Dark Days at Disney World

[Phoebesaturn]

I wonder if this is the norm? Seems that Disney continues to get further and further away from the values it was created under.



http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=PV04E02

Each Spring recruiters from Disney World fan out across the country seeking young college students who desire to be a part of the "Disney experience," advertised as "where fantasy comes to life and vacations always end happily ever after." The new recruits join the ranks of hundreds of young men and women for a six-month internship at the giant amusement park.

According to the mother of a daughter who signed up for the Disney World College Intern Program, the new recruits quickly discover that, instead of the family-friendly environment that the company projects to the public, they are in for an experience more akin to Pinocchio's "Pleasure Island."

"Terry," a twenty-year-old student from Glendale Community College in Phoenix, answered the call from a recruiter who visited her college last February. She agreed to work as a lifeguard at one of the Magic Kingdom's resorts. The young Christian woman was assured that she would be housed and work in a safe and pleasant environment, and that underage students would be segregated from those of legal drinking age--which is 21 in Florida.

"It didn't take long for me to discover," said Terry, "that my 'dream job' was beginning to look more like a nightmare." Despite being promised her own room, she was assigned to a cramped, Disney-owned apartment with five other underage women. Moreover, on her days off she was required to attend compulsory Disney training.

Although the other women in her apartment were under 21, the apartment directly across the hall was occupied by drinking-age men. Alcohol, drugs, and sexual activity became a regular routine in the apartment complex. "A favorite spot for late night partying and sex--both heterosexual and homosexual--was around the apartment building's swimming pool," Terry said. "The pool Jacuzzi was a frequent locale for open sexual activity."

Homosexuals represent a significant part of the staff at Disney--one of America's most gay-friendly corporations. Terry's Christian faith led to frequent taunts by homosexuals living in her apartment complex, and one bizarre encounter convinced Terry to end her Disney internship and leave after only two weeks on the job.

As Terry explained, "One afternoon, while walking in the courtyard outside of my apartment, my friend and I were met by two gay men, who proceeded to offer their usual taunts about my faith. Unexpectedly, the pair dropped their pants and proceeded to enact a sex act in front of us." The crude and repulsive exhibition was the last straw for Terry, who decided to end her employment with Disney.

I asked Terry about the security provided by Disney for residents of the apartment complex. She responded, "When I was hired, the recruiter told me that apartment security would not allow heavy partying or underage drinking, and that no drugs would be allowed. In fact, they only provided gate security. There was no security presence in the building as far as attempting to hold down the partying, drinking, drugs, or sexual activity."

...

[PKS44]

I don't know if it is true--but considering the source it is highly suspect....FRC is not a group I would ever trust with anything...

[All Aboard]

Seems that Disney continues to get further and further away from the values it was created under. Disney? Or, Disney College Program Cast Members that were housed in the room across from these girls and some Disney College Program Cast Members that were walking in the courtyard? I'd say the latter.

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by PKS44
FRC is not a group I would ever trust with anything...

Really based on what? I don't have any first hand knowledge of the group...but seems you do. With groups like CNN and the New York Times, FRC would have to be pretty bad in todays world to get that type of rep.




Disney? Or, Disney College Program Cast Members that were housed in the room across from these girls and some Disney College Program Cast Members that were walking in the courtyard? I'd say the latter.


I guess that depends if you think that Disney bears some sort of reasonability with the program...who they hire and how the allowed to conduct themselves while there. Clearly the people commit the acts bear most of the blame....but you have to wonder if its the climate the Disney is projecting and allowing to happen that encourages this type of behavior.

[dcentity2000]

This does sound slightly suspect to me - employees over on the Theme Park & Attractions board say exactly the opposite when they post. As for half of the described problems - I small a rat.



Rich::

[Chuck S]

I agree, the FRC is not what I would consider in any way an unbiased group. I take everything they say with a box of salt.

Later on the same page that you link an "inaccuaracy" on their part.

Another sign of the retreat from wholesome, pro-family values at Walt Disney World was the discontinuation in 2002 of regular church services at the Polynesian Resort. The popular services had been a tradition with vacationers since 1975.

Guess what, the Cathoilic church informed Disney that due to a shortage of priests, Catholic services would be discontinued, and guests would need to attend at the nearby Mary Queen of the Universe Shrine. Disney then also discontinued the Protestant service, which was not particularly well attended, anyway. Why pay for power and insurance for the Luau Cove for only a single, non-well attended service? The Catholic services (while I am not Catholic, I have traveled with friends that are) were always packed to overflowing.

Of course, I'm sure this little untruth was simply an oversite on FRC's part. :rolleyes: And they weren't deliberately trying to "bear false witness".

[caseymaureen]

While the College Program isn't perfect, it isn't what this article makes it out to be. It is true that there is partying, but it is exactly identical to every college campus I've ever visited. I haven't found a place yet where large quantities of twenty somethings get together and there are no parties or drinking. While security is somewhat tight, and underage interns are often terminated for drinking, it is the student's choice whether or not to drink or attend parties. My roommates often partied, I did not. It was my choice. I was never approached in any sort of aggressive or demeaning manner by any other CP cast members- straight or gay. Just because a person is gay does not mean that they will feel it necessary to expose themselves to random people. Unless the author made it a point to preach to the other residents about her faith, I don't see how it would ever really come up, or how any of them would be offended by it enough to make it an issue. Just a little unrealistic. If all of these things were that completely shocking to the author, no offense, but she needs to get out a bit more. It's one thing to choose how to live your life, it's another to be completely naive.

[davey3]

If the Family Research Council is the source I would bet my life that it is true. I trust James Dobson. I am a Christian who enjoys the fun family friendly side of Disney. I only spend money on Disney videos, etc that are consistent with my values. Disney has made much more money from their Sunny Side than they ever will from their dark side. I pray that the Sunny Side continues to win. - Leaving for Disney May 19!!!! - Davey

[dcentity2000]

Originally posted by davey3
If the Family Research Council is the source I would bet my life that it is true.

Is that a wager? ;)



Rich::

[disney1990]

My daughter and I have a very open relationship. She tells me everything. She was on the college program from August 2003 until January 2004. While there were kids that partied, she did not -- because she chose not to. Her experience with the Disney college program was positive for the most part and she is looking forward to being able to go back as a seasonal cast member. Maybe the girl in the story should have hung around a little longer. Maybe she should have investigated having other college program students terminated for their actions.

[Paul G]

Sounds like fun - where do I sign up? Do they take 44 year olds?

Its true - youth is wasted on the young!

I am not homosexual (married with 2 daughters) but from what I have read about the FRC its a hateful organization that is out to demonize homosexuality.

[hyzdufan]

Why wouldn't this be picked up in a newspaper, or some other publication? It just seems a bit suspect coming from a religious outfit.

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by hyzdufan
Why wouldn't this be picked up in a newspaper, or some other publication? It just seems a bit suspect coming from a religious outfit.

Becuase these are personal experinces seems that most people like tend to simply dismiss them as that persons problem or come up with the craziest of excues for the actions.

Some more from Jim Hill.

http://www.jimhillmedia.com/articles/guest/cmc.04012004.1.htm


I would bet this is not the norm. That however does not change what apparently happened to this girl. To brush it off as something that happens at every college campus is at best a lie. Also telling someone that seemed to be a victim of a crime to "get out more" is pretty silly. Maybe the gay roommates made it a habit to preach to this girl about their sexual preferences? People that are opening gay tend to make sure that everyone within a 5 mile radius gets the idea.

At the very least it seems if Disney needs to supervise and better police their dorms.

[RoyalCanadian]

Originally posted by davey3
If the Family Research Council is the source I would bet my life that it is true. I trust James Dobson. I am a Christian who enjoys the fun family friendly side of Disney. I only spend money on Disney videos, etc that are consistent with my values. Disney has made much more money from their Sunny Side than they ever will from their dark side. I pray that the Sunny Side continues to win. - Leaving for Disney May 19!!!! - Davey

The problem with Focus on the Family and their various subsidiaries is the fact that they hold up James Dobson and other FOTF and FRC folks as the models for Christiain faith. There is only one model for the Christian to base their faith upon; there is only one foundation stone in the Christian Church and it sure isn't a psychologist named James Dobson.

The problem with your wager is that you have already lost -- the FRC website has already been proven very wrong about the discontinuation of the Roman Catholic Masses at WDW. If your faith is based upon placing ultimate trust in FRC and FOTF as you have seemed to indicate with the words "I would bet my life that it is true", than what now?

[Chuck S]

There are a lot more inaccuracies and misleading statements on the same FRC page, in addition to the reason the services at the Luau Cove were discontinued.

Gosh, could it possibly be that the FRC and James Dobson have a political agenda of their own? :rolleyes:

And of course, newspapers NEVER report rumors or personal experiences :rolleyes: I find it hard to believe if any of these stories were credible that the Orlando Sentinal or some other area papers didn't pick up on it. I've seen plenty "negative" Disney news printed in the Sentinal. I'm not saying they're biased, I enjoy reading the paper when I stay at Disney, I'm just saying that the locals don't sugar coat Disney news, if it is real news.

