Another bogus lawsuit for disney!!!!!

[Bob O]

Muslim sues over Disney's dress code
Her civil-rights suit claims the company fired her because of her religious head scarf.
By Henry Pierson Curtis
Sentinel Staff Writer

May 22, 2004

Wearing a hijab has meant not being able to work at Walt Disney World, according to a former employee who claims she lost her job because she refused to remove her Muslim head scarf.

Aicha Baha's civil-rights suit, served this week on Disney, may be the first-ever challenge of the employee dress code at the Central Florida attraction.

"To stop you from working for practicing your religion doesn't seem right to me," the Morocco-born Kissimmee resident said Friday. "There is a family here that is almost out on the street because of Disney."

The hijab is a head scarf that some Muslim women choose to wear as a sign of modesty. Disney policy prohibits the wearing of anything but Disney-issued hats and visors.

"We don't discriminate," Disney spokeswoman Veronica Clemons said, saying exceptions to the dress code for religious reasons are made on a case-by-case basis. "We do have cast members who have attire significant to their religions."

Disney policy prohibits discussion of lawsuits, she said.

Any form of discrimination over religious beliefs is prohibited by the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission requires employers to accommodate workers' religious beliefs, "unless doing so would impose an undue hardship."

Undue hardship is not defined.

Baha, 32, worked at Walt Disney World from 1997 until mid-August 2002 and wore uniforms, referred to as "costumes," in her jobs as a bellhop and a sales clerk at Disney's Caribbean Beach Resort, according to interviews and the lawsuit she filed last week in federal court in Orlando.

She did not wear the hijab during that time.

But when she took maternity leave in 2002, her faith grew and she decided to wear the hijab when she returned to work in August.

"It wasn't something just for fun," she said. "It's like God is asking you to do it."

When Baha returned to her two jobs, she wore the scarf.

One was a part-time position as a bellhop. The other was a full-time sales job with commissions in The Pearl Factory, a franchise gift shop in the resort that requires employees to follow Disney's dress code, the lawsuit states.

Her supervisors, she said, would not let her continue working either job.

Disney offered to accommodate her religious attire with a "backstage" job out of the public view, the lawsuit states.

The Pearl Factory allowed Baha to continue wearing her scarf but transferred her away from Disney property, where the dress codes didn't apply. Her sales commissions fell from $400 to $700 a week to $40 a week at the new shop in the Old Town tourist attraction on U.S. Highway 192, she said.

She quit the Old Town job because of the drop in pay; Disney fired her from the part-time post because she refused to remove the scarf, according to the lawsuit.

"Plaintiff refused to work without her religious scarf as it is part of her religious beliefs and refused to be humiliated and downgraded by accepting the less favorable position in the backstage," the lawsuit states. "She was therefore terminated."

Baha's lawyer, Frank T. Allen of Orlando, described his client as an ideal employee who had embodied multicultural diversity and tolerance that Disney appears to champion through its worldwide marketing.

"This is totally contradictory to what they're portraying," he said.

What Disney workers wear has been regulated meticulously since Disneyland opened in 1955 to produce what is now marketed as the Disney experience.

"A big part of that show is you, with your quick smile, your eagerness to help and your willingness to maintain the Disney Look that our guests have come to associate with our very special brand," Walt Disney World Resort president Al Weiss wrote in the current employee handbook. "Each of you has helped uphold our heritage in so many ways, such as through your commitment to the Disney Look."

Everything from the socks on their feet to chewing gum, frowning in public and the cut of their hair is spelled out for the theme parks' 70,000 employees. But the resulting beard-free image conflicts with the distinctive religious attire and grooming practices for devout followers of Islam, Judaism and some other religions.

Arab-American groups say discrimination against Muslim women wearing hijabs has soared since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Just this week, the U.S. Department of Justice announced that it had compelled an Oklahoma school district to permit its female students to wear hijabs in class.

"What is a surprise in this particular case, if these allegations are indeed true, are Walt Disney's response to them," said Rabiah Ahmed, a spokeswoman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington, D.C. "It being such a huge corporation, you would think they would be more sensitive to its employees' needs and diversity."

A sales clerk wearing a religious scarf should not disrupt anyone's Disney experience, according to the American-Arab Anti Discrimination Committee.

"I'm guessing she's not dressed as Snow White, just wearing the standard Walt Disney uniform," said Leila Al-Qatami, a spokeswoman for the organization. "I don't think it [the hijab] impairs or in any way detracts from a person's experience at Disney World, and so our organization believes that you should make accommodations for religious clothing."

Henry Pierson Curtis can be reached at 407-420-5257 or hcurtis@orlandosentinel.com.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Very interesting--

She signed up to the policy when she took the job. Too bad she couldn't work things out. There are no small parts, only small actors.

Too bad Disney can't get rid of CMs who do frown in public, carry a visible pack of cigarrettes, and have a sour attitude.

I don't think my experience would have been ruined by seeing her in her hijab.

[Captain Crook]

I don't think my experience would have been ruined by seeing her in her hijab.
I think mine would.

She had options and chose her own course. It's too bad a court may have to waste time on this stuff.
pirate:

[All Aboard]

Good luck finding a jury that will be sensitive to this right now.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I hope this lawsuit gets dropped. Too bad people are so lawsuit happy.

[TiggerFreak]

What a bunch of BS.
Hope she can get her church to support her family.

[dcentity2000]

There was a similar case to this in the UK.

A headmaster was accused of racial discrimination because he insisted that school uniform be worn instead of traditional muslim dress.

