is it important to them? Do they consider it a vital component to the SHOW? As clearly, you do. As clearly, Walt did. How can we tell in WDW? We can't. Seems we have to look elsewhere for the current management philosophy applied. Hey Another Voice!! You've been to DCA. The place built within the concepts of the current management philosophy. Tell us. Does it keep out the 'real world'?
Folks, WDW's growth strategy is real simple. Find markets that others do well and then try to do it better. The water parks, the mini-golf, the dining, the shopping at DD and BW, the "timeshare" DVC, wide world of sports, the zoo park (AK was a response to Busch Gardens), etc.All well and good. But…. I remember a time when Disney used to be proactive, not reactive. When they were the innovators, not the imitators. When they were the leaders, not the followers!


Captain!!!
For you gcurling it just adds options to your many days in Orlando, and that's a good thing.Isn't it a shame that Disney has not created an experience that would keep gcurling from going? Isn't it too bad that they have allowed the competition to snatch him away, if only for a day or two, instead of keeping him firmly within the confines of that all-encompassing world you like so much?

so once Disney gets back on track (assuming they get back on track) That IS the question, isn't it? And for me, it's quite a leap of faith!!
the competition level we may be seeing now will flatten back out. Huh? How will the competition level flatten, just because Disney gets its act together? I don't get the concept. Please explain.
What if Disney builds BK, adds Indy & another show (replacing Indy) at MGM, a new country & revamped Living Seas at Epcot & something (anything) in the 20,000 leagues lagoon at MK.WOW!!! BILLIONS!! SIX!! Count 'em folks!! SIX major projects!! That's quite a "what if" list. Personally I'd be surprised to see them any one of them, but hey, I only have past performance to go on.

What I would like to know is, what in the world leads you to the conclusion that ANY of things will be done, let alone, all of them?
These things aren't that far fetched and what could UO do in response?I think they would become, as I, slack-jawed!!!
This seems like a fair question to ask, doesn't it?No! It doesn't seem fair at all!!

[YoHo]

I haven't seen it myself, but from what I hear, you can see the 'real world' from the new AKL!! What's that about?!?!


Now, I wasn't there, but from the pictures I've seen, in 1955, you could see the real World beyond the berm, because the berm hadn't grown out yet, so Personally, I'll give AKL Some time.
Also, The Berm misses the point. Walt was livid at what happened to Anahiem after Disneyland was built. the Berm simply wasn't enough. Finally, I think the point was that according to thedscoop (haven't been there, don't have an opinion) IOA is just like Disneyland in that the nasty reality based City encroaches on it.


As to my question about ride themes. I was under the impression that all of the Dinosaur themed rides were Jurassic park based. That would appear to be incorrect. Having never been there, I just assumed such based on the facts I had.

[Captain Crook]

Some points you misunderstand, some you just don't get...What Will I do? What will I do?;) ...Well, I do know that in a few weeks we'll get the rare opportunity to once again talk to the Disney satisfied Landbaron - until that cynical Chicago-stuck mind overpowers the joyus, happy Landbaron once again!

First off, with my quote For you gcurling that just adds options...And that's a good thing. This was just a congratulations to my friend who now has someplace new that has captured his attention and caused excitement? Is this bad? Certainly Greg himself would have probably preferred to have been disappointed so he could be happy in his familiar WDW, but he wasn't and that's not bad. He has somewhere to time-share until Disney wins him back fulltime...

Now, as for the competetion comment, this is easy. You can't believe for a moment that once Disney is back on track, with the acres & acres of developable property still available that a small two park location like UO will be able to compete can you? Logistics alone tell you that Disney could smother them whenever they choose and that time will come or Disney will fold.

As for the SIX billion dollar additions...Come on. The Indy ride is already developed so the expensive part is done. A new show to replace Indy is inexpensive. At Epcot, the new country will be sponsored. I admit the Living Seas upgrade may cost a lot. On to MK. I personally don't much care what they do with the lagoon, just do somehing. I think another wet ride would fit the bill. Now AK, rumors have been circulating for some time that this BK development isn't "if" but "when." I choose to be optimistic here...So sue me!