[Maleficent2]

and I have swamp land in FL for sale if you beleive that hogwash.....


not saying that college kids don't drink and party but give me a break that story is way out there.....


Mal

[Neeter]

"Homosexuals represent a significant part of the staff at Disney--one of America's most gay-friendly corporations."

One of America's most gay-friendly corporations... yea glad they through that in there. Sure make me take this little article seriously!



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[crusader]

I wouldn't dismiss this person's experience. As noted from the Jim Hill article - she states very frankly:

Now I realize that oftentimes, perception is reality. Even though it felt like "everyone" was just there to party, I'm sure it was probably around 40% of the people. But they were a very LOUD minority.

This makes sense to me. These are college kids used to an environment of free reign and zero discipline when it comes to partying. This student remarked that her experience was worse than a 4 yr stint in the dorms at CU Boulder (which implies an RA or foreigner since the housing is so tight there no other students are usually able to remain on campus in the dorms beyond Freshman or Sophomore year). That also means she's either a grad student or unemployed.

I don't believe the environment is worse than Boulder. As my daughters have so aptly put it: "sex, drugs and alcohol are everywhere" in all of our colleges and universities with the exception of maybe the Evangelical "christian" facilities or WestPoint.

I'm not sure what you are implying by using the phrase "dark days" at Disney. 40% is a realistic number today. What is it exactly that Disney should be enforcing here? From what I'm reading the individuals across the hall from this girl were adult men of legal drinking age.

[caseymaureen]

Phoebesaturn,
I was saying that she needed to get out more if the entire situation was such a shock to her, not the supposed crime. She very easily could have made a complaint to security, to building management, or even to the authorities on the harassment and exposure. And in my personal experience, in life in general and the college program, the homosexuals are not the ones who try to make their lifestyles known to everyone in a 5 mile radius, the "Christians" are the ones often preaching to everyone who will listen and often to people who don't care to hear it. I did not personally find any of these intolerant people at Disney, I have however lived with them and been around them in other parts of my college career. I was there, on the CP and I lived in these same buildings. I witnessed none of this harassment of anyone for any reason, and I met people of many different religious, economic, cultural, and social backgrounds. In addition, the article never says that her roommates were homosexual, and it is not a lie to say that these things occur on college campuses. As a former CP who has lived on 2 different college campuses and visited many others, I think I have the experience to say that it is the truth.
The people who frequently criticize Disney for being gay friendly are asking the corporation to deny an entire population the priviledge of working or visiting a place that every other person in the world is invited to. Should the Vacation Planners ask a guest's sexual preference on the phone? Maybe at the gate? Should it be asked on the applications, in clear violation of anti-discrimination laws? How would these people propose to keep their gay-free theme parks gay-free? These "Christians" apparently read the Bible selectively, and missed out on that "Love thy neighbor" part...:rolleyes:

[dcentity2000]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
Becuase these are personal experinces seems that most people like tend to simply dismiss them as that persons problem or come up with the craziest of excues for the actions.

That doesn't really deter newspapers....



Rich::

[Chuck S]

And of course, none of these "timid" women report the problems to Disney security or any other authority...no, they wait and give a report to a biased anti-Disney website...where we know everyone is 100% truthful on the World Wide Web :rolleyes:

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by Chuck S
And of course, none of these "timid" women report the problems to Disney security or any other authority...no, they wait and give a report to a biased anti-Disney website...where we know everyone is 100% truthful on the World Wide Web :rolleyes:
I see nowhere in the story where it says whether she did or did not report the alleged incident to security. Why are you assuming she did not? For that matter, what makes you assume she didn't report it to "any other authority"? I am in agreement with those that say this story would go nowhere in a newspaper - they assume nobody cares about this sort of incident, and from the reaction of many (if not most) in this thread, I tend to think that might be true.

[Golter]

I cannot believe I along with others are wasting our times responding to this nonsense. Its the same old homophobic *** that is spread through made up stories like this. It is unsubstanciated, unverified, reckless, hateful, and right in line with many other antigay groups. I wouldn't expect less from the FRC.

[DWatWDW]

This thread appears to be getting ugly, and so we all need to settle down.

The original post does appear to be very sensational, and I would tend not to trust it.

Originally posted by davey3
If the Family Research Council is the source I would bet my life that it is true. I trust James Dobson. I am a Christian who enjoys the fun family friendly side of Disney. I only spend money on Disney videos, etc that are consistent with my values. Disney has made much more money from their Sunny Side than they ever will from their dark side. I pray that the Sunny Side continues to win. - Leaving for Disney May 19!!!! - Davey

I am not familiar with these organizations, but after a quick google I found out that Mr. Dobson's FOTF group is currently participating in a boycott of Disney.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/disney2.htm

This also makes me distrust the original article, as they plainly have an agenda.

Just my 2 cents though.

[raidermatt]

Even if the incidents in the original article are 100% true, it only provides a couple of anecdotes of what may or may not be a bigger problem.

Yes, if the kinds of things described are rampant, then yes, its a problem.

Its just that any reasonable person needs more than a couple of stories from a single person to start raising red flags.

If this organization is so concerned about what is going on, they certainly could do a more complete reporting job and truly get to the bottom of whatever is going on.

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
I see nowhere in the story where it says whether she did or did not report the alleged incident to security. Why are you assuming she did not? For that matter, what makes you assume she didn't report it to "any other authority"? I am in agreement with those that say this story would go nowhere in a newspaper - they assume nobody cares about this sort of incident, and from the reaction of many (if not most) in this thread, I tend to think that might be true.

If these people reported the incidents to Disney security, and they took no action, it SURELY would have been in the article as further proof that Disney has gone to Hades in a hand basket. If they reported it, and appropriate action was taken, that information was deliberately omitted, otherwise it would not be "worthy" of appearing on these sites as "evidence" of the decline of Disney. Nope, either they did NOT report them at all, or appropriate action was taken and that fact purposefully left out for sensationalism, which discredits the reports.

[Phoebesaturn]

I promise to post an article that shines a good light on Disney next time. :D The trouble is finding one....trust me I've been looking. Don't want to get the rep of being a doom and gloomer.(again)

[Chuck S]

No one is asking for happy articles, only articles that are credible, and accurate...not posted on a site with a political agenda of their own.

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by Chuck S
No one is asking for happy articles, only articles that are credible, and accurate...not posted on a site with a political agenda of their own.

I'm still looking for a site like that. ;) So far I've yet to find a site that does not have a political or some other self serving agenda. Plus I doubt that can stop the person who wrote it from injecting their own agenda into it.

[Timon71]

Hello everyone,
I'm a college program alum. I had THE BEST TIME of my life. YES, they do party. Didn't see the open alternative lifestyle like the article suggest. I always refer to my experience as 5 days of college/work & 2 da

[Timon71]

SORRY!!!! Hit wrong button.
I always refer to my experience of 5 days of college/work & 2 days of spring break. What goes on in the apartments & among fellow college program castmembers is the same that goes on at college campuses. Individuals just make a BIG deal out of it, because it's disney is involved. I'd LOVE to someday be a recruiter for the college program.


Have a disney day,
Jay

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
I'm still looking for a site like that. ;) It's human nature to complain about things that are wrong but not to praise when things are going well. People will take the time to write about the one bus driver they had a problem with on their Disney trip, but will often not spend any time writing about the 150 other Disney CMs they met during their week stay who were great.

So the chances of you finding a place on line full with people writing about how their college program roommates were terrific, or about how the neighbors they had on the CP were polite and didn't party is pretty slim .... :D

:earsboy:

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by Chuck S
If these people reported the incidents to Disney security, and they took no action, it SURELY would have been in the article as further proof that Disney has gone to Hades in a hand basket. If they reported it, and appropriate action was taken, that information was deliberately omitted, otherwise it would not be "worthy" of appearing on these sites as "evidence" of the decline of Disney. Nope, either they did NOT report them at all, or appropriate action was taken and that fact purposefully left out for sensationalism, which discredits the reports.

Let me see if I understand this: if they took action, and the article does not reference it, then the report is discredited and the incident never took place? That logic sounds sort of like a Monty Python sketch...

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by Golter
I cannot believe I along with others are wasting our times responding to this nonsense. Its the same old homophobic *** that is spread through made up stories like this. It is unsubstanciated, unverified, reckless, hateful, and right in line with many other antigay groups. I wouldn't expect less from the FRC.
I always find it amusing when accusations of hatefulness and phobia are made with a voice filled with vitriol and fear. Sort of ironic, that.

[Sarangel]

Don't read too much into someone else's post rwodonnell - it is very hard to hear the 'tone' of someone's words in print. It's equally possible that Goltar sees it as a simple statement of fact.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by Sarangel
Don't read too much into someone else's post rwodonnell - it is very hard to hear the 'tone' of someone's words in print. It's equally possible that Goltar sees it as a simple statement of fact.
Okay, fair enough. I ask the question, then - what exactly is "hateful" about the article? (In case it's not obvious, that is one of the baseless charges I get very tired of.)