Whilst the courts initially upheld the claim, the House Of Lords (top domestic court) held that the headmaster had not acted in any such way and that the requests made by the headmaster were not unreasonable, especially given that he had considered the case individually, permitted individula worship and so on. They went on to say in obiter that the child had the option of studying at many other schools and was not under pressure to attend this particular one.



Rich::

[Bob O]

Yes it would detract from my visit if she is wearing anything on her head other than her disney supplied uniform.
Just another BS lawsuit!!

[manning]

Too bad people are so lawsuit happy.




It's too bad we don't have the system they have in Europe. If you sue there you better be sure you have a winable case. If the plaintiff loses the case they have to pay the defendants court costs.

[seashoreCM]

Originally posted by Bob O
Just this week, the U.S. Department of Justice announced that it had compelled an Oklahoma school district to permit its female students to wear hijabs in class.
That is a public school receiving public funds and which the young citizens are compelled to attend if they choose not to spend money on private school. On the other hand, Disney is a private company.

Meanwhile, are employees allowed to wear other kinds of scarves for example during cold weather? Are employees allowed to wear other kinds of religious wear such as skullcaps?

It would appear to me that Disney has the right to require a uniform appearance of its employees in certain areas (hence the term "uniform"). And "costume" means that you are required to wear just that, no more, no less. For all I know there may be some company somewhere in the U.S. where the required uniform for a large number of employees includes a habib or a skullcap.

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

[momof2minnies]

If people don't like the way things are done in this country why do they come to begin with? I say board the plane back home and take your family and religion with you.

[johare]

What's wrong with these people? We already had a so-called muslim suing because she wanted to wear a full face covering for her drivers license photo (fortunately I think this idiot lost), now we have a Disney employee wanting to wear a head scarf when 'on stage' at Disney. What's next? Actors in movies wearing headscarfs or turbins regardless of the role they are playing? How about Hooters girls in Burka's?

Sounds like Disney make every effort to accomodate this fool. I hope she loses her case. If her family suffers it's only due to her stupidity.

[grinningghost]

Originally posted by Bob O
Yes it would detract from my visit if she is wearing anything on her head other than her disney supplied uniform.
Just another BS lawsuit!!

ITA. Disney CM's are just that - members of a cast, which is supposed to put on a "show" for the guests. How many times have you seen someone in a Broadway play wearing a religious headpiece along with their costume? It would absolutely detract from the experience.

This lawsuit really has me fired up.

[WDWisTheBest]

Originally posted by Bob O
Yes it would detract from my visit if she is wearing anything on her head other than her disney supplied uniform.

It would detract from my visit also. Either she can conform to the job requirements or get another job.

[grinningghost]

What I find most mind boggling is the fact that I've been going to WDW since 1972, and I have NEVER seen a CM wearing any type of religious gear at all. Why is it all of a sudden this whole Muslim thing is so important? :confused:

[PKS44]

Originally posted by momof2minnies
If people don't like the way things are done in this country why do they come to begin with? I say board the plane back home and take your family and religion with you.

They come to this country because they think they will have more freedom to practice whatever religious stuff they think is important to them...just because their religious stuff is different from yours or the majority should not matter----they actually expect the government to protect their right to practice their religion anyway they want...

that said, freedom to practice religion is just that--freedom to practice your religion---it does not give anyone a RIGHT to work any job or for any old company ..so this lawsuit seems to be without merit...but saying they should leave the country because their religious ideas differ from what ever yours are is ignorant...Disney has a right as an employer to require a certain uniform--if she did not like it she is free in this country to find another employer....she or THEY do not have to leave the country jsut because you don't agree with their religion...

[Bob O]

This happens because muslims dont want to be part of a american culture/society and assilimate into our country like every other immigrant group has. They want to be here but be separate from us and IMPOSE their values on us.

[JenBlaze]

Do you people realize how incredibly bigoted and intolerant you sound right now?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that one woman wearing a hijab would ruin your vacation. If that actually is the case, I suggest you take a step back, join reality for a little while, and THEN go back and take a look at Disney World. It's a great place, a fun vacation, and that's all.

This woman has just as much right to wear religious attire as anyone else. If Christians can wear a cross, she should be able to wear her head scarf.

And for those who would be "uncomfortable" seeing someone so obviously Muslim: You need an attitude adjustment, and fast. That woman - that individual woman - has done nothing to you.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Florida is a right to work state--it will be her and her attorney's responsibility to prove that Disney purposefully and illegally ousted her. In Florida--employers can discharge you at any time for any reason--so long as the reason is legal.

Thank you Jenblaze for your comments!!! Right on the $$$$

[RickW]

Originally posted by JenBlaze
This woman has just as much right to wear religious attire as anyone else. If Christians can wear a cross, she should be able to wear her head scarf.

If someone has a different experience feel free to chime in, but I have personally never seen any CM "on stage" wearing a cross.

I am a very strong supporter of religious liberty, and truly feel that anyone should be able to practice their religion as they see fit. If people choose not to "assilimate into our country" (however you choose to define that), that should be thier choice, however people should not expect the country to assimilate to them. Disney did offer her a position off stage, which seems to indicate that Disney did attempt to accomodate for her beliefs.

