How much is it to expand the monorail to mgm, AK, and the rest of the deluxes????

[carterman_12]

I think it would be great to expand the monorail to have a boardwalk stop, which would accomadate YC, BC, S&D, BWI, then have a MGM stop, and a AK/AKL loop. Why wouldnt they do something like this? How expensive is it?

[YoHo]

At minimum, its about 1 million a mile, although I've heard higher figures.


And that's just for track, your looking at close to a couple hundred million when you include route preperation, stations and new cars.

[wdwguide]

About $20 million a mile is the latest estimate I have heard, although it seems a little on the low side, considering the the Monorail Society estimates the Las Vegas monorail, which uses the same track and trains, at $68 million a mile. I have no idea what the "real number" is, but chances are that prices will come down now that everyone and their grandmother is considering monorails (Las Vegas, Seattle, Branson, central Florida, etc), and many companies who manufacture them, including Imtamin and Bombardier, are starting to actively market them.

[mrgoofy]

I have heard the same estimates, ranging from $1 million up to $70 million per mile. While that is a huge upfront cost, I'm sure that Monorails are cheaper to run an maintain than a huge fleet of busses. BTW How many broken down WDW busses have you seen on property? I personally have seen a lot, and have spoken with bus drivers who said it is a continually happening. On my most recent trip, I saw the scene where a bus ran into a guests car. I don't know the circumstances around the incident, but I'm sure that Disney forked over a lot of money to keep the guests from suing them.

Now... How many times have you seen a broken down Monorail? Sure I've been on a few that get stuck when the power goes out, but we are moving again in a few minutes. And I have never seen a car hit by a monorail.:D

The Busses take up space on the congested WDW roads. And I know many people who rent cars to drive around property just so they don't have to wait for a bus. More monorails would help relieve both of these problems.

While the upfront cost may be prohibitive, it seems that a monorail system would be cheaper in the long run.

[Amor4Pooh]

This is my first post on this board, but I would like to add my opinion.
With as much traffic as the buses cause, and the amount of time it takes for guests to take the buses to " park hop" , monorails to each park would actually be a better "spending of the guests time". When we are on vacation, our time is our money, as we have paid to be there for a certain amount of it. Increased monorails would improve that time, and I am sure they would be much more environmentally sound. I am sure the monorails are much better for the environment in terms of emissions, and would be the fastest way to travel around the resort.
Does anyone know how many buses there actually are in the WDW Fleet anyway(running at any given time)?

[Jackie H.]

OK. I am not an engineer or anything, but what could possibly cost $70 million per mile?!?! I understand it would be very expensive, but $70 million per mile? :confused:

[wdwguide]

The ground has to be cleared and stabilized, the beams manufactured, shipped, and installed, new trains have to be ordered, stations built, etc. The $70 million figure includes these factors.

[YoHo]

I personally think $70 Mil is ludicrous. $20 mil I might believe.
Remember its just rebar concrete. its not some spaceage material.

The problems are clearing the route to get the construction in. The pedistals need to be sunk fairly deep down to accomidate the relativly Swampy Wetland conditions present.
Everything's prefrabed, so it actually isn't as expensive as it might be. Road crossings aren't anything special since no bridges are used.

I think the florida monorail is slightly more expensive then the Disneyland one, because the electrical guide has some more protection against the elements (rain) then the California one does.

[YoHo]

I agree, it shouldn't intrude on the show of these place, BUT The assumption of the original poster was that the Epcot line would be extended. This I feel is impractical. I also suspect that putting ANY other resorts on any monorail loop is impractical. What would more then likely happen is that there would be an entirely new loop created that goes from AK, through MGM and on to some new Central Station, more then likely attached to Epcot.

Why is this different?

Well simple, who says a monorail has to look all futureistic like the current one do?
At the Very least, you could silk screen MGM or AK style Graphics and while it would still be slightly intrusive, it would fit reasonably.

More importantly, Why assume that any new spurs would circle into the park the way the EPcot line does. That would cost mroe anyway for minimum benefit. Trust me, ypou could do this right, while giving riders a small glimps of the Park to come without intruding on that Park's Show. And it could cost less.

[wdwguide]

I agree with the "bad show" aspect of a monorail going through, say, the Wilderness Lodge.
The two most feasible tracks are the following:

Loop 3: Epcot - Epcot Resorts (1 common stop) - Disney-MGM Studios - Blizzard Beach - Animal Kingdom - Epcot (running parallel to World Drive and Osceola Parkway. Possible additions could include the Coronado Springs and a stop for the All Stars, and should the Olympics come to Florida, WWoS).