[dcentity2000]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
Okay, fair enough. I ask the question, then - what exactly is "hateful" about the article? (In case it's not obvious, that is one of the baseless charges I get very tired of.)

Inferring negative characteristics by hook or crook is defamation and an offence; this article could be turning one ugly incident into an 'issue' that Disney has to deal with. You can take one phrase and spin it any way you please, it's just how the world works. This author could be trying to pass one unfotunate incident off as an 'issue' that Disney has or perhaps the author could be selectively quoting. As the article is quite openly critical of Disney I doubt they are holding back any damning evidence.



Rich::

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
Let me see if I understand this: if they took action, and the article does not reference it, then the report is discredited and the incident never took place? That logic sounds sort of like a Monty Python sketch...

I did NOT say the incident never took place, I'm saying the report is obviously written in a biased way to evoke a certain impression of Disney that may not be fully truthful, which in turn discredits the impression that Disney is somehow negligent.

It would be like saying: "My house burned down, the fire department never showed up, we have a lousy fire department, the fire department didn't do their job."

But I fail to disclose as to whether or not anyone called to report the fire. The incident would still have taken place, but the fire department could not put out a fire they didn't know about.

These people in the college program are ADULTS, and Disney is not responsible for actions of these adults in their off hours, any more than your employer is responsible for what you do in your free time. If laws and rules were being broken, and these incident(s) were not reported to Disney they could no more have taken any action than a fire department that no one calls to report a fire. That does NOT make Disney responsible , even though the report does it's best to bring the reader to that conclusion.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by Chuck S
These people in the college program are ADULTS, and Disney is not responsible for actions of these adults in their off hours, any more than your employer is responsible for what you do in your free time.
On this we agree.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by dcentity2000

Inferring negative characteristics by hook or crook is defamation and an offence; this article could be turning one ugly incident into an 'issue' that Disney has to deal with. You can take one phrase and spin it any way you please, it's just how the world works. This author could be trying to pass one unfotunate incident off as an 'issue' that Disney has or perhaps the author could be selectively quoting. As the article is quite openly critical of Disney I doubt they are holding back any damning evidence.

Excuse me, but couldn't Abu Ghraib be considered "one ugly incident"? If the incident did indeed occur, and if indeed this is sort of standard behaviour, then Disney should deal with it. At the very least, the incident described is clearly sexual harrassment, and I know at least in my world, my employer can be held responsible if they do not address an environment where such harrassment can occur. I am at somewhat of a loss to understand why there is less concern over this.

You may doubt the incident took place - that is one thing. To say it doesn't matter if it did is quite another.

[dcentity2000]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
Excuse me, but couldn't Abu Ghraib be considered "one ugly incident"? If the incident did indeed occur, and if indeed this is sort of standard behaviour, then Disney should deal with it. At the very least, the incident described is clearly sexual harrassment, and I know at least in my world, my employer can be held responsible if they do not address an environment where such harrassment can occur. I am at somewhat of a loss to understand why there is less concern over this.

You may doubt the incident took place - that is one thing. To say it doesn't matter if it did is quite another.

The point was that the article appeared to infer that this was an indication of Disney's standards slipping. You may as well say that the horror of September the eleventh was an indicator that America's information networks are useless. They're not. America's information networks have probably prevented many more attacks over the years.

Trying to pass a sentiment that one represents the whole or even the majority is an agressive tactic in the outset and this appears to be what has happened here. The fact that I give little credit to this story is irrelevant - the article still appears on the strength of testimonies on these boards to be written in an inciteful style.

It is worth noting that this article is hear say (which would not stand up in court, here or in America) whilst the accounts given by other employees on this board are not and are therefore more credible :)



Rich::

[Mickmse2002]

Interesting debate. If this is a pervasive culture in the program (and I havn't seen anything to give credence to this supposition) and Disney management has been made aware of the specific harassment as alleged and have not responded then they would be culpable under US law. I find it HIGHLY unlikely that Disney management would knowingly allow a hostile work enviornment, such as described in the article, to be fostered. I think at times what occurs is people have a mythical, mystical and unrealistic image of what the Disney of today is. Disney is an entertainment company catering to families in general. But the company is comprised of individuals, some good, some not so good, some we would call "moral and ethical", some we would not agree as being "moral and ethical". From my experience, having worked at a University for 16 years, it is not rational, and very "Pollyanish" for anyone to think Disney can control the behavior of these kids. The majority of college kids drink, many binge drink. This fact is nearly as timeless as Disney itself.

[CinderellaIam]

And in my personal experience, in life in general and the college program, the homosexuals are not the ones who try to make their lifestyles known to everyone in a 5 mile radius, the "Christians" are the ones often preaching to everyone who will listen and often to people who don't care to hear it

I agree, every homosexual I have been friends, co-worker and aquiantance with (living in NY and being in the fashiion industry, that is a LOT of homosexuals) I have NEVER known any one of them to push their lifestyle choice onto anyone else. Oh they certainly don't hide their life choice, but they don't get graphic about it in front of everyone, just as a heterosexual couple would not.

However those holier than thow Christians will preach at anyone who stands still. I was in a shoe store the day before Easter buying my 13 yr old niece shoes to go with her Easter dress. Buying shoes for a 13 yr old who wears a women's size 9 is no easy chore. She picked up a very "sparkly" pair of very high heels, before I could even raise my eyebrows a woman approached me and said " I see you are a Christian by the cross you are wearing, how could you possible let this child behave in such a manner? You are a disgrace to the Christian faith!". Well, to say I was shocked is putting it mildly. I turned to the woman and simply stated "Only God can judge us for our sins, and you, ma'm...have no resemblence to the Lord I was raised to obey and respect.

I mean really, where did this woman get off?!

[PKS44]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
Let me see if I understand this: if they took action, and the article does not reference it, then the report is discredited and the incident never took place? That logic sounds sort of like a Monty Python sketch...

no actually your inability to see the crystal clear logic is the only thing that sounds outlandish here...as matt very carefully and clearly explained there are only a few possibilities:

Possibility one is that Disney was never made aware of the problem--something the article never addresses and as Chuck S outlines with his fire/fire department example is a huge missing piece of information in order to judge anything about Disney's reaction to the whole thing...

Possibility two is that Disney was notified and have taken action to correct--which if the authors leave out that info is a HUGE piece of information missing-if intentional missing it is deceitful to say the least...(and typified by the dishonest way the same reporterr for the FRC misleadingly reported about the discontinuation of services at the Poly)--(if you do accept the fact that this was not represented accurately, then why did the reporter misrepresent this????)

Possibility three- is that Disney was notified and did nothing-- a possibility that would strengthen the notion being put forward that Disney is irresponsible on this issue and yet not something this reporter includes--a HUGE piece of evidence never offered--speaks volumes about how likely this possibility is..

In other words--no matter how you slice it this report is highly questionable based on simple logic and facts...

[rwodonnell]

Possibility 4: Disney was made aware of it, is addressing it in an ongoing manner, and the article does not address it because it is still unresolved or because they are unaware of what Disney's actions on the matter are.

In fact there are many more possibilities than exist in your simplistic model.

My problem is that you are calling the report "highly suspect", which calls into question the testimony of this woman, simply because the article does not reference Disney's response to the problem. That is not "crystal clear logic".

Also, regarding possibility one, as you outline them, I also fail to see how this woman's possible failure to report this to Disney results in your complete indifference to whether or not this occurred. Would you be so cavalier to someone who told a reporter they were raped? Are you aware of how many people do not report sexual assaults or harrassment right away? Most just try to remove themselves from the situation, because of fear, shame, or any number of natural (though undeserved) emotions. Reporting it later is not at all unusual.

I guess I just don't understand the indifference to this sort of story. Statements like "youth is wasted on the young" and "we are wasting our time" discussing this just mystify me.

[Mickmse2002]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
[I guess I just don't understand the indifference to this sort of story. Statements like "youth is wasted on the young" and "we are wasting our time" discussing this just mystify me. [/B]

I'm not being indifferent to the story. I just don't think it should be accepted as gospel on its face. I believe the OP was using this as an example of how Disney is slipping in it's management responsibility. I just do not see how this biased story containing unverified allegations are proof of "Dark Days at Disney World".

[Phoebesaturn]

Seems a few people have even skipped over the other report from Jim Hill that seems to sugguest some of the exact same problems...Like I said before I doubt this is the norm...but it does seem as if there is a problem there.