[Bob O]

WDW is suppossed to be an escape from "reality" and that is one of the many reasons i love wdw, it gets me away from what i have to deal with at work on a daily basis.
I have never seen any cm wear any type of religious attire. The cm's are given uniforms for a very specific reason and purpose and as part of the theming you would never see a cm in uniform from one area in the park walking in a different part of the park, it is all part of the show which makes wdw special, and this would be diminshied if cm's are allowed to wear anything they want for religious reasons.
If this is allowed what if the next cm is a devil worshipper and wants to wear something that they state is important to that religion. Once you go down this slippery slope and let cm's wear anything they cliam to be part of there religion how can disney ever enforce uniform standards.

[kathylovesdisneyworl]

Originally posted by JenBlaze
Do you people realize how incredibly bigoted and intolerant you sound right now?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that one woman wearing a hijab would ruin your vacation. If that actually is the case, I suggest you take a step back, join reality for a little while, and THEN go back and take a look at Disney World. It's a great place, a fun vacation, and that's all.

This woman has just as much right to wear religious attire as anyone else. If Christians can wear a cross, she should be able to wear her head scarf.

And for those who would be "uncomfortable" seeing someone so obviously Muslim: You need an attitude adjustment, and fast. That woman - that individual woman - has done nothing to you.

To me it has nothing to do with one person wearing a hijab at work. When she was hired she agreed to the Disney dress code. She had no problems going to work for 5 years without it. Once she changed her mind it was her choice. Either continue to work for Disney and not wear it or leave Disney and find a job that doesn't have a dress code. Very simple. I work at a hospital and we have a dress code. If I don't like it I work somewhere else.

Also, since you mentioned the cross, do you know if Disney allows this?

[grinningghost]

Originally posted by Bob O
This happens because muslims dont want to be part of a american culture/society and assilimate into our country like every other immigrant group has. They want to be here but be separate from us and IMPOSE their values on us.

Call me a bigot or ignorant or whatever you want, Bob is absolutely correct in his statement. If people want to come to America so much, they need to realize that it's an established country. Things have been running pretty well for more than 200 years - why all of a sudden is all of this Middle Eastern stuff being shoved down our throats?

If these people look to Americans and say "hey, that looks like a great place to live", why would they want to come over here only to act like they're living in their home country? It simply doesn't make sense.

If I want to move to Iraq, and headscarves are mandatory, well, I better be willing to wear one, or I should stay here.

[A Mickeyfan]

I read the article and laughed.... here she is wanting to sue her employer becasue she cannot wear her head scarf & an attorney took the case... Fl is suppose to be a right to work state meaningt that you really cannot sue your employer if they terminate you...
...... here is my husband, he has worked for the same company for 17 years...injured on the job 10 years ago, has had 3 surgery's, his last was this past Nov. He was called into work on 4/19 & told that 4/23 would be his last day because they feel he can no longer perform his job duties due to his knee!!! The entire thing was bull...he had the doctor state that he could preform the tasks and now the company (very large newspaper well known all over the USA) is saying that they cannot take him back because he is an insurance risk!!! He cannot sue his employer!!! He has gone to about 7 attorney's and no one will take on the case, all claiming it is a right to work state and you cannot go after your employer.... the only thing he can do is to go after workers comp!!! I don't understand how this woman can sue!!!!!
I am a former Disney Company employee, you have to sign all sorts of things when you join the company...you are WELL aware of what you can and cannot wear...she has been employed by them for sometime & NOW she wants to wear her scarf..... they have offered to place her back stage...but that wasn't good enough!! Tuff on her..... there are many people who would want her job.... she is replaceable..... if she cannot obey the dress code.... then she shouldn't be working there. If this woman actually ends up going thru with this .... I don't know what our country is coming to... it shouldn't even be up for discussion to sue!!! :scratchin :mad:

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Sorry--this is long...

You are right Mickeyfan we are right to work...but obviously by this case--it is possible to sue...I think the attorney took it over what is going on right now in our world--he'll gain fame even if he doesn't win a dime on her behalf--could be famous or infamous--but I'm sure his name will be recognized somewhere.

I had some discriminatory issues when I was pregnant. Basically kicked out of my job for an incompetant person to take it. My mother is familiar with labor law as a human resources specialist. Basically--I would have had to go back to work and not get my former job and then go through the department of labor to have them determine if my company broke the law. Lawyers will only take the "legitimate cases" if they are sure they can win. In any case--the lady was fired when I was on maternity leave -- HR had called me on leave b/c apparently she said that she hadn't be provided proper training. I found this out after the fact. I had been to HR several times complaining of my treatment and thought they were following up on me--so I had complained how they gave me a lazy employee to train who never showed up on time and would take breaks after only 10 minutes of working and be gone 2 hours. Surprise Suprise--she was fired while I was on leave :wave: and i had my job back when I returned :duck:. For all the hassle--I had no case since I got my job back--would have been a she said/she said thing.

As far as your husband--too bad no attorneys would not take the case--he would have to prove that a federal law was broken--if that is possible, then you would have a case. Right to work or not--there are certain things employers are NOT entitled to do and they are posted in every place of employment. Everyone has a right to sue--it is whether or not they will win. Of course my mother just got fired from her job for refusing to lie. Would be lovely if she could sue--but how in the world would you prove something like that!

In any case--grinninghost--I kind of agree with you--but the difference in our country is you can wear what you want when you live here as we do have freedom of expression and religion. Kind of a nuisance at times, yes. Working here though, I agree with everyone--you have to follow the dress code you sign up to when you are employed. I worked at the Vero Beach resort and remembered that you were limited to 1 ring on each hand (I thing a wedding set counted as 1 ring), no bracelets and no necklaces as they could get caught on things (I was in housekeeping) and 1 pair of earrings. Does this mean I could have sued b/c I had double-pierced ears :hyper: .

by the way--the driver's license lady did lose her case and had to have a full face picture.