Loop 4: Epcot - Old Key West - Downtown Disney - Typhoon Lagoon - Epcot (running near Bonnet Creek and Epcot Drive)

[YoHo]

Loop 3 makes sense, and loop 4 will never happen.
More then likely you would see some form of light rail between DTD, its resorts, and Epcot.

Certainly Epcot is the most centralized location to build a main TTC. The real question is which resorts would get a stop. You say one centralized stop, but which resaorts are central?


After Careful study of the map, I suspect the most efficent route would be to loop around Epcot, then stop at MGM, then head to AK.

So, You turn Epcot Station into a New TTC, send the monorail east, loop around epcot along Epcot Center Drive.
Pull into the MGM Station. Then Head West to AK. At animal kingdom, the Trains go through A Sharp loop, or switch (whichever is most effiicent) unloaded and pull back into the AK station. They then HEad back parallel to the track they came in on with a stop at MGM and finally back at Epcot/TTC2.

The MK/Epcot Line would be modified as follows. The outer loop of the MK line that goes from TTC to MK would be broken and spliced in to the Epcot line. Then the trains would run, MK/TTC/EPCOT/TTC2/TTC/MK.

Finally, FW and WL would Either Keep its bus service, or get light rail to the TTC. where guests can board trains to where they need to go.

BoardWalk/YC/BC would get a Trolley type Light rail that would fit into the Theme to the Studios Stop (according to the map, that seems more reasonable)

The DTD/PI resorts would also get a Centralized Lightrail to the EPCOT/TTC2 stop.

Coronado SPrings and Caribbean Beach would seem to be best served heading towards MGM, but I would probably leave it all as bus service at this time.


Obviously, Bus service would remain for the Waterparks and from all resorts to DTD.


This scheme would probably reduce the number of busses by at least 50% and possibly 75% which would reduce both the upkeep costs and the costs of hiring so many drivers.

[MickeyAndFriends]

about the monorail connecting to all the different resorts and theme parks in the walt disney world complex over in Orlando, Florida. I was speaking to a Disney World Bus Driver... Who was driving us from the Yacht and Beach Club over to the Wilderness Lodge villas for our appointment with Disney Vacation Club we went to the earliest one and the bus was generally empty besides for me my children my husband and another family from England. so we asked him what they were going to do about the monorail that we heard alot of good things about. and he had told us that theyre was a problem in running the monorail and they dont think that they can do it anymore. Because It would have to go through the Reedy Creek Swamp/Preserve. And when they asked to get it through they tested and theres some kind of bug that they cannot go through there with the monorail so they would have to go around it a few miles or wait until the US government allows them to build on top of the land. and he said it would be both pricey and a little bit longer of a ride to do it that way but i dont know how ever way they do it i hope they do it fast. I dont know but the other family said that they didnt really trust the intergrity of the man i did because he sounded sincer about it but anyway i hope that they do build one kind of monorail because buses at times take way too long.

[AllanJ]

I am a rail fanatic, not a bus fanatic but I have to admit that except for the labor cost for bus drivers, bus transit is very efficient for Disney.

If not to provide the ambience of a futuristic novelty, a monorail extension's only raison d'etre is to provide a trunk line from the north (MK/TTC) to the south (new TTC II about where Buena Vista Drive crosses the main trunk north south freeway a.k.a. World Drive). The advantage is that one train driver would haul hundreds of people across that great divide. At TTC II, buses would take guests to the south side resorts (AS's, CB, BC, etc.). MGM could not be the only south end monorail station because having people change to resort buses there would put too many people into that limited space which has only one exit (Buena Vista @ Boardwalk) that has to share a traffic light four ways.

I say there should be something, anything, other than an automobile clogged road (i.e. Buena Vista Drive) to whisk Disney Transport vehicles of some, any, description from Downtown Disney to some other, any other, less congested place (e.g. TTC II above) where convenient transfer to resort buses can be made. Saying it in transportation engineers' jargon, "there should be some alternative for Downtown Disney travelers besides buses operating in mixed traffic" ,which does not rule out buses on a private right of way.

However, when you factor in the time taken to transfer from monorail to resort bus, whether at Epcot or a separate TTC II, the total trip time probably won't be less than under the current bus only system.