I lived in the Residence Halls at CU Boulder for all 4 years of my college experience. I worked for the Department of Housing as an RA, so believe me, I've seen a lot of weird stuff. Residence Halls are not nice places to live, but Vista Way was worse. Now, all I can speak of is MY experience, and while I feel I had an extreme situation, I don't think it was all that uncommon down there. I was 21 when I went on my program. I rarely drink, and I thought that if I lived with other girls over 21 that we would all be "over" the wild partying craze most freshmen and sophomores go through before they turn 21. I was wrong. In my apartment, there were 3 girls who are the "I'm only here to party" type people, 2 who were the "fun in the sun is better than regular school" type people, and me, the only "Disney-lover". To be honest, it was the 3 partying girls that made my living experience bad. They were loud girls to begin with, and they got even louder when they drank, which was about 6 nights out of 7. They were all 23 years old, and yet they insisted on bringing over 18-year old guys and supplying the alcohol for loud parties and ending up sleeping around with them. I had to sleep with my headphones playing music to drown out the noise, and then got to work the next morning exhausted. Our apartment was a constant mess (the "after-party" kind with beer cans everywhere and spilled food...etc). I looked forward to "PI night" when they would at least move the party somewhere else. I filed an official complaint to protect myself if we ever got "raided" and caught supplying alcohol to minors, but security never came around our place.

Now I realize that oftentimes, perception is reality. Even though it felt like "everyone" was just there to party, I'm sure it was probably around 40% of the people. But they were a very LOUD minority. The atmosphere at Vista Way was worse than anything I experienced at CU Boulder, which is ranked at the number one party school in the nation. And while some people did get caught and terminated, many more did not. There were many times when I considered quitting the program because my living experience was so miserable. And trying to change apartments was a whole other fiasco. It is definitely not as easy as other CPs have made it seem in their letters. But, I ended up sticking it out, and I think that was the right choice.






http://pub138.************/fjimhillmediafrm17.showMessage?topicID=374.topic

Here are a few more stories that both support the good and the bad at the program.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
My problem is that you are calling the report "highly suspect", which calls into question the testimony of this woman, simply because the article does not reference Disney's response to the problem. That is not "crystal clear logic".
I don't think calling an article "highly suspect" in any way calls into question the testimony of this woman. What it calls into question is how the writer of the article -- or the organization whose agenda the article was written to forward -- used that information.

It's entirely possible that what this woman said happened actually did happen. People are strange, and they do all sorts of strange things. But if a writer takes an isolated instance and turns it into a condemnation of the entire Disney organization as a whole, then that is wrong. The piece of info we don't have is whether or not the woman in question reported the incident and, if so, what Disney did or is doing about it. We also don't know if the writer of the article ever asked her that question.

As for skipping over the Jim Hill story, Jim Hill has been known to be somewhat of a tabloid-style guy -- jumping on "hot" stories only to apologize for errors or admit to printing unsubstantiated info a week later. Go through the stories on his site and you'll see many instances of alarmist articles, only to be followed by, "well ... I guess it wasn't as bad as I'd portrayed ... " type of things. So just because it's on Jim's site doesn't make it any more credible.

:earsboy:

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by WDSearcher
I don't think calling an article "highly suspect" in any way calls into question the testimony of this woman. What it calls into question is how the writer of the article -- or the organization whose agenda the article was written to forward -- used that information.
Except that the testimony is a major part of that report, and the implication seems to be being made that the entire story is made up. I agree that the writer has a point to make (call it an agenda if you will) but almost all of what we read in print or online from media traditional and nontraditional is like that these days.

It's entirely possible that what this woman said happened actually did happen. People are strange, and they do all sorts of strange things. But if a writer takes an isolated instance and turns it into a condemnation of the entire Disney organization as a whole, then that is wrong.
You and I might agree on this, and I am all for personal responsibility, but my understanding is that the law is clear - that an employer has the responsibility to ensure a harrassment-free workplace. My guess is that if the employer provides housing to employess, as Disney does, this extends to the housing area as well. I suppose colleges would have a similar issue - does anyone know the law in that regard?

This woman, if the story is indeed true, is probably telling her tale to the wrong people. I would be surprised if there is not money to be made in a lawsuit. (And I am NOT saying I personally would do that, but the fact remains.)

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by WDSearcher
[
As for skipping over the Jim Hill story, Jim Hill has been known to be somewhat of a tabloid-style guy -- jumping on "hot" stories only to apologize for errors or admit to printing unsubstantiated info a week later. Go through the stories on his site and you'll see many instances of alarmist articles, only to be followed by, "well ... I guess it wasn't as bad as I'd portrayed ... " type of things. So just because it's on Jim's site doesn't make it any more credible.

:earsboy:

OK let me see if get it yet...the first story can be dismissed...Jim Hills story can be dismissed...what about the other posters who rang in with some of the same complaints? Dismiss them as well?

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
OK let me see if get it yet...the first story can be dismissed...Jim Hills story can be dismissed...what about the other posters who rang in with some of the same complaints? Dismiss them as well?

I am not sure anyone is COMPLETELY dismissing the idea that incidents such as this may occur from time to time. THey are dismissing the premise of all these websites that DIsney is somehow responsible for the behavior of adult employees who are off the clock, regardless of whether they "live" on site or not.

[kathylovesdisneyworl]

Phoebesaturn, you tell us to check the article again because we are missing the fact that she reported the incident to the authorities. The article states she reported the underage drinking so she was protected if they were ever raided. That has nothing to do with her accusation of sexual harrasment.

I would like to know from someone in the program if Disney offered dorm like housing owned by the company. Not even sure then if they are respondsible for the actions of others outside the apartments.

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by kathylovesdisneyworl
Phoebesaturn, you tell us to check the article again because we are missing the fact that she reported the incident to the authorities. The article states she reported the underage drinking so she was protected if they were ever raided. That has nothing to do with her accusation of sexual harrasment.



Excelent non-reading of the stories...Go back read again...this time finish all the links and stories before you start typing. The first lady apparently according to people here (becuase its not in the article) did not report what happened to her. The second lady (Jim Hills) site did but got no response from secuirty. Then there is a third link where more people have posted their experince with the college program...some had a good time while others had some of the same bad experinces as the first two.

Of course Disney has some responabilty for actions taken in dorms they own and rent to people in their college program ...just as regular Colleges do. This inculdes incidents where illegal activites are going on and have been reported as in one case we know of. They also appear to foster the envoirment that these people are living under while at the program.

[kathylovesdisneyworl]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
Excelent non-reading of the stories...Go back read again...this time finish all the links and stories before you start typing. The first lady apparently according to people here (becuase its not in the article) did not report what happened to her. The second lady (Jim Hills) site did but got no response from secuirty. Then there is a third link where more people have posted their experince with the college program...some had a good time while others had some of the same bad experinces as the first two.

Of course Disney has some responabilty for actions taken in dorms they own and rent to people in their college program ...just as regular Colleges do. This inculdes incidents where illegal activites are going on and have been reported as in one case we know of. They also appear to foster the envoirment that these people are living under while at the program.

So sorry I misread your post. I thought your bold type was from the original article that you posted.

And as far as who is respondsible for the actions of people on the grounds, I still don't think it is Disney, just like any college. The college wouldn't be on trial for sexual harrasment, the guys would.

[Mikelly1221]

Ok, I'm going to ask it...is everyone dismissing this story because it's from a Christian writing on a Christian organization's website? What if it came from the Orlando Sentinel or some other "credible" source (I put credible in quotes not to discredit the Sentinel, but to show the fact that everyone can find SOME bias from all their sources). Would you automatically discount it then? I can believe her story, because it hasn't been that long since I was in college and witnessing the same types of things. Not the exposing, but the rest of it. If I were running the website that this story came from, and I found this story, you can bet I'd use it, because it furthers my agenda. But, that doesn't mean the story's not true.

BTW, CinderellaIam, your story about the woman coming up to you in the shoe store is horrible! I am a Christian, and I'd probably have to tell her to MYOB!

Back OT-the woman writing says she was in the apartment Disney put her in, with 5 other people (or 5 total, can't remember which). Former CP cast members: do you have to live where they tell you, or can you move? If she could move, then shame on her for not doing so. If not, maybe Disney needs at least to up their security and follow up on loud partying, just for disturbing the peace reasons, not to legislate how much people drink.

(Added later: OOPS! I forgot I wasn't on the Debate board!!! Sorry if I sound too argumentative!! Hopefully, this thread won't get moved just because I got lost!)

[Chuck S]

Actually, it would be a big stretch for me to refer to the FRC site as a "Christian" site.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by kathylovesdisneyworl
And as far as who is respondsible for the actions of people on the grounds, I still don't think it is Disney, just like any college. The college wouldn't be on trial for sexual harrasment, the guys would.
I'm not a lawyer, but I often pretend to be one in real life. :)

I finally decided to look around for some documentation on the liability of someone offering housing. After a few google searches (hit paydirt with "sexual harassment housing") I found out a few things:
1. Almost all states have sexual harassment guidelines in their Fair Housing laws, including Florida.
2. These guidelines indicate that the landlord is not only liable for their own personal conduct (of course) but also have an obligation to maintain an environment free of sexual harassment.
3. There are a number of cases where racial harassment suits were won by plaintiffs against both the harasser and their landlord. Presumably, the same could happen in sexual harassment cases, though I could find no examples in my searching.