[johare]

Originally posted by JenBlaze
Do you people realize how incredibly bigoted and intolerant you sound right now?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that one woman wearing a hijab would ruin your vacation. If that actually is the case, I suggest you take a step back, join reality for a little while, and THEN go back and take a look at Disney World. It's a great place, a fun vacation, and that's all.

This woman has just as much right to wear religious attire as anyone else. If Christians can wear a cross, she should be able to wear her head scarf.

And for those who would be "uncomfortable" seeing someone so obviously Muslim: You need an attitude adjustment, and fast. That woman - that individual woman - has done nothing to you. Disney is 100% within it's rights to tell CM's what is and isn't appropriate for them to wear when they are 'on stage'. It doesn't matter if it's body piercing, facial hair, heavy makeup, a yarmulke, a cross or this woman's ridiculous head scarf. It's their business and they make the rules. If they let this go, what's next? What if someone decides that a burka is proper wear due to their religious beliefs? Disney tried to accomodate this woman and offer her a job backstage, which she refused. She's obviously just out for attention or money.

You might think people need an attitude adjustment, and maybe you're even open minded enough that a black Snow White or Sleeping Beauty in a burka wouldn't bother you, but others, including me don't agree. If I see a CM wearing a muslim headscarf, I'll make it a point to file a complaint with guest services.

[outstandinfarmer]

This woman has just as much right to wear religious attire as anyone else. If Christians can wear a cross, she should be able to wear her head scarf.

Christians aren't carrying a giant cross on their backs or sprouting wings from their backs. That would be a distraction just like the hijab. It is a tiny cross that can be put under their clothing where noone can see. If she would like to put her hijab under her clothing, then do so. There is a dress code and there is nothing more to it. If she can wear that, then I want to wear a tube top to work. I don't like being covered due to health reasons. I overheat. I understand that it is a part of her religion, but if they are trying to accomodate her and she agreed to the dress code then she should dress appropriately. Same as peircings or tatoos.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by manning
It's too bad we don't have the system they have in Europe. If you sue there you better be sure you have a winable case. If the plaintiff loses the case they have to pay the defendants court costs.
While I agree with you in spirit, it would seem to me that the European system pretty much denies people of lower income levels the ability to bring a suit that is a close call. First, they would have enough trouble paying their own attorney (who would likely work for a cut, so perhaps that's not an issue) but would also have to risk paying the court costs, which could be high should the defense go out and bring in a huge highly paid team. It just doesn't seem like the right solution to me.

[Bob O]

Manning has the right solution!!!
With the current system it is way too easy to sue any company with money with the hope they will throw a few dollars your way just to get rid of you. It costs little to sue a company now a days with the glut of ambulance chasing lawyers in our country.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by Bob O
[Manning has the right solution!!!
With the current system it is way too easy to sue any company with money with the hope they will throw a few dollars your way just to get rid of you. It costs little to sue a company now a days with the glut of ambulance chasing lawyers in our country.
A good counterpoint, and I do agree that there is a problem with frivolous lawsuits. I am just worried that nobody could afford to take the chance on a lawsuit even when they were wronged. After all, if the loser pays court costs, why not run them up if you're a rich defendent (since it gives you a better chance to win, in theory)?

[johare]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
A good counterpoint, and I do agree that there is a problem with frivolous lawsuits. I am just worried that nobody could afford to take the chance on a lawsuit even when they were wronged. After all, if the loser pays court costs, why not run them up if you're a rich defendent (since it gives you a better chance to win, in theory)? I think it should be up to the judge to recognize and throw out frivolous lawsuits before they get to the point of running up big court costs. This case seems clear. Woman didn't wear scarf when she was hired, later decided that she would start wearing it, Disney made every attempt to accodmodate her, but it wasn't good enough. Case dismissed!

[April76]

Originally posted by JenBlaze
Do you people realize how incredibly bigoted and intolerant you sound right now?

I think people have raised valid points. The responses I've read are opinions mostly based on "Disney experience".

Originally posted by JenBlaze
I find it incredibly hard to believe that one woman wearing a hijab would ruin your vacation. If that actually is the case, I suggest you take a step back, join reality for a little while, and THEN go back and take a look at Disney World. It's a great place, a fun vacation, and that's all.

"One woman" today.... two tomorrow.... etc., etc., etc.,.....

Originally posted by JenBlaze
This woman has just as much right to wear religious attire as anyone else. If Christians can wear a cross, she should be able to wear her head scarf.

Disney costume guidelines don't permit necklaces, etc. from being seen while on stage. Guidelines are very specific regarding earrings, rings, piercings, tattos, and grooming standards for ALL castmembers.

Originally posted by JenBlaze
And for those who would be "uncomfortable" seeing someone so obviously Muslim: You need an attitude adjustment, and fast. That woman - that individual woman - has done nothing to you.

I can't say I've ever seen a "standard" Disney costume.... everything is specific to the area the person works in..... if an article of personal clothing conflicts with the "costume" of that job; then it detracts from guests' Disney experiences..... it has nothing to do with being "uncomfortable about seeing someone so obviously Muslim".


Just my two cents.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by WDWisTheBest
It would detract from my visit also. Either she can conform to the job requirements or get another job. ITA. She knew the policy when she was hired, and performed her job for months without the headscarf. It was only when she returned after maternity leave that she began wearing the scarf.