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[melissaga]

Just a few comments to add to this thread. I am another one of those that has always wished for more widespread monorail coverage at WDW. My earliest visits were in the 70's with stays the Contempory and the Poly before there were so many other hotels, so it always seemed natural to me that monorail service should be at a Disney hotel.

Anyway, the Dolphin and the Swan pre-date the Yacht Club/Beach Club/Boardwalk complex, don't they? Or at least the Dolphin and Swan were done around the same time as the Beach and Yacht Club. (This all happened during the "dark" years between 1983 and 1992 when I didn't have any WDW visits, just DL). I only bring this up b/c they were originally designed to have the monorail go right through, so there was at one time in the past the thought (or more than just a thought) of bringing the monorail out that way. That would have easily paved the way to making MGM monorail accessible. If only....

My other comment is about the comment from one poster to the effect of "have you ever seen a broken down monorail?" Ummm.. I guessing you have not spent any time at the airport in Newark, NJ lately! LOL! Within the past few years, monorails were installed to go between the parking lots and the terminals at Newark. Those of us who use that airport have seen many failures of the monorail cars and system there! The whole system has already been shut down for renovation and it is less than 5 yrs old. Of course, at the same time, they continue to work on the expansion of the system there, so at least that has some promise.

[toefungus]

http://64.194.228.37/wdwresmap.jpg

I thought this would be a good idea. The red line will be the new monorail line. It will have to be a faster and bigger monorail to move people faster and more efficently. The red line will run from the TTC, to Disney-MGM Studios, Cornado Springs Resort, then AK and back to the TTC. The green lines link all the resorts. It will be just like the Tommrowland Transit Authority system but bigger and faster. What do you think about this plan?

[skeezixspud]

...would seem do-able. WL is a lovely resort w/ great restaurants, but it's very difficult to get to from the MK or the other resorts. The boats don't handle enough traffic for the size of the place. A walking path to the monorail with a WL stop would be very useful, I think, even though it would not be right in the hotel; look how popular the BW/MGM footpath is.

[Snowgod]

How about a train from the TTC to DTD with stops at WL, FW, PO, OKW and DI along the way. Would fit the theme of these resorts better and keep with Walt's love. High speed gondolas (like those in Teluride, CO and Killington, VT) could connect resort like BW, BC and S&D together like a modern version of the old Sky Rides. And how about an enviromental transportation systen. A modern network of Bycicle and walking paths, connecting all resorts with Secure bike parking and rental of solar ellectric scooters and trikes, designed for these trails.:smooth: :earseek: :wave: :sunny: :rolleyes: :D :cool: :tongue:


PS. If you add another monorail line, it should connect AK to the MGM and DTD areas. Some connection to the existing monorail could easily be added to this route.

[JeffH]

As YoHo suggested, we have to find a way to integrate the existing monorail system into any new system. The Epcot line itself must be spliced into and extended to MGM and AK.
I see the following being the most useful and efficient:
Main line stops/stations (connecting the parks):
TTC (using existing looping end)
Epcot Main entrance (station would have to be extended to serve the inward run as well)
---existing loop through FW would be cut into two lines
Epcot International Gateway (comes in real low)
MGM
Blizzard Beach
AK
Each station would provide 2 stops for the monorail line in each direction (except the ends)
The AK station would be placed on the East end of the entrance so not to distract from AK as much as possible.
Also since track cost so much, and a loop would distract from AK, I think a switching system would be best...a monorail enters the station on one line and while it loads/unloads, the switch allows it to depart on the opposite line.

But for this to be of any practical use, the resorts have to have direct access to the monorail line.
Buses would then only run between the resort and the nearest monorail station. This would significantly reduce the bus traffic (only 1 bus route to each hotel instead of 7). And even after eliminating over half of the busses, there would still be plenty left to provide FREQUENT/SHORT service between the resorts and the nearest monorail station.
Yes, now resort guests would have to transfer to get to most parks, but considering how monorails actually add to the magic and then would force guests to arrive at a park via monorail (as the Magic Kingdom was designed). And FREQUENT/SHORT bus connections would be more like a comfortable 'tram' ride.