Here's a nice quote from the Minnesota Fair Housing (http://www.humanrights.state.mn.us/sex_housing.html) web site (couldn't find anything succinct from Florida):

A landlord's obligations with respect to sexual harassment are in many ways similar to an employer's: in addition to not harassing his tenants, a landlord has an obligation to maintain an environment free of sexual harassment.

If a caretaker or another of the landlord's agents is harassing a tenant, the landlord is potentially liable. If one tenant is sexually harassing another, the landlord also has some obligation to do what he can. "If he doesn't do anything, it would be similar to an employer who has failed to pay attention to an employee's complaint of sexual harassment," says Department of Human Rights supervisor Gary Gorman. "The landlord could be violating the Human Rights Act, by creating a hostile environment for that tenant."

Also, at the FairHousing.com (http://www.fairhousing.com) archives, I found this old "clipping" from a Supreme Court ruling regarding schools and universities:

(Washington, May 26, 1999) The Supreme Court ruling that exposed schools to lawsuits for student-against-student sexual harassment is so narrowly defined that some legal experts say it may have limited impact in the courts, and even less effect on America's playgrounds.
School boards can be held liable, but only if officials deliberately ignored sexual harassment so severe and pervasive that it deprived a student of his or her right to an education, according to Monday's 5-4 high court ruling.
``This is a very high standard,'' said Catherine Fisk, a law professor at Loyola University in Los Angeles who has written extensively on sexual harassment. ``I don't think it is a big change in what most people thought the law was.''

So to wrap up a long post (sorry), the bottom line is Disney could, I would imagine, be held liable if it could be proved that they know about this behaviour (i.e. been told about it in the past, had other allegations in the past, etc.) and did not take measures to prevent it from continuing. However, that standard might be pretty hard to reach.

[Mikelly1221]

Chuck, I haven't been to that website, but I gathered from this discussion that James Dobson founded it. Did I get that wrong? Why wouldn't it be a Christian website? (Really not trying to be argumentative, just asking for clarification. :confused: )

[Chuck S]

Because it is a political website pushing James Dobson's agenda. Last I heard, James Dobson does not speak for ALL Christians. At least he certainly doesn't speak for this Christian, nor are his views endorsed and accepted by every "Christian" sect. Unless you have some "inside" information that he is the product of divine conception.

[Mikelly1221]

No inside info here, just curious. Thanks for the clarification.

[Cris]

I am not totally sure but I think Chatham, and the Commons are leased to Disney. So in theory, disney is the leasee.

[kathylovesdisneyworl]

Originally posted by rwodonnell



So to wrap up a long post (sorry), the bottom line is Disney could, I would imagine, be held liable if it could be proved that they know about this behaviour (i.e. been told about it in the past, had other allegations in the past, etc.) and did not take measures to prevent it from continuing. However, that standard might be pretty hard to reach. [/B]

Interesting research. I take this to say that legally they could possibly be held accountable but in reality would probably not . With all of those possiblys and probablys in that sentence I bet I could be a weather person.LOL

____________________________


from Cris
I am not totally sure but I think Chatham, and the Commons are leased to Disney. So in theory, disney is the leasee.
_____________________________

Thanks Cris.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
OK let me see if get it yet...the first story can be dismissed...Jim Hills story can be dismissed...what about the other posters who rang in with some of the same complaints? Dismiss them as well? I never said the first story can be dismissed. Those comments came from other people. And I didn't even say that Jim Hill's story can be dismissed. I simply said that putting a story on Jim's website doesn't make it any more credible than it was before it got there.

As for other posters with the same complaints, I still believe these are the exceptions and not the rule at WDW. There are literally thousands of college kids who go through the internship and fellowship programs every year, and we hear about a handful of partiers and harrassers. Go to any program out there where college kids all live in the same general area and you'll find that for every batch of kids, there are the hard-core partiers and people who don't belong. No group of college kids are going to instantly become model citizens simply because they're working at Disney. Disney can train them, they can provide housing and security, they can give them standards of conduct, they can work them so hard that they're dead tired at the end of the day. But if someone wants to get in trouble, they will. If someone wants to behave inappropriately, they will. When did accepting someone as an intern become a babysitting job? At 18 or 19 or 20 you are responsible for your own actions.

Disney's job here is to address and attempt to solve the problem once it's brought to their attention. What we don't know here is if it WAS brought to their attention. So ... to decry all of Disney for a series of problems that may have never even been reported in the first place seems unfair to me. IMO.

:earsboy:

[crusader]

Very well said WDSearcher.

Is there any information out there which follows up on this to let us know how it was actually handled?

[caseymaureen]

mikelly,
It is possible to change rooms, although it is a somewhat difficult process. You are originally assigned to room with whoever you happen to be in line with upon signing in for the program.
From personal experience, all of my roommates enjoyed going to parties, in and out of the complex, and none were ever disciplined. I do know people who were disciplined and who were fired from the program from partying. I did not change rooms, but I know a few people who did. Although from what I heard it was a lot of paperwork, it didn't take too long to actually be moved. It was mostly an issue of finding someone new to live with, because if you just moved randomly you could end up in a situation worse than you started with. There were a lot of parties in the complexes, and there were a lot of difficult people. Most of the people I met disliked at least one of their roommates, but most didn't think it was a big enough issue to move and leave the other roommate(s).
So, to sum it up: Yes, there are a lot of parties. Yes, you can be fired for it, although that doesn't happen too often. And Yes, you can change apartments, although most people choose not to.

[Phoebesaturn]

Yes, there are a lot of parties. Yes, you can be fired for it,


So Disney controls and fires people for this? Yet there are post after post of people here saying that Disney is not responsible for what happens in the Dorms...sure seems like they can be responsible when they want to.

[crusader]

Phoebesaturn:

Disney is responsible for how the company handles a situation like this (and possibly liable depending on the situation). They are certainly not responsible for how a person chooses to act.

[Chuck S]

Don't forget that "firing" people today for almost anything requires documentation. People have to be "warned" (often repeatedly) and there must be documentation of those warnings. Otherwise there is the threat of a wrongful termination suit and unemployment tax increases.

[RadioNate]

All I know is this - I'm a 3 time CP alumni.

Disney ternimates CP's living in thier apartment complexes (Cp do not live in dorms or dorm-like housing, they live in apartment complexes that disney either owns or leases for that use) that violate the rules. The CP signs a contract agreeing to Disney's rules. If you are caught violating them, you are sent home. Underage drinking is one of these rules.

I am confident enough and have enough first-hand knowledge of the college program to know that IF Disney was notified of sexual harrasment they would take action.

Disney does NOT promise room assignments, you can state your preference to have your own room but that doesn't mean it will be honored. It is possible to move. Over my three programs I had 5 roomates move. Four asked to be reassigned and one was asked to leave. It any case it was never really all that difficult.

Every negative CP story I read have things in common. One is that the writer "self terminates" and goes home early the other is that the writer feels that Disney "broke a promise" to them reguarding something about the program. The truth is CP is hard. It isn't all roses but living through it is half the fun. You are constantly tested and those who finish have a better understanding of who they are and who they want to be. Think of it as a real world boot camp.

Could this situation have happened at Disney, sure...at nearly any college campus in the US, you bet. Disney can only police what they are aware of and terminate the peole responsible. Disney does set forth guidelines for behavior, however it's up to the student to follow them. If they don't and are caught they will be terminated...Disney does not give second chances to CPs. Yes people violate the rules and don't get caught, just like in real life.

As for the original article, there are pleanty of people that this girl could have talked to to change her situation. You hardly get to your work location in 2 weeks on CP let alone know what it's all about.

As for the Jim Hill articles. Read the message board replies for ALL the CMCorner CP articles. There are so many holes in one of the articles it is nearly a work of fiction. I used to believe in Mr Hill until he published something that I knew way more about then he did and realized just how misinformed he could be.

alison

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by crusader
Phoebesaturn:

Disney is responsible for how the company handles a situation like this (and possibly liable depending on the situation). Great now we agree.

[dcentity2000]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
So Disney controls and fires people for this? Yet there are post after post of people here saying that Disney is not responsible for what happens in the Dorms...sure seems like they can be responsible when they want to.

Disney is responsible insofar as to provide adequate and safe accodation which lives up to or surpasses unambiguous representations made by itself. Individual behaviour of an employee has no effect on the company as far as liability goes, whilst if there is an intermediate entity governing a sector of said company subject to a problem then said entity may be liable as opposed to the parent company, unless Disney (the parent company) knew of their unsatisfactory actions :)



Rich::

[PKS44]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
Possibility 4: Disney was made aware of it, is addressing it in an ongoing manner, and the article does not address it because it is still unresolved or because they are unaware of what Disney's actions on the matter are.

In fact there are many more possibilities than exist in your simplistic model.

My problem is that you are calling the report "highly suspect", which calls into question the testimony of this woman, simply because the article does not reference Disney's response to the problem. That is not "crystal clear logic".

Also, regarding possibility one, as you outline them, I also fail to see how this woman's possible failure to report this to Disney results in your complete indifference to whether or not this occurred. Would you be so cavalier to someone who told a reporter they were raped? Are you aware of how many people do not report sexual assaults or harrassment right away? Most just try to remove themselves from the situation, because of fear, shame, or any number of natural (though undeserved) emotions. Reporting it later is not at all unusual.