And the thing is, Disney OFFERED her another job, in a "backstage" area, where she could wear her headscarf and be out of a guest contact area. She declined. If Disney had fired her without even an attempt to find something else for her, that would be one thing. But they tried to accommodate, and are now being sued. :rolleyes:

:earsboy:

[grinningghost]

I hope this is straying off-topic too much, but I really wonder if any of this would have materialized back when Walt was first opening Disneyland.

Things were much easier back then. I'll bet there wasn't much moaning and groaning about proper uniform requirements. People were probably just happy to be working for Disney and accepted the uniform without question.

Why oh why must people make issues out of non-issues?:confused:

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Why oh why must people make issues out of non-issues?

I think it boils down to that people think they are "entitled" to certain things when they aren't.

She thinks she is "entitled" to visibly portray her religion while on the job--the constitution doesn't provide for that. It just provides that you cannot descriminate based on religion. She was not terminated for being Muslim--she just think she was. She thinks that b/c of her religion, she is entitled to wear what she wants..that is not the case.

[grinningghost]

Originally posted by Lisa loves Pooh
I think it boils down to that people think they are "entitled" to certain things when they aren't.

She thinks she is "entitled" to visibly portray her religion while on the job--the constitution doesn't provide for that. It just provides that you cannot descriminate based on religion. She was not terminated for being Muslim--she just think she was. She thinks that b/c of her religion, she is entitled to wear what she wants..that is not the case.

I think you said it perfectly. There is a time and a place for everything. Religion and work don't mix - unless you happen to be a priest or something.;)

[PKS44]

to those who think being Muslim or being a religious Muslim is somehow not being American - I cannot disagree more strongly --Your notion that being an American or part of this country means adopting the majority religion or culture is not just wrong it is bad for our country...we thrive not despite our diversity--but because of it--we succeed because we don't care what you do with your religious or cultural ideas --if you can do what you do WITHOUT hurting anyone else and do it successfully there is a place for you in this country..DIVERSITY expands the marketplace and opportunity for ALL.....the real value in America is the value we have placed on LIBERTY....that includes Disney's liberty to set a dress code and hire and fire as they see fit to succeed....so I agree this suit is ridiculous but I think those saying that Muslims or anybody else is shoving their cultyre down our throat or refusing to assimilate are showing a bigoted naivete that makes American look bad...let freedom ring...

Paul :wave2:

[katerkat]

Originally posted by outstandinfarmer
It is a tiny cross that can be put under their clothing where noone can see.

And, if the cross can't be put under clothing, it can't e worn. I was a lifeguard and a necklace would be visible with a bathing suit, obviously. So I couldn't wear one.

When I could not meet the uniform guidelines due to an injury, I was moved to an area with low guest interaction.

[grinningghost]

Originally posted by PKS44
so I agree this suit is ridiculous but I think those saying that Muslims or anybody else is shoving their cultyre down our throat or refusing to assimilate are showing a bigoted naivete that makes American look bad

I would so love to see it your way, but I can't. Religion should be a private thing. I have no problem with someone practicing whatever religion they want, be it Islam or devil worship, just practice it in the right place and the right time.

[JenBlaze]

Originally posted by grinningghost
Call me a bigot or ignorant or whatever you want, Bob is absolutely correct in his statement. If people want to come to America so much, they need to realize that it's an established country. Things have been running pretty well for more than 200 years - why all of a sudden is all of this Middle Eastern stuff being shoved down our throats?

I suggest that you and Bob go Google "Ellis Island".

American History 101, dear: This 200+ year old country - a baby compared to most countries - was BUILT by immigrants. We are not like other nations, who have 2000 or more years of history behind them. America is a mix of every nationality and religion under the sun. We were founded with the idea that America could be a place where all those people could celebrate their individual beliefs without being persecuted for them.

Your level of intolerance just stuns me. It's attitudes like yours that make people who are not Christian and/or white afraid for their personal safety and civil rights.

[DisneyFanGuy]

It's not insensitive to communicate a dress code when hiring, and enforce it consistently with everyone. That is professional, and fair for everyone. It's also the right of anyone to sue anyone over anything. Our courts can and should decide on the merit.

Religion is very personal. The woman involved is probably very sincere, and believes that Disney is wrong. I certainly don't condemn her for feeling that way.

This reminds me of the suit against Hooters back in the 90s. A class action lawsuit was brought against them by a group of men who wished to be hired on as servers. They felt that their civil rights were violated by Hooters having a more, uh, specific hiring profile for their table attendants.

Hooters was eventually proven correct because they considered their servers "performers", and just as a movie may only consider actors who fit the profile of a role, Hooters was allowed to communicate and select according to their profile. They also enforce a very specific dress code. LOL!

I employ people of various religions and backgrounds as servers. We have a very specific dress code and we are ok if we enforce in with everyone and don't change things for specific people in the middle of the process. Disney will be fine if they have enforced their dress code with everyone consistently. If they haven't, then they deserve to be penalized. You cannot allow religious dress differences with some employees and not with others. That's where they would get in trouble.

[katerkat]

Originally posted by DisneyFanGuy
This reminds me of the suit against Hooters back in the 90s. A class action lawsuit was brought against them by a group of men who wished to be hired on as servers. They felt that their civil rights were violated by Hooters having a more, uh, specific hiring profile for their table attendants.

Hooters was eventually proven correct because they considered their servers "performers", and just as a movie may only consider actors who fit the profile of a role, Hooters was allowed to communicate and select according to their profile. They also enforce a very specific dress code. LOL!