The All-Star resorts would be bussed to the Blizzard Beach station (or AK).
The AKL and Coronado would be bussed to the Animal Kingdom station.
The Boardwalk area doesn't need a monorail loop, since it could be very well served by boats (to the International Gateway station)
Caribean Resort and Pop Culture would be bussed to the MGM station.
...and so on.
Downtown Disney would be bussed to the Epcot station (and possibly MGM as well). This could also promote more business at DD as well.
I feel that this would be the most effective route to monorail next, with stations at Typhoon Lagoon and Downtown Disney.
Late at night (closing), there could be a line of busses direct to each resort (to simplify their return to their resort).

[TSI_Fan]

I'm looking at the map I have here beside me. I wouldn't go so far to make the EPCOT monorail station a central station, but to change the location of the central station. I don't know the name of it, but there is an intersection of 2 highways, one leads on to MK, the other leads off to EPCOT. The monorail runs parallel to the MK road and crosses over the EPCOT road. Why not put a main central station in that area? In that location, you can add an AK-MGM loop, plus have bus service from there to the water parks, resorts, and Downtown Disney. Then like at the original TTC, you can have walkways connecting the AK-MGM monorail to the MK-EPCOT monorail.

[ztbz]

Many of you guys are Dreaming.

First of All, Expanding the Monorails will Cost Billions Not Millions, Here why.

1. you need to build Many Miles of Monorail Track.

2. you will need to Replace Existing Monorail Track on the Epcot Loop, Mk Loop, Resort Mk Loop. These Loops are at the End of their Useful Life Expectance

3. Next needed is More Monorail Trains There are 12 trains now, more will be Needed for the other Loops. Also the Current trains may have to be replaced too.

4. Also Needed is an Energy Plant to Power the Monorail System. There are currently two Plants at Disney that provide the Power not only to the Monorail but also the Parks themselves.

Also for those that Stay at Disney's Cheap Resorts (I.E. All Stars, Pop Centry) Don't Expect Monorail service for the Low price that Disney Charges to stay at these Resorts if a Monorail is Added you can expect the price of staying there to be about the same as staying at the Poly or Contempory Resorts.

Now if there is a Change in Disney (Unlikey anytime soon) Managment such as Eisner & Company Leaving then you might see a Monorail Expansion of some sort, Disney's Transpotation Leaders have already devoloped a Master plan for Transportation around Disney World. This plan has been Not Approved by Burbank, CA and won't be unless Eisner goes. What could happen if approved was to expand the Epcot Loop to the Disney/MGM Studios and another new Loop would be built at Disney/MGM that would go East and West of the Studio, East would go to Downtown Disney and Stop at the Water park Typhoon Lagoon maybe the Carabean beach resort, West would go to Disney's Animal Kingdom plus the Lodge and stop at Bizzard Beach as well. Buses would still be use but would bring guest to the Monorail stations, for instance Guest staying at All star would take a Bus to Disney Animal Kingdom and get on the Monorail to the Theme park they wanted to go too.

Also many you folks may not llike the Buses, but at least as far as getting to/from the Theme Park goes, you can get there Directly by bus. If a Monorail is Built say like the above plan and you are a guest staying at the All Stars and you want to go to the Magic Kingdom just think of How Many Tranfers to various Monorails would be require to get to the Magic Kindom from the All Stars by the Monorail plan listed above.



:confused:

[AllanJ]

A bus that loads up at one stop (a park) and discharges at just a few stops (All Star Sports, Music, Movies) is an extremely efficient mode of transportation, limited only by the size of the bus and the cost of the driver.

Reducing the number of buses leaving MK would need a direct monorail line from MK (not TTC) to South Disney (BB or MGM or a new separate TTC II) that did not stop at TTC. Otherwise mixed non-resort guests getting on/off at TTC and resort guests to/from South Disney would slow things down.

Did I hear a rumor somewhere that during the most crowded times when parks turned away people, that people were disappointed to find out that only Animal Kingdom and perhaps MGM were available? Perhaps when busing some resorts (All Star, CS) only to AK to catch the monorail, more guests will say "what the heck" and spend the day at AK rather than take the monorail to Epcot or MK and risk being turned away.

[YoHo]

Toefungus, Thanks for posting the map, That is the map I used when Designing my route.


Just a few scattered comments, since its a monday and I haven't had enough coffee to be truely coherent.

Yes, the four-way traffic light at the entrance to MGM is problematic, but the trick is to reduce day visitor traffic to that parkinglot. Which is also why you keep TTC2 in the Epcot lot.