So be prepared to become "Slack-Jawed Landbaron" in the near future...Them big announcements are just around the corner!;)
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[johare]

You can't believe for a moment that once Disney is back on track, with the acres & acres of developable property still available that a small two park location like UO will be able to compete can you? Logistics alone tell you that Disney could smother them whenever they choose and that time will come or Disney will fold.

Common sense should tell you that there is no way that Disney could smother Universal whenever they chose. I don't know what you know about logistics or what it takes to run a company like Disney, but it's far from that simple. Perhaps someone needs to explain to you how attendance is down at Disney or how attendance at AK has not met expectations or how adding more parks just takes customers from your existing parks. :crazy:

[Another Voice]

“…having never been to DL either, DCA is moot”

So what – all those threads about don’t judge the magic unless you talk about Hilton Head and Broadway and etc.? Does that apply only to the far side of the Mississippi? Hey guys, how about some acknowledgement of “the place where the magic began”!

I spent a week at the Portifino and had exactly the same kind of “inclusive” feeling as on the WDW properties. I never saw International Drive or anything touristy. It’s just a matter of design – Universal had its challenges and accommodated them well while Disney had the luxury of building a DMZ around their kingdom. Different means to the same end. Universal even had a water taxi between the hotel and the parks (something that WDW won’t have after October 1, btw). And I didn’t have to wait twenty minutes in the left turn lane while hacking up the diesel fumes of the dozen Disney busses lined up in front of me. To me, WDW outside of the turnstiles is just another real world mess – traffic and all. Disney even offer me a McDonald’s drive-through (now that’s magic).

Finally, this whole issue is really beside the point. The important fact is the Universal parks are comparable to the Disney parks. They are going after different markets so there are important differences. More thrills, fewer singing hydraulically-activated dolls. Many people are looking for that. Since Universal bought the old Lockheed plant, the rumored master plan has plenty of room – another theme park, expansion of IOA, several more hotels and a couple of golf courses. Whether Vivendi will commit is another question, the same question that people are asking about Disney.

As for the supposed “big announcements”, I’m still waiting for the bulldozers to start up for all those Disney Decade plans!

[Captain Crook]

I posted an improper comment on an otherwise interesting thread and I apologize & have deleted it...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[johare]

....but not before I read it! :D

[Captain Crook]

And I apologize to you, too.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Now, I wasn't there, but from the pictures I've seen, in 1955, you could see the real World beyond the berm, because the berm hadn't grown out yet, so Personally, I'll give AKL Some time.So will I. But it might not matter, and that’s the point. YoHo, you missed it! There’s a reason I left the question of AKL up in the air. That’s not the real issue. It’s a question of philosophy. Does the current management care about the concept? Do they even notice? There’s no way to tell in WDW. Unless you REALLY screw up, everything is within the ‘world’! It seems like such a given that we ALL agree that it should be there. Even the LandBaron and thedscoop agree 100%. So, how do you know if they want the same concept? How do you know if they even care? Simple! You look at what they did in their most recent outing, that didn’t have the luxury of size. And DCA comes immediately to mind! Not too good is it? Looks like they don’t care after all. How sad.

Well, I do know that in a few weeks we'll get the rare opportunity to once again talk to the Disney satisfied Landbaron - until that cynical Chicago-stuck mind overpowers the joyous, happy Landbaron once again! Captain. You’re wrong almost all the time - - - but I like your style!!! ;)
This was just a congratulations to my friend who now has someplace new that has captured his attention and caused excitement? Is this bad?No!! For Greg it’s great. For me it’s great!! For you it’s great!!

For Disney, it STINKS!!! I really do think they’ve dropped the ball. They’ve let Universal/IOA catch up with them (hell, pass them up in some cases)!! And they should have never let it get this far!!
He has somewhere to time-share until Disney wins him back fulltime... Not if. Not hoping it does. But “until”. Straight foreword. To the point. No doubt about it. Man those are some ‘rosy’ glasses you’ve got there!!!! And you know the funniest part. It’s so natural. You didn’t say it to get a rise. You didn’t say it to be contrary. You REALLY believe it!! I find that… amazing. Here, look. You do it again. Notice how it just flows. No hesitation. No question as to its inevitability. Just fact: You can't believe for a moment that once Disney is back on track, with the acres & acres of developable property still available that…”once Disney is back on track” Beautiful!! So assured. So confidant!! Captain, you’re the best!!! You’re wrong of course, but you’re the best.
As for the SIX billion dollar additions...Sorry. It was probably the way I wrote it. Let me try again.