Actually, Hooter's semi-lost this suit. They may not have to hire men, but they did have to pay several thousand dollars to men who applied to work there within several years in a class action suit. The student president of my college applied at a Hooters the summer before he started college, and received a check during his senior year. Made quite a story! :teeth:

[grinningghost]

Originally posted by JenBlaze


Your level of intolerance just stuns me. It's attitudes like yours that make people who are not Christian and/or white afraid for their personal safety and civil rights.

This has me laughing a little, sorry.;) If you were to come face to face with me, you would probably feel very silly making that statement - I don't think I could scare anyone.

How tolerant is it for you to tell me that religion shouldn't be private? That's my opinion and in America we have that right, don't we?

But back to the topic. I am very tolerant of Muslim women wearing headscarves. You will not see me ripping the scarf off a woman in the local mall. She has the right to wear it and I respect that. The topic refers to wearing a headcover at WORK. Where the dress code does not allow it.

WDW, as repeated over and over, is a fantasy vacation destination. The employees are "cast members" who are in "costume". A headscarf worn along with a specific costume is going to ruin the effect. It's nothing more than that. You wouldn't wear a pink feather boa along with a 4 star general costume - it would look stupid. I don't know if I can find any words to make that more clear.

[Bob O]

We may be a "so-called baby" compared to other countries in the world but due to our american culture we have in short order and rather easily out-distanced these countires in technology/medicine/living conditions/standard of living and why when they have problems they come begging to get some help from the taxpayers of this great country.
As for this country being a melting pot, it is true that people from all over the world have come to these shores and became citizens and part of being a citizen is assmiliating into being an american first and a member of your old country second.
Some people i guess perfer to live in the 14 or 15th century where woman are treated worse than animals and that is fine if they choose to do so, just dont try to make americans act in the same manner that is common place in the middle east at the current time!!!

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Some people i guess perfer to live in the 14 or 15th century where woman are treated worse than animals and that is fine if they choose to do so, just dont try to make americans act in the same manner that is common place in the middle east at the current time!!!

Maybe I missed something--umm...we are talking about a woman who 'chose' to wear her scarf--she isn't trying to force others to do anything except allow her to wear something. Nor is her spouse requiring other woman to do the same. Why do people always assume that when someone (especially women) does something different, then they are imposing it on everyone? Yes it is frivilous in the lawsuit category--but the statement has nothing to do with the topic of her personal lawsuit with disney.

Additionally--are we debating her merits of being in the US? I don't know if she is an American citizen--native born or otherwise. There are many american born cultures that adopt what 'regular' people might assume to be strange or demoralizing to woman--but that is the brilliance of this country. We have the right to practice and live our lives according to our faith. (Obviously within law--if your faith says to go steal property or harm people--obviously--you do not have the right to do that!!!)

In regards to this woman--her culture may mandate it--but she lived just fine for years not following the customs of her religion. She chose to after she had a baby--only she knows why and if it was her free choice--or at the urging of others. We will never know. However--her assumption that it is her entitlement to not have to follow the rules of work because of her religion--then she needs to find a job that is more accomodating. It is like for Christian (or Jewish religions)--if your job requires employees to work Sunday hours (or Saturday hours) and you refuse--they have every right to terminate you. Basically find a job to accomodate your schedule/personal requirements if your faith is that strong to compel you not to work on those days or follow a particular dress code.

As Disneyfanguy said--as long as Disney is enforcing it across the board--then the lawsuit is frivilous. If she has witnesses and has evidence that shows that Disney consistently allows the jewish men to wear their Yamakes (sp? sorry), the catholics are allowed to wear crucifixes, and other faiths can wear whatever relics their faiths support--then she totally has a case. I don't believe this to be the case--and therefor think she is wasting the courts time.

Whose next?

[PKS44]

Originally posted by Bob O
We may be a "so-called baby" compared to other countries in the world but due to our american culture we have in short order and rather easily out-distanced these countires in technology/medicine/living conditions/standard of living and why when they have problems they come begging to get some help from the taxpayers of this great country.
As for this country being a melting pot, it is true that people from all over the world have come to these shores and became citizens and part of being a citizen is assmiliating into being an american first and a member of your old country second.
Some people i guess perfer to live in the 14 or 15th century where woman are treated worse than animals and that is fine if they choose to do so, just dont try to make americans act in the same manner that is common place in the middle east at the current time!!!

Keep digging -your comments show an ignorance of what it is that allowed us to out-distance those other countries in the fields you mention...it has nothing to do with what you are calling american culture...it has to do with what you are trying to quash--the wide open welcome we roll out for anyone based on the merit of what they can bring to the marketplace....the reasons we have succeeded is that we attract and nourish the best and brightest based on what they produce--what they do--not what they believe relgiously or culturally---we don't care what their pedigree is or their faith--anyone has the opportunity to pursue happiness and in so doing everyone's happiness is expanded because you can't get happy unless you are providing something that makes others happy...REAL American Culture is nothing more or less than the distillation of the best of a wide open menu of options that anyone can offer=regardless of dress, relgion, color, etc...

and I still think the Muslim lady has no legal basis for this lawsuit for the record but she should be free to open her own resort and allow Muslims to wear hajibs and if she succeeds in the marketplace over Disney it will only because people freely chose her place...that is how it works...FREEDOM is the important American value--it is amazing how many so called Americans fail to appreciate that and want to force their view of culture on the minority...