I guess I just don't understand the indifference to this sort of story. Statements like "youth is wasted on the young" and "we are wasting our time" discussing this just mystify me.


and the fact that even your possibility 4 was not reported shows either that the reporter did not do the appropriate reporting or intentionally left that very important info out...I am not indifferent--I am outraged that organizations can put out lies and pretend to be some sort of model of decency and probity when they are actually a model of all that is wrong with the religious...I can't get concerned about a story from a deceitful hateful source.. the story is so blatantly ridiculous as presented that it has lost all credibility....If they reported that space aliens raped them it would be as believable. In short--the FRC is completely untrustworthy and their reporting of this story proves how untrustworthy they are...

Those who believe in the FRC can believe what they say...for those of us who actually require evidence before we have any confidence in the validity of something--- we find such stories hard to swallow...

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by PKS44
and the fact that even your possibility 4 was not reported shows either that the reporter did not do the appropriate reporting or intentionally left that very important info out...I am not indifferent--I am outraged that organizations can put out lies and pretend to be some sort of model of decency and probity when they are actually a model of all that is wrong with the religious...I can't get concerned about a story from a deceitful hateful source..
So which is it - you are outraged or you "can't get concerned"?
the story is so blatantly ridiculous as presented that it has lost all credibility....If they reported that space aliens raped them it would be as believable. In short--the FRC is completely untrustworthy and their reporting of this story proves how untrustworthy they are...
Exaggerate much? I think you're the one losing credibility. I don't think many here are saying the story is definitely true, but if you truly think that it is as unbelievable as your space aliens example, then you are living in a different world.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
So Disney controls and fires people for this? Yet there are post after post of people here saying that Disney is not responsible for what happens in the Dorms...sure seems like they can be responsible when they want to.
"Controls" is a strong word.

Disney, as any other company out there, has standards of conduct. CMs are made aware of these standards of conduct, and CPs sign a document saying that they will abide by the rules and follow the standards of conduct for working at WDW.

If a CPer or CM violates these standards or rules, they are terminated. However, as in real life, lots of people break the rules and are never caught.

Which brings us back to the original question / quandry ... did the woman in question ever take her concerns, particularly her claim that "Unexpectedly, the pair dropped their pants and proceeded to enact a sex act in front of us", to Disney. Did she speak to anyone at all about it? Did she file a complaint? Did she do anything at all to communicate to Disney or the CP management that this was happening.

If she DID take this to Disney and Disney did absolutely nothing -- no investigation, no punishment, no firings, nothing -- then Disney can be faulted for knowing about the situation and not addressing it. If, however, she terminated her employment with Disney without ever once mentioning that this happened to her, then I don't see how you can continue to say that Disney is irresponsible where this woman is concerned.

As for the partying and sex spoken of in the article, there is no way that Disney can police their CP cast 24 / 7 -- part of being on the College Program is to learn responsibility and get experience being out of school and into the world on your own. When I was 20 years old, I chose to party. When I was 25, I chose not to any more. But that doesn't mean that the college I went to was responsible for my ridiculous behavior when I was drunk. That was my fault and my responsibility. And my parents would have been appalled if I had in any way implied that it was my college's job to make sure I didn't drink when I wasn't supposed to or to make sure that I wasn't having sex in the swimming pool (which ... just for the record ... I never did ... :eek: ).

:earsboy:

[Mikelly1221]

Good summary WDSearcher!

[outstandinfarmer]

I am very religious and I'm even going to college to become a pastor, but I highly doubt this story. I think of James Dobson to be a pretty good guy, but I also know several homosexuals and none would act that way. The only way I could see them doing something like that (and still, a long shot) is if she was harassing them about their sexual preference. She was almost acting as if they were another species doing animalistic ritiuals.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by outstandinfarmer
I am very religious and I'm even going to college to become a pastor, but I highly doubt this story. I think of James Dobson to be a pretty good guy, but I also know several homosexuals and none would act that way. The only way I could see them doing something like that (and still, a long shot) is if she was harassing them about their sexual preference. She was almost acting as if they were another species doing animalistic ritiuals.
That's some tough logic to argue with. I change my mind, this couldn't have happened. And neither did any of the priest child molestation scandals. After all, I know a few and none of them would ever do that. For that matter, I think the Abu Ghraib thing is a whole lotta hogwash too, after all, I was in the military, and nobody I ever knew would do anything like that. None of my friends have ever raped, or murdered anyone, and almost none of them even vote Democrat. :) So I think it's a myth that those things exist.

I don't even know what to make of your last remark - I mean, really, call me a square, but if someone were to commit an indecent act (i.e. an act that ought to be reserved for privacy) in front of me, I might be a tad revolted.

[outstandinfarmer]

I don't even know what to make of your last remark - I mean, really, call me a square, but if someone were to commit an indecent act (i.e. an act that ought to be reserved for privacy) in front of me, I might be a tad revolted.

Well, of course, who wouldn't be?

That's some tough logic to argue with. I change my mind, this couldn't have happened. And neither did any of the priest child molestation scandals. After all, I know a few and none of them would ever do that. For that matter, I think the Abu Ghraib thing is a whole lotta hogwash too, after all, I was in the military, and nobody I ever knew would do anything like that. None of my friends have ever raped, or murdered anyone, and almost none of them even vote Democrat. So I think it's a myth that those things exist.

Just because bad things happen, doesn't mean that everytime you hear something bad it's necessarily true. Just because one girl says something happens, I don't need to believe right away. I also know how things can get blown out of proportion. When at one point the kids were making out by the pools, before you know it you are telling people that they are were having sex. I'm just not going to believe something that one person says. I would like to hear more stories about other people's experiences.

I do believe about the drinking and casual sex because I know that's how campuses can be, BUT sex all over the place in front of just everyone I find hard to believe.

[rwodonnell]

Originally posted by outstandinfarmer
Just because bad things happen, doesn't mean that everytime you hear something bad it's necessarily true. Just because one girl says something happens, I don't need to believe right away.
Of course. I personally don't know whether it's true or not (as I said in earlier posts.) I was taking issue with your logic. Your stated reason for not believing it was that you "know several homosexuals and none would act that way". I'm just saying that means nothing.

By the way, the story doesn't say there was "sex all over the place", it says an incident took place where two people intentionally performed for the girl who is making the claim.

[outstandinfarmer]

"A favorite spot for late night partying and sex--both heterosexual and homosexual--was around the apartment building's swimming pool," Terry said. "The pool Jacuzzi was a frequent locale for open sexual activity."

If it's happing at the pool and the jacuzzi, I seem to get the picture by what she's saying that it was happening all over the place.

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by outstandinfarmer
Well, of course, who wouldn't be? :wave:

[Sorry. Couldn't help myself. :teeth: ]

[Razor Roman]

After doing the Disney College Program, I did come away a bit more cynical about Disney then I was before I went - but it was more realizing that Disney was using us a cheap help, and not that they really cared what happened to us personally - but hey, they are a corporation.

I was never under the impression that I'd have my own room, and I lived with quite a mix of people. One of whom was gay, and in spite of the fact that I am very conservative, him and I became very good friends... in fact, he was far more tolerant of my views than many of my "friends" in my TV/Theater Major at college. He also helped me understand how hard it must be to have to deal with very religious, conservative parents who don't accept your lifestyle. I also lived across the hall from some girls who are mormons, and other than occasional ribbings about them all marrying the same guy one day, we were all tolerant of each other's differences.

Sure there was plenty of "debauchery" going on at Vista Way, but probably no more than the average college... it might have been a little more frequent because no one had to write any term papers! :-)

Like most have said, the College Program is what you make of it. But if you are really uptight, I would suggest bringing some friends down with you to live with!

[Phoebesaturn]

OK let me see if I got this straight yet...

Seems most of the people that have posted here that were in the program also have seen the parties, sex and lose moral values that the story writers suggest. They admit the dorm situation is not great.


Just curious if this is how Disney markets this program. Did you guys know going in that you may be stuck in rooms with homosexuals or otherwise unacceptable roommates with little to no recourse on moving? Did they mention the parties? The lose moral behavior? The pool make out sessions? The underage drinking? The nonexistent security? All of that now seems to be the norm based on these other posters with a varying degree of spin put on it...based on your personal beliefs. I don't know about you guys but when I think Disney College Program...the above is really not the picture I was getting in my head. Which is think is the overall point of the story.

[Chuck S]

Apparently people CAN change rooms, it simply takes a little time and patience, like everything else in life.

If you are not promised a "private room", why would you believe your room mate would not be from a different background/belief system than you are? Would you have any reason to expect that the other "college program" participants would not be adults with their OWN sets of beliefs or standards of behavior as varied as those in the general populace?

[Rence]

you may be stuck in rooms with homosexuals or otherwise unacceptable roommates

Phoebesaturn -- By the above statement are you saying that homosexuals are unacceptable roommates?