If you look at the map, you'll notice that they only parking area that rivals Epcot's for size is the DTD parking area. Epcot is the biggest lot and there is potential to expand even further (again, I don't have a mental picture of what is really around there besides trees, but if Disney wanted to Bulldoze it, they could.

Your goal in this whole plan is to funnel say 80% of all non-resort traffic to either TTC or TTC2(Epcot) You might even expand the TTC parking area to cover this. The reason for this? You want to encourage use of the monorail by all guests. (which is also why you don't put stops to resorts on it.) If done right, guest traffic into the studios lot will drop dramatically. Now obviously, this is mainly an advantage to guests who plan to park hop. Then of course you have to do something at the intersection, but that could simply be a matter of creating a special bus lane as they do by the TTC.By putting in the mono-line and possibly light rail extensions to certain resorts, you'd actually reduce bus traffic into the Studios and AK lots since you would no longer have a bus running to the TTC or the other Parks. Lets see, from AK, thats TTC,MK,Studios,Epcot 4 busses, 4 major busses completely removed. plus reduced numbers on the others.

As to comments about the current track already meeting its useful life, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from the changes to accomidate DCA and DTD, the DisneyLAND monorail still runs on its original track. Further, the Epcot line is significantly newer then the MK tracks. Granted Florida is rougher on the concrete then California.
As for power needs, I suspect they would need to add another plant, on the other hand, that may be within the plan for other reasons anyway. AND the costs of purchasing new monorails is lower since Disney is not the only customer anymore.



Further, the system could easily provide its own revenue. I'll go out on a limb and say that current park hopper and LOS passes include an actual charge for transportation, even if they do, raise the price by $10, TELL YOUR GUESTS WHY (to fund the improved transportation) Give them the option not to if it is a sore point. And charge $0.50 to Day pass holders every time they try to get on (ie put ticket readers in).

[AllanJ]

Most of the non-resort traffic already funnels to TTC and Epcot, and Epcot is indeed the overflow lot for MK (TTC).

A TTC2 at Epcot won't snare the people coming up from 192 going to MGM since MGM comes first. So we won't reduce evening exiting traffic hitting the 4 way light on Buena Vista.

The TTC2 needs to be well south of Epcot and serve as a bus hub as well, so the bus mileage going to south end resorts will be meaningfully reduced.

Note that if TTC2 is put at Epcot, then all the MK folks going to the wouth end resorts e.g. ALl Star, will be coming off the monorail there and the bus station there has to handle both MK and Epcot guests. Same for a TTC2 directly at MGM.

[beattyfamily]

FYI...

While I was at WDW this past December I overheard a WDW suit talking to a family that was walking in front of me.

I was walking with my 2 DD's to MK from the Contemporary early in the morning and they were asking him what he does and he said he's in charge of the Monorail and buses and making sure it all goes smoothly. He also said he'd been doing this job for several year.

Anyway, I heard him say that they will expand the monorail but it would take several years. He also said that EPCOT would be the central location, meaning from EPCOT you could get to MGM and AK, so for example, if you are at MK, you'd have to go to EPCOT to get to MGM or AK.

Basically, he was saying that the monorail was expanding and EPCOT would be the central location.

I thought this was very interesting and I know it's just a rumor but here's where you post rumors right?

:)

[YoHo]

AllenJ, yes Guests headed for south side resorts would be making either a train change, or possibly a change to the bus at Epcot, And that would equal Long bus mileage. Bus mileage isn't my concern. Traffic congestion and funneling people most efficently is. IT would be inconvienent to make a monorail change at epcot and a change to lightrail/Bus at the studios, but would it be faster?

I suppose this would validate making it one contiguous line as some have suggested. thus only one train/bus change no matter where you are going.

The 192 traffic could be alieviated by making an overpass at the intersection and allowing Day Pass only to enter the parkinglot forcing all hopper pass holders to either TTC or TTC2. This has some added advantages in that you can reduce your lot size which gives you more room for the Train Station and even, Dare I say it, Park expansion.



the trick is to reduce traffic into AK and the Studios lots, reduce the lot sizes and make bus route easy and direct. Thus south side resorts feed into the studios Parking area.

This could easily become massive urban transportation planning The key is the amount of unused Space Disney has and deciding where to funnel people. The only problem I have with moving TTC further south is that it forces you to either buy up high priced land, or do massive development. By using Epcot as your parking ub, you have a large preexisting and centralized parking area. which can quickly feed everywhere.