Paul :wave2:

[KNWVIKING]

Few points from meandering through this thread in no particular order:

A Christian wearing a discrete Cross necklace is hardly comparable to a woman wearing a hijib. The necklace is not distracting, it does not become "the show".

As a guest or citizen of the USA she is not being denied her right to religious freedom. People in this country have the right to smoke cigarettes. But you don't have the right to smoke them in my house.

Our country is a great melting pot. What's that mean ? Doesn't it mean "one from many" ? If you put a box of Crayolas into a melting pot & came back a month later, would you see a single color, or 64 individual colors ? In the past it seemed the imigrants who came to this country had a deep desire to be AMERICAN's. Now, IMO, they want to come to this country to have AMERICAN Rights, but still be who they were. And I'm not talking about not being proud of your heritage or forgetting where you came from, but do you want to be known as an AMERICAN first & foremost, or an " fill in the nationality of your choice" and AMERICAN second.

I imagine that in all religions people are at different levels in their faith. I'm sure there are many people who would call themselves Christians who haven't set foot in a Church or opened a Bible since their mom stopped taking them to Sunday School. Does that mean that a Christian working as bartender who gets "saved", rededicates his life to Christ, should insist the bar owner stop serving liquire ? Or should he realize a bar is not where he should work & move on. If this woman feels that she cannot be a good Muslim without wearing her headgear, then it's she who should make the change, not Disney.

[WDSearcher]

Well said, Viking!

:earsboy:

[zalansky]

To all of you who said this is a frivilous lawsuit - I agree. Our society has become so sue-happy, especially at companies with big bucks like Disney - it is sickening.
Hopefully this woman and her attorney will lose and be required to pay back all of Disney's legal fees and expenses.

[Coach Rick]

I would have to agree with the vast majority here. Why is it we have to please and bend to everyone’s whim these days? I don't see it as bigoted to say if someone doesn't like it, then leave. It's a fact!! If you are at a party, and having a bad time, would you stay? No! I may have missed it, but I didn't see anyone here say she HAD to leave. A mere statement that if she didn't like it, the door is open.

I work in a Catholic school, but we have students with other religious beliefs coming to our school, and kids could care less what god each other pray to, however, when they choose to come to our school, they know it is Catholic, and they pray Catholic prayers. Why would they do that? Simple, because it's the education they desire, and they are willing to conform to achieve that education. This situation is quite similar. If she was working within the guidelines set forth by Disney, and then decided to change, then it's time to find another school!!

ok, that's my 2cents...

[PKS44]

I think most here all agree that the woman in this suit is wrong...she has no right to make Disney accomodate her...but where I and a few others have a disagreement is that this has ANYTHING at all to do with being an AMERICAN....while I often agree with my Viking friend I think he and Rick and grinning ghost and others could not be more wrong in your assessment of what it is to be an American...our Motto is indeed E Pluribus Unum==from many one...but that is one country dedicated to liberty not one culture...we are not a melting pot...that is an incorrect metaphor...a salad would be far more accurate...wherein each piece retains its individuality but adds to the whole effect...we are a mosaic not melted crayons....and we are all enriched and better for the liberty that allows individuals to retain their individuality--just as eating out a restaurant would be dull if all were forced or encouraged to melt the menu down to some common form--our lives would be dull if we insisted or even strove for a society towards some common denominator culture...we will all be better off if we concentrate on insuring common liberty and letting the marketplace work out the culture...

Paul

[KNWVIKING]

but I was just going with the phrase that was already out there. Actually I prefer a stew analogy over your salad. In a salad, the individual ingrediants retain too much of their individuality. In a good stew however, each ingredient shares its flavor as well as is enhanced by the flavor of the others. In this case though, the stew is being ruined by an ingredient that wants to dominate the flavor - sorta like too much ocra in a gumbo.

[WDSearcher]

OK ... now I'm getting hungry! :earsboy:

[Coach Rick]

Originally posted by PKS44
but where I and a few others have a disagreement is that this has ANYTHING at all to do with being an AMERICAN....while I often agree with my Viking friend I think he and Rick and grinning ghost and others could not be more wrong in your assessment of what it is to be an American...
Paul

Ok! Where in my assessment of the situation did I say it was anti-American? I said IF, and that's a BIG IF you don't like it, then you may leave. If you can tolerate the rules, and culture of this great country, then by all means stay, and contribute. (although I was really suggesting that observation of the job. Let me try again, everyone seems to be saying the lawsuit is just wrong, and IF (oops, I said it again) she doesn't like the rules, then find another job. "The world needs ditch diggers too you know"--Ted Knight in Caddyshack....

Nothing un-American about finding a new job. Stay in country, be productive, and love life...Who knows, maybe in a couple of years she could bye some points at DVC, and vacation there with her scarf all she wants. I hope that was clearer. :D

[caseymaureen]

JenBlaze & PKS44,
Just because you guys are in the minority here, I wanted to let you know I'm on your side. :) That's all....
Casey

[disney1990]

No, a Cast Member cannot wear a cross or any other religious symbol that shows. The cross must be under your costume. It cannot show period.

[mike07801]

I think Disney should prevail. It is reasonable that they should require employees to dress a certain way. They require ALL employees in these positions to dress the same way, so there is no discrimination.