Six!!! That’s right Six!! Count ‘em folks!! Six projects!! It’ll cost Billions!!! I’d be surprised if they did even one…. Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, does that make more sense. That’s what I meant, but it was really getting late at work and…

So be prepared to become "Slack-Jawed Landbaron" in the near future...Them big announcements are just around the corner!Man!! How positive can you get!!! Whether you agree with him or not, you have to admire his enthusiasm.

I’d like to leave you all with wonderful quote from AV: Finally, this whole issue is really beside the point. The important fact is the Universal parks are comparable to the Disney parks.And they shouldn’t be. And from the looks of the management philosophy applied to the newer parks, it ain’t getting’ any better, folks!! And that’s a shame!!

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ps: Boy I wish I would have seen the Captain's post. I was busy defending him at the time.

[All Aboard]

A couple of additional examples of the World beginning to abut the world:

From the third floor of the Woody and Buzz buildings, you can see the cars whizzing by on 192.

From the looks of it, from the 4th floor of the Pop Century building that will be closest to Osceola Parkway, you will have a nice clear view of I-4.

Of course, in these two cases, the visible 192 & I-4 sections are passing through Disney property.

[Captain Crook]

...Oh, see now...I was just kidding! From every pile of steaming dung must rise a stench...Which somehow brings me to Landbarons latest woeful & pessimistic offering. - That is a joke so I expect to hear laughter...

First AKL & the outside view. It is very minimal, it seems a great distance and it will be eliminated with time. Great care was taken to protect the view, but this particular circumstance would have involved huge landscaping undertakings for a very small payback...I know Walt wouldn't have stood for it, but his status is still frozen so this is what we got.

For Disney it stinks, I really think they dropped the ball Sound the horns!!! So do I. There was never a reason to let UO in the door, but (and I know this will come back to haunt me) they looked at the financials only, realized UO wasn't having a big impact and got fat & lazy (I admit it, this was a huge error. They should have continued with their original plans - maybe eased off the time table, but continued nonetheless) - Landbaron is stunned!

But, I do believe Disney will get back on track...What else is there? Failure? Mike doesn't want to be known as the guy who ended Disney he wants to be known as the guy who grew Disney and saved it ... Twice. His ego doesn't want failure, golden parachute or not. Also the corporate entity doesn't want failure and as its golden goose loses its luster (now) they will shortly realize that (now) is the time to get back in the saddle and break that wild horse once and for all (huh?)...

So, I don't see UO as a serious threat to Disney, I see Disney as a serious threat to Disney. But again, looking a future potential Disney still has lots of room for growth WHEN they get back on track, UO can't grow much even if they want to...Which brings me to my final point, Vivendi doesn't want to finance the US theme parks, in fact as recent as the last quarter there was still talk that the Parks were still for sale (that doesn't bode well for their job security, either).

Optimistc? Heck yes, if I ever lose that you won't see me around here and I know how that would break hearts...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[Another Voice]

Perhaps I should have been clearer, but I do believe the Universal Parks are comparable to the three Eisner-era parks (Studio Tours, Animal Kingdom, California Adventure). Certainly no one could spend a full week just on Universal’s property like one can spend at WDW (my week stay was on business – you get nice perks for using Universal’s production facilities, btw). But Universal’s problem is the size of their property. Universal and Disney are trying for two different goals and I think both have achieved them to a large extent. Universal is an urban garden, Disney is the ranch.

Not everyone wants complete isolation from civilization, nor does everyone want to spend a full week in the middle of an amusement zone. Universal and Disney are competing for different customers, and I like the variety. It’s even possible to like a particular theme park just on its own merits without judging it for its surrounding acreage. Walt seemed to do okay by the public with his little dinky spread.

As for my thoughts on employers – past, present or future… As they say in show business, it’s a new audience every night and you have to win them over again each time that curtain goes up. I keep coming back to my favorite theater because of what they did in the past, but their current acts are really lousy. Yet I still have hope every time I see the curtain starts to move.