Now a homosexual who is loud and parties all the time may be unacceptable as would a heterosexual who behaved the same way.

A homosexual who engaged in inappropriate sexual activity in public areas within the apartment may be unacceptable as would a heterosexual who behaved the same way.

But just being homosexual would make a roommate unacceptable?

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
Just curious if this is how Disney markets this program. Did you guys know going in that you may be stuck in rooms with homosexuals or otherwise unacceptable roommates with little to no recourse on moving? Did they mention the parties? The lose moral behavior? The pool make out sessions? The underage drinking? The nonexistent security? All of that now seems to be the norm based on these other posters with a varying degree of spin put on it...based on your personal beliefs. I don't know about you guys but when I think Disney College Program...the above is really not the picture I was getting in my head. Which is think is the overall point of the story. What I took from most of the posters is that it sounds like the behavior is not much different than that at their colleges. I don't remember my college promising me certain roommates, or warning me about parties, makeout sessions or loose moral behavior.

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by Rence

But just being homosexual would make a roommate unacceptable?

For some people yes. I'm not sure if you know this or not but there is a huge segment of society that is not running with open arms to accepting the homosexual life style. Some still consider it gasp....wrong. :eek:



What I took from most of the posters is that it sounds like the behavior is not much different than that at their colleges. I don't remember my college promising me certain roommates, or warning me about parties, makeout sessions or loose moral behavior.


Well again...to say this is what happens at all colleges is at best a lie. It may be the norm at historic party schools or in parts at larger colleges. That being said....Disney is not Chico State. It never has as far as I know..(up until recent events) been known as a company that tolerates, supports, allows to happen, endorses or turns a blind eye (whatever you view of it is) to this sort of behavior. Or did you guys get a different set of family values from movies like Bambi? I'm pretty sure the idea behind Disneyland and Disneyworld was not to provide a minimum wage job during the day and a place to make out and get into heavy petting by the pool after work. I mean is this really the current view of Disney? Has this become acceptable as just the current Disney?

[Rence]

But just being homosexual would make a roommate unacceptable?

For some people yes. I'm not sure if you know this or not but there is a huge segment of society that is not running with open arms to accepting the homosexual life style

What about people that have a problem with Blacks, Christians, Republicans, LIberals or any group of people. Should an organization such as Disney support these prejudices by allowing a participant to deam a class of roommates as "Unacceptable"?

Not talking about behavior. If what was reported in the original story actually happened, it should have been reported to Disney and to the police. But that story concerned two specific homosexuals and not homosexuals in general. I can cite a lot of deplorable acts performed by heterosexuals but that does not mean that heterosexuals as a class should be condemed for the behavior of a few.

If a person is not ready to deal with a diverse group of people (gays, Christians, minorities, etc.) then perhaps a person should not apply for the Disney World College Intern program in the first place. Disney is an equal opportunity employer who does not discriminate on a number of factors including sexual orientation. If one does not care to be around "those sorts of people" then perhaps one should not apply at Disney.

[katerkat]

Originally posted by DancingBear
What I took from most of the posters is that it sounds like the behavior is not much different than that at their colleges. I don't remember my college promising me certain roommates, or warning me about parties, makeout sessions or loose moral behavior.

Wow. I popped in here because I was bored, and look what I found! I'm a former CPer, and I agee with the above. No, Disney never told me about the partying. Neither did my college when I applied. I did research on both and learned about the party atmosphere.

And how on earth did I miss these sex sessions by the pool?? My apartment was right by the pool and I never got/saw any action there!

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by Rence
Disney is an equal opportunity employer who does not discriminate on a number of factors including sexual orientation. If one does not care to be around "those sorts of people" then perhaps one should not apply at Disney.

One does not have to accept a life style inorder to serve them a coke. There is a huge difference with serving someone a coke and living with that person.

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by katerkat
I did research on both and learned about the party atmosphere.



What about Disney made you research them in refrence to the party Atmosphere? I'm missing where Disney opening or corvertly protrays that image ( at least in the past) where anyone would think that reasearch was needed to find out if they need to worry about that sort of thing.

[katerkat]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
What about Disney made you research them in refrence to the party Atmosphere? I'm missing where Disney opening or corvertly protrays that image ( at least in the past) where anyone would think that reasearch was needed to find out if they need to worry about that sort of thing.

I did not research them in reference to the party atmosphere. I researched them in general, just as I did for my college and most other things I do in life. In my GENERAL research, I learned about the party atmosphere.

[brunoflipper]

Lock this thread... this is asinine

[Rence]

One does not have to accept a life style inorder to serve them a coke. There is a huge difference with serving someone a coke and living with that person.

So institutions that provide housing, such as the Disney intern program, colleges etc. should accomodate individual prejudices? How far does this go?

So a person in the Disney intern program should not have to room with a homosexual if they don't like them. What if they don't like hispanics? What if they don't like Catholics? What if they don't like Democrats?

Phoebesaturn
Its all well and good that some people do not care for homosexuals. From your posts, I presume that you are one of them. That is your right. But why should Disney be called upon to enforce these prejudices?

If one does not care to room with homosexuals then one does not need to enroll in a program where roommates are assigned. Especially when the organization assigning the roommates has a non-discrimination policy that states that they do not discriminate against the people that you wish to discriminate against?


If it is your home and you are taking in a lodger than by all means set whatever criteria you wish. But do not be upset when Disney does not choose to use the same criteria.

[Sarangel]

Gentlebeings, I'm afraid that this thread has strayed from the original discussion, i.e. how this affects Disney as a company. Kindly stay focused and discontinue discussions of discrimination, etc or I will be forced to move this to the debate board.

Sarangel

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
OK let me see if I got this straight yet... Seems most of the people that have posted here that were in the program also have seen the parties, sex and lose moral values that the story writers suggest. They admit the dorm situation is not great.

Just curious if this is how Disney markets this program. Did you guys know going in that you may be stuck in rooms with homosexuals or otherwise unacceptable roommates with little to no recourse on moving? Did they mention the parties? The lose moral behavior? The pool make out sessions? The underage drinking? The nonexistent security? All of that now seems to be the norm based on these other posters with a varying degree of spin put on it...based on your personal beliefs. I don't know about you guys but when I think Disney College Program...the above is really not the picture I was getting in my head. Which is think is the overall point of the story.
Actually ... no. I don't think you do have this straight yet. But that's just my opinion.

There are maybe six people here talking about their personal experiences in the CP, and so now that's an accurate sample? There are thousands of college students who do this program every year. You might want to consider that before accepting these comments as "the norm."

And, even though I know you're just being argumentative, no ... Disney does not "market" the CP program as you mentioned. Did your college or internship program? I'll bet the same activities listed above were taking place there.

As for your questions, I think it's actually against the law to tell people in a brochure, "You may have to room with a homosexual." And I'm sure most of the people who end up being "otherwise unacceptable roommates" don't put that on their application or come across that way in the interview. And, while moving to a different room may be difficult, it is not impossible. As for parties, "loose moral behavior," pool make-out sessions and the like, I would imagine that any program where a large group of 18-25-year-olds are present would include the same elements. Again ... college kids don't turn into model citizens simply by stepping on Disney property. If, however, that is what you envision when you think of the Disney CP, then perhaps the misconception is yours?

:earsboy:

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by brunoflipper
Lock this thread... this is asinine

Run for the hills...brunoflipper has demanded action! :rolleyes:



WDSearcher - According to one poster it appreantly is the norm and found so in doing " reaserch" before hand. So now we have Disney that was once known for faimly values now apparently known as the "College Intern Party and Grope Center". Dinsey sure has come a long way.


Rence - Personaly I could care less if someone is gay...however again there is a huge segment of society that do...and do not wish to have that lifestyle trust upon them much less live with them. I personaly don't think that you should be required to room with anyone that you don't want to. I therefore would never put myself in one of these situations. I guess these are the scarifices one must make to be part of the Disney Intern Party and Grope Center though.


Like I said not the Disney I grew up with.

[katerkat]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
WDSearcher - According to one poster it appreantly is the norm and found so in doing " reaserch" before hand. So now we have Disney that was once known for faimly values now apparently known as the "College Intern Party and Grope Center". Dinsey sure has come a long way.

I said the PARTY atmosphere is the norm. Not the groping. I was there for more than three months and I never got groped. Never saw anyone having sex - by the pool or otherwise. We never once had a party in our apartment because some of our roommates preferred that we didn't. (Including myself.) The parties I went to had underage drinking, yes - but so did the ones I went to in college. And the parties weren't ever out of control - if so, the guards would have been called, and I never saw that happen.

Besides, there are college interns all over Disney World. Did you ever know, before this article, that there was a lot of partying? We weren't idiots - we didn't do anything that would affect our jobs. What we do on our off-hours doesn't affect Disney, unless it affects our job performance.

[RadioNate]

edited because I decided that I don't want to participate in this "discussion".


it's the old if you don't have anything nice to say approach.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by katerkat
I said the PARTY atmosphere is the norm. Not the groping. I was there for more than three months and I never got groped. Never saw anyone having sex - by the pool or otherwise. We never once had a party in our apartment because some of our roommates preferred that we didn't. (Including myself.) The parties I went to had underage drinking, yes - but so did the ones I went to in college. And the parties weren't ever out of control - if so, the guards would have been called, and I never saw that happen.

Besides, there are college interns all over Disney World. Did you ever know, before this article, that there was a lot of partying? We weren't idiots - we didn't do anything that would affect our jobs. What we do on our off-hours doesn't affect Disney, unless it affects our job performance.
Thanks for that, katerkat! I simply find it impossible to believe that if the behavior that Phoebesaturn seems so convinced is rampant at WDW, that the internship program wouldn't have been investigated and shut down by now. That there wouldn't have been scores of articles about how Disney values have plummeted at The Commons. That there wouldn't have been groups of protesting parents refusing to let their kids participate in the program. Or, at the very least, that there wouldn't be some sort of special "party hardy" notation about the Disney CP in "The Best Party Colleges" book series.

Thank you for providing us a view from the other side!

:earsboy:

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
WDSearcher - According to one poster it appreantly is the norm and found so in doing " reaserch" before hand. So now we have Disney that was once known for faimly values now apparently known as the "College Intern Party and Grope Center". Dinsey sure has come a long way. Again with the "one poster" thing. As I said, you've got an incredibly small sample here that you're assuming speaks for everyone in the College Program. To say that Disney is "apparently known as the 'College Intern Party and Grope Center'", simply because a half-dozen people have viewed it as such, is a vast, unfair, skewed generalization. Again ... if you truly believed that putting thousands of college kids together in a living and working situation was going to be all mid-town America, with nary a hint of distress or misbehavior simply because they were on Disney property, then perhaps your perceptions were a bit unrealistic and a little naive.

Disney's job is not to babysit these young adults and force them to behave. But it seems as though you are putting absolutely no responsibility for misconduct on the people who are actually behaving badly. Aren't the kids making out in the swimming pool, drinking when they shouldn't be, and partying too far into the night at all responsible for their own behavior? Or is it Disney's bad influence that has caused these otherwise delightful, straight-laced and orderly young adults to go to the dark side?

:earsboy:

[kathylovesdisneyworl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
[B]

_________________________________________

Well again...to say this is what happens at all colleges is at best a lie. It may be the norm at historic party schools or in parts at larger colleges.

__________________________________________

I do not know if you have any kids in college or have gone recently yourself, but I know from my experience with my kids this is most certainly not the exception. The list of "historic party schools" should be changed to the ones that aren't. It is the shorter of the list. Between a wide range of friends all attending different schools around the county, it seems that most schools are the same. Large amounts of young adults means lots of fun and drinking. Drinking brings along behavior that is very extreme. It seems that the Disney program is not different then most others, except Disney gets cheap labor out of the deal.

[caseymaureen]

To head back towards the original post, as Sarangel requested...

I do not feel that the behavior in the article at all reflects on Disney's standards as a corporation or cultural icon. If these things were occuring on Main Street in the Magic Kingdom, while these people were being paid to work, then this would be an issue. The things in the article do not affect how these people do their jobs, which is what they are there to do. Whether you agree with the views expressed by the author, or believe the author at all doesn't have much to do with it. Disney has little or no control over what people do in their time off, and this includes sexual preference, drinking, partying, what have you. And they should not have this control over their employees. Last time I checked, most people have lives outside of their workplaces. The apartment complexes have rules, as do most other apartment complexes in the country. There are standards which must be upheld to live there; this has nothing to do with their employment.
If you get fired you have to leave the complex, and if you break the rules of the apartment you get fired. This is simple to explain, because this is the only place that CPs can live, so if you don't uphold the standards you will have nowhere to live. You can't live there if you aren't in the CP because it's an exclusive community. It's not because Disney is controlling the students' lives, it's because of the exclusivity of the community and the agreement between Disney and the management company.
It's sad that the homosexuality and the partying have become such sticking points, as these are things that people do outside of work and that usually do not affect a person's work performance. Disney as you know it, the Disney of Bambi and Disneyland, is the face the company shows to the public. If you don't think that any of those animators, or cast members, or even Walt himself did things that didn't fit with that public Disney image, then I feel that you're most likely mistaken. No one is perfect, and I can say from experience, college students especially are not perfect. That's what the learning, growing up, and maturing are for.

[rocketriter]

I don't believe it. A couple of well-placed complaints would have put a stop to this immediately. Instead we have a right-wing story, complete with the assumption that Disney-employed homosexuals taunt heterosexuals and behave in a depraved manner. It's just too canned to believe. (And the banner below the story doesn't make it any more convincing.)

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by rocketriter
Instead we have a right-wing story, complete with the assumption that Disney-employed homosexuals taunt heterosexuals and behave in a depraved manner.

Yeah, that would NEVER happen....:rolleyes:

Ever see a gay pride parade?

I have no idea if it is true or not. But your prejudiced dismissal is no better than someone making up a story such as this in order to bash one group or another.

[Gillian]

I've researched the college program a bit, both here on the DIS and on the internet. What I found was a lot of first hand reports about partying and roommate problems. The stories posted here don't surprise me.

College dorms have security, in the form of RAs. The Disney college program apartments don't have anything. They have rules but no one to enforce them, unless someone complains. I'm sure a lot of people don't complain because they don't want to have their roommates hate them, or because they want to try to stick it out.

I think it's a great program, if you can handle it.

[snappyjo]

Originally posted by Paul G
Sounds like fun - where do I sign up? Do they take 44 year olds?

Its true - youth is wasted on the young!

I am not homosexual (married with 2 daughters) but from what I have read about the FRC its a hateful organization that is out to demonize homosexuality.

I don't think you need FRC to demonize homosexualty, I think they gays do a good job of it themselves.

[Rence]

I don't think you need FRC to demonize homosexualty, I think they gays do a good job of it themselves

How does one respond to such close-minded bigotry?

[dcentity2000]

Originally posted by Rence
How does one respond to such close-minded bigotry?

Um...

Dancing :teeth: Send in a video and we'll all watch :)



Rich::

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by Rence
How does one respond to such close-minded bigotry?

Just convince yourself that people are" born that way".

[caseymaureen]

Gillian,
There are RAs on the CP, they are advanced internship students whose job it is to work at the desks in the "community hall" type building, and to supervise their residents. They aren't called RAs, it's some other initials, but same idea. My RA was very involved, frequently visiting and calling to check up on us. Some people told me that they never saw their RAs so I guess it was kind of hit or miss. In addition to the RAs there was a large security force constantly guarding the entrances and patrolling the compound. There are people there to enforce the rules, but since most people try to hide when they are breaking rules and some apparently don't speak up when it happens, they have no real way of knowing.

[wdwdvcdad]

disagreeing with someones actions does not make one a bigot. Accepting anythin that anyone does as ok makes one a fool. Let's not be so quick to condemn someone because of a deeply personal, often religious belief. Those who believe homosexuality is immoral have as much to a right to their opinion as those who feel they are immoral for having the opinion.

[kozmo]

I have been to Vista Way,and i was shocked to read the article written,my little mother and i have visited my nephew on numorous occasions and until Curfew,we thought security was great and in all never saw anything out of the norm,never saw anyone at the pool ,not more than a couple of people at a time anyways,most are usually working and on their days off ,they are out and about ,this was on a 2 week basis.I am so sorry the girl had such a bad experience,she should have told security,maybe moved to another building,such a shame.I found it to be a very positive experience for young people and i want to do it to,i will room with the 44 yr old!!!!!

[PeterPan20]

Originally posted by wdwdvcdad
disagreeing with someones actions does not make one a bigot. Accepting anythin that anyone does as ok makes one a fool. Let's not be so quick to condemn someone because of a deeply personal, often religious belief. Those who believe homosexuality is immoral have as much to a right to their opinion as those who feel they are immoral for having the opinion.

I don't mean to be nit-picky, but didn't you just disprove your own point? If a person is not allowed to "condemn" another person for their beliefs, then this person should not be condemning a whole group of people for theirs.

It just comes down to what I always say:

Them darn GAYS will getcha every time! ;)

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by PeterPan20
I don't mean to be nit-picky, but didn't you just disprove your own point? If a person is not allowed to "condemn" another person for their beliefs, then this person should not be condemning a whole group of people for theirs.

It just comes down to what I always say:

Them darn GAYS will getcha every time! ;)

you can be nit-picky all you want. But, no I did not disprove my own point. my point was, that believing that something is right or wrong becasue of deeply held beliefs does not make one a bigot. neither does condemning the action because of those moral beliefs. unfairly imposing one's morality on others and denying rights guaranteed under the constitution does.

We all judge, based on upbringing, experience, and faith (or lack thereof). disaproving of an act or action is a natural thing that everyone does. doing so is not bigoted, it is human.

[Sarangel]

This has devolved into name calling & re-iteration of the same points. I suggest we all move on...

Sarangel