[wishuponastarforever]

Originally posted by Bob O
WDW is suppossed to be an escape from "reality" and that is one of the many reasons i love wdw, it gets me away from what i have to deal with at work on a daily basis.
I have never seen any cm wear any type of religious attire. The cm's are given uniforms for a very specific reason and purpose and as part of the theming you would never see a cm in uniform from one area in the park walking in a different part of the park, it is all part of the show which makes wdw special, and this would be diminshied if cm's are allowed to wear anything they want for religious reasons.
If this is allowed what if the next cm is a devil worshipper and wants to wear something that they state is important to that religion. Once you go down this slippery slope and let cm's wear anything they cliam to be part of there religion how can disney ever enforce uniform standards.

DITTO - I could not agree more!

[Karl C]

A dress code is just that.
A "Dress Code".
You know it going in, you agreed to it at sign on.
The point is mute. The frame work is set.
CM's attire relates to wear they work. End of story.
If they are in a backstage area, well that could a different story.
The public at large is not involved and the theam might be white/ blue collar instead. Like the rest of the country.
If a compromise cannot be worked out between the party's concerned to reach middle ground, then both party's have a business/personel decision to make don't they.
So if and when it gets that far and someone is still not happy, well I guess thats what they made lawyers for.
The jist of it is that after everything is said and done, thats how America really works, agree with it or not.
My point being Nobody gets it 100% their way in a case like this, it's just to bad people can't see that.

[johare]

Barring Muslim garb at pool gets city sued (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/09/muslim.garb.lawsuit.ap/index.html)

When she falls into the pool and her 'costume' drags her to the bottom, I hope nobody bothers to jump in to save her.

[Sarangel]

These are two entirely different situations. One requires people to wear a specific set of clothing and nothing extra in order to be employed doing a certain role. The other, reportedly, denied a woman entrance to a public area based on her clothing (and by implication her religious beliefs) while allowing others with similar clothing into the same area. If the pool enforced its "no street clothes" rule to *everyone* in the pool area, the woman has no case.

Sarangel

[johare]

Originally posted by Sarangel
These are two entirely different situations. One requires people to wear a specific set of clothing and nothing extra in order to be employed doing a certain role. The other, reportedly, denied a woman entrance to a public area based on her clothing (and by implication her religious beliefs) while allowing others with similar clothing into the same area. If the pool enforced its "no street clothes" rule to *everyone* in the pool area, the woman has no case.

Sarangel I doubt that others in the area were wearing similar clothing. If people were using the pool, it must have been reasonably warm which means that normal "street clothes" would have likely been shorts and a tshirt...ie, something that wouldn't really restrict your ability to swim too much should you fall into the pool. It could be a safety issue. I would think that wearing something which covers you from head to toe would make it very difficult to swim and would also make it more difficult for a person to rescue you should you fall into the pool. I think it's a judgement call that the people in charge of the pool should be allowed to make.

The last sentence in that article which says she's seeking "unspecified damages for humiliation, embarrassment and suffering." says it all.

[katerkat]

Originally posted by johare
It could be a safety issue. I would think that wearing something which covers you from head to toe would make it very difficult to swim and would also make it more difficult for a person to rescue you should you fall into the pool.

::yes:: I've worked at several different pools (public and private) before Disney, and all of them had a rule that a bathing suit must be worn - you couldn't even wear a t-shirt over your bathing suit. Clothing - especially WET clothing - would definitely be a hindrance in most of the rescue moves.

However, for the record, I think she should have been allowed in the pool area, just not in the pool.

And, Disney does allow women in full garb to use portions of the water parks. Obviously, not the speed slides, but I saw them in the creek.

[caseymaureen]

As Sarangel said, these are completely different cases. If the woman did not intend to swim, and other people were allowed to wear their "street clothes" into the pool area, then this is indeed discrimination. Whether it's religion based or just clothing based doesn't matter, it's still discrimination. This is a public pool, meaning that it is funded by the government and our taxes. This woman's taxes, no matter what religion she is or what religious beliefs she has, helped to fund this pool and she should not be turned away from letting her children swim. And I would guess that she and her family probably did feel pretty humiliated; imagine if you went to a public place for a family outting and were treated this way in front of your children and the general public.
To say that this is an issue of safety, that the dress would make it more difficult to rescue the woman, could be the only point the pool has going for it. However, this means that the pool should also bar all grossly overweight people, afterall, they're going to be hard to rescue, and they can bar all small children, because they're quite a risk around water. But that's not going to happen, imagine the uproar if these people were banned.

Muslim women in full dress come to the beach I work at all the time and not one has fallen into the water and drowned because of her clothing. From what I've seen, they don't come to swim, but to spend time with their families. They stay close to their children to keep an eye on them, which is more than I can say for most of the other women and families that come to our beach.

JoHare~ That's pretty harsh. To say you disagree is one thing, to say you hope someone drowns because of their religious beliefs? That's just sad.

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Personally, I think the pool lawsuit has merit. However, all she would be entitled to (I'm not a lawyer--so forgive me if I don't get this right) would be a portion of the fines.

In florida--the state with the highest incident of drownings--the only clothing restrictions at swimming pools are for those who actually wish to physically be in the water--no dress codes for the pool area (except for that which may expose too much).

Very different case from the disney case.

p.s. the only way her garb would make her sink to the bottom would be if it was weighted--people only otherwise sink like rocks if they do not know how to swim--not b/c of their clothing (my 2 children, ages 4 and 19 months, can float fully clothed courtesy of their swim survival lessons--so there's your proof).

[grinningghost]

Originally posted by katerkat


And, Disney does allow women in full garb to use portions of the water parks. Obviously, not the speed slides, but I saw them in the creek.

::yes:: We saw a woman in full garb jump into the Fantasia pool at ASMo. Her son told my DD that his mother was crazy.:crazy: